[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Whatever the case is for an octave on the third course (and to me it seems so very slim as to be negligible compared with all the evidence - other than our modern expectations of course) bear in mind the tensile strength of gut. An instrument with a string length of 69cm, say, would struggle to get up to g' at a tone under modern pitch. Whatever the 'historical' pitch it also seems clear that guitars were generally not tuned so near to breaking stress as lutes so a safety margin of a further tone is appropriate. In short, you'd need to tune a major third below modern to reasonably employ an octave third. This is, of course, one of the principal cases against an octave on the third course. M --- On Mon, 22/11/10, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 23:25 Thanks for the blessing of sorts... discretion being in the eye of the beholder and all that. Well then, I think it's either put a bordon on the D string, or sneak the upper octave G into my fingering for those passages. It's not a technical problem to accomplish either. What strikes me as so odd is that this is the only Sanz piece I found so far that causes any serious problems. I did play for a real Baroque guitarist (as opposed to myself -- an amateur) who suggested I try the French stringing, and who echoed your statement that Sanz is not writing anything in stone about stringing the instrument. But in general I like having the G as the lowest note for this music. cud __ From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 2:22:36 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? That is why some people do argue that octave stringing on the 3rd course is intended. Gordon Ferries plays it on his CD with the re-entrant tuning. It works after a fashion but it is not the best track. I think the point is that Sanz doesn't explicitly say that all his music is intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. All he really doing is generally saying which tuning he thinks works best for which type of music. I think you can exercise a bit of discretion in these matters. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Fuga Primera, por primer Tono al ayre Espanyol, the open G string in measures (counting from the tablaltura, and not counting the notated theme): 5 19 23 25 (Note the open G in 24 is not a problem, even though its leading is very similar) In these cases, I simply cannot hear a logical leading into the lower G... to my ear it desperately wants the upper octave G. I can play that upper octave on the E string, but that's not how it's written. There are other instances of ambiguous leading in this piece (and many others) where either octave could make sense. In those cases the lower octave is not a problem for me, and I find a careful emphasis makes those notes settle perfectly well into the piece. But these cited cases just don't work for me, no matter how hard I try to hear it. So far this is the only piece that troubles me in the Sanz books. But it really troubles me... I love it and want to fully understand it. Some people have suggested there's evidence that Sanz approved of and possibly used an octave-strung G course. I'm not convinced -- Anyway, that just pushes the whole issue onto another course and really doesn't help solve this raging argument about stringing/playing the guitar. Any advice you can offer on this piece is quite welcome! Cheers cud __ From: Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [5]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 11:29:50 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Which fugue is it? Monica - Original Message -
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
I'm also skeptical of an octave G, if for no other reason than the fact that Sanz simply doesn't mention it. He takes pains to say that if you want to sound like the fashionable players of the time, then you should use such-and-such a stringing. He never mentions, And if you *really* want to sound good, use an octave on the G or anything of the kind. In fact, I'm not aware of anybody mentioning an octave on the G (please correct me if I'm wrong). On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with taking discrete liberties with the written score, and playing the higher G when it feels necessary. I think statistically speaking, if you put the burden (no pun intended) on the G course, rather that bordones on the D and/or A, you will find fewer cases where you wish for an octave other than the one the strings sound -- with Sanz at least. (Can I get an honorary degree if I prove that point?) And further, if you strike the strings equally with your thumb, I think all agree (except perhaps Lex) that the lower octave will dominate the sensation of what you hear... biology of the ear, more mass in the bordon producing more pressure in the air. So I personally don't believe adding a bordon to the G is worth the cost of fine-tuning my technique so I can choose which octave I want to emphasize. Technically, it's easier to grab the higher-octave G on a different string when I can't live without it. That said, it's curious to find passages in Sanz that could easily be played with the G', yet are written for the lower octave. I think that's a clue to how differently music was heard at the time. Take measure 2 of the second line in Passacalles sobre la D con muchas Diferencias. Why is that G a lower octave? Bordones on the D string clearly don't solve anything there. There's no problem either playing the G' on the E string, or arranging a campanela that's identical to the campanela in the 4th to the last measire of the piece. Given the velocity of the passage, either alternative is well within technical reach. But that's not his choice. Interesting stuff... cud __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 5:15:03 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Whatever the case is for an octave on the third course (and to me it seems so very slim as to be negligible compared with all the evidence - other than our modern expectations of course) bear in mind the tensile strength of gut. An instrument with a string length of 69cm, say, would struggle to get up to g' at a tone under modern pitch. Whatever the 'historical' pitch it also seems clear that guitars were generally not tuned so near to breaking stress as lutes so a safety margin of a further tone is appropriate. In short, you'd need to tune a major third below modern to reasonably employ an octave third. This is, of course, one of the principal cases against an octave on the third course. M --- On Mon, 22/11/10, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 23:25 Thanks for the blessing of sorts... discretion being in the eye of the beholder and all that. Well then, I think it's either put a bordon on the D string, or sneak the upper octave G into my fingering for those passages. It's not a technical problem to accomplish either. What strikes me as so odd is that this is the only Sanz piece I found so far that causes any serious problems. I did play for a real Baroque guitarist (as opposed to myself -- an amateur) who suggested I try the French stringing, and who echoed your statement that Sanz is not writing anything in stone about stringing the instrument. But in general I like having the G as the lowest note for this music. cud __ From: Monica Hall [1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [2][6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3][7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 2:22:36 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? That is why some people do argue that octave
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
1/ Is 69 cm an usual diapason for early (around 1650) guitar: Koch is 61 cm or so, first generation of Voboam rather 65, Tessler is short too. Longer diapason is more common on later guitars or guitar `a la capucine, with a deeper body (lower tuning?) 2/ the Carbonchi Ms H72 in Perugia clearly says that the common guitar has his 3rd string tuned on the 6th course of the lute (g?) and the 5th key of the harpsichord (from C eg G). His guitar is tuned in D instead of E, almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions. Plus the 4th course octave (F) on the lutes is more or less the same problem (what would you say about Frei and Maler instruments, with around 65cm diapason or more, at Venice pitch ?) So... But I agree there is no convincing evidence in the texts in favour of an octave on the G. It just sounds very well on my instrument, all in gut (Koch copy), with complete reetrant tuning. And surely it doesn't work for de Visee, nor the guitar! But even Corbetta before the guitare royale and Bartolotti sounds quite well like that, with convincing campanellas and not much gaps as 7th or 9th (specially with the g octave, but it's not my main reason to like this tuning). I only would like to have 3 guitars , with their own stringing, to play more music! __ De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 11h 15min 03s Objet : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Whatever the case is for an octave on the third course (and to me it seems so very slim as to be negligible compared with all the evidence - other than our modern expectations of course) bear in mind the tensile strength of gut. An instrument with a string length of 69cm, say, would struggle to get up to g' at a tone under modern pitch. Whatever the 'historical' pitch it also seems clear that guitars were generally not tuned so near to breaking stress as lutes so a safety margin of a further tone is appropriate. In short, you'd need to tune a major third below modern to reasonably employ an octave third. This is, of course, one of the principal cases against an octave on the third course. M --- On Mon, 22/11/10, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 23:25 Thanks for the blessing of sorts... discretion being in the eye of the beholder and all that. Well then, I think it's either put a bordon on the D string, or sneak the upper octave G into my fingering for those passages. It's not a technical problem to accomplish either. What strikes me as so odd is that this is the only Sanz piece I found so far that causes any serious problems. I did play for a real Baroque guitarist (as opposed to myself -- an amateur) who suggested I try the French stringing, and who echoed your statement that Sanz is not writing anything in stone about stringing the instrument. But in general I like having the G as the lowest note for this music. cud __ From: Monica Hall [1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [2][6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3][7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 2:22:36 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? That is why some people do argue that octave stringing on the 3rd course is intended. Gordon Ferries plays it on his CD with the re-entrant tuning. It works after a fashion but it is not the best track. I think the point is that Sanz doesn't explicitly say that all his music is intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. All he really doing is generally saying which tuning he thinks works best for which type of music. I think you can exercise a bit of discretion in these matters. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
You write that 'almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions'. However, I am far less confident that we can say much about what absolute pitch standard these instruments were tuned to (which is why I tried to avoid it). But certainly a smaller instrument would have allowed a generally higher nominal pitch which would have made up for the deficiences in the bass register resulting from the shorter string length. But then you still end up with the problem of the third course exceeding the breaking stress - but just now at a generally higher pitch! MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:04 1/ Is 69 cm an usual diapason for early (around 1650) guitar: Koch is 61 cm or so, first generation of Voboam rather 65, Tessler is short too. Longer diapason is more common on later guitars or guitar `a la capucine, with a deeper body (lower tuning?) 2/ the Carbonchi Ms H72 in Perugia clearly says that the common guitar has his 3rd string tuned on the 6th course of the lute (g?) and the 5th key of the harpsichord (from C eg G). His guitar is tuned in D instead of E, almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions. Plus the 4th course octave (F) on the lutes is more or less the same problem (what would you say about Frei and Maler instruments, with around 65cm diapason or more, at Venice pitch ?) So... But I agree there is no convincing evidence in the texts in favour of an octave on the G. It just sounds very well on my instrument, all in gut (Koch copy), with complete reetrant tuning. And surely it doesn't work for de Visee, nor the guitar! But even Corbetta before the guitare royale and Bartolotti sounds quite well like that, with convincing campanellas and not much gaps as 7th or 9th (specially with the g octave, but it's not my main reason to like this tuning). I only would like to have 3 guitars , with their own stringing, to play more music! __ De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 11h 15min 03s Objet : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Whatever the case is for an octave on the third course (and to me it seems so very slim as to be negligible compared with all the evidence - other than our modern expectations of course) bear in mind the tensile strength of gut. An instrument with a string length of 69cm, say, would struggle to get up to g' at a tone under modern pitch. Whatever the 'historical' pitch it also seems clear that guitars were generally not tuned so near to breaking stress as lutes so a safety margin of a further tone is appropriate. In short, you'd need to tune a major third below modern to reasonably employ an octave third. This is, of course, one of the principal cases against an octave on the third course. M --- On Mon, 22/11/10, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 23:25 Thanks for the blessing of sorts... discretion being in the eye of the beholder and all that. Well then, I think it's either put a bordon on the D string, or sneak the upper octave G into my fingering for those passages. It's not a technical problem to accomplish either. What strikes me as so odd is that this is the only Sanz piece I found so far that causes any serious problems. I did play for a real Baroque guitarist (as opposed to myself -- an amateur) who suggested I try the French stringing, and who echoed your statement that Sanz is not writing anything in stone about stringing the instrument. But in general I like having the G as the lowest note for this music. cud __ From: Monica Hall [1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [2][6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Carbonchi's instruction are for ensemble music (guitar in D). And about pitches, specificaly in XVIIth century in Italy, many papers of high scholarship had been written for years (inc. hauts et bas instruments): no use to have a debate here I think. But I agree ensemble pitches and solo pitches are not necesseraly coherent. So why do you use a 440 pitch to tune your guitar? With lower pitch, which is at least likely, other stringings are possible (personally for me 415 is a good one for Roman and middle Italy music). And again I have no problem with a high g gut string. (0;38 mm) Anyway, your choice is quite understandable: I'm just not quite happy for the moment with g in unison on my guitar (which is a very good one) with no bourdon on the 4th: this tuning is also very enjoyable. __ De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 15h 22min 53s Objet : Re: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? You write that 'almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions'. However, I am far less confident that we can say much about what absolute pitch standard these instruments were tuned to (which is why I tried to avoid it). But certainly a smaller instrument would have allowed a generally higher nominal pitch which would have made up for the deficiences in the bass register resulting from the shorter string length. But then you still end up with the problem of the third course exceeding the breaking stress - but just now at a generally higher pitch! MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:04 1/ Is 69 cm an usual diapason for early (around 1650) guitar: Koch is 61 cm or so, first generation of Voboam rather 65, Tessler is short too. Longer diapason is more common on later guitars or guitar `a la capucine, with a deeper body (lower tuning?) 2/ the Carbonchi Ms H72 in Perugia clearly says that the common guitar has his 3rd string tuned on the 6th course of the lute (g?) and the 5th key of the harpsichord (from C eg G). His guitar is tuned in D instead of E, almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions. Plus the 4th course octave (F) on the lutes is more or less the same problem (what would you say about Frei and Maler instruments, with around 65cm diapason or more, at Venice pitch ?) So... But I agree there is no convincing evidence in the texts in favour of an octave on the G. It just sounds very well on my instrument, all in gut (Koch copy), with complete reetrant tuning. And surely it doesn't work for de Visee, nor the guitar! But even Corbetta before the guitare royale and Bartolotti sounds quite well like that, with convincing campanellas and not much gaps as 7th or 9th (specially with the g octave, but it's not my main reason to like this tuning). I only would like to have 3 guitars , with their own stringing, to play more music! __ De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 11h 15min 03s Objet : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Whatever the case is for an octave on the third course (and to me it seems so very slim as to be negligible compared with all the evidence - other than our modern expectations of course) bear in mind the tensile strength of gut. An instrument with a string length of 69cm, say, would struggle to get up to g' at a tone under modern pitch. Whatever the 'historical' pitch it also seems clear that guitars were generally not tuned so near to breaking stress as lutes so a safety margin of a further tone is appropriate. In short, you'd need to tune a major third below modern to reasonably employ an octave third. This is, of course, one of the principal cases against an octave on the third course. M --- On Mon, 22/11/10, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Well, this is not quite correct. The original string length of surviving guitars by Rene / Alexandre / Jean Voboam would be somewhere between 69 - 71 cm. Most of them were converted to shorter string lengths (sometime between 1730 - early 19th century) by shortening of the neck and / or moving the bridge towards the sound hole or both. There are a few surviving French guitars, shortly preceding the Voboam's generation (Dumesnil for example), with 66 - 67cm SL but certainly not less than that. The sting length of most surviving Italian-made guitars in the period between 1630 - 1670 is even longer, at c. 71 - 73 cm. Again, there is a shorter SL category here too (64 - 66 cm), to which, as it seems, both the Koch (currently 64cm) and Tessler guitars belong (Tesler certainly had its neck being shortened, Koch very likely too). SL seems to begin to drop from early 18th century on (when it hardly exceeds 64 - 65 cm), quite possibly because of the increasing use of wound strings. I quite agree with Martyn that the use of an octave on the third course is a bit of an overkill with all-gut stringing, whatever SL is there. And lets not forget that the main purpose of octave stringing in olden times was to enhance the sound of dull-sounding thick gut strings, which would be hardly necessary on under 1.0 mm thick third course. Alexander On 23/11/2010 14:04, jean-michel Catherinot wrote: 1/ Is 69 cm an usual diapason for early (around 1650) guitar: Koch is 61 cm or so, first generation of Voboam rather 65, Tessler is short too. Longer diapason is more common on later guitars or guitar `a la capucine, with a deeper body (lower tuning?) .. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
On 23/11/2010 22:08, Alexander Batov wrote: I quite agree with Martyn that the use of an octave on the third course is a bit of an overkill with all-gut stringing, whatever SL is there. And lets not forget that the main purpose of octave stringing in olden times was to enhance the sound of dull-sounding thick gut strings But - as usual - the Baroque guitar seems to be different from other plucked instruments of the time in that the low string and the octave above it are positioned in reverse from the norm. On lutes (etc) , on the lower courses with octaves, the thumb hits the low note first (presumably with gut, a bit of dull sound) and then the octave above which gives the overall bass sound more focus. But - probably universally today - Baroque guitarists set up guitars so that when the thumb hits the low course(s) the high octave sounds first and then the thumb hits the bass. I think the actual evidence from the time is minute - something in Stradivarius and ? at most a couple of other things? (Plus something much later? Merchi? - when the bass notes are unambiguously bass notes anyway) Of course, every one is setting up their guitars in this way to get campanellas and to try and make more sense of the music. But that's quite different from merely enhancing the sound of dull-sounding thick gut strings. Stuart , which would be hardly necessary on under 1.0 mm thick third course. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
But - as usual - the Baroque guitar seems to be different from other plucked instruments of the time in that the low string and the octave above it are positioned in reverse from the norm. On lutes (etc) , on the lower courses with octaves, the thumb hits the low note first (presumably with gut, a bit of dull sound) and then the octave above which gives the overall bass sound more focus. But - probably universally today - Baroque guitarists set up guitars so that when the thumb hits the low course(s) the high octave sounds first and then the thumb hits the bass. It could well be that in the time of Amat, Monesardo, Sanseverino, and, who knows, Foscarini, the same setup as we know it from the lute was used. First the low and then the octave string. The first book with campanelas (Bartolotti) is from 1640. Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
