I'm also skeptical of an octave G, if for no other reason than the fact
that Sanz simply doesn't mention it. He takes pains to say that if you
want to sound like the fashionable players of the time, then you should
use such-and-such a stringing. He never mentions, "And if you *really*
want to sound good, use an octave on the G" or anything of the kind.
In fact, I'm not aware of anybody mentioning an octave on the G (please
correct me if I'm wrong). On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with
taking discrete liberties with the written score, and playing the
higher G when it feels necessary. I think statistically speaking, if
you put the burden (no pun intended) on the G course, rather that
bordones on the D and/or A, you will find fewer cases where you wish
for an octave other than the one the strings sound -- with Sanz at
least. (Can I get an honorary degree if I prove that point?) And
further, if you strike the strings equally with your thumb, I think all
agree (except perhaps Lex) that the lower octave will dominate the
sensation of what you hear... biology of the ear, more mass in the
bordon producing more pressure in the air. So I personally don't
believe adding a bordon to the G is worth the cost of fine-tuning my
technique so I can choose which octave I want to emphasize.
Technically, it's easier to grab the higher-octave G on a different
string when I can't live without it.
That said, it's curious to find passages in Sanz that could easily be
played with the G', yet are written for the lower octave. I think
that's a clue to how differently music was heard at the time. Take
measure 2 of the second line in Passacalles sobre la D con muchas
Diferencias. Why is that G a lower octave? Bordones on the D string
clearly don't solve anything there. There's no problem either playing
the G' on the E string, or arranging a campanela that's identical to
the campanela in the 4th to the last measire of the piece. Given the
velocity of the passage, either alternative is well within technical
reach. But that's not his choice. Interesting stuff...
cud
__________________________________________________________________
From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: Chris Despopoulos <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 5:15:03 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant
accepted by all?
Whatever the case is for an octave on the third course (and to me it
seems so very slim as to be negligible compared with all the evidence
-
other than our modern expectations of course) bear in mind the
tensile
strength of gut. An instrument with a string length of 69cm, say,
would
struggle to get up to g' at a tone under modern pitch. Whatever the
'historical' pitch it also seems clear that guitars were generally
not
tuned so near to breaking stress as lutes so a safety margin of a
further tone is appropriate. In short, you'd need to tune a major
third
below modern to reasonably employ an octave third. This is, of
course,
one of the principal cases against an octave on the third course.
M
--- On Mon, 22/11/10, Chris Despopoulos
<[1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
From: Chris Despopoulos <[2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant
accepted by all?
To: "Monica Hall" <[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 23:25
Thanks for the blessing of sorts... discretion being in the eye
of
the
beholder and all that. Well then, I think it's either put a
bordon
on
the D string, or sneak the upper octave G into my fingering for
those
passages. It's not a technical problem to accomplish either.
What
strikes me as so odd is that this is the only Sanz piece I found
so
far
that causes any serious problems. I did play for a real Baroque
guitarist (as opposed to myself -- an amateur) who suggested I
try
the
French stringing, and who echoed your statement that Sanz is not
writing anything in stone about stringing the instrument. But in
general I like having the G as the lowest note for this music.
cud
__________________________________________________________________
From: Monica Hall <[1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: Chris Despopoulos <[2][6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Vihuelalist <[3][7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 2:22:36 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all
re-entrant
accepted by all?
That is why some people do argue that octave stringing on the 3rd
course is intended.
Gordon Ferries plays it on his CD with the re-entrant tuning. It
works
after a fashion but it is not the best track.
I think the point is that Sanz doesn't explicitly say that all
his
music is intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. All
he
really doing is generally saying which tuning he thinks works
best
for
which type of music.
I think you can exercise a bit of discretion in these matters.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: [1]Chris Despopoulos
To: [2]Monica Hall
Cc: [3]Vihuelalist
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all
re-entrant
accepted by all?
Fuga Primera, por primer Tono al ayre Espanyol, the open G string
in
measures (counting from the tablaltura, and not counting the
notated
theme):
5
19
23
25
(Note the open G in 24 is not a problem, even though its leading
is
very similar)
In these cases, I simply cannot hear a logical leading into the
lower
G... to my ear it desperately wants the upper octave G. I can
play
that upper octave on the E string, but that's not how it's
written.
There are other instances of ambiguous leading in this piece (and
many
others) where either octave could make sense. In those cases the
lower
octave is not a problem for me, and I find a careful emphasis
makes
those notes settle perfectly well into the piece. But these
cited
cases just don't work for me, no matter how hard I try to hear
it.
So
far this is the only piece that troubles me in the Sanz books.
But
it
really troubles me... I love it and want to fully understand it.
Some people have suggested there's evidence that Sanz approved of
and
possibly used an octave-strung G course. I'm not convinced --
Anyway,
that just pushes the whole issue onto another course and really
doesn't
help solve this raging argument about stringing/playing the
guitar.
Any advice you can offer on this piece is quite welcome!
Cheers cud
__________________________________________________________________
From: Monica Hall <[4][8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: Chris Despopoulos <[5][9]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Vihuelalist <[6][10]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 11:29:50 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant
accepted by all?
Which fugue is it?
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Despopoulos"
<[4][7][11]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
To: "wikla" <[5][8][12]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi>
Cc: <[6][9][13]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 3:54 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant
accepted by
all?
> In my experience, I would say nearly all Sanz definitely
*works*
with
> fully re-entrant tuning. I find only one fugue that gives me
any
> problems... Every other piece I have tried so far sounds
absolutely
> great, and makes perfect sense in a fully re-entrant tuning.
It
takes
> a little getting used to... Probably the most difficult
pieces
to
play
> are the ones you have played previously on a modern guitar.
The
logic
> of the pieces may prove to be different than you initially
thought.
> But for all that, the logic is generally consistent... Except
that
one
> darned fugue!
> cud
>
__________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Stuart Walsh <[7][10][14]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> To: wikla <[8][11][15]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi>
> Cc: [9][12][16]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Sent: Sat, November 20, 2010 5:29:16 PM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all
re-entrant
> accepted by all?
> > Dear flat-back lutenists,
> >
> > is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who
without
> any
> > modern disagreement definitely used the "double re-entrant"
tuning
-
> the
> > 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee
perhaps?
> An interesting question. I'd like to see a list too. And a
more
> contested list of what may well be music for this tuning, but
not
> actually specified.
> I think these are definitely for the fully re-entrant tuning:
> Valdambrini
> Carre
> some (?) Sanz
> and?....
> Stuart
> > To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that
setting
> sounds
> > really interesting - the opposite way of putting the
fingerboard
> strings
> > sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to
b,
in
> b-guitar
> > in e from g to e'.
> >
> > In this interesting light just considering of getting a
b-guitar...
> :)
> >
> > Arto
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> >
[1][10][13][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[11][14][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. mailto:[15][19]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
2. mailto:[16][20]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:[17][21]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:[18][22]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
5. mailto:[19][23]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
6. mailto:[20][24]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. mailto:[21][25]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
8. mailto:[22][26]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
9. mailto:[23][27]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
10.
[24][28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
11.
[25][29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1.
[30]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
2.
[31]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yah
oo.com
3.
[32]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
4.
[33]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
5.
[34]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yah
oo.com
6.
[35]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
7.
[36]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yah
oo.com
8.
[37]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
9.
[38]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
10.
[39]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
11.
[40]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
12.
[41]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
13. [42]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
14. [43]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
15.
[44]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yah
oo.com
16.
[45]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
17.
[46]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
18.
[47]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yah
oo.com
19.
[48]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
20.
[49]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
21.
[50]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
22.
[51]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
23.
[52]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
24. [53]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
25. [54]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
2. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
4. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
7. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
10. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
11. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
12. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
13. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
14. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
15. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
16. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
19. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
20. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
21. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
22. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
23. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
24. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
25. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
26. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
27. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
28. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
29. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
30. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
31. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
32. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
33. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
34. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
35. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
36. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
37. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
38. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
39. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
40. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
41. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
42. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
43. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
44. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
45. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
46. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
47. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
48. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
49. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
50. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
51. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
52. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
53. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
54. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
