[VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe
On 20/02/2011 23:00, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Hi all... I posted a recording of the Paracumbe por la A from the Libro de Diferentes Cifras, M/811 (1705). Just another re-entrant entry... For what it's worth. cud -- Where? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe
Oops... It was late last night. [1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Look in the first playlist. I burried it in the middle. Note that it has warts. Also, I assume this is one of those New World dances that has some African influence... Courtly fun taking a cue from the slave trade and all that. Anyway, that's how I tried to read the music... Cheers cud __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 3:18:29 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Paracumbe On 20/02/2011 23:00, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Hi all... I posted a recording of the Paracumbe por la A from the Libro de Diferentes Cifras, M/811 (1705). Just another re-entrant entry... For what it's worth. cud -- Where? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern
The system which Grove On Line uses has a lower case c' for middle c and c for the octave below - which as far as I know is standard and known as Helmholtz notation. It is the one which I have always used myself. I can't imagine why Lute News chose to do something different. I must tell the editor off! Monica - Original Message - From: A. J. Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern It's so unusual that if you ever see the notation F#F#F# - CC - BbBbBb you'll remember it. I remembered it, but not where I saw it.g Iteresting that it's so old. The editors of Lute News should use a common system, such as that used in New Grove. Andrew Hartig sent me a link to Doc's article on he cittern in America. I've often wanted to know more about the use of the instrument in Boston. http://www.cetrapublishing.com/artists/rossi/colonial_paper.pdf It's bitterly cold here today, and the boiler for the apartment house is not working. Regards, Arthur. - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: A. J. Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 12:35 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern Thank-your - there do seem to be different schemes to confuse the unwary! Monica - Original Message - From: A. J. Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern Dear Monica, There are many schemes for designating the various octaves of musical pitch. See _New_HDM_, page 640, bottom of the first column. CC indicates the C with two ledger lines below the bass clef, C the C in the bass clef and c as middle C, octave above that c', then c etc. It is a system of indicating pitch used by English organ builders and dates back to 1519. (See _New_Grove_, pitch nomenclature, Example 1/2.) Sounds like a system that the Galpin Society would use in their publications. Lute News hasn't reached me yet, so you've piqued my curiosity. Arthur. - Original Message - From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 6:52 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Arch-cittern Those of you who belong to the Lute Society will have received the latest number of Lute News. (Apologies to those of you who aren't members). This has a reproduction of the portrait of the actress Dorothy Jordan playing an arch-cittern - which looks a bit like an English guitar with additional diapasons. There is a commentary by Peter Holman. There are one or two things which I think experts on these instruments might be able to clarify for me. The first of these is where he mentions the possibility that the colour coded strings are harp strings and then says this would mean that Jordan tuned them in a diatonic sequence rising from CC. According to both the Oxford Concise and Harvard Dictionaries there is no such thing as CC. C alone would indicate that the lowest diapason was tuned to the note C below the bass clef - i.e. with 2 leger lines. C1 is an octave below that which seems a bit unlikely. So what is the lowest note? Is CC a misprint for C. The other question is about the music on p.7. I'm assuming that both parts are supposed to be played on a single instrument. If so the notes on the lower stave will occasionally overlap with those on the upper stave. Are we supposed to read the lower stave an octave lower? Hope I have made myself clear. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe
No octave strings on my guitar (for now, anyway). cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 9:43:03 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe Those of you who are familiar with Murcia's well known Cumbees will recognise the opening bars and one or two of the variations are similar as well. Alejandro Vera seems to think it may be by Murcia - who would have been about 30 years old when the ms. was copied - but who knows? Anyway - it seems to work well with the re-entrant tuning (but did I detect a high octave string on the 3rd course?). Otherwise very nice. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Stuart Walsh [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 9:16 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe Oops... It was late last night. [1][4]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Look in the first playlist. I burried it in the middle. Note that it has warts. Also, I assume this is one of those New World dances that has some African influence... Courtly fun taking a cue from the slave trade and all that. Anyway, that's how I tried to read the music... Cheers cud __ From: Stuart Walsh [5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Chris Despopoulos [6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 3:18:29 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Paracumbe On 20/02/2011 23:00, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Hi all... I posted a recording of the Paracumbe por la A from the Libro de Diferentes Cifras, M/811 (1705). Just another re-entrant entry... For what it's worth. cud -- Where? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [9]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 2. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 5. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 6. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 7. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe
Good! - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 3:09 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe No octave strings on my guitar (for now, anyway). cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 9:43:03 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe Those of you who are familiar with Murcia's well known Cumbees will recognise the opening bars and one or two of the variations are similar as well. Alejandro Vera seems to think it may be by Murcia - who would have been about 30 years old when the ms. was copied - but who knows? Anyway - it seems to work well with the re-entrant tuning (but did I detect a high octave string on the 3rd course?). Otherwise very nice. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Stuart Walsh [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 9:16 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe Oops... It was late last night. [1][4]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Look in the first playlist. I burried it in the middle. Note that it has warts. Also, I assume this is one of those New World dances that has some African influence... Courtly fun taking a cue from the slave trade and all that. Anyway, that's how I tried to read the music... Cheers cud __ From: Stuart Walsh [5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Chris Despopoulos [6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 3:18:29 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Paracumbe On 20/02/2011 23:00, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Hi all... I posted a recording of the Paracumbe por la A from the Libro de Diferentes Cifras, M/811 (1705). Just another re-entrant entry... For what it's worth. cud -- Where? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [9]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 2. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 5. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 6. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 7. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern
I think it's just an oversight. Chris has so much to do he can be excused this time. But it is just the type of detail for which an editor must watch. CCC (etc.) may be a system Peter Holman uses. But the consequences can be confusing and misleading, as we discovered in this thread. The New HDM also uses the c' = middle c. And that surely is the system most of us are accustomed to using. Chris should have translated Peter's system into the standard one. A lesson learned. - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: A. J. Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 9:34 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern The system which Grove On Line uses has a lower case c' for middle c and c for the octave below - which as far as I know is standard and known as Helmholtz notation. It is the one which I have always used myself. I can't imagine why Lute News chose to do something different. I must tell the editor off! Monica - Original Message - From: A. J. Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern It's so unusual that if you ever see the notation F#F#F# - CC - BbBbBb you'll remember it. I remembered it, but not where I saw it.g Iteresting that it's so old. The editors of Lute News should use a common system, such as that used in New Grove. Andrew Hartig sent me a link to Doc's article on he cittern in America. I've often wanted to know more about the use of the instrument in Boston. http://www.cetrapublishing.com/artists/rossi/colonial_paper.pdf It's bitterly cold here today, and the boiler for the apartment house is not working. Regards, Arthur. - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: A. J. Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 12:35 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern Thank-your - there do seem to be different schemes to confuse the unwary! Monica - Original Message - From: A. J. Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 2:20 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Arch-cittern Dear Monica, There are many schemes for designating the various octaves of musical pitch. See _New_HDM_, page 640, bottom of the first column. CC indicates the C with two ledger lines below the bass clef, C the C in the bass clef and c as middle C, octave above that c', then c etc. It is a system of indicating pitch used by English organ builders and dates back to 1519. (See _New_Grove_, pitch nomenclature, Example 1/2.) Sounds like a system that the Galpin Society would use in their publications. Lute News hasn't reached me yet, so you've piqued my curiosity. Arthur. - Original Message - From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 6:52 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Arch-cittern Those of you who belong to the Lute Society will have received the latest number of Lute News. (Apologies to those of you who aren't members). This has a reproduction of the portrait of the actress Dorothy Jordan playing an arch-cittern - which looks a bit like an English guitar with additional diapasons. There is a commentary by Peter Holman. There are one or two things which I think experts on these instruments might be able to clarify for me. The first of these is where he mentions the possibility that the colour coded strings are harp strings and then says this would mean that Jordan tuned them in a diatonic sequence rising from CC. According to both the Oxford Concise and Harvard Dictionaries there is no such thing as CC. C alone would indicate that the lowest diapason was tuned to the note C below the bass clef - i.e. with 2 leger lines. C1 is an octave below that which seems a bit unlikely. So what is the lowest note? Is CC a misprint for C. The other question is about the music on p.7. I'm assuming that both parts are supposed to be played on a single instrument. If so the notes on the lower stave will occasionally overlap with those on the upper stave. Are we supposed to read the lower stave an octave lower? Hope I have made myself clear. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Paracumbe
On 21/02/2011 09:16, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Oops... It was late last night. [1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Look in the first playlist. I burried it in the middle. Note that it has warts. Also, I assume this is one of those New World dances that has some African influence... Courtly fun taking a cue from the slave trade and all that. Anyway, that's how I tried to read the music... Cheers cud Plenty of energy in that Chris! Sound great - and your guitar does too. Stuart __ From: Stuart Walsh [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Chris Despopoulos [3]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 3:18:29 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Paracumbe On 20/02/2011 23:00, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Hi all... I posted a recording of the Paracumbe por la A from the Libro de Diferentes Cifras, M/811 (1705). Just another re-entrant entry... For what it's worth. cud -- Where? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://cudspan.net/baroque/ 2. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 3. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 4. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
