[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar culture and habits?
What's the definition of a minor 2nd? Two guitarists playing the same note at the same time. What's the definiton of counterpoint? Two guitarists playing the same line at the same time. Wasn't it Berlioz, a guitarist himself, who said, There's no sound worse than the sound of fifty guitars playing the same note at the same time.? A fellow guitarist (sometimes with/sometimes without nails). - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 3:19 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar culture and habits? I'm reminded of the engraving of a riot/melee between those who support use of the nails and those who do not. Face it... Guitarists are a weird bunch. How to you get a guitarists to be quiet? Hand him some sheet music. What do you call a guitarist who broke up with his girlfriend? Homeless. How many guitarists does it take to change a light bulb? 10... One to change it and nine to say I could have done that better. cud __ From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:10 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Baroque guitar culture and habits? Dear flat back lutenists, I just read: I did :-) And I don't understand your edition. Perhaps you need to go back to school and learn some more counterpoint. Here we go again! Dear baroque guitarists, why cannot you be friends supporting and adding up each others' brilliant ideas - as we lutenists do (or are we really?) - instead of fighting of every 7th and its resolution, and every borduna/ocave in stringing? Is this actually a phenomenon of (modern) classical guitar culture brought to b-guitar world, too? I still remember my old guitarring times, when I was very Yepesian and was fighting against the Segovians, who were fighting against us. Something similiar here? To me we round back lutenists are much more liberal (well, at least relatively, compared to b-guitarists) in accepting different ways of making our music and stringing our instruments, etc. What could be the explanation? Is the 5 course guitar really so critical a vehicle, or does the Segovian - not Segovian (or Sor-Guiliani?) contradiction affect still the guitarists converted from modern guitar to baroque guitar? Positively, Arto PS I suppose the 5 course guitar was actually an extremely free and wild instrument - used as is and as wished here and there by good and bad players. I would recommend anything goes. Don't be too clever, play and strum interestingly... I guess that is most authentic... ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.900 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3630 - Release Date: 05/10/11 23:34:00
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Dear Monica, Well - two extracts from what you have just written: - If you mean by this that another instrument could play just the bass line without filling in the harmony - there may be no prohibition but there is no indication either that this is what Marini intended. - .but as I have said already there is no reason to think that just playing the bass line is an option. These sum up the problem: in that you move directly from their being 'no prohibition' to saying 'that just playing the bass line' is not an option by way of an assumption this was not allowed by Marini. As already said, I beg to differ with you on this - as I do with your wish to avoid perfectly acceptable passing dissonance (one of the joys in music of this period) regards Martyn PS You write What you need to consider is how you would realize the bassline if the alfabeto were not there. But - I addressed this very issue -perhaps you missed where I mentioned the intrusive Eb (in the Cb/6 chord] if the bass was realised and the alfabeto also played. This is precisely why I very clearly stated that I should not expect a realised bass if the guitar played the alfabeto, since a continuo player (theorbo/keyboard) would normally play C b/6 rather than Dmaj over the C (- as I said). But by asking for a Dmaj chord here (with a 7th in the bass) Marini (or whoever) certainly provides a good alternative. The chord (Alfabeto .C.) combined with the bass line (alone) is then D7/4 - perfectly acceptable and then cadencing through D to the tonic G. M --- On Wed, 11/5/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 11 May, 2011, 14:49 Well - I'm not sure that there is any point in reviving this discussion - especially as I disagree with most of what you say. But for what it is worth... 1. I can find no prohibition to employing an instrument to play the bass line alone even when the guitar is used to play the alfabeto. If you mean by this that another instrument could play just the bass line without filling in the harmony - there may be no prohibition but there is no indication either that this is what Marini intended. Indeed, Marini's note below (yr trans) seems to me to directly allow such a possibility However, I think you believe this note means that no other instrument should ever play if the guitar plays alfabeto - I beg to differ. What it suggests to me is that he has provided alternative accompaniments. Otherwise in order to accommodate the different instruments he would have had to provided a simpler bass line. The idea was that the singer accompanied themselves in this repertoire - not that there was a group of continuo players. Here is the quote again - for reference. Note that in some places you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line. This is because it is the wish of the author to accompany the voice in as many ways as possible rather than while by paying heed to the requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of the other, since the guitar lacks manyproper consonances. 2. A good case of this is that one we've already considered in Il verno where we both agree there is an F6/5 chord (you use different terminology and call it the first inversion of a minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - Dm7). However I see nothing 'wrong' with just playing a plain Fmaj chord (alfabeto G) against the d in the voice to give the overall 6/5 chord Nor do I if the guitar is the only accompanying instrument. whereas, if I understand you correctly, you think the alfabeto is incorrect and the guitarist should play a Dm chord (or Dm7 if the Marini's alfabeto allowed such). No - I don't think that. What I disagree with is the idea that the guitar should play an F major chord against the G in the bass. I think it is essential to include a D in the chord over the G bass because this defines it as a dominant chord. And probably omit the A which is the dominant 9th. (I'll send you my transcription separately). Finally, re your comment about the closing bars of of Desio di sguardi on p.10: you write 'At both cadences the 4-3 suspension in the guitar part comes before the bass line has arrived at the root of the chord.' This is just a similar situation as in Il verno - It isn't the same. In Il verno the bass line arrives at the root of the dominant before the 4-3 suspension in the guitar part. In Desio si guardi
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar culture and habits?
But my dear Arto - there really is no problem between debating conflicting views and 'friendship' - you can have both. It's only when personal abuse appears (as it did in some Lute list exchanges a number of years ago) that we ought to throw in the towel. However, I do agree that the medium of email is not the best to conduct these discussions - but what do you suggest - not raising any such issues at all? regards M --- On Wed, 11/5/11, wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Subject: [VIHUELA] Baroque guitar culture and habits? To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 11 May, 2011, 22:10 Dear flat back lutenists, I just read: I did :-) And I don't understand your edition. Perhaps you need to go back to school and learn some more counterpoint. Here we go again! Dear baroque guitarists, why cannot you be friends supporting and adding up each others' brilliant ideas - as we lutenists do (or are we really?) - instead of fighting of every 7th and its resolution, and every borduna/ocave in stringing? Is this actually a phenomenon of (modern) classical guitar culture brought to b-guitar world, too? I still remember my old guitarring times, when I was very Yepesian and was fighting against the Segovians, who were fighting against us. Something similiar here? To me we round back lutenists are much more liberal (well, at least relatively, compared to b-guitarists) in accepting different ways of making our music and stringing our instruments, etc. What could be the explanation? Is the 5 course guitar really so critical a vehicle, or does the Segovian - not Segovian (or Sor-Guiliani?) contradiction affect still the guitarists converted from modern guitar to baroque guitar? Positively, Arto PS I suppose the 5 course guitar was actually an extremely free and wild instrument - used as is and as wished here and there by good and bad players. I would recommend anything goes. Don't be too clever, play and strum interestingly... I guess that is most authentic... ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar culture and habits?
Dear Martyn, Well, my comment was not about contents but style of writing... And it really was not so very serious... These conversations sometimes actually are quite entertaining, too. All the best, Arto On 12/05/11 11:24, Martyn Hodgson wrote: But my dear Arto - there really is no problem between debating conflicting views and 'friendship' - you can have both. It's only when personal abuse appears (as it did in some Lute list exchanges a number of years ago) that we ought to throw in the towel. However, I do agree that the medium of email is not the best to conduct these discussions - but what do you suggest - not raising any such issues at all? regards M --- On Wed, 11/5/11, wiklawi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: From: wiklawi...@cs.helsinki.fi Subject: [VIHUELA] Baroque guitar culture and habits? To: Vihuelalistvihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 11 May, 2011, 22:10 Dear flat back lutenists, I just read: I did :-) And I don't understand your edition. Perhaps you need to go back to school and learn some more counterpoint. Here we go again! Dear baroque guitarists, why cannot you be friends supporting and adding up each others' brilliant ideas - as we lutenists do (or are we really?) - instead of fighting of every 7th and its resolution, and every borduna/ocave in stringing? Is this actually a phenomenon of (modern) classical guitar culture brought to b-guitar world, too? I still remember my old guitarring times, when I was very Yepesian and was fighting against the Segovians, who were fighting against us. Something similiar here? To me we round back lutenists are much more liberal (well, at least relatively, compared to b-guitarists) in accepting different ways of making our music and stringing our instruments, etc. What could be the explanation? Is the 5 course guitar really so critical a vehicle, or does the Segovian - not Segovian (or Sor-Guiliani?) contradiction affect still the guitarists converted from modern guitar to baroque guitar? Positively, Arto PS I suppose the 5 course guitar was actually an extremely free and wild instrument - used as is and as wished here and there by good and bad players. I would recommend anything goes. Don't be too clever, play and strum interestingly... I guess that is most authentic... ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
