[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' -
plagiarism? That is the most obvious explanation although there could be others. I think very little of Carre's work is original. I don't think there is much doubt that Corbetta's book is earlier than Carre's. I don't see why we should believe that. As I have explained several times the licences of Corbetta's La guitarre royale are dated September 1670 which means that he had assembled the book and was seeking permission to publish it.Carre was not granted a licence until 1671. I really don't see the link between the two, the repicci and the 'harmony', required for his sonatas. There seems to me to be an obvious link. The repicco variations are sequences of chords which are played including some or all of the strings. Immediately following his remark on stringing he has gone on to refer to the continuo exercises at the end of the book. Strange that if he thought that a bourdon on the fifth course was necessary to make sense of these he opted for a rapprochement or compromise-concession to French guitarists Is it 'which my sonatas also require' or 'as also my sonatas require'? The wording makes no difference. However it is possible that he is saying my sonatas require the same thing as other peoples. In the context I think that is a less likely explanation. Maybe we need the help of an Italian native speaker. (I do) You are always saying that but unfortunately there is always an element of ambiguity in language. You are trying to read into these things more than they can actually tell us. A native speaker is no more likely to be able to offer a definitive answer and unless they are familiar with the subject they can't be regarded as any more authoritative than the rest of us. I am a native English speaker but I would be at a loss trying to explain technicalities in e.g. an English source of keyboard music about which I know very little. Unfortunately a lot of translations are made by people who have no knowledge of the subject they are translating. Do composers usually compromise? Some certainly do. Corbetta probably had a colourful life. Gambling, intrigues etc. He was cunning enough to survive. I don't think that is relevant. Gesualdo murdered his wife, Gombert was sent to the galleys for molesting a choirboy. That tells us nothing about the way their music should be performed. I do not know of anyone apart from Lex who has claimed that the tablature charts found in some Italian books are only applicable to one method of stringing. Since the publication of Gill's 1975 article and Tyler's book from 1980 the usual solution has been to drop the bourdons (or actually just one) It was actually Richard Pinnell who first came up with the idea. Perhaps I should quote Gary Boye to you... Whilst these soures are reasonably clear in their explanations, the large majority of battuto tablatures make no distinction between unisons and octaves in their tuning instructions, perhaps to allow performers to decide on either stringing method. As far as I know there are no unambiguous references to dropping bourdons from the 17th century (also not Sanz?), for such reasons. The reasons for dropping them seem to have been primarily practical. but we have been over that so many times... Nearly all of the music in Corbetta's first book is in alfabeto. The tradition which fits into is that of music which is entirely strummed. But there are also the pieces with treble and bass. There are a small number of rather experimental pieces which are rather different from those in his later book. To me the 'accordatura' and 'prova' charts from this book are quite clear. If you would like to interpret them in 'a more general sense', go ahead. Once again - you want to read into these things more than they can tell us. But If they used different stringing, sure one would be with bourdons (Sanz). Not necessarily e.g. Carre. How do you know he didn't get the idea from Corbetta? Do we know many references from guitar books, to using a second guitar for accompaniment? We have been over this before. Not necessarily a second guitar - a second instrument capable of reinforcing the bass line. It is fairly obvious that the consort pieces in Grenerin are meant to be performed by a group of instruments. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Lute 2008 - Carre etc.
There was a market for publishing guitar music in mixed style in Italy, from 1630 on. Not in France. How do you know? It may be that due to the economic situation in France - especially during the Fronde - that it wasn't practical to print music but that doesn't prove that players were not interested in music in mixed style. There is a lot of lute music, and airs de cour etc. Printed and in manuscript. But almost no guitar music in mixed style in manuscript from between 1630 - 1670. So then should we assume that people in France would have mainly played the music of foreign composers, from printed books? No French compositions? This would have been very different from what we know of the world of the lute. Sorry, you mix up things here. What I write about Corbetta's position is hypothetical. You seem to think that I myself regard re-entrant stringing as inferior. That is the impression that you give all the time.What you have said is Corbetta's music transcends the scope of the re-entrant tuning That is entirely your own perception of the music. You cannot possibly know whether Corbetta thought his music transcended re-entrant stringing as inferior as he has said nothing at all on the subject. The fact that the music transcends the scope of re-entrant tuning doesn't say that that tuning is inferior. We just should accept that it is not capable of rendering everything in music. Not Bach's Chaconne, for example... That is one manuscript. You simply don't know that. What has survived to the present day is only the tip of the iceberg. We are lucky that the Gallot ms. has survived. There must have been other people like Gallot who copied or had copied similar manuscripts which haven't survived. We all have our happy dreams. Ms.Rés. 2344 1647 which is dated 1647 includes music in mixed style including a version of the repicco variation - which occurs in Bartolotti's 2nd book. So then Bartolotti has probably pirated it, into his Secondo Libro from c.1655? Rather late? Gallot's servant Monnier started to copy it in 1660 and the repertoire he copied dates from the previous 20 years. Started it in 1660. Were many Italian works in mixed style inscribed in the manuscript before c.1670? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
Hello you two, I've been away a couple of days: can you kindly remind me of the principal issue in this latest exchange? It surely can't be that you aim to base an entire case on Carre's book rgds Martyn From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 13:59 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - February 1671 indeed. We know that the printing of Corbetta's book was completed 31 October 1671. We don't know what he has changed or added between September 1670 and October 1671. I think it unlikely that Corbetta would have changed anything after being granted the licences because publications were subject to censorship. This was certainly the case in Spain I am not sure of the details in France. Like for example the preface. Carre's book could have been printed long before that date. If Corbetta knew the content of Carre's book he could easily have echoed the advice on the stringing of the fourth course. Whether he has echoed it or not is really immaterial. It doesn't prove that Corbetta disagreed with Carre. Carre's continuo examples are almost exclusively in pizzicato. Well - he hasn't indicated whether any of the chords should be strummed - probably for practical reasons to do with the printing.. But quite a few of them could be strummed. A lot of the chords are in the wrong inversions e.g.the first four chords on G re sol have the G on the 3rd course and the notes on the fourth course will sound below them. The first four chords on B fa si have the B flat on the fifth course where it will sound above the notes on the third and fourth fifth courses and so on. I can't list them all. Yes - he does seem to be confused as to which method of stringing he is using - or perhaps he is just using his common sense and placing them where it is practical to play them. Very different from the usual Italian battuto-pizzicato approach, and Carre has certainly not copied this from Corbetta's 1671 book. Yes - I agree he didn't copy these from Corbetta. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
Only the European Court at he Hague knows the principal issue here, and it issued a gag order apropos. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 10:38 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc. Hello you two, I've been away a couple of days: can you kindly remind me of the principal issue in this latest exchange? It surely can't be that you aim to base an entire case on Carre's book rgds Martyn From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 13:59 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - February 1671 indeed. We know that the printing of Corbetta's book was completed 31 October 1671. We don't know what he has changed or added between September 1670 and October 1671. I think it unlikely that Corbetta would have changed anything after being granted the licences because publications were subject to censorship. This was certainly the case in Spain I am not sure of the details in France. Like for example the preface. Carre's book could have been printed long before that date. If Corbetta knew the content of Carre's book he could easily have echoed the advice on the stringing of the fourth course. Whether he has echoed it or not is really immaterial. It doesn't prove that Corbetta disagreed with Carre. Carre's continuo examples are almost exclusively in pizzicato. Well - he hasn't indicated whether any of the chords should be strummed - probably for practical reasons to do with the printing.. But quite a few of them could be strummed. A lot of the chords are in the wrong inversions e.g.the first four chords on G re sol have the G on the 3rd course and the notes on the fourth course will sound below them. The first four chords on B fa si have the B flat on the fifth course where it will sound above the notes on the third and fourth fifth courses and so on. I can't list them all. Yes - he does seem to be confused as to which method of stringing he is using - or perhaps he is just using his common sense and placing them where it is practical to play them. Very different from the usual Italian battuto-pizzicato approach, and Carre has certainly not copied this from Corbetta's 1671 book. Yes - I agree he didn't copy these from Corbetta. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
I think Roman is right. I have spent enough time on this already and we have been over it all so many times in the past. There is really nothing more I wish to say. Monica - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc. Only the European Court at he Hague knows the principal issue here, and it issued a gag order apropos. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 10:38 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc. Hello you two, I've been away a couple of days: can you kindly remind me of the principal issue in this latest exchange? It surely can't be that you aim to base an entire case on Carre's book rgds Martyn From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 13:59 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - February 1671 indeed. We know that the printing of Corbetta's book was completed 31 October 1671. We don't know what he has changed or added between September 1670 and October 1671. I think it unlikely that Corbetta would have changed anything after being granted the licences because publications were subject to censorship. This was certainly the case in Spain I am not sure of the details in France. Like for example the preface. Carre's book could have been printed long before that date. If Corbetta knew the content of Carre's book he could easily have echoed the advice on the stringing of the fourth course. Whether he has echoed it or not is really immaterial. It doesn't prove that Corbetta disagreed with Carre. Carre's continuo examples are almost exclusively in pizzicato. Well - he hasn't indicated whether any of the chords should be strummed - probably for practical reasons to do with the printing.. But quite a few of them could be strummed. A lot of the chords are in the wrong inversions e.g.the first four chords on G re sol have the G on the 3rd course and the notes on the fourth course will sound below them. The first four chords on B fa si have the B flat on the fifth course where it will sound above the notes on the third and fourth fifth courses and so on. I can't list them all. Yes - he does seem to be confused as to which method of stringing he is using - or perhaps he is just using his common sense and placing them where it is practical to play them. Very different from the usual Italian battuto-pizzicato approach, and Carre has certainly not copied this from Corbetta's 1671 book. Yes - I agree he didn't copy these from Corbetta. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
I think Lex is trying to argue that the French tuning originated with Carre and Corbetta just copied it because he thought this would make his music more acceptable to French players although it wasn't the tuning he used himself. One other small point - I said Ms.Rés. 2344 which is dated 1647 includes music in mixed style including a version of the repicco variation - which occurs in Bartolotti's 2nd book. I have said a version - not that it was copied from Bartolotti. It may have been a common element which several people incorporated into their variations. It occurs several times in the Gallot ms. and in Elizabeth Cromwell's book. Vale Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson To: Monica Hall ; Lex Eisenhardt Cc: Vihuelalist Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc. Hello you two, I've been away a couple of days: can you kindly remind me of the principal issue in this latest exchange? It surely can't be that you aim to base an entire case on Carre's book rgds Martyn From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 13:59 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - February 1671 indeed. We know that the printing of Corbetta's book was completed 31 October 1671. We don't know what he has changed or added between September 1670 and October 1671. I think it unlikely that Corbetta would have changed anything after being granted the licences because publications were subject to censorship. This was certainly the case in Spain I am not sure of the details in France. Like for example the preface. Carré's book could have been printed long before that date. If Corbetta knew the content of Carré's book he could easily have echoed the advice on the stringing of the fourth course. Whether he has echoed it or not is really immaterial. It doesn't prove that Corbetta disagreed with Carre. Carré's continuo examples are almost exclusively in pizzicato. Well - he hasn't indicated whether any of the chords should be strummed - probably for practical reasons to do with the printing.. But quite a few of them could be strummed. A lot of the chords are in the wrong inversions e.g.the first four chords on G re sol have the G on the 3rd course and the notes on the fourth course will sound below them. The first four chords on B fa si have the B flat on the fifth course where it will sound above the notes on the third and fourth fifth courses and so on. I can't list them all. Yes - he does seem to be confused as to which method of stringing he is using - or perhaps he is just using his common sense and placing them where it is practical to play them. Very different from the usual Italian battuto-pizzicato approach, and Carré has certainly not copied this from Corbetta's 1671 book. Yes - I agree he didn't copy these from Corbetta. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
I knew I shouldn't have held my breath RT From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk One other small point - I said To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
. I'm still holding mine for the revelation of the principal issue.. MH From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 17:02 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc. I knew I shouldn't have held my breath RT From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk One other small point - I said To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
