[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
I don't think groups these recordings really have any insight into the sensibilities of 17th century players. Perhaps you know Agostino Agazzari article 'Del sonare sopra il basso', published in 1607? It among other interesting matters makes it very clear that the orchestration could be _very_ rich in those days! I wouldn't be too eager to condemn L'Arpeggiata having no insight into the sensibilities of 17th century players as you wrote! I have some clips of Agazzari's article in my 16 years old page, see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/agazzari.html No chitarra spagnuola (or darbuka) on his list rgds, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
I suppose it could be said that the guitar would be covered by his etc... Also note he only mentions the 'chitarrino' (small 4 course instrument?) in his list of embellishing instruments and omits the larger (5 course) guitar. This, I suggest, implies that the guitar does indeed fit with the other continuo realisation instruments covered by the etc But I do agree that the modern practice of some groups involving much banging and thrashing about is probably misplaced: just because Agazzari lists a number of instruments doesn't mean they all play at the same time! MH --- On Sun, 11/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 11 December, 2011, 9:24 I don't think groups these recordings really have any insight into the sensibilities of 17th century players. Perhaps you know Agostino Agazzari article 'Del sonare sopra il basso', published in 1607? It among other interesting matters makes it very clear that the orchestration could be _very_ rich in those days! I wouldn't be too eager to condemn L'Arpeggiata having no insight into the sensibilities of 17th century players as you wrote! I have some clips of Agazzari's article in my 16 years old page, see [1]http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/agazzari.html No chitarra spagnuola (or darbuka) on his list rgds, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/agazzari.html 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
I suppose it could be said that the guitar would be covered by his etc... Also note he only mentions the 'chitarrino' (small 4 course instrument?) in his list of embellishing instruments and omits the larger (5 course) guitar. This, I suggest, implies that the guitar does indeed fit with the other continuo realisation instruments covered by the etc Agazzari says: 'chitarrina', not 'chitarrino'. What is a chitarrina? Was it strummed, like the chitarra spagnola? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
Thanks Lex
Well, I don't have a facsimile of Agazzari to hand so took the
(translated) text from this recommended ('excellent') translation (see
below) which gives 'chitarrino' . Does Agazzari write 'chitarrina' in
the original source? And what is a 'chitarrina' rather than, say, a
'chitarra' if not a smaller instrument?
regards
Martyn
...an excellent [sic] version of Agazzari's article
by [1]Bernhard Lang in the Werner Icking Music Archive! All the text is
in Italian, English and German!
... I must first ... classify them [instruments] ... into instruments
like a foundation and instruments like ornaments. Like foundation are
those which guide and support the whole body of of the voices and
instruments of the consort; such are the the organ, harpsichord, etc.,
and similarly when there are few voices, the lute, theorbo, harp, etc.
Like ornaments are those which, in playful and conrapuntal fashion,
make the harmony more agreeable and sonorous, namely the lute, theorbo,
harp, lirone, cithern, spinet, chitarrino, violin, pandora, and the
like.
--- On Sun, 11/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson
hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Sunday, 11 December, 2011, 10:03
I suppose it could be said that the guitar would be covered by his
etc...
Also note he only mentions the 'chitarrino' (small 4 course
instrument?) in his list of embellishing instruments and omits
the larger (5 course) guitar. This, I suggest, implies that the
guitar
does indeed fit with the other continuo realisation instruments
covered
by the etc
Agazzari says: 'chitarrina', not 'chitarrino'.
What is a chitarrina? Was it strummed, like the chitarra spagnola?
Lex
To get on or off this list see list information at
[2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://icking-music-archive.org/ByComposer/Agazzari.html
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
Well, Oliver Strunk writes chitarrino. As far as I know, chitarrino, 4
course renaissance guitar, was not at all unknown in Italy in times of
Agazzari... But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that
does not exclude its existence... ;-)
best regards,
Arto
On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 10:28:58 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson
hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Thanks Lex
Well, I don't have a facsimile of Agazzari to hand so took the
(translated) text from this recommended ('excellent') translation (see
below) which gives 'chitarrino' . Does Agazzari write 'chitarrina' in
the original source? And what is a 'chitarrina' rather than, say, a
'chitarra' if not a smaller instrument?
regards
Martyn
...an excellent [sic] version of Agazzari's
article
by [1]Bernhard Lang in the Werner Icking Music Archive! All the text
is
in Italian, English and German!
... I must first ... classify them [instruments] ... into instruments
like a foundation and instruments like ornaments. Like foundation are
those which guide and support the whole body of of the voices and
instruments of the consort; such are the the organ, harpsichord, etc.,
and similarly when there are few voices, the lute, theorbo, harp, etc.
Like ornaments are those which, in playful and conrapuntal fashion,
make the harmony more agreeable and sonorous, namely the lute,
theorbo,
harp, lirone, cithern, spinet, chitarrino, violin, pandora, and the
like.
--- On Sun, 11/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson
hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Sunday, 11 December, 2011, 10:03
I suppose it could be said that the guitar would be covered by
his
etc...
Also note he only mentions the 'chitarrino' (small 4 course
instrument?) in his list of embellishing instruments and omits
the larger (5 course) guitar. This, I suggest, implies that the
guitar
does indeed fit with the other continuo realisation instruments
covered
by the etc
Agazzari says: 'chitarrina', not 'chitarrino'.
What is a chitarrina? Was it strummed, like the chitarra spagnola?
Lex
To get on or off this list see list information at
[2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://icking-music-archive.org/ByComposer/Agazzari.html
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 17:03:13 +0200, wikla wrote Well, Oliver Strunk writes chitarrino. As far as I know, chitarrino, 4 course renaissance guitar, was not at all unknown in Italy in times of Agazzari... Hmm, as if there where a fixed terminology at that time ... Thank's to those silly humanists writers, from the end of the 15. century on writers started to use 'chitarra' for all sorts of stinged instuments (plucked). So we have chitarra for 'lute' (Tincoris), harp (Glarean), (renaissance) guitar etc. Not to forget chitarrone (literally: huge chitarra). It might even be that Sgn. Agazzari wants to make a distinction between the chitarrone and smaller (treble) lutes here. To limit the translation of 'citarrin[a/o]' to renaissance guitar seems bold. But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) Then you missed something - yummy italian pasta!! [1] And not even totally off-topic here since the name probably refers to the production process: pressing some pasta dough through a wired frame (somehow like an oversized egg-cutter) that might remind one of a harp (-chitarra) :-) Cheers, Ralf Mattes [1] http://www.dececco.it/EN/Egg-Pasta/Specialities/chitarrina-abruzzese-all-uovo-399/?Prodotto=159 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
In the anonymous collection Conserto vago (published in Rome in 1645) there is a part for a chitarrino a quatro corde alla napolitana, here probably used for lute type, in plucked textures. Its tuning, with a fifth between the third and fourth courses, is essentially different from that of the chitarra spagnuola. On the other hand, in Pietro Millioni’s Corona del primo, secondo e terzo libro d’intavolatura di chitarra spagnola (1631) a four-course guitar is mentioned, the chitarrino, overo chitarra italiana, tuned like the first four courses of the common chitarra spagnuola. To be able to play the chords of alfabeto (from the tablature examples at the alfabeto chart) on this four-course instrument, one has to leave out the figures of the fifth course. By its tuning, the chitarrino napolitana from Conserto vago does not link up with the alfabeto tradition, as does Millioni’s chitarrino Italiana. If Agazzari had a chitarrino napolitana in mind—hand plucked or played with a plectrum, then there is more reason to suppose that melodic improvisations were played on it, as they were on the violin and pandora, which are mentioned in the same breath. best wishes, Lex - Original Message - From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] Well, Oliver Strunk writes chitarrino. As far as I know, chitarrino, 4 course renaissance guitar, was not at all unknown in Italy in times of Agazzari... But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) best regards, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
Ralf makes a great case that we can't assume chitarrino means guitar (I must try that pasta sometime), but maybe there's a bit of evidence here in what Lex says that shows the 4-course guitar was still active in the 17^th century, even in printed music. Jocelyn Well, Oliver Strunk writes chitarrino. As far as I know, chitarrino, 4 course renaissance guitar, was not at all unknown in Italy in times of Agazzari... Hmm, as if there where a fixed terminology at that time ... Thank's to those silly humanists writers, from the end of the 15. century on writers started to use 'chitarra' for all sorts of stinged instuments (plucked). So we have chitarra for 'lute' (Tincoris), harp (Glarean), (renaissance) guitar etc. Not to forget chitarrone (literally: huge chitarra). It might even be that Sgn. Agazzari wants to make a distinction between the chitarrone and smaller (treble) lutes here. To limit the translation of 'citarrin[a/o]' to renaissance guitar seems bold. But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) Then you missed something - yummy italian pasta!! [1] And not even totally off-topic here since the name probably refers to the production process: pressing some pasta dough through a wired frame (somehow like an oversized egg-cutter) that might remind one of a harp (-chitarra) :-) Cheers, Ralf Mattes From: Lex Eisenhardt [1]eisenha...@planet.nl Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 17:54:32 +0100 To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] In the anonymous collection Conserto vago (published in Rome in 1645) there is a part for a chitarrino a quatro corde alla napolitana, here probably used for lute type, in plucked textures. Its tuning, with a fifth between the third and fourth courses, is essentially different from that of the chitarra spagnuola. On the other hand, in Pietro Millioni's Corona del primo, secondo e terzo libro d'intavolatura di chitarra spagnola (1631) a four-course guitar is mentioned, the chitarrino, overo chitarra italiana, tuned like the first four courses of the common chitarra spagnuola. To be able to play the chords of alfabeto (from the tablature examples at the alfabeto chart) on this four-course instrument, one has to leave out the figures of the fifth course. By its tuning, the chitarrino napolitana from Conserto vago does not link up with the alfabeto tradition, as does Millioni's chitarrino Italiana. If Agazzari had a chitarrino napolitana in mind--hand plucked or played with a plectrum, then there is more reason to suppose that melodic improvisations were played on it, as they were on the violin and pandora, which are mentioned in the same breath. best wishes, Lex - Original Message - From: wikla [3]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt [6]eisenha...@planet.nl Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] Well, Oliver Strunk writes chitarrino. As far as I know, chitarrino, 4 course renaissance guitar, was not at all unknown in Italy in times of Agazzari... But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) best regards, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:eisenha...@planet.nl 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 4. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 5. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:eisenha...@planet.nl 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
(Apologies in advance if this is too far off topic!) Ah yes, one of my favorite instruments! The double-sided, wire strung chitarra di pasta (tuned with a key, and played with a primitive form of solid bow): [1]http://thefrontburner.us/main/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Chitarra-64 0x468-0040_274.jpg [2]http://forums.egullet.org/uploads/1177004089/gallery_14010_2363_5246 0.jpg In performance: [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreenv=v7FRfI0kpXo and for the luthiers among us: [4]http://forums.egullet.org/uploads/1177004089/gallery_14010_2363_5246 0.jpg But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) Then you missed something - yummy italian pasta!! [1] And not even totally off-topic here since the name probably refers to the production process: pressing some pasta dough through a wired frame (somehow like an oversized egg-cutter) that might remind one of a harp (-chitarra) :-) Cheers, Ralf Mattes [1] [5]http://www.dececco.it/EN/Egg-Pasta/Specialities/chitarrina-abruzz ese-all-uovo-399/?Prodotto=159 To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://thefrontburner.us/main/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Chitarra-640x468-0040_274.jpg 2. http://forums.egullet.org/uploads/1177004089/gallery_14010_2363_52460.jpg 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreenv=v7FRfI0kpXo 4. http://forums.egullet.org/uploads/1177004089/gallery_14010_2363_52460.jpg 5. http://www.dececco.it/EN/Egg-Pasta/Specialities/chitarrina-abruzzese-all-uovo-399/?Prodotto=159 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
The only one I was able to access was number four. It sounded delicious. Jocelyn From: Azalais [1]azal...@gmail.com Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 12:54:37 -0500 Cc: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] (Apologies in advance if this is too far off topic!) Ah yes, one of my favorite instruments! The double-sided, wire strung chitarra di pasta (tuned with a key, and played with a primitive form of solid bow): [1][3]http://thefrontburner.us/main/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Chitarra -64 0x468-0040_274.jpg [2][4]http://forums.egullet.org/uploads/1177004089/gallery_14010_2363_5 246 0.jpg In performance: [3][5]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreenv=v7FRfI0kpXo and for the luthiers among us: [4][6]http://forums.egullet.org/uploads/1177004089/gallery_14010_2363_5 246 0.jpg But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) Then you missed something - yummy italian pasta!! [1] And not even totally off-topic here since the name probably refers to the production process: pressing some pasta dough through a wired frame (somehow like an oversized egg-cutter) that might remind one of a harp (-chitarra) :-) Cheers, Ralf Mattes [1] [5][7]http://www.dececco.it/EN/Egg-Pasta/Specialities/chitarrina-abruzz ese-all-uovo-399/?Prodotto=159 To get on or off this list see list information at [6][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [9]http://thefrontburner.us/main/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Chitarra-64 0x468-0040_274.jpg 2. [10]http://forums.egullet.org/uploads/1177004089/gallery_14010_2363_524 60.jpg 3. [11]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreenv=v7FRfI0kpXo 4. [12]http://forums.egullet.org/uploads/1177004089/gallery_14010_2363_524 60.jpg 5. [13]http://www.dececco.it/EN/Egg-Pasta/Specialities/chitarrina-abruzzes e-all-uovo-399/?Prodotto=159 6. [14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:azal...@gmail.com 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://thefrontburner.us/main/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Chitarra-64 4. http://forums.egullet.org/uploads/1177004089/gallery_14010_2363_5246 5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreenv=v7FRfI0kpXo 6. http://forums.egullet.org/uploads/1177004089/gallery_14010_2363_5246 7. http://www.dececco.it/EN/Egg-Pasta/Specialities/chitarrina-abruzz 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. http://thefrontburner.us/main/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Chitarra-640x468-0040_274.jpg 10. http://forums.egullet.org/uploads/1177004089/gallery_14010_2363_52460.jpg 11. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreenv=v7FRfI0kpXo 12. http://forums.egullet.org/uploads/1177004089/gallery_14010_2363_52460.jpg 13. http://www.dececco.it/EN/Egg-Pasta/Specialities/chitarrina-abruzzese-all-uovo-399/?Prodotto=159 14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
What I was commenting on is the way the singers interpret the text. Monica - Original Message - From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? Dear Monica On Sat, 10 Dec 2011, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: ... The idea that because the ciaccona was originally a popular doesn't mean that anything based on it to be performed in a popular manner. Kapsberger's villanelle may have been popular songs but that doesn't seem to me to justify adding percussion to them as well as batteries of strummed instruments. ... An example of this is on a CD by the group L'Arpeggiata which includes a Ciaccona di Paradiso e dell'Inferno performed in a way that someone very aptly described to me as wink wink nudge nudge style. It's meant to be a serious dialogue about heaven and hell. I don't think groups these recordings really have any insight into the sensibilities of 17th century players. Perhaps you know Agostino Agazzari article 'Del sonare sopra il basso', published in 1607? It among other interesting matters makes it very clear that the orchestration could be _very_ rich in those days! I wouldn't be too eager to condemn L'Arpeggiata having no insight into the sensibilities of 17th century players as you wrote! I have some clips of Agazzari's article in my 16 years old page, see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/agazzari.html All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [Chitarra Italiana/o]
On 11/12/2011 16:17, R. Mattes wrote: Hmm, as if there where a fixed terminology at that time ... Thank's to those silly humanists writers, from the end of the 15. century on writers started to use 'chitarra' for all sorts of stinged instuments (plucked). So we have chitarra for 'lute' (Tincoris), harp (Glarean), (renaissance) guitar etc. Not to forget chitarrone (literally: huge chitarra). It might even be that Sgn. Agazzari wants to make a distinction between the chitarrone and smaller (treble) lutes here. To limit the translation of 'citarrin[a/o]' to renaissance guitar seems bold. Seems a good time to bring up the Chitarra Italiana.(Italiano) According to Schlegel and Luedtke, the term Chitarra does not mean the 8-shaped guitar but the Kithara, the plucked string instrument of ancient Greece. In the Renaissance its name was applied to a lute instrument. There were small Chitarini and the large Chitarone. To avoid confusion, the Italians right until the middle of the 17th century called the guitar, Chitarra Spagnuola. In their book, 'The Lute in Europe 2', they have a picture of an odd-looking 9-peg, five-course Chitarra Italiana. It has a lute body but the pegbox is more like that of a mandore or gittern. And here's the brief wiki entry: Chitarra Italiana is a lute-shaped plucked instrument with 4 or 5 single (sometimes double) strings, in a tuning similar to that of guitar. It was common in Italy during the Renaissance Era. It is believed to have descended from Panduras, the Mediterranean lutes of Antiquity, and to be related to north African Quitra (or Kitra). Its bass variety was known as Chitaronne. . I think this is all coming from the work of an Italian musicologist (whose name I can't remember nor find) who wrote on this topic in the 1990s. Possibly Monica once suggested that the well-known Calvi publication was for this instrument (and not a five-course guitar) It's strange that an awareness of this instrument only emerged in the 1990s. I don't think Tyler ever mentioned it. I've never come across any references to it other than the work of this Italian musicologist (and now Schlegel and Luedtke). I thought all the variations of chitarra, gittern, guitar etc have some ultimate roots in some actual or imagined Greek instrument It's not just a hypothesis working backwards from the actual existence of the chitarrone, is it? Stuart But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) Then you missed something - yummy italian pasta!! [1] And not even totally off-topic here since the name probably refers to the production process: pressing some pasta dough through a wired frame (somehow like an oversized egg-cutter) that might remind one of a harp (-chitarra) :-) Cheers, Ralf Mattes [1] [1]http://www.dececco.it/EN/Egg-Pasta/Specialities/chitarrina-abruzzese-all-uovo -399/?Prodotto=159 To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.dececco.it/EN/Egg-Pasta/Specialities/chitarrina-abruzzese-all-uovo-399/?Prodotto=159 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
On 11/12/2011 16:54, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: By its tuning, the chitarrino napolitana from Conserto vago does not link up with the alfabeto tradition, as does Millioni’s chitarrino Italiana. If Agazzari had a chitarrino napolitana in mind—hand plucked or played with a plectrum, then there is more reason to suppose that melodic improvisations were played on it, as they were on the violin and pandora Lex, What is a pandora? (obviously not a bandora) Stuart , which are mentioned in the same breath. best wishes, Lex - Original Message - From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] Well, Oliver Strunk writes chitarrino. As far as I know, chitarrino, 4 course renaissance guitar, was not at all unknown in Italy in times of Agazzari... But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) best regards, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [Chitarra Italiana/o]
Renato Meucci. RT - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de Cc: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi; Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 1:21 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [Chitarra Italiana/o] On 11/12/2011 16:17, R. Mattes wrote: Hmm, as if there where a fixed terminology at that time ... Thank's to those silly humanists writers, from the end of the 15. century on writers started to use 'chitarra' for all sorts of stinged instuments (plucked). So we have chitarra for 'lute' (Tincoris), harp (Glarean), (renaissance) guitar etc. Not to forget chitarrone (literally: huge chitarra). It might even be that Sgn. Agazzari wants to make a distinction between the chitarrone and smaller (treble) lutes here. To limit the translation of 'citarrin[a/o]' to renaissance guitar seems bold. Seems a good time to bring up the Chitarra Italiana.(Italiano) According to Schlegel and Luedtke, the term Chitarra does not mean the 8-shaped guitar but the Kithara, the plucked string instrument of ancient Greece. In the Renaissance its name was applied to a lute instrument. There were small Chitarini and the large Chitarone. To avoid confusion, the Italians right until the middle of the 17th century called the guitar, Chitarra Spagnuola. In their book, 'The Lute in Europe 2', they have a picture of an odd-looking 9-peg, five-course Chitarra Italiana. It has a lute body but the pegbox is more like that of a mandore or gittern. And here's the brief wiki entry: Chitarra Italiana is a lute-shaped plucked instrument with 4 or 5 single (sometimes double) strings, in a tuning similar to that of guitar. It was common in Italy during the Renaissance Era. It is believed to have descended from Panduras, the Mediterranean lutes of Antiquity, and to be related to north African Quitra (or Kitra). Its bass variety was known as Chitaronne. . I think this is all coming from the work of an Italian musicologist (whose name I can't remember nor find) who wrote on this topic in the 1990s. Possibly Monica once suggested that the well-known Calvi publication was for this instrument (and not a five-course guitar) It's strange that an awareness of this instrument only emerged in the 1990s. I don't think Tyler ever mentioned it. I've never come across any references to it other than the work of this Italian musicologist (and now Schlegel and Luedtke). I thought all the variations of chitarra, gittern, guitar etc have some ultimate roots in some actual or imagined Greek instrument It's not just a hypothesis working backwards from the actual existence of the chitarrone, is it? Stuart But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) Then you missed something - yummy italian pasta!! [1] And not even totally off-topic here since the name probably refers to the production process: pressing some pasta dough through a wired frame (somehow like an oversized egg-cutter) that might remind one of a harp (-chitarra) :-) Cheers, Ralf Mattes [1] [1]http://www.dececco.it/EN/Egg-Pasta/Specialities/chitarrina-abruzzese-all-uovo -399/?Prodotto=159 To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.dececco.it/EN/Egg-Pasta/Specialities/chitarrina-abruzzese-all-uovo-399/?Prodotto=159 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
Ancient Greek lute, ancestor of Balkan tamburas. RT - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 1:37 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] On 11/12/2011 16:54, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: By its tuning, the chitarrino napolitana from Conserto vago does not link up with the alfabeto tradition, as does Millioni’s chitarrino Italiana. If Agazzari had a chitarrino napolitana in mind—hand plucked or played with a plectrum, then there is more reason to suppose that melodic improvisations were played on it, as they were on the violin and pandora Lex, What is a pandora? (obviously not a bandora) Stuart , which are mentioned in the same breath. best wishes, Lex - Original Message - From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] Well, Oliver Strunk writes chitarrino. As far as I know, chitarrino, 4 course renaissance guitar, was not at all unknown in Italy in times of Agazzari... But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) best regards, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
On 11/12/2011 18:39, Roman Turovsky wrote: Ancient Greek lute, ancestor of Balkan tamburas. RT - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 1:37 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] On 11/12/2011 16:54, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: By its tuning, the chitarrino napolitana from Conserto vago does not link up with the alfabeto tradition, as does Millioni’s chitarrino Italiana. If Agazzari had a chitarrino napolitana in mind—hand plucked or played with a plectrum, then there is more reason to suppose that melodic improvisations were played on it, as they were on the violin and pandora Lex, What is a pandora? (obviously not a bandora) Stuart , which are mentioned in the same breath. best wishes, Lex - Original Message - From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] Well, Oliver Strunk writes chitarrino. As far as I know, chitarrino, 4 course renaissance guitar, was not at all unknown in Italy in times of Agazzari... But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that does not exclude its existence... ;-) best regards, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
I think Oliver Strunk is wrong. I have read the relevant passages in
Agazzari and according to my notes the instrument in question is referred
to as a chitarrina.
That said I don't think that you can make a clear distinction simply on the
basis of variant spelling.
What Agazzarri says is that there are two groups of instruments. Group 1
includes keyboard instruments. Group 2 includes Leuto, Tiorba, Arpa,
Lirone, Cetera, Spinetto, Chitarrina, violino, pandora altri simile”.
He also says that some stringed instruments can reproduce the bass part as
well - i.e. the lute arpa doppia and some are imperfect i.e. cetera
ordinaria, lirone, chitarrina, viola, violin, pandora.
I think that it is far from certain that the chitarrina/o was guitar
shaped.
If you read the article by Meucci it does seem fairly clear that the
4-course guitar
was unknown in Italy. The 5-course instrument was a novelty. A
chitarrina/o is a small lute.
Millioni is a bit different since the tuning corresponds to the first 4
courses of the 5-course instrument. But it wasn't printed until 1631 -
incidentally after Amat's book which does mention the 4-course guitar.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 3:03 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
Well, Oliver Strunk writes chitarrino. As far as I know, chitarrino, 4
course renaissance guitar, was not at all unknown in Italy in times of
Agazzari... But I have never heard about chitarrina, but of course that
does not exclude its existence... ;-)
best regards,
Arto
On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 10:28:58 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson
hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Thanks Lex
Well, I don't have a facsimile of Agazzari to hand so took the
(translated) text from this recommended ('excellent') translation (see
below) which gives 'chitarrino' . Does Agazzari write 'chitarrina' in
the original source? And what is a 'chitarrina' rather than, say, a
'chitarra' if not a smaller instrument?
regards
Martyn
...an excellent [sic] version of Agazzari's
article
by [1]Bernhard Lang in the Werner Icking Music Archive! All the text
is
in Italian, English and German!
... I must first ... classify them [instruments] ... into instruments
like a foundation and instruments like ornaments. Like foundation are
those which guide and support the whole body of of the voices and
instruments of the consort; such are the the organ, harpsichord, etc.,
and similarly when there are few voices, the lute, theorbo, harp, etc.
Like ornaments are those which, in playful and conrapuntal fashion,
make the harmony more agreeable and sonorous, namely the lute,
theorbo,
harp, lirone, cithern, spinet, chitarrino, violin, pandora, and the
like.
--- On Sun, 11/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson
hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Sunday, 11 December, 2011, 10:03
I suppose it could be said that the guitar would be covered by
his
etc...
Also note he only mentions the 'chitarrino' (small 4 course
instrument?) in his list of embellishing instruments and omits
the larger (5 course) guitar. This, I suggest, implies that the
guitar
does indeed fit with the other continuo realisation instruments
covered
by the etc
Agazzari says: 'chitarrina', not 'chitarrino'.
What is a chitarrina? Was it strummed, like the chitarra spagnola?
Lex
To get on or off this list see list information at
[2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://icking-music-archive.org/ByComposer/Agazzari.html
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
A pandora is a lute shaped wire-strung instrument. It is one of the instruments which forms part of the broken consort for which Morley et al composed music. Monica - Original Message - From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 6:42 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] What is a pandora? (obviously not a bandora) Agazzari's boombox? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandura RT From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk A pandora is a lute shaped wire-strung instrument. It is one of the instruments which forms part of the broken consort for which Morley et al composed music. Monica - Original Message - From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 6:42 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] What is a pandora? (obviously not a bandora) Agazzari's boombox? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
I am afraid that we have opened the Pandora's box ... ;-) Arto On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 18:55:52 -, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: A pandora is a lute shaped wire-strung instrument. It is one of the instruments which forms part of the broken consort for which Morley et al composed music. Monica - Original Message - From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 6:42 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] What is a pandora? (obviously not a bandora) Agazzari's boombox? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] On 11/12/2011 18:55, Monica Hall wrote: A pandora is a lute shaped wire-strung instrument. It is one of the instruments which forms part of the broken consort for which Morley et al composed music. Monica Not lute-shaped, Monica! Well - it is sort of scalloped isn't it. Definitely not guitar-shaped. Monica Stuart - Original Message - From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 6:42 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] What is a pandora? (obviously not a bandora) Agazzari's boombox? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
When it comes to plucked stringed instruments that is certainly true. Monica - Original Message - From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 7:07 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] I am afraid that we have opened the Pandora's box ... ;-) Arto On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 18:55:52 -, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: A pandora is a lute shaped wire-strung instrument. It is one of the instruments which forms part of the broken consort for which Morley et al composed music. Monica - Original Message - From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 6:42 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] What is a pandora? (obviously not a bandora) Agazzari's boombox? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]
Dear Monica, The pandora or bandora is not shaped like a lute. It is like a big orpharion, and has wiggly sides. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 11 December 2011 18:56 To: Lex Eisenhardt Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?] A pandora is a lute shaped wire-strung instrument. It is one of the instruments which forms part of the broken consort for which Morley et al composed music. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
