[VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
That is a very helpful answer. Clearly some dissonance is intentional but
not so much as many players assume.
In particular the dissonant Chord L occurs for a specific reason - because
the consonant form is awkward to play - and it isn't used that often. I
don't thing it justifies arguuing that a similar dissonance is intended when
there is no obvious practical reason for not doing the correct thing.
As ever
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Lex Eisenhardt"
To: "'Martyn Hodgson'" ; "'Monica Hall'"
; "'WALSH STUART'"
Cc: "'Vihuelalist'"
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 10:35 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
If I understand him right, Jackson doesn't suggest that these
dissonances were _never_ doubled in (solo) accompaniment to the solo
voice. To me the examples he gives were a reason to reconsider present
practices.
And indeed the example under discussion is from a solo piece. However,
even if 3/4 clashes are quite common with some composers, it feels
uncomfortable that this particular 3-4-3 cadence d#' - e' - d#' ( - e')
seems never to appear with the open e' included in his book (if I am
right). Neither in the continuo examples, nor in the solo's.
And as a reply to Monica's last post: also I think that the open e'
strings in these examples (Dean p. 263-4) are not clearly intended to
ring on. I would not play it like that.
Best wishes, Lex
Van: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
Verzonden: woensdag 20 november 2013 9:43
Aan: Lex Eisenhardt; 'Monica Hall'; 'WALSH STUART'
CC: 'Vihuelalist'
Onderwerp: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
Thank you for this Lex.
Of course here Jackson is speaking about continuo practice where the
harmonic clash is already there in other vocal and/or instrumental
lines. But in the Matteis example this is a guitar solo.
Incidentally I'm not entirely convinced by Jackson's paper (and the
slightly selective examples) that the practice of never doubling
dissonances in the context was generally universally applied
historically.
regards
Martyn
___
From: Lex Eisenhardt <[1]eisenha...@planet.nl>
To: 'Martyn Hodgson' <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; 'Monica Hall'
<[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; 'WALSH STUART' <[4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Cc: 'Vihuelalist' <[5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, 19 November 2013, 16:51
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
For an on-line article by Roland Jackson, about all sorts of harmonic
clashes, follow the download link
[6]http://scholarship.claremont.edu/ppr/vol11/iss1/2/
Lex
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: [7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth..edu
[mailto:[8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens
Martyn Hodgson
Verzonden: zaterdag 16 november 2013 10:26
Aan: Monica Hall; WALSH STUART
CC: Vihuelalist
Onderwerp: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
Dear Monica,
This is all a question of context; mostly to do with expected
cadential
effects and the prevailing tonality of the melodic line.
1. For example a dissonance of seconds at a cadence was a common
practice at the time; both in orchestral writing as well as on the
guitar etc. The effect even has a modern name: the 'Corelli clash'
after his frequent use of it. Typically this occurs at a cadence
where
the (sharp) third of the dominant (the sharpened leading note) is
sounded concurrently with an anticipated tonic (so for a cadence
ending
with a G major chord an F# is sounded together with a G). It is, in
my
view, important to play this effect with 'boldness and conviction'
to
ensure auditors don't think it's a mistake! In short, it is by no
means
too exotic for the period as you suppose below ('Just talking about
the last two bars of line three: playing the top and bottom courses
open sounds quite rich and exotic! But perhaps far too rich for its
surroundings').
So the B to Em cadence at the end of the third line on page 2 of the
1682 publication with a D# and E sounding concurrently is perfectly
correct. I suppose you could throw in the open fifth course too (to
give a 7th A) but this is not really in line with general practice
at
that time (use of sevenths at cadences became much more common in the
18th century).
2. However where there is no such cadential (or similar effect)
context, contemporary auditors would not have expected such rude
clashes interfering with the melodic line. So, for example on the
same
line and 4 bars from the end, the D chord on the second beat would
not
have the first course added (an open e' according to Matteis' guitar
tuning) - Matteis either overlooked this or took it as read that a
player would not need to be told. Similarly in the 'Aria' at the
beginning of page 4 the player should not include non-melodic notes
(such as an open e' on the
[VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
If I understand him right, Jackson doesn't suggest that these
dissonances were _never_ doubled in (solo) accompaniment to the solo
voice. To me the examples he gives were a reason to reconsider present
practices.
And indeed the example under discussion is from a solo piece. However,
even if 3/4 clashes are quite common with some composers, it feels
uncomfortable that this particular 3-4-3 cadence d#' - e' - d#' ( - e')
seems never to appear with the open e' included in his book (if I am
right). Neither in the continuo examples, nor in the solo's.
And as a reply to Monica's last post: also I think that the open e'
strings in these examples (Dean p. 263-4) are not clearly intended to
ring on. I would not play it like that.
Best wishes, Lex
Van: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
Verzonden: woensdag 20 november 2013 9:43
Aan: Lex Eisenhardt; 'Monica Hall'; 'WALSH STUART'
CC: 'Vihuelalist'
Onderwerp: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
Thank you for this Lex.
Of course here Jackson is speaking about continuo practice where the
harmonic clash is already there in other vocal and/or instrumental
lines. But in the Matteis example this is a guitar solo.
Incidentally I'm not entirely convinced by Jackson's paper (and the
slightly selective examples) that the practice of never doubling
dissonances in the context was generally universally applied
historically.
regards
Martyn
___
From: Lex Eisenhardt <[1]eisenha...@planet.nl>
To: 'Martyn Hodgson' <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; 'Monica Hall'
<[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; 'WALSH STUART' <[4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Cc: 'Vihuelalist' <[5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, 19 November 2013, 16:51
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
For an on-line article by Roland Jackson, about all sorts of harmonic
clashes, follow the download link
[6]http://scholarship.claremont.edu/ppr/vol11/iss1/2/
Lex
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: [7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth..edu
[mailto:[8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens
Martyn Hodgson
Verzonden: zaterdag 16 november 2013 10:26
Aan: Monica Hall; WALSH STUART
CC: Vihuelalist
Onderwerp: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
Dear Monica,
This is all a question of context; mostly to do with expected
cadential
effects and the prevailing tonality of the melodic line.
1. For example a dissonance of seconds at a cadence was a common
practice at the time; both in orchestral writing as well as on the
guitar etc. The effect even has a modern name: the 'Corelli clash'
after his frequent use of it. Typically this occurs at a cadence
where
the (sharp) third of the dominant (the sharpened leading note) is
sounded concurrently with an anticipated tonic (so for a cadence
ending
with a G major chord an F# is sounded together with a G). It is, in
my
view, important to play this effect with 'boldness and conviction'
to
ensure auditors don't think it's a mistake! In short, it is by no
means
too exotic for the period as you suppose below ('Just talking about
the last two bars of line three: playing the top and bottom courses
open sounds quite rich and exotic! But perhaps far too rich for its
surroundings').
So the B to Em cadence at the end of the third line on page 2 of the
1682 publication with a D# and E sounding concurrently is perfectly
correct. I suppose you could throw in the open fifth course too (to
give a 7th A) but this is not really in line with general practice
at
that time (use of sevenths at cadences became much more common in the
18th century).
2. However where there is no such cadential (or similar effect)
context, contemporary auditors would not have expected such rude
clashes interfering with the melodic line. So, for example on the
same
line and 4 bars from the end, the D chord on the second beat would
not
have the first course added (an open e' according to Matteis' guitar
tuning) - Matteis either overlooked this or took it as read that a
player would not need to be told. Similarly in the 'Aria' at the
beginning of page 4 the player should not include non-melodic notes
(such as an open e' on the first beat of the first full bar or the
open
b and e' on the first beat of the next bar). It simply requires
careful control of the strum - perhaps some guitarists basing their
early strumming technique on modern flamenco rasgueado may find this
more difficult but, of course, it's no reason to believe the Old Ones
were not technically capable/accomplished to achieve such refined
playing.
There's also a parallel with unwritten practice in continuo playing:-
here sometimes a sixth cord is not figured at all - it
[VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
Returning to Dean and Matteis - on p. 263-4 Dean has given three examples
of a 7-6 suspension over the note F on the 4th course. (p.49. 41 & 64 in
Matteis) The 7th - E - is played on the open 1st course and resolves
downward onto the D played on the 2nd course. Straightforward you would
think but Dean claims that the open course will "ring on" when the D is
played creating a cadential clash and that Matteis has "taken advantage of
the ease which the F major (sic - it's really a D minor) chord shape can be
fingered whilst still allowing the 1st course to ring".
Well - it certainly doesn't ring on when I play it - the note dies almost
immediately and you can't actually play a 7-6 suspension on F in any other
way. Any resemblance to Chord L seems to me to be an illusion.
I think Dean is reading far too much into these things. The reason for
asking these questions is that someone else has asked me. I disagree with
a lot of what Dean says - but I would like to give an unbiased reply.
I personally would not include the open courses in the examples we were
discussing previously.
As ever
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Lex Eisenhardt" ; "'Monica Hall'"
; "'WALSH STUART'"
Cc: "'Vihuelalist'"
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 8:43 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
Thank you for this Lex.
Of course here Jackson is speaking about continuo practice where the
harmonic clash is already there in other vocal and/or instrumental
lines. But in the Matteis example this is a guitar solo.
Incidentally I'm not entirely convinced by Jackson's paper (and the
slightly selective examples) that the practice of never doubling
dissonances in the context was generally universally applied
historically.
regards
Martyn
__
From: Lex Eisenhardt
To: 'Martyn Hodgson' ; 'Monica Hall'
; 'WALSH STUART'
Cc: 'Vihuelalist'
Sent: Tuesday, 19 November 2013, 16:51
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
For an on-line article by Roland Jackson, about all sorts of harmonic
clashes, follow the download link
[1]http://scholarship.claremont.edu/ppr/vol11/iss1/2/
Lex
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
Namens
Martyn Hodgson
Verzonden: zaterdag 16 november 2013 10:26
Aan: Monica Hall; WALSH STUART
CC: Vihuelalist
Onderwerp: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
Dear Monica,
This is all a question of context; mostly to do with expected
cadential
effects and the prevailing tonality of the melodic line.
1. For example a dissonance of seconds at a cadence was a common
practice at the time; both in orchestral writing as well as on the
guitar etc. The effect even has a modern name: the 'Corelli clash'
after his frequent use of it. Typically this occurs at a cadence
where
the (sharp) third of the dominant (the sharpened leading note) is
sounded concurrently with an anticipated tonic (so for a cadence
ending
with a G major chord an F# is sounded together with a G). It is, in
my
view, important to play this effect with 'boldness and conviction'
to
ensure auditors don't think it's a mistake! In short, it is by no
means
too exotic for the period as you suppose below ('Just talking about
the last two bars of line three: playing the top and bottom courses
open sounds quite rich and exotic! But perhaps far too rich for its
surroundings').
So the B to Em cadence at the end of the third line on page 2 of the
1682 publication with a D# and E sounding concurrently is perfectly
correct. I suppose you could throw in the open fifth course too (to
give a 7th A) but this is not really in line with general practice
at
that time (use of sevenths at cadences became much more common in the
18th century).
2. However where there is no such cadential (or similar effect)
context, contemporary auditors would not have expected such rude
clashes interfering with the melodic line. So, for example on the
same
line and 4 bars from the end, the D chord on the second beat would
not
have the first course added (an open e' according to Matteis' guitar
tuning) - Matteis either overlooked this or took it as read that a
player would not need to be told. Similarly in the 'Aria' at the
beginning of page 4 the player should not include non-melodic notes
(such as an open e' on the first beat of the first full bar or the
open
b and e' on the first beat of the next bar). It simply requires
careful control of the strum - perhaps some guitarists basing their
early strumming technique on modern flamenco rasgueado may find this
more difficult but, of course, it's no reason to believe the Old Ones
were not technically capable/accomplished to achieve such refined
playing.
There's also a parallel
[VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
Thank you for this Lex.
Of course here Jackson is speaking about continuo practice where the
harmonic clash is already there in other vocal and/or instrumental
lines. But in the Matteis example this is a guitar solo.
Incidentally I'm not entirely convinced by Jackson's paper (and the
slightly selective examples) that the practice of never doubling
dissonances in the context was generally universally applied
historically.
regards
Martyn
__
From: Lex Eisenhardt
To: 'Martyn Hodgson' ; 'Monica Hall'
; 'WALSH STUART'
Cc: 'Vihuelalist'
Sent: Tuesday, 19 November 2013, 16:51
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
For an on-line article by Roland Jackson, about all sorts of harmonic
clashes, follow the download link
[1]http://scholarship.claremont.edu/ppr/vol11/iss1/2/
Lex
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
Namens
Martyn Hodgson
Verzonden: zaterdag 16 november 2013 10:26
Aan: Monica Hall; WALSH STUART
CC: Vihuelalist
Onderwerp: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
Dear Monica,
This is all a question of context; mostly to do with expected
cadential
effects and the prevailing tonality of the melodic line.
1. For example a dissonance of seconds at a cadence was a common
practice at the time; both in orchestral writing as well as on the
guitar etc. The effect even has a modern name: the 'Corelli clash'
after his frequent use of it. Typically this occurs at a cadence
where
the (sharp) third of the dominant (the sharpened leading note) is
sounded concurrently with an anticipated tonic (so for a cadence
ending
with a G major chord an F# is sounded together with a G). It is, in
my
view, important to play this effect with 'boldness and conviction'
to
ensure auditors don't think it's a mistake! In short, it is by no
means
too exotic for the period as you suppose below ('Just talking about
the last two bars of line three: playing the top and bottom courses
open sounds quite rich and exotic! But perhaps far too rich for its
surroundings').
So the B to Em cadence at the end of the third line on page 2 of the
1682 publication with a D# and E sounding concurrently is perfectly
correct. I suppose you could throw in the open fifth course too (to
give a 7th A) but this is not really in line with general practice
at
that time (use of sevenths at cadences became much more common in the
18th century).
2. However where there is no such cadential (or similar effect)
context, contemporary auditors would not have expected such rude
clashes interfering with the melodic line. So, for example on the
same
line and 4 bars from the end, the D chord on the second beat would
not
have the first course added (an open e' according to Matteis' guitar
tuning) - Matteis either overlooked this or took it as read that a
player would not need to be told. Similarly in the 'Aria' at the
beginning of page 4 the player should not include non-melodic notes
(such as an open e' on the first beat of the first full bar or the
open
b and e' on the first beat of the next bar). It simply requires
careful control of the strum - perhaps some guitarists basing their
early strumming technique on modern flamenco rasgueado may find this
more difficult but, of course, it's no reason to believe the Old Ones
were not technically capable/accomplished to achieve such refined
playing.
There's also a parallel with unwritten practice in continuo playing:-
here sometimes a sixth cord is not figured at all - it being assumed
that the player has sufficient knowledge of basic rules of harmony
that
in a particular key sequence such bass notes will generally need
first
inversion chords (unless otherwise indicated).
regards,
Martyn
PS Incidentally, I find it easier to follow a discussion if the
responder does not interweave their reply with the sender's text -
but
perhaps that's just me
__
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References
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2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
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