[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Unfortunately the source - the Gallot ms. - gives no information about the stringing or tuning or for that matter the pitch. Therein lies the problem. The method of stringing suggested in the article eliminates all the quirks in the music, in particular the skip of a 7th in the bass line which occurs frequently. You really need to read the article to understand the problem. I could send you a copy if you are interested. I would be interested to know what you think about the practicalities of it. As ever Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 15:35 Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > > Why are the first five open (unstopped) basses thought to be at the lower > octave? - is the source absolutely clear and wholly unambiguous about this ( > I've not yet seen the EM article myself)? > > Leaving aside the length of the long basses required to extend the range > down to contrabass ,B and the quality of sound, a practical problem with > this tuning (as you clearly set it out from the EM article) would seem to be > the large gap below the third course (g) and the next stoppable course (c). > However, if the first five unstopped basses were at the upper octave they > would then continue directly scalewise downwards from the third course: ie g > f e d c B. with the last two unstopped basses at the upper octave of a g > (because of string technology limitations perhaps) as you/the paper > indicates (or they could be an octave down thus simply extending the > scalewise sequence down as on, say, a the contemporary theorbo or > archlute.). > > Of course, with this arrangement the c and b would be duplicated as open > strings, but the stopped pair would be fully chromatic . > > Or perhaps I've misunderstood .. > > Marty > > > On Wednesday, 12 June 2019, 14:15:27 BST, Monica Hall > wrote: > > > Well - the pieces in the Gallot Ms. - the only known source of music for > the instrument - are all solo pieces and are in C major or C minor. Some are > found in other arrangements in other sources - one of them is in Scottish > Lute Ms. âPamure 5â and is on your CD. > > The two lowest course seem to be used just as frequently as the others. > In the ms. the courses are numbered a/ a// a/// 4 5 6 7 just to > confuse. > > As ever > Monica > > > > On 12 June 2019 at 13:59 Rob MacKillop < robmackil...@gmail.com > mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > I see. I imagine such an instrument was mainly used for accompaniment, > with some solos being composed as well. The main keys for a baroque guitar > include Dm, C, E, and F. Having the F diapason close to the fretboard would > be useful for the keys of F, C and Dm. Perhaps the notes a and g were less > helpful for accompaniment situations, so were shoved out of the way from the > main action. But I don't know... > > > > Rob > > > > On 12 June 2019, at 13:51, Monica Hall < mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > > > Sorry if it is not clear. It is a twelve course instrument. There are > five courses on the fingerboard and seven unstopped basses. > > > > From 1st course down the tuning is > > > > e' c' g c B (1-5 on the fingerboard); unstopped courses are F E D C > B,(B below the bass stave) a g; 6-12 unstopped. > > > > There is a gap between the courses on the fingerboard and the open > basses. > > > > It is the arrangement of the unstopped courses on the instrument which > would be unusual. The two thinnest strings are placed in the outside position. > > > > What puzzles me is what possible advantage might there be to this. > > > > One thing is certain - either the open basses overlap with the courses > on the fingerboard or there is a gap between the 5th and 6th courses. > > > > The new arrangement fills in the gap by placing the 11th and 12th > courses in the upper octave. > > > > As ever. > > > > Monica > > > > > > > On 12 June 2019 at 12:45 Rob MacKillop < robmackil...@gmail.com > mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > >Monica, > > > > > >To save confusion, please use the standard method of describing > courses: the first string is always the first course. > > > > > >So, descending from 1st course down to 12th course the tuning you > describe appears to be: > > > > > >Fretted: e' c' g c B Unfretted: B C D E F a g > > > > > >Is that correct? If so, that is highly unusual, so please correct > me if I'm wrong. > > > > > >Rob MacKillop > > > > > > > > > > > >On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 12:07, Monica Hall < > mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto: > mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > > > > >?space?-- The latest issue of Early
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Why are the first five open (unstopped) basses thought to be at the lower octave? - is the source absolutely clear and wholly unambiguous about this (I've not yet seen the EM article myself)? Leaving aside the length of the long basses required to extend the range down to contrabass ,B and the quality of sound, a practical problem with this tuning (as you clearly set it out from the EM article) would seem to be the large gap below the third course (g) and the next stoppable course (c). However, if the first five unstopped basses were at the upper octave they would then continue directly scalewise downwards from the third course: ie g f e d c B. with the last two unstopped basses at the upper octave of a g (because of string technology limitations perhaps) as you/the paper indicates (or they could be an octave down thus simply extending the scalewise sequence down as on, say, a the contemporary theorbo or archlute.). Of course, with this arrangement the c and b would be duplicated as open strings, but the stopped pair would be fully chromatic . Or perhaps I've misunderstood .. Marty On Wednesday, 12 June 2019, 14:15:27 BST, Monica Hall wrote: Well - the pieces in the Gallot Ms. - the only known source of music for the instrument - are all solo pieces and are in C major or C minor. Some are found in other arrangements in other sources - one of them is in Scottish Lute Ms. "Pamure 5" and is on your CD. The two lowest course seem to be used just as frequently as the others. In the ms. the courses are numbered a/ a// a/// 4 5 6 7 just to confuse. As ever Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 13:59 Rob MacKillop <[1]robmackil...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I see. I imagine such an instrument was mainly used for accompaniment, with some solos being composed as well. The main keys for a baroque guitar include Dm, C, E, and F. Having the F diapason close to the fretboard would be useful for the keys of F, C and Dm. Perhaps the notes a and g were less helpful for accompaniment situations, so were shoved out of the way from the main action. But I don't know... > > Rob > > On 12 June 2019, at 13:51, Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > Sorry if it is not clear. It is a twelve course instrument. There are five courses on the fingerboard and seven unstopped basses. > > From 1st course down the tuning is > > e' c' g c B (1-5 on the fingerboard); unstopped courses are F E D C B,(B below the bass stave) a g; 6-12 unstopped. > > There is a gap between the courses on the fingerboard and the open basses. > > It is the arrangement of the unstopped courses on the instrument which would be unusual. The two thinnest strings are placed in the outside position. > > What puzzles me is what possible advantage might there be to this. > > One thing is certain - either the open basses overlap with the courses on the fingerboard or there is a gap between the 5th and 6th courses. > > The new arrangement fills in the gap by placing the 11th and 12th courses in the upper octave. > > As ever. > > Monica > > > > On 12 June 2019 at 12:45 Rob MacKillop <[3]robmackil...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >Monica, > > > >To save confusion, please use the standard method of describing courses: the first string is always the first course. > > > >So, descending from 1st course down to 12th course the tuning you describe appears to be: > > > >Fretted: e' c' g c B Unfretted: B C D E F a g > > > >Is that correct? If so, that is highly unusual, so please correct me if I'm wrong. > > > >Rob MacKillop > > > > > > > >On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 12:07, Monica Hall < [4]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:[5]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > > >?space?-- The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on the guitarre >theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different >from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - > >on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B > >1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, > >6th-7th unstopped courses - a g > >(nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) > >in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest >note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is >filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but >out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in >the strictest sense of the term. > >This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it >eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. > >I know that the theorbo sometimes had the
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Well - the pieces in the Gallot Ms. - the only known source of music for the instrument - are all solo pieces and are in C major or C minor. Some are found in other arrangements in other sources - one of them is in Scottish Lute Ms. “Pamure 5” and is on your CD. The two lowest course seem to be used just as frequently as the others. In the ms. the courses are numbered a/ a// a/// 4 5 6 7 just to confuse. As ever Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 13:59 Rob MacKillop wrote: > > > I see. I imagine such an instrument was mainly used for accompaniment, with > some solos being composed as well. The main keys for a baroque guitar include > Dm, C, E, and F. Having the F diapason close to the fretboard would be useful > for the keys of F, C and Dm. Perhaps the notes a and g were less helpful for > accompaniment situations, so were shoved out of the way from the main action. > But I don't know... > > Rob > > On 12 June 2019, at 13:51, Monica Hall wrote: > > Sorry if it is not clear. It is a twelve course instrument. There are five > courses on the fingerboard and seven unstopped basses. > > From 1st course down the tuning is > > e' c' g c B (1-5 on the fingerboard); unstopped courses are F E D C B,(B > below the bass stave) a g; 6-12 unstopped. > > There is a gap between the courses on the fingerboard and the open basses. > > It is the arrangement of the unstopped courses on the instrument which would > be unusual. The two thinnest strings are placed in the outside position. > > What puzzles me is what possible advantage might there be to this. > > One thing is certain - either the open basses overlap with the courses on the > fingerboard or there is a gap between the 5th and 6th courses. > > The new arrangement fills in the gap by placing the 11th and 12th courses in > the upper octave. > > As ever. > > Monica > > > > On 12 June 2019 at 12:45 Rob MacKillop wrote: > > > > Monica, > > > > To save confusion, please use the standard method of describing > > courses: the first string is always the first course. > > > > So, descending from 1st course down to 12th course the tuning you > > describe appears to be: > > > > Fretted: e' c' g c B Unfretted: B C D E F a g > > > > Is that correct? If so, that is highly unusual, so please correct me if > > I'm wrong. > > > > Rob MacKillop > > > > > > > > On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 12:07, Monica Hall < mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > > > ?space?-- The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on > > the guitarre >theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different >from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - > >on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B > >1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, > >6th-7th unstopped courses - a g > >(nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) > >in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest >note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is >filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but >out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in >the strictest sense of the term. > >This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it >eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. > >I know that the theorbo sometimes had the lowest course or lowest two >course re-entrant but these are not out of sequence. There is no gap >between the stopped courses and diapasons. > >Does anyone know of any examples of a theorbo or other instrument where >there is a gap between the stopped courses and the diapasons? > >What are the advantages to having the diapasons out of sequence like >this. Are there any practical advantages either when constructing the >instrument or when playing it? The strings will be of the same guage >wherever they are positioned on the instrument. > >Food for thought. > >As ever > >Monica > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > --
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Sorry if it is not clear. It is a twelve course instrument. There are five courses on the fingerboard and seven unstopped basses. >From 1st course down the tuning is e' c' g c B (1-5 on the fingerboard); unstopped courses are F E D C B,(B below the bass stave) a g; 6-12 unstopped. There is a gap between the courses on the fingerboard and the open basses. It is the arrangement of the unstopped courses on the instrument which would be unusual. The two thinnest strings are placed in the outside position. What puzzles me is what possible advantage might there be to this. One thing is certain - either the open basses overlap with the courses on the fingerboard or there is a gap between the 5th and 6th courses. The new arrangement fills in the gap by placing the 11th and 12th courses in the upper octave. As ever. Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 12:45 Rob MacKillop wrote: > > Monica, > > To save confusion, please use the standard method of describing courses: > the first string is always the first course. > > So, descending from 1st course down to 12th course the tuning you > describe appears to be: > > Fretted: e' c' g c B Unfretted: B C D E F a g > > Is that correct? If so, that is highly unusual, so please correct me if > I'm wrong. > > Rob MacKillop > > > > On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 12:07, Monica Hall < mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > ?space?-- The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on the > guitarre theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B 1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, 6th-7th unstopped courses - a g (nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in the strictest sense of the term. This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. I know that the theorbo sometimes had the lowest course or lowest two course re-entrant but these are not out of sequence. There is no gap between the stopped courses and diapasons. Does anyone know of any examples of a theorbo or other instrument where there is a gap between the stopped courses and the diapasons? What are the advantages to having the diapasons out of sequence like this. Are there any practical advantages either when constructing the instrument or when playing it? The strings will be of the same guage wherever they are positioned on the instrument. Food for thought. As ever Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
To clarify - the fifth unstopped course is an octave lower than the fifth course on the fingerboard. In Helmholtz notation the low b is shown as B, = i.e. upper case B with a comma after it - this isn't very clear in my message. It is not entirely unusual to have the two lowest courses a tone apart. I believe this is sometimes the case with the mandora and recently I discovered that there is late 18th century music for a 6-string guitar by Christian Gottlieb Scheidler with the 6th string a tone below the 5th i.e. G. Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 12:31 SW wrote: > > > Monica, this tuning seems very odd? Fifth course a semitone lower than fourth > course? Same note B on two courses (fifth course on fingerboard and fifth > unstopped course)? > > > > On 12 June 2019, at 12:08, Monica Hall wrote: > >The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on the guitarre >theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different >from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - > >on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B > >1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, > >6th-7th unstopped courses - a g > >(nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) > >in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest >note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is >filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but >out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in >the strictest sense of the term. > >This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it >eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. > >I know that the theorbo sometimes had the lowest course or lowest two >course re-entrant but these are not out of sequence. There is no gap >between the stopped courses and diapasons. > >Does anyone know of any examples of a theorbo or other instrument where >there is a gap between the stopped courses and the diapasons? > >What are the advantages to having the diapasons out of sequence like >this. Are there any practical advantages either when constructing the >instrument or when playing it? The strings will be of the same guage >wherever they are positioned on the instrument. > >Food for thought. > >As ever > >Monica > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Monica, this tuning seems very odd? Fifth course a semitone lower than fourth course? Same note B on two courses (fifth course on fingerboard and fifth unstopped course)? On 12 June 2019, at 12:08, Monica Hall wrote: The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on the guitarre theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B 1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, 6th-7th unstopped courses - a g (nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in the strictest sense of the term. This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. I know that the theorbo sometimes had the lowest course or lowest two course re-entrant but these are not out of sequence. There is no gap between the stopped courses and diapasons. Does anyone know of any examples of a theorbo or other instrument where there is a gap between the stopped courses and the diapasons? What are the advantages to having the diapasons out of sequence like this. Are there any practical advantages either when constructing the instrument or when playing it? The strings will be of the same guage wherever they are positioned on the instrument. Food for thought. As ever Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee
The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on the guitarre theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B 1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, 6th-7th unstopped courses - a g (nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in the strictest sense of the term. This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. I know that the theorbo sometimes had the lowest course or lowest two course re-entrant but these are not out of sequence. There is no gap between the stopped courses and diapasons. Does anyone know of any examples of a theorbo or other instrument where there is a gap between the stopped courses and the diapasons? What are the advantages to having the diapasons out of sequence like this. Are there any practical advantages either when constructing the instrument or when playing it? The strings will be of the same guage wherever they are positioned on the instrument. Food for thought. As ever Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
