[VIHUELA] Birds
Dear collective wisdom We've been invited to play at an early music festival. The theme this year will be birds. Do you know any piece about birds for baroque guitar or theorbo? Thanks a lot Regards eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Matheo Bezon
Thank you very much, Monica. Most interesting! Best regards eloy On 6/5/13 2:42 PM, "Monica Hall" wrote: > http://www.resonancejournal.org/current-issue/spr-2013/spanish-song- >chitarra-alla-spagnola-and-the-a-bi-ci-matheo-bezon-and-his-1599-alfabe >to-songbook/#n84 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Fuenllana
Dear Monica, List Charles Jacobs, in his edition of Orphenica Lyra (OUP, 1978), says something about Fuenllana's date(s) of death. Apparently there's some problem, because certain documents imply an earlier death, but her daughter latter mentions him as alive at a latter date, or something like that. I don't have this book at hand, but a soon as I can find it, I'll try to find out what it really says. Regards eloy Monica Hall 1/2/13 11:40 AM mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >I don't think there is anything in the prologue - they weren't very >worried about things like dates of birth! > > > >I agree - 1520 seems more likely for his birth. I think there might be >some evidence that he was till alive in 1579. I'm sure I read >something to that effect recently. > > > >Monica > >- Original Message - > >From: [1]Martyn Hodgson > >To: [2]Vihuelalist ; [3]Monica Hall > >Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 5:21 PM > >Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Fuenllana > >Well, Orphenica Lyra is 1554 and I'd not think he'd be much younger >than around 30 for such a prestigious (and large - ie expensive) >publication. > >So I'd put his date of birth around 1520. I suspect the c 1500 - 1579 >means that 1500 is a guess but 1579 is evidenced. 1579 also fits with >average adult lifespan of the period of around 60 (ie excluding >children with their extremely high early mortality rate). > >Is there nothing in the extensive prologue, dedication, notes which >give some idea of his history? > >Martyn >--- On Wed, 2/1/13, Monica Hall wrote: > > From: Monica Hall > Subject: [VIHUELA] Fuenllana > To: "Vihuelalist" > Date: Wednesday, 2 January, 2013, 14:33 > > Does anyone have any dates for Fuenllana. I have just come across a > source which gives them as c.1500-1579. It seems unlikely to me >that > he would have lived to be 79... Groves gives fl. 1553-1578. > Monica > -- >To get on or off this list see list information at >[4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >-- > > References > >1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk >2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[VIHUELA] Test
Test To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Monica's Webpage
I absolutely agree with you, Rob. Thank you Monica for all your great work and generosity! Thank you Rob for assisting her! Best woshes eloy Monica Hall4/5/12 6:53 ammjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >Thank-you Rob. I expect everyone is on their Easter Holidays. > > > >Monica > >- Original Message - > >From: [1]Rob MacKillop > >To: [2]Monica Hall > >Cc: [3]Vihuelalist > >Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 8:45 AM > >Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Monica's Webpage > > No responses to this? I think Monica deserves all our praise for the > incredible amount of work she has put in, and for which we have free > access to. Thank You, Monica! > >Rob >On 3 April 2012 21:26, Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > I am pleased to announce that thanks to Rob's good offices my > webpage has been re-done and improved. It is now at > [5]http://monicahall.co.uk/ although the [6]www.monicahall.co.uk > version still works. > In particular I have completely revised and updated my paper on > baroque guitar stringing. Originally this was published by the Lute > Society as a booklet in their series of booklets on various lute > related topics. When Rob offered me some space on his own web page > I did a much abridged version of it with just the texts from the > original sources with brief comments. > However the booklet is something that people have to order and pay > for and I get the impression that nobody bothers to do that. They > just refer to the online version. > So the new version is much longer and more detailed. It includes a > lot more illustrations from the original sources and the tuning > examples are in staff notation rather than Helmholz notation. It > also includes the tables and list of sources from the booklet > (updated). I have also been able to add a few more sources which I > have got hold of in the meantime. > It is now I think the most detailed survey of information about this > topic. > Comments and suggestions are always welcome. In theory I can make > changes myself although I haven't risked doing that yet. > Best wishes for Easter, the Spring Festival or whatever you may be > minded to celebrate at the present time. It isn't actually snowing > here but sleet is threatened. > Monica > To get on or off this list see list information at > [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >-- > > References > >1. mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com >2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >5. http://monicahall.co.uk/ >6. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ >7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear List Although the subject of this thread is labeled "Strumming as basso continuo", the exchange of different list members has to do with how to conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with strumming. I think the 2 main features of guitarra española de cinco órdenes are on one hand (left), its peculiar harmonic language -all these inversions- and an apparently limited palette. On the other (right) hand, and much more characteristically, strumming. When dealing with an alfabeto piece (a solo or a song) the problem of harmony is solved by the alfabeto itself (inconsistencies aside). If the player wants to give some different colors to harmony, he can use alternative higher chord positions (using Sanz´s Laberintos, for example). But rasgueado is an entirely different matter. The alfabeto notation gives not one single clue on how to realize it. Most of the time you won't even find indicators of up or down strokes. I know of not one single set of original instructions on how to make it -do someone in the list know something about it? We know about trillo, picco and repicco, and little more, but I think the basic thing about strumming is precisely, strumming. The old ones are clear about this. Sanz: Hágase cuenta que la mano derecha que toca la Guitarra es el Maestro de Capilla que lleva el compás, y los dedos de la mano izquierda son los instrumentos y voces que rige y gobierna por ella. The right hand is the chapel master that rules and conducts the instruments and voices, represented by the left hand fingers. I think strumming itself is a powerful tool to make clear the rhetoric of a piece, particularly a song. I think the main job of a guitar player accompanying a singer, or himself, is to shape harmony with the right hand. As someone put it, to illuminate the text from within. The old ones don't give detailed instructions about strumming because, in my opinion, strumming is an elusive art and science. It's something you learn by playing along with your teacher or with the community. Witness the master strummers of Latin American guitars -each instrument has its own complex and unique strumming language- some of these players have an outstanding level of performance and are as virtuosos in their field as any "classic" guitar player. They make what many old Spanish sources say: hacen hablar a la guitarra, they make the guitar speak. Regards eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Martyn
Yes, 6 guitars is a very peculiar continuo band.
As I said, I remember no evidence of such a band, or particularly guitars,
playing at the cathedral in Padilla's times. But now that you mention it,
many years ago, an american musicologist told me something about the music
chapel of Puebla inviting some popular musicians to join them for the
performance of some villancicos or something like that. I'm trying to
confirm this reference, but Dr. Stanford is apparently not available at this
time. Whenever I get some info I'll let you know
Greetings
eloy
El [FECHA], "[NOMBRE]" <[DIRECCION]> escribió:
>
>Thank you for this Eloy.
>
>But, of course, it might be said that 6 guitars, percussion and conch
>shell is already excessive. The question is: what evidence do we have
>that such instruments, and in such numbers, were expected by JG de
>Padilla and his auditors in contemporary performances of his setting of
>Missa Ego flos campi.
>
>Perhaps they were commonly employed, but are there any early records of
>this?
>
>Martyn
>
>
> --- On Thu, 15/12/11, Eloy Cruz wrote:
>
> From: Eloy Cruz
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
> earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> To: "Vihuelalist"
> Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 19:35
>
>>> Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected
>a
>>> strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is
>there
>>> even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
>>> fashionable performances of South American sacred settings?
>>
>> Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy
>perhaps could
>> tell us more about that if he is not too busy.
>Well, I know no "excessive strumming in some modern fashionable
>performances
>of South American sacred settings". The only example that comes to my
>mind
>is the "Missa Mexicana" CD by the Harp Consort: it's a setting of Missa
>Ego
>flos campi by JG de Padilla. The list of performers includes 6 guitar
>players and 3 percussion players, one of whom also plays conch shell. I
>think this CD could really be called fashionable: in between the Missa
>movements, it mixes some dance-songs, villancicos and even a vocal
>version
>of Murcia's Cumbees "alla Swingle Singers".
>The liner notes only explain that the guitar was the most significant
>instrument of Spanish baroque music, and mention that a "set of 6
>matched
>Veracruz baroque guitars" was specially made for this project. Anyway,
>I
>can't hear any excessive strumming in any of the tracks.
>Cheers
>eloy
>>
>>> We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often
>>> found in some modern performances of solo songs.
>>
>> Yes indeed!
>>
>> Monica
>>>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>--
>
> References
>
>1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
>> Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected a
>> strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is there
>> even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
>> fashionable performances of South American sacred settings?
>
> Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy perhaps could
> tell us more about that if he is not too busy.
Well, I know no "excessive strumming in some modern fashionable performances
of South American sacred settings". The only example that comes to my mind
is the "Missa Mexicana" CD by the Harp Consort: it's a setting of Missa Ego
flos campi by JG de Padilla. The list of performers includes 6 guitar
players and 3 percussion players, one of whom also plays conch shell. I
think this CD could really be called fashionable: in between the Missa
movements, it mixes some dance-songs, villancicos and even a vocal version
of Murcia's Cumbees "alla Swingle Singers".
The liner notes only explain that the guitar was the most significant
instrument of Spanish baroque music, and mention that a "set of 6 matched
Veracruz baroque guitars" was specially made for this project. Anyway, I
can't hear any excessive strumming in any of the tracks.
Cheers
eloy
>
>> We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often
>> found in some modern performances of solo songs.
>
> Yes indeed!
>
> Monica
>>
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear List
I think the chitarra was unknown in Northern Italy, but not so much so in
Naples. From Nina Treadwell's "The chitarra spagnola and Italian monody,
1589 to c. 1650":
On March 18, 1589 three guitars arrived in Florence from the Spanish-ruled
city of Naples, ordered by Emililo de' Cavalieri, overseer of artistic
activities at the court of Ferdinand I de' Medici. Cavalieri had a specific
purpose for these instruments: to accompany the solo sections in the closing
ballo of the sixth and last intermedio, composed as part of the wedding
celebrations of Ferdinand and the granddaughter of Catharine de' Medici,
Christine of Lorraine. The performance of a set of intermedi between the
acts of a play was a characteristic part of such important celebrations.
-Those of 1589 were originally performed in conjunction with Girolamo
Bargagli¹s comedy La Pellegrina and were among the most magnificent of their
kind. This reference to the guitar in the 1589 intermedi is the first extant
record we have of the guitar's use in northern Italy.
Cheers
eloy
El [FECHA], "[NOMBRE]" <[DIRECCION]> escribió:
>
>Dear Monica,
>
>I'm not sure we are at cross purposes since we all seem to agree that
>nothing is certain about what precise instrument Agazzari had in mind
>and whether he might have come accross the chitarra spagnuola (and
>implied it in his 'etcetera').
>
>Of course Foscarini's publications come a couple of decades after
>Agazzari's writings
>but we do know the chitarra spagnuola (or very similar term) seems to
>have been known even before then. Christofano Malvezzi, in his
>publication Intermedi et concerti (Venice, 1591) describes performers
>and instruments used in the Florentine intermedi of 1589.
>Cavalieri's acclaimed ''O che nouvo miracolo' (aka later as 'Aria del
>Gran Duca') has 'Vittoria Archilei, Luccia Caccini, e Margherita' and
>even lists the instruments they played:
> 'e sounavao Vittoria, e Lucia, una Chitarrina per uno, una alla
>Spagnola, e l'altra alla Napolettana, '.
>
>Does 'Chitarrina' here really mean a not-guitar shaped instrument? I
>suggest we need
>to be very careful about assuming a degree of standardisation of such
>terms at this time. And does 'Chitarrina' also necessarily imply a
>small instrument (either 'alla Spagnola' or 'alla Napolettana') or is
>it a reference to a guitar generally in this source?
> I've always taken the Intermedi record to mean a Chittara Spagnuola (5
>course) and
>a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601 Neapolitan
>publication). Else why bother so much to differentiate between the two
>('alla Spagnola' / ' alla Napolettana')?
>
>I recall the subject of guitars in the Florentine Intermedi has
>also been discussed elswhere (and perhaps even on this list) sometime
>ago - but I can't put my hand on the relevant paper at the moment - can
>you?
>
>Martyn
>--- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
> guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> To: "Martyn Hodgson"
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" , "Lex Eisenhardt"
> , "R. Mattes"
> Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49
>
>We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I have.
>Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware. Only one
>year
>after Montesardo. Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in
>about
>1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions was
>printed
>in 1640.
>I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was familiar with the
>chitarra
>spagnuola and had it in mind
>when he wrote his book. And he includes the chitarrina amongst the
>instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line. I
>can't
>see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all. It was surely a
>small
>lute?
>Monica
>- Original Message -
>From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
>To: "Vihuelalist" <[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>;
><[3]eisen...@planet.nl>; "R.
>Mattes" <[4]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
>Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:02 PM
>Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
>guitar
>[was Re: Capona?]}
>>
>>
>> Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying rider:
>'albeit
>> later sources' expressing that I am well aware these sources are
>not
>> contemporary with Agazzari. And of course you're quite right they
>do
>> not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware. The point is
>that
>> plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early
>(Foscarini)
>> and later 17th century so it is not possible on the available
>evidence
>> to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's "Colección": p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ³Son ó baile a modo de la Mariona; pero más rápido y bullicioso, con el cual y á cuyo tañido se cantan varias coplillas². A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is "of very bad circumstances", because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], "[NOMBRE]" <[DIRECCION]> escribió: >Hi Stuart, > >I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I >enjoyed this. I like your tempo. > >Best, > >Jocelyn > >From: Stuart Walsh <[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> >Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + >To: Vihuelalist <[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> >Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? > >Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning >early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual >pieces >with the title 'Capona'. >There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger >(including one by Rob Mackillop). >Any ideas what Capona means? >Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood >the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably >in a polite way!) >[3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I >Stuart >To get on or off this list see list information at >[4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >-- > > References > >1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com >2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I >4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[VIHUELA] Re: Santiago de Murcia
Dear Edward Thanks a lot for your words; yes, we had a little American tour with Jordi, and the people of NPR made this transatlantic interview. Best eloy El 10/30/10 1:11 PM, "Edward Martin" escribió: > Dear Eloy, > > I heard you 2 days ago, on National Public Radio, in which you and > Jordi Savall were interviewed, and the sow was wonderful, a melding > of Spanish and Mexican music. Well done! > > ed > > At 11:17 AM 10/30/2010, Eloy Cruz wrote: >> Dear Monica, thanks a lot for the good news. >> I wonder why the facsimile is dark; the two pages of the ms reproduced in >> Vera's Early Music article are certainly darkish but perfectly readable, >> and, as you say, the other Murcia mss are ok (the Codice Saldivar 4 is ju= >> st >> as clear as you describe its probable companion, the Passacalles). >> >> Anyway, I very much look forward to explore this book >> >> Best >> >> eloy >> To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Santiago de Murcia
Dear Monica, thanks a lot for the good news. I wonder why the facsimile is dark; the two pages of the ms reproduced in Vera's Early Music article are certainly darkish but perfectly readable, and, as you say, the other Murcia mss are ok (the Codice Saldivar 4 is just as clear as you describe its probable companion, the Passacalles). Anyway, I very much look forward to explore this book Best eloy El 10/30/10 9:11 PM, "Monica Hall" escribió: >It looks as if it has been slightly enlarged. The measurements of the >ms. itself are 24cms x 16.5 cms. - oblong I am mystified as to why it >should be so dark. My recollection of the British Library's ms. of >Passacalles y obras is that the paper is off white and the text clearly >legible in brownish ink but perhaps this ms. is not so well >preserved. > > > >The introduction is in English (only) but I haven't read it yet. It >only arrived this morning. > > > >cheers > > > >Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Viüla
Dear, Jocelyn, list The original is as follows En les sues tendes los huns luyten, los altres salten; e juguen los huns a taules, los altres a esca[c]hs; los huns se fan folls, los altres asen[y]ats; los huns parlen de guerra, los altres de amors; los huns sonen laüt, los altres arpa; huns mija viüla, altres flautes e cantar a tres veus per art de música. It comes from http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/01372719722460615866802/p 006.htm#I_159_ Best eloy El 5/22/09 7:45 PM, "Nelson, Jocelyn" escribió: > Thanks so much for the translations. > > I happen to be reading David H. Rosenthal’s English translation of the 15th c. > Catalan novel, “Tirant Lo Blanc.” In chapter 154, the hero is praised for his > abilities to entertain, among other things: > > “He gaily entertains his friends with music and dancing, being both courteous > to ladies and fearless among knights. In his tents, some wrestle and turn > somersaults; others play checkers or chess; others act foolish or solemn; > others speak of war or love; OTHERS PLAY LUTES, GUITARS, OR FLUTES OR SING > 5-PART HARMONIES, and so anyone who seeks merriment will find it with our > captain.” > > This was published in 1490 in Valencia, but much of it was supposed to have > been written several decades earlier. And of course this is just a > translation; I don’t have the Catalan, so I don’t know what words were used > that Rosenthal translated as “lute” and “guitar.” > > This is quite a bit later than the poetry that opened this conversation, but, > for me, still early enough to be interesting. Isn’t it neat that one of the > typical party amusements was to sing in a5 harmony? > > Jocelyn > > > > > > From: Eloy Cruz > Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 19:48:04 -0400 > To: Vihuela list > Subject: [VIHUELA] Péñola > > Sorry, once again the DRAE: > > péñola. > (Del lat. pennŭla, pluma). > 1. f. pluma (‖ de ave para escribir). > > Yes, a quill > > > Best > > > Eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Péñola
Sorry, once again the DRAE: péñola. (Del lat. pennŭla, pluma). 1. f. pluma (‖ de ave para escribir). Yes, a quill Best Eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela de pé ndola
Also, I forgot The DRAE, Diccionario de la Real Academia Española defines "mota" as 6. f. Eminencia de poca altura, natural o artificial, que se levanta sola en un llano. I don't remember, but, did I read somewhere that a mota was a tower, the first type of building that later became a castle, and that it was always made on top of a hill, or something? Best eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela de pé ndola
Dear all I went to http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/24661685545133385754491/p 001.htm#26 And found the book. Verses 1228-1237 deal with musical instruments: Allí sale gritando la guitarra morisca1228 de las voses aguda e de los puntos arisca, el corpudo laúd que tiene punto a la trisca, la guitarra latina con ésos se aprisca. El rabé gritador con la su alta nota,1229 cab' él el orabín taniendo la su rota, el salterio con ellos más alto que la mota, la vihuela de péndola con aquéstos y sota. Medio caño et arpa con el rabé morisco,1230 entr' ellos alegrança el gálipe françisco, la rota dis' con ellos más alta que un risco, con ella el tamborete, sin él non vale un prisco. La vihuela de arco fas' dulçes de bayladas,1231 adormiendo a veses, muy alto a las vegadas, voses dulses, sabrosas, claras et bien pintadas, a las gentes alegra, todas las tiene pagadas. Dulçe caño entero sal' con el panderete,1232 con sonajas de asófar fasen dulçe sonete, los órganos y disen chançones e motete, la adedura albardana entre ellos se entremete. Dulçema, e axabeba, el finchado albogón,1233 çinfonia e baldosa en esta fiesta son, el françés odreçillo con éstos se compón', la neçiancha(80) mandurria allí fase su son. Trompas e añafiles salen con atambales,1234 non fueron tiempo ha plasenterías tales, tan grandes alegrías nin atán comunales, de juglares van llenas cuestas e eriales. Some words are hypertexts and take you to a page that's a glossary, so, they give the follow definitions: Apriscarse. Juntarse como en aprisco. And the DRAE says that "aprisco" means: aprisco. (De apriscar). 1. m. Paraje donde los pastores recogen el ganado para resguardarlo de la intemperie. And the mistery word: Sotar. Saltar, bailar. I don't know who made this glossary, but perhaps he didn't know about musical instruments, because he defines "Laúd" as: Laúd. Laude, alabanza. Best eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Building my second instrument - my first vihuela - why carving from one piece
Dear Bill, Waling, list I've never seen any historical references to guitars made out of a single piece of wood, the closest is the little story Minguet tells about how he himself learned how to play the guitar: when he was a boy he bought a guitar tutor (Amat?), he then went to a carpenter's apprentice and asked him to saw the outline of a treble guitar out of a piece of wood, and to add to the contraption a bridge, a "ceja", 5 pegs (and strings) and the 4 necessary frets, then he used his tutor to taught himself, and continued his self-teaching using the books of Sanz and Murcia. The jaranas and requintos jarochos and other traditional guitars are made of a single piece as well, which could attest certain practice in old times: fine guitars assembled, and humble pop guitars carved. Waling is right when he says it's easier to carve than to assemble a guitar. And it's much faster: a baroque-guitar maker will make you wait at least a year, the jarana maker will have the new instrument in one-two weeks... Best wishes eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Peruvian Sonata
Dear Rocky, List I have a modern edition of the Libro de Cifra, edited and transcribed by Enrique Carrillo Thorne and Javier Echecopar, in the intro they make a historic account of the guitar in Peru, but basically say nothing about the original ms., not even it's original name or date, so I don't know if the dates 1766-1776 that you mention are original. They do say the ms is divided in 2 sections, one in tablature and one is staff, but don't indicate which pieces are written in which way. In the edition's cover, they include a copy of one of the tablature pieces and it's a five-course tablature. The book includes 5 sonatas: Sonata en la mayor, Sonata en re mayor, Sonata de Misón, Sonata en la menor and Gran Sonata. I'm copying from my notes and don't have the book with me, but I can remember that these sonatas are very simple single-movement works. I know the one and to my knowledge only surviving flute sonata by Misson (it's in a Mexican flute ms and it's in 3 movements) and the Sonata de Misón in the Libro de Cifra doesn't sound in Misson style, it's just an arpeggio that looks like some kind of accompaniment or something. The other pieces are closer to the Mexican Tablatura Musical (ms 1560) than to the Vargas y Guzman ms. Best wishes eloy El 3/22/08 11:55 AM, "Mjos & Larson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > I came across an item today which I hadn't noticed before: > > SONATA A MINOR FROM LIMA/PERU 1766 > Composed by an anonymous Spanish Guitar composer. Codigo from Museo > Nacional > del Peru. Transcribed for Baroque Lute and edited by Ralf Bachmann. > French tablature/Baroque tuning. > E 10.- > > Robert Stevenson (Journal of American Folklore, Vol 73, No. 288, > 1960) does not mention a guitar source in the "Museo Nacional" but > does mention two others -- one in the Museum of the Republic, > Magdalena Vieja, the other in the National Library -- but not one > from the . He writes the first (Libro de Zifra para...) contains a > Sonata in A (major?) and two other sonatas, possibly by Misson, and > is partly in tab and partly in staff notation. The second contains a > Sonata in D. Stevenson says these don't really have any flavor of > folklore elements, but is another example of European popular music > brought to the New World. > > Given the 1766 date, was the original for 6-c guitar -- perhaps like > Vargas y Guzman (1776)? > > Does this baroque lute edition contain reproductions of the original? > Could it be put back into guitar notation based on this edition? > > > -- Rocky > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: fun
Dear Bill All I can heartily say is that you are absolutely right: with this music and in that Laberinto CD, I, we, are just having fun. For the first time in my life, after all these years, I can say I'm out of school, I can say I forgot about academy, I just let go and enjoy music and the company of great musicians and great friends. Let me tell you how we made this CD. I didn't know any of the jarocho players and had never seen them, it was my friend Enrique who proposed their participation. I met them on Friday morning and we had a day-long rehearsal; next day, Saturday, dress rehearsal and concert. Sunday was off to allow everybody to get rid of the hangover, and on Monday we started the four-day recording session. Some of the final versions were devised right there at the studio, some of the verses were improvised there. Enrique came out with the final cadence of la lloroncita when we had finished recording it, we had to re-record... I've never been in a recording like that one, it was like if everybody had played this music all their lives, and I think that was true... The Codice saldivar Fandango and the jarocho fandanguito are just one and the same thing, and so do la Jotta and La maria Chuchena, so nobody was on foreign land. Lee is a spectacular musician who connected in 3 minutes time with the jarochos and they had a great deal of musical conversation all the time although they couldn't understand the other's spoken language And I absolutely agree with what you say > they are simply reveling in the music of their > grandfathers ... their grandfather's grandfather and more. All the time I keep finding the old in the new. One night, at a jarocho fiesta, a fandango, I heard this verse: Ora si china del alma Ya no nos condenaremos Los infiernos se acabaron Y los diablos se murieron I really had a chill, because in the inquisition archives there's a 18th cent. denunciation of a son called pan the jarave with this verse Ya el infierno se acavo Ya los Diablos se murieron Haora si chinita mia Ya no nos condenaremos And I also agree that the music of the Son came from the other side of the Atlantic, and some of the pieces, why not, probably went from this side to the other... Thanks a lot! Cheers eloy El 1/26/08 6:24 PM, "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > as stated earlier, i've been dancing around the kitchen lately with the > "ensamble continuo" and their new world baroque offerings. don't know what > you prepare your evening's meal with but this has been "top of the pops" with > me for un bel pò. > > it occurs to me - as i listen - that they (eloy et al.) are having fun. > > imagine that ... > > they are not exploring a musical tradition alien to a british or north > american tradition; they are simply reveling in the music of their > grandfathers ... their grandfather's grandfather and more. > > there are those, i'm sure, who will suggest that the son (sone) tradition is > uniquely american and is only obliquely related to music tradition of the > old(e) world. but if you will only place yourself in the position of a music > loving émigré to the new found land (circa 1500 and something) who happens to > influence those around you to the extent that they pass on that influence to > succeeding generations ... it is not beyond the realms of probability that the > music produced in subsequent modern times relates directly to the music that > has passed before. > > this point ... this aspect, i suggest (sigh) relates to their instruments as > well. > > what is it about a 4, 5 or 6 course new world instrument that (per forza) > excludes it from the old world repertoire? > > - bill > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=billkilpatrick > > - > Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: la lloroncita
Dear Bill, Monica, List It's very interesting that Los Ympossibles from CS4 are virtually the same piece as today's La Lloroncita from veracruz. I think it's also very much alike a song from argentina, but right now I can't remember the name of it... It's also interesting that los ymposibles has a pattern much like that of las vacas, which is based (is it? which one is older? I don't know) on the romanesca. Curious, though, that in this source are included both las bacas and los ympossibles, probably Murcia didn't think of them as the same thing Now I copy from a mail I sent to Bill (sorry Bill, I'm too lazy): The lloronas are a family of ³sones² in mexico, there are like a dozen different versions, the most famous probably the one from oaxaca, that chavela vargas sings in the hollywood film ³frida², about mrs Kahlo... The legends about lloronas come from prehispanic times, and originally refer, amongst many other things, to the ³cihuateotl², a woman who dies when delivering her first baby and who becomes a ghost that haunts the roads and a trophy for burglars; legends span for 500 years (or more) and are alive today; even, when I was little, so long ago, my grandma used to say that la llorona could be heard in our own street in mexico city now and then... But the songs, the lloronas, seem to have no connection with these legends, they always refer to broken-hearted people. Usually the sones don¹t have an articulated text, each sung verse could come from a different time and place and they have no connection with one another. The lloroncita from Veracruz that we include in the cd is, in each of the verses: the lament of a lonely man who cries for the absence of the beloved one, or who cries for his condition of being in jail without his sweetheart, or about having a bed but no one to share it with, or that complains about his inability to love... I could try to translate them, but they are way beyond my translating abilities, I¹m afraid I would render a ridiculous version... eloy El 1/14/08 10:16 AM, "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > lately, i've been listening (and bopping around the kitchen) to "laberinto en > la guitarra" with eloy cruz. fabulous stuff. > > on the disc there's a folia called "la lloroncita" that might be an alternate > to the "guardame las vacas" lyrics rob was looking for. > > "la llorona" is a real south of the border weepy about a beautiful native girl > who is seduced by a dashing caballero, has several children by him, is > subsequently dropped and becomes so unhinged by this abandonment that she > throws first her children and then herself into the river to drown. ... there > after, at night, by the river, her spirit can be heard calling for her > murdered children. > > .. perfect stuff for the tragic chord progression of la folia. > > i've asked eloy for help but if anyone has an english translation of this song > would they please let me know. "babelfish" was exactly that ... pure babel > and decidedly fishy. > > http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ > > - > Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Codice Martinez Compañon
Dear Bill, List: Now that Bill was talking about the Zuola, I remeber that other ms. from Peru, the codice martinez Compañon is available online, it has many wonderful images of life in Peru in 18th cent and several pieces of music that Bill could use with great advantage on his charango. The news was in the vihue-lista some years ago, but perhaps someone still did't know It's at http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/FichaObra.html?Ref=35 Best eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guerau recording
Ooops Sorry and sorry (for not transalating and for the probably poor translation that follows): Las Vacas is a certain sonada [or sonata, meaning instrumental music] used among musicians, upon it, they have made great diferencias using counterpoint and pasos forzados. Paso forzado means like these lute fantasias "played upon a ground ut re mi fa sol" What I mean as serious is related to the complexity of each diferencia: the jacaras by Sanz, Murcia or Santa Cruz can be played very fast and you can make a very complex elaboration upon the 6/8-3/4 alternation, bur Guerau's are so complex and difficult that if you try to play them like SantaCru'z, you are in trouble like in bar 10. Two different kinds of diferencias Best eloy El 10/16/07 4:07 PM, "Rob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > Dear Eloy, > > Many apologies, but could you please translate that quotation for me? > > I'm wondering why one can't play 'seriously' in a 'dancy' way. Seems an odd > dichotomy. > > Rob > > www.rmguitar.info > > > > -Original Message- > From: Eloy Cruz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 16 October 2007 21:44 > To: Vihuela List > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guerau recording > > Dear Stuart, list > > > I agree with you, this pieces can be anything you want, and they can be > played in a "dancy" or in a more serious, "instrumental" way. The Vacas was > a "baile", a rithmic thing, but Sebastian de Covarruvias defines it this way > > Las Vacas es una cierta sonada entre músicos, y sobre ella han hecho grandes > diferencias de contrapunto y pasos forzados > > Which in my opinion implies a more complex and elaborate musical treatment, > just like Guerau > > Best wishes > > > eloy > > > El 10/16/07 1:50 PM, "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > >> >>> I never noted any sarcastic remarks from anyone. Relax. And post more. >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> PS I'm not being sarcastic :-) Honest! >>> >>> >>> >>> >> I hope I can take a few sarcastic remarks in my stride. Rob, thanks for >> your reply and encouragement. Like you, I wish more people would post >> things. In a way, even nicer are little videos - like the ones that >> Bill does. >> >> If anyone fancies a crack at the opening of Jacaras, here it is: >> >> http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/Guerau/Jacarasopening.jpg >> >> Looks easy eh? If this were arranged for modern classical guitar it >> would probably only be about grade 5 or maybe 6), do you think? Anyway, >> I find it pretty tough going - as you heard! >> >> You suggest to play it more like a dance. But I dunno... It seems just >> too 'weighty' and the little rhythmic figures (after the first line of >> music) seem to want to go across the barlines sometimes. Guerau does >> suggest that these pieces are for moral improvement. Perhaps you really >> could dance around to Sanz dance variations but I can't imagine anyone >> springing to their feet with this stuff. >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Guerau recording
Dear Stuart, list I agree with you, this pieces can be anything you want, and they can be played in a "dancy" or in a more serious, "instrumental" way. The Vacas was a "baile", a rithmic thing, but Sebastian de Covarruvias defines it this way Las Vacas es una cierta sonada entre músicos, y sobre ella han hecho grandes diferencias de contrapunto y pasos forzados Which in my opinion implies a more complex and elaborate musical treatment, just like Guerau Best wishes eloy El 10/16/07 1:50 PM, "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > >> I never noted any sarcastic remarks from anyone. Relax. And post more. >> >> Rob >> >> PS I'm not being sarcastic :-) Honest! >> >> >> >> > I hope I can take a few sarcastic remarks in my stride. Rob, thanks for > your reply and encouragement. Like you, I wish more people would post > things. In a way, even nicer are little videos - like the ones that > Bill does. > > If anyone fancies a crack at the opening of Jacaras, here it is: > > http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/Guerau/Jacarasopening.jpg > > Looks easy eh? If this were arranged for modern classical guitar it > would probably only be about grade 5 or maybe 6), do you think? Anyway, > I find it pretty tough going - as you heard! > > You suggest to play it more like a dance. But I dunno... It seems just > too 'weighty' and the little rhythmic figures (after the first line of > music) seem to want to go across the barlines sometimes. Guerau does > suggest that these pieces are for moral improvement. Perhaps you really > could dance around to Sanz dance variations but I can't imagine anyone > springing to their feet with this stuff. > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Gallardas by sanz on charango
Dear Bill It's wonderful This guy seems to have the knack of the charango style. He didn't make just another version of Sanz's piece, he actually made a brand new charango piece. Where is he from? Best wishes eloy El 7/29/07 6:10 PM, "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > here's a youtube video made by a contributor to the > yahoo.charango list: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpVVlz_R4cA > > .. an informal rendition but i'd be curious to hear > your reaction. > > "tolo" is the man's son, who normally plays guitar > accompaniment. > > - bill > > http://earlymusiccharango.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Eloy's photos
Dear Alexander and list Sorry for taking so long in replying, I had some concerts in Singapore and Malaysia and didn't have easy access to internet for 2 weeks. I think you are right about the frets of this instrument, in fact, I think it's sketchy in almost every respect (as most of these church instruments are). I'm not really sure an instrument called citara and having this system of fretting would be anachronistic in mid-late 18th century Mexico, in fact, the Codice Saldivar 2, which is doubtlessly for cittern with semi-frets (what's the proper English name of this kind of fretting?) is probably from 18th century. I very much contend that here in the Colonies the history of instruments was different than in Europe, and instruments that were old and almost forgotten in Europe were still in use here (or even are still in use today). I have one literary reference to a woman playing citara in Mexico City in the early 1840s. Sadly, the writer doesn't describe the citara, but in other parts of his book, he clearly refers to guitars and other instruments, so, probably he wasn't using a literary image to describe a guitar. You told me about the instrument in Sisal, it's too bad that Yucatan is so far away from Mexico City, I can't afford a trip there to see the paintings, but it's a good pretext to organize a summer vacation there... my children would be more than happy Best wishes eloy El 6/7/07 3:03 PM, "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > > On Saturday, June 02, 2007 3:07 AM "Eloy Cruz" wrote: > >> The citara is still the one and only hispanic baroque portrait of a >> cittern >> that have come to my notice, I love the detail of the semi frets... I >> think >> the only instruments with this kind of frets are citterns, I know of no >> bandurria or other thing with semi frets, but who knows, do you Monica?... > > Dear Eloy, > > The presence of the so-called semi-frets on this illustration is rather > questionable (i.e. referring to those small bits of 'something' in vicinity of > what is depicted as, supposedly, 'whole frets'). Proper semi-frets would have > to be positioned somewhere mid-way in-between whole frets. This is not to say > that the fret spaces in general are shown disproportionably large to the > overall size of the instrument pointing to a rather sketchy character of the > illustration (or at least the details related to frets). Moreover, a cittern > the fingerboard of which is equipped with semi frets would be rather > anachronistic in the context of the mid-late 18th century instrumentarium. The > already mentioned fixed bridge which really rules out the use of metal strings > and the lack of plectrum simply compliment the picture. > > In one of the historical accounts (dated 31 August 1766) at the end of J. > Romanillos' latest book "The Vihuela da Mano and the Spanish Guitar" there is > an interesting entry which lists: "two pear-shaped vihuelas" (dos biguelas de > perilla). So I suppose this could well be (along with the bandurria) another > possible identification for the instrument under question. > > On a different subject, one of my customers have passed me information on a > 16th century church in Mexico where there are frescoes in which viols are > depicted. This is the church of San Bernardino Sisal in the district of Sisal > on the outskirts of Valladolid. I wonder if you know about this church and the > frescoes? The person was told that they had been uncovered fairly recently > below layers of whitewash and are supposed to be more or less contemporary > with the church itself (c.1550s). > > Best wishes, > > Alexander > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Eloy's photos
Dear Monica & list Sorry for taking so long in replying to messages about these paintings, my life is a bit too hectic right now. I wonder if William Bartlett was able to access the pictures (could you William? Otherwise I could mail them to you); whenever I click on flickr it takes me directly to my page, so I'm of no help, but apparently, following Stewart's directions it is possible to find them. Thanks Stewart! The citara is still the one and only hispanic baroque portrait of a cittern that have come to my notice, I love the detail of the semi frets... I think the only instruments with this kind of frets are citterns, I know of no bandurria or other thing with semi frets, but who knows, do you Monica?... But Alexander is right: it's hard to say if the fixed bridge can hold metal strings All instruments from Cocucho and Nurio are from the 2nd half of the 18th century. I don't know dates for the organ of Tlacochahuaya, but I'm fairly sure it's also 18th. The instrument from Cocucho that I label vihuela has, in my opinion, a set of very "vihuela-like" ornaments, and pegs for 6 strings, could this suggest that The vihuela, the real one, was still alive in 18th cent Mexico? The 6 pegs could stand for 6 courses (as is not uncommon in many paintings). I think it would be too early an instrument to call it a 6-course guitar, as the earliest known source for this instrument is, I think, Vargas y Guzmán's Explicación para tocar la guitarra de punteado..., (Veracruz, 1776, first known copy Cádiz, 1773), and as Vargas says himself, it was a new and also a better instrument than the 5-course one. Otherwise, the instrument in Cocucho has only 4 frets, as recommended for rasgueado. Apparently these 18th cent. guys didn't know (as we do today) that you have to make a choice between vihuela-guitarra. I just uploaded another painting by French artist Edouard Pingret, who was in Mexico in the 1850s. The instrument the woman is playing looks very much like a baroque guitar with 6 pegs. Also, there's a music historian here in Mexico who was furious with me and my ensemble La Fontegara because we made a CD of sonatas from New Spain, and we play a gamba. She very strongly states that viols were not played in Mexico, so, I think I have to change, and the instrument I called a viola, now must be called a 6-string cello Best wishes eloy - Original Message - From: Monica Hall To: Vihuelalist Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:11 AM Subject: Fw: Eloy's photos - Original Message - From: Monica Hall To: Vihuelalist Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 6:15 PM Subject: Eloy's photos I have at last been able to access Eloy's photos. They are brilliant especially the citara. What is the date of them? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] More Mexican instruments
Dear list I followed Bill's advice and uploaded the mexican instruments pictures to http://www.flickr.com Where you can see them under my name, Eloy Cruz Four new pictures come from the decorations of the baroque organ in the town of Tlacochahuaya, Oaxaca, and include a fiddle, a lute, a crazy four-stringed, guitar-shaped viol or cello and a cittern. This cittern is one of the very few examples of cittern depictions in the hispanic world, together with the one in Minguet i Irol's "Reglas y advertencias" and the incomplete one from Codice Saldivar 2. A few years ago I asked in the Spanish vihue-lista and nobody seemed familiar with any baroque citterns in Spanish art... This pictures were made by my friend, luthier Daniel Guzman Best wishes Eloy Cruz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Instruments from Mexico
Dear List I followed Bill's advice and uploaded the pictures at http://www.flickr.com/ Where you can find them under my name, Eloy Cruz Best wishes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Some instruments from Mexico
Dear List In a recent trip to the Mexican state of Michoacan a came across some instrumental iconography. In a couple of 16th cent churches there are some 18th cent decorations with angel musicians who play several instruments, including something that looks like vihuela, lute, gamba, harp, etc. I got some (not very good) pictures, but I've no idea how to upload them to the net. If someone is interested, I could email him/her the pictures Best wishes Eloy Cruz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Charango as vihuela
Dear Bill Thanks a lot for bringing this paper to our attention, it's fascinating, and it is so, not only because of the questions it answers, but those that it suggests. After one first glimpse at the paper, it makes me wonder a bunch of things: The connection between spaniards and incas started right in 16th c. and the spaniards played both vihuela and guitarra. The vihuela stayed alive in spain and in america well in to the 17th c. The guitarra was to be played with fingers and/or probably with a plectrum and/or probably in rasgueado style in 16th cent. The vihuela was played also with the fingers and in earlier times had been played with a plectrum. Was it never played with a plectrum in late 16th cent? Was it never strummed? After the official disappearance of the vihuela, the name remained applied to the guitarra de 5 ordenes and more or less to all other guitars ever since, in the hispanic world. To this day, in America (I mean latin) many names can be given to one single instrument, the best example is, as a friend of mine uses to say: in certain parts of Brasil, one single instrument is called viola if you play choros in it, but if you play Bach's Chacconne in the very same instrument, it's to be called guitarra. Also, both vihuelas and guitarras could have flat or vaulted backs, both could have many different sizes, both could have many different tunings, and a different number of courses So, what is the difference between vihuela and guitarra? I think one answer is given by Covarrubias in his Thesoro (sorry, I can't quote, don't have the book with me): it's a cheap and vulgar instrument, a cowbell, that sadly people use today, instead of the noble vihuela of old... But then Santa Cruz makes his book for biguela hordinaria, which is a guitarra... In other words, the time and place where a writer lives and who he is, are significant in terms of his definition I think the main idea of this paper is the immense complexity of acculturation processes, so I don't think the time is ripe to say that the equation vihuela-charango is right: did all the spaniards who came to the andes called the same to the guitars they had?, they all played them in the same way? Were they aware that a vihuela is a different thing than a guitar? Were the indians aware that vihuela and guitar are different? Sorry, I'm going too long and don't come to my point: I think it's impossible to say that vihuela becomes charango, but it's impossible to deny it. Probably the only thing we can say for sure is that some old guitar or guitars was subject to a very complex number of acculturation processes in a vast territory, during a probably long period of time, and became the modern charango On the other hand, I think charango is a wonderful medium for vihuela music Best wishes Eloy Cruz El 1/17/07 3:10 AM, "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > deja vu ... no? > > appreciating that i've been asked to "move on" ... i > think you might find the following paper interesting: > > http://www.sibetrans.com/trans/trans8/baumann.htm > > the paper deals with cultural impact - one or many to > another, or > "transculturalization" as he describes it - and the > various ways in which this influence can be > assimilated by both recipient and donor cultures. a > friend of mine posted it to the yahoo charango list > > a charango is used for purposes of illustration (16th > cent. spanish > vihuela confronting indigenous south americans) but > the process he > describes could be applied to how early european > culture - music, in > general and hip in particular - is perceived by us > today. > > another friend, who doesn't share my "charango as > vihuela" opinion, > suggests the paper proves his point while i, as you > might imagine, feel it proves mine rather well ... > something in it for everyone > > - bill > > > > > > ___ > All New Yahoo! Mail Tired of unwanted email come-ons? Let our SpamGuard > protect you. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
Thanks a lot, Alexander This is the only cittern illustration I can remember apart from those in Minguet and Codice Saldivar 2, and is a very interesting one. I'll try again to get the Romanillos book. Last time the web site was apparently down. Best Wishes Eloy On Dec 16, 2006, at 7:36 PM, Alexander Batov wrote: > On Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:50 PM > Eloy Cruz wrote: > >> ... Back in 2003 I asked everyone about more music or more surviving >> Spanish >> citterns or paintings and I could find nothing ... > > Citterns are mentioned (even with detailing of materials they are > made of > etc) in a number of late-16th century Spanish accounts which J. > Romanillos > published in his latest book "The Vihuela da Mano and the Spanish > Guitars" > (2002). Can provide a list if desired ... > > There is also this: http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/art/ > anjo.html from > Andrew Hartig's " Cittern Picture Gallery" which can also be a > fairly close > approximation to what the cittern looked like in the contemporary > Spain. One > particular detail of this instrument seems rather remarkable to me: > the way > the strings are fastened at the bottom edge of the soundboard - a > feature > somewhat similar to modern Portuguese violas where strings are > pinned to > what looks like a 'normal' bridge and then pass over a movable > saddle-like > thing in front of it. > > Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Spanish one-man bands
Dear list Eugene, the book you mention is Pablo Minguet y Yrol's Reglas y advertencias generales..., Madrid, 1752-1754. Stuart, thanks for the picture of the instrument. Looks like it has been heavily restored, or perhaps, modified. The bridge could be that of a viola, cello, or something, and the neck, bridge and head look different than the body. The raised fingerboard, looks like that of a modern guitar, and the head, which is the only feature that resembles a cittern, could come from a cittern kit. I wonder if the V&A has info about the date when the instrument was restored and who made it. There could be pictures of the instrument before that restoration was made. None of the instruments in Minguet have "citternheads", all of them have guitar-like heads. Regards eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Spanish one-man bands
Dear Stuart and List Doc Rossi is right, the catalog entry he copies is for an instrument with Museum No.: 224-1882, but the note next to the instrument calls it a cittern and has the Spanish virtuosi story. I saw the instrument in december 2002. I think I remember that Monica went to the museum and asked the curator about the instrument, but I don't remember if she actually did it... The only music for cittern in the Hispanic world that I know is the Codice Saldivar 2 in Mexico City and another 18th century manuscript sold at Sotheby's long ago, Monica told me about this ms. Back in 2003 I asked everyone about more music or more surviving Spanish citterns or paintings and I could find nothing... There's of course Minguet. There's a later notice (c. 1840) of someone playing a cittern (citara) in Mexico City Best wishes Eloy Cruz The V&A catalogue (1968) entry for this instrument says: 11/9 English guitar. English: late eighteenth century. Fig. 75. No Label visible. Very unusual waisted model in a vaguely Spanish guitar format. Arched back of sycamore. Slightly arched belly of pine with simulated purfling in black ink and an open soundhole. Ivory hitch studs at base of body. Ebony fingerboard with twelve brass frets and four capotasto holes. Pegbox with a pyramid-shaped rectangular finial. Normal English guitar stringing, the last two courses overspun. Dimensions: Length total 69; belly 30; Width of bouts 20, 18, 22. Depth of sides 5.8. String length 32.5 (very short for an English guitar, though of the same order as that of Perry's cither viol, 2/8). Doc Doc Rossi Element Music Le Grand Domaine Boulevard des Dames 26 13002 Marseille France To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Canarios
Many thanks to Lex, Manolo and Monica This is certainly a complex topic. I agree with Lex and Monica that the rasgueado in both canarios y 3+2 +2+2, starting in anacrusis, hard to play, but when you get into it, gives a wonderful offbeat pattern... The problem is that both in harmony and rhythm there seems to be no connection in between the rasgueado and punteado sections. I'm puzzled by all these rasgueado sections; am I correct if I say that CS4 is the only Spanish baroque guitar book with this rasgueados as intro to the punteado piece? and, are they really intros? Some kind of rasgueado intro to a piece is very common in latinamerican music, and in Colombia and Venezuela is called registro: I know at least one example where the cuatro (the Venezuelan 4-string guitar) makes a strumming registro to the piece, which is played by harp, cuatro and maracas, but the registros are of a very different kind, they don't follow any pattern and sound very much as a little improvisation to prepare the real piece. The rasgueados in CS4 are not like registros, but many times simply repeat the pattern of the piece: in some cases, like Villanos or La Jotta, you can actually play the whole punteado piece to the rasgueado, they are identical. In other cases the rasgueado and puntreado are not identical, like Zarambeques, where some diferencias have a different pattern. This change happens also in some mexican sones, and is called "discante", and works exactly like in Zarambeques. Some of the patterns in CS4 are irregular, like that of Cumbees, where the opening strumming can't be used as an accompaniment. But the most irregular piece is the canarios por la A, it's probably the only one that has a different pattern for each diferencia, or no pattern at all. And 6/4 seems to have no rhythmic connections in CS4: only the two canarios and the Paysamos are in 6/4, but punteado canarios por la C and Paysanos are in 6/8 straight, while punteado canarios por la A is 6/8-3/4, very irregular... Yes, Murcia's instructions don't help here. Thanks Manolo for the sesquialter definition, do you mean it's an actual architectural measure o proportion? This proportion in music would be simply 2+1, ie. crotchet-quaver, or something like that, no? By the way, do you know a book about musical proportions in the baroque, I recently was searching for something in this particular topic and found basically nothing... Thanks again and best wishes eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Canarios
Dear Monica and list.
Many years ago (back in 1982!) I played the two sets of canarios in
Codice Saldivar 4, and just decided that the strumming pattern in
both of them was wrong and simply didn't play it...
Now I want to play them again but the strumming patterns are still
something I can't understand. I checked Craig Russell's transcription
and apparently he did the same as me: he decided that they were wrong
and then "corrected" them. He says that, although the pieces are
written in 6/4, the patterns are certainly in 6/4, but for the
punteado sections, Murcia switches to 6/8, and Craig, for the sake of
consistency, decided to transcribe everything in 6/8, which is a
problem. One more problem is that he added some dots to the figures
in the strumming section and comes out with a completely different
rhythm as the one expressed in tablature, which certainly is closer
to the rhythm of the punteado sections...
Obviously the pieces were written by Murcia in 6/4, which doesn't
mean at all the same thing we understand by 6/4, but "tiempo de
sesquialtera" as Murcia himself explains, but the strumming is not at
all in 6/4, even by modern standards: if the strumming sections would
have barlines, there would be something like nine 8th notes per bar,
while the punteado sections have six 8th notes per bar.
I don't really understand Murcia's explanation, what is the meaning
of "tiempo de sesquialtera"? It implies a tempo or a rhythmic
pattern or both?
Why are the rasgueado and punteado sections so different from one
another? The rasgueado is offbeat (what we would call in Spanish
"atravesado") and the punteado is on the beat ("derecho" in Spanish)
and with an amount of 8th notes per bar different in each one of
them. In many pieces in CS4, the strumming sections have the same
pattern as the punteado, so much so that you can use the rasgueado as
an accompaniment to the punteado, but here it's just impossible. In
fact, if you play both sections, it's like you are playing 2
different pieces...
Steve Player says that this rasgueado atravesado could imply that
there was a form of canario that was atravesado, but I've never seen
any example of a canario of this kind.
Also, the usual keys for canarios seem to be "por la C" and "por la
A", these two keys would imply 2 different forms of canario?
Sorry if there are too many questions
Best wishes
Eloy Cruz
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[VIHUELA] Murcia
Dear Monica I didn't remember where I had found the title page, it's linked to the picture of Vera and Ohlsen, there's a link about "Mas Imagenes" and the title page is imagen 2. Yes, everything is tantalizing about this ms. It's possible concordances, where it comes from, what is it's probable history, etc... Best regards Eloy El 9/24/06 11:59 AM, "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > Dear Eloy > > Thanks very much for that! I couldn't find this picture on the El Mercurio > site. > > Murcia is referred to as Don Santiago de Murcia in the Aprobacion de Don > Antonio Literes in Resumen. > > Antonio has very kindly sent me a list of the contents from Vera's article. > There are a large number of minuets and I wonder if he has had a chance to > check the Ms. in the Biblioteca Nacional in Mexico - ms. 1560 which has a > lot of minuets - and arrangements of Corelli's violin sonatas. It also > includes some of the Passacalles from "Passacalles y obras". > > There is also a piece called "La Azucena". There is a piece with this > title in the Saldivar cittern ms. > > All very tantalizing. > > I expect all will be revealed in the and. > > Best wishes > > Monica > > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Eloy Cruz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "vihuela" > Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:02 AM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Santiago de Murcia > > >> Dear Monica and list >> >> Actually there's a picture of the MS title page at El Mercurio note. It's >> very small, but I think it goes like this: >> >> Cifras selectas >> de guitarra >> Por >> Don Santiago de Murcia >> Maestro de la Reina [2 letters not clear: NS?] >> Doña Maria Luisa de Saboya >> Año de MDCCXXII [date unclear] >> >> Handwriting doesn't look like that of the 2 other Murcia MSs. I don't >> remember Murcia calling himself "Don" in Resumen or Passacalles. Could > this >> MS be a compilation of works by Murcia made by someone else?... >> >> Best regards >> >> >> Eloy Cruz >> >> >> El 9/23/06 11:59 AM, "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> escribió: >> >>> Many thanks for that. Apparently there will be an article about it in >>> "Early Music" (the English periodical published by O.U.P.) in May 2007. >>> >>> I will have to be patient until then I think. >>> >>> Having had time to read the bit from "El Mercurio" - if anyone is >>> interested - it seems that it has a list of contents which is in three >>> sections, French Spanish and Italian pieces. The Italian pieces are > missing >>> but are arrangements of Corelli - nothing new there then! It contains 87 >>> pieces, 42 of which are new. It is not clear whether it has a title page >>> with Murcia's name on it or whether it is attributed to him because some > of >>> the pieces are known to be by him.. >>> >>> It has an introduction in which Murcia - or the writer explains that the >>> guitar may be accompanied by another intsrument - which is rather >>> interesting. >>> >>> Vera is going to give a lecture and recital (with theorbo accompaniment) > on >>> 28th September so perhaps that will be written up somewhere. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Monica >>> >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > >
[VIHUELA] Santiago de Murcia
Dear Monica and list Actually there's a picture of the MS title page at El Mercurio note. It's very small, but I think it goes like this: Cifras selectas de guitarra Por Don Santiago de Murcia Maestro de la Reina [2 letters not clear: NS?] Doña Maria Luisa de Saboya Año de MDCCXXII [date unclear] Handwriting doesn't look like that of the 2 other Murcia MSs. I don't remember Murcia calling himself "Don" in Resumen or Passacalles. Could this MS be a compilation of works by Murcia made by someone else?... Best regards Eloy Cruz El 9/23/06 11:59 AM, "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > Many thanks for that. Apparently there will be an article about it in > "Early Music" (the English periodical published by O.U.P.) in May 2007. > > I will have to be patient until then I think. > > Having had time to read the bit from "El Mercurio" - if anyone is > interested - it seems that it has a list of contents which is in three > sections, French Spanish and Italian pieces. The Italian pieces are missing > but are arrangements of Corelli - nothing new there then! It contains 87 > pieces, 42 of which are new. It is not clear whether it has a title page > with Murcia's name on it or whether it is attributed to him because some of > the pieces are known to be by him.. > > It has an introduction in which Murcia - or the writer explains that the > guitar may be accompanied by another intsrument - which is rather > interesting. > > Vera is going to give a lecture and recital (with theorbo accompaniment) on > 28th September so perhaps that will be written up somewhere. > > Regards > > Monica > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
