[VIHUELA] Amat's 7 string guitar
Could someone more knowledgeable than myself tell me when, if ever, reprints of Amat's 'Guitarra Espanola...' dropped the section for the 4 course guitar? Please? Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] 3 short pieces from the Ulm MS for mandore
Nice playing Stuart. I have made both 4 and 5 course mandores (photo on my picture on lute.ning). 4 course for plectrum, 5 course for fingers. A 5 course playing Skene, etc is on several CDs by Rob McKillop - 6 strings using an octave on the 5th as suggested by Donald Gill. Size and appearance derived from the well-known painting by Baugin. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] James' video
Many thanks for this, Monica. Just right for a damp Sunday morning! Somewhere in the 1970s I heard James playing banjo with what must have been members of the London EMG. I seem to remember George Weigand but am not sure of the others. This was at the King's Lynn Festival and it rather surprised both the usual slightly staid Festival audience, and the Jazz fans who weren't expecting James' quite lengthy introductions! Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Holding the baroque guitar
Some time ago there was reference to gut loops on the rear of lutes and guitars. Michael Fleming has just sent me details of a painting recently sold by Sothebys which apparently shows a loop of ribbon attached to a nail(!) near the centre of the back of a small 5 course guitar - slightly toward the bass side. Auctioned at Sothebys, New Bond St, 24 April, lot no 56 in a sale of Old Master Paintings. Artist: David Ryckaert, Antwerp 1612 - 61. I could send an attachment to anybody interested today or tomorrow, but anticipate being offline for some days from Monday. Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: seeking out the soft underbelly of a hard shelled question
on 13/5/08 7:03 am, Arthur Ness at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I believe there is just one Voboam guitar that uses a complete > shell of a tortoise, although indeed that family's guitars did > use tortoise shell for decoration, as Peter notes below. The > guitar in question is at the Cite de la Musique in Paris, and is > attributed to Nicholas Alexandre Voboam II (after 1633-ca. 1693). > It seems to be one of a kind, at least in the known Voboam > family output. The head and legs are ceramic (thank goodness!). > > The Museum of Fine Arts in Boston also now owns a standard guitar > by the same luthier. > It belonged originally to a member of Louis XIV's court at > Versailles, where "Everyone at court wanted to learn [the > guitar], and God alone can imagine the universal scraping and > plucking that ensued." ThaT probably accounts for the demise of > the lute in France. > > You can see and hear Chris Henriksen play the MFA's Voboam here: > > http://tinyurl.com/3zncjt > > To hear other instruments, including one of its citterns, take > the > Museum's "Audio Tour" of plucked instruments. > > The some 129 instruments (including the Voboams mentioned here) > in the MFA's exhibition (a whopping 140,000 persons saw the > exhibition) may be seen in Darsie Kuronen, _*Dangerous Curves: > Art of the Guitar*_ (Boston: MFA, 2000). Darsie was recently > elected vice-president of AMIS, and we are so fortunate to have > him in Boston, where he is revitalizing the Department of Musical > Instruments.. The core of the Museum's collection of musical > instruments was purchased from Canon Galpin in 1941. > > An important musical instrument collection (the second largest in > France, I am advised) is due to open soon in Nice. > =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= > This week's free download from Classical Music Library is > > Mendelssohn's Symphony No. 4 in A, op. 90 'Italian', performed by > the > Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; Stefan Sanderling, conductor. More > information about this piece is available on our music blog > [http://cts.vresp.com/c/?AlexanderStreetPress/b125e4d442/9d403851a0/bb5f347e 57> ] > . > To download, click on the CML link here > http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ > === > > - Original Message - > From: "Peter Forrester" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Christopher Davies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "cittern" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 3:19 PM > Subject: [CITTERN] Re: seeking out the soft underbelly of a hard > shelled question > > > | on 12/5/08 4:05 pm, Christopher Davies at [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > | > | > Can anyone shed light on this question: What is the > historical evidence for > | > using tortoiseshell on Renaissance/Baroque plucked > instruments? My 18th c. > | > cetra features a tortoiseshell fingerboard, and I wonder at > what point this > | > practice (or likewise use as decorative inlay on belly) is > documented. > | > I have some lovely faux tortoiseshell (granted, a 19th c. > creation) from > | > Turtleworks company and am tempted to use it on something > other than an > | > English guittar. > | > thanks, > | > christopher davies > | > > | > > | > > | > To get on or off this list see list information at > | > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > | > > | Plenty of tortoiseshell used on Voboam (Parisian) guitars. > Earliest I can > | think of off-hand is the Rene Voboam in the Ashmolean, 1640(?). > There may > | well be earlier examples by the Sellas family in Venice. If > you don't have > | enough for a guitar, there are plenty of cithrinchen by Tielke > at the end of > | the century. > | > | Best wishes, > | > | Peter > | > | > | > > > It is nearly thirty years since I saw the Voboam 'charango' then in the Paris Conservatoire museum, and I remember it as a sophisticated version of the South American instrument - tatou (armadillo) rather than tortue (tortoise). But it certainly uses tortoiseshell and is probably on their website. Should anybody become really serious about making a tortoiseshell guitar, there are drawings available of at least three examples: Rene Voboam 1641, Ashmolean Museum, Oxford. Jean (?) Voboam ca. 1680, Royal College of Music, London. Jean Voboam 1687, (was musee de la conservatoire, presumably now) Cite de la Musique, Paris. After looking, I could not find any serious use of tortoiseshell in Venice. After Paris, both Fleischer (eg in Paris) and Tielke (V&A etc) in Hamburg seem to be the
[VIHUELA] {EARLY_GUIT} 4c music.. is there any?
Please excuse me if I have missed something, having only been thinking about citterns recently, but.. Rasguedo or, more properly? strummed music does seem to exist for the 4c guitar from England. See John M. Ward: Sprightly and Cheerful Musicke, Lute Society Journal 1979-81. The Osborn Commonplace-book, circa 1560, now in Yale University, has nineteen short and simple pieces mostly consisting of chords, with a gittern tuning. At this date they are likely to be for the little guitar, gut strung, rather than the wire-strung re-tuned treble cittern of the 17thc. There are very few pictures of the 4c guitar in England so that it is perhaps worth listing them here: 1568 marquetry on the "Eglantine' table in Hardwick Hall, Derbyshire. 1568 portrait of Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, printed in the 'Bishop's Bible'. c.1590 mural painting in Hengrave Hall, Suffolk. 1604 twice in Stephen Harrison, print of 'The Archs of Triumph'. Any more? Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Palmer fretting
on 30/11/07 3:00 am, Alexander Batov at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Dear Peter, > > First of all, thanks very much for your drawing-comparison of different fret > patterns (some of which are from the other source than Darryl Martin's > drawing). I don't know what to say about the differences ... Maybe Darryl > reads from this list and can comment on this. For the time being his drawing > (and the accompanying measurements) is the only official source of > information about the instrument, so I have little choice but rely on them. > > As for my, as you say, "discovery", well I haven't really discovered > anything (anybody can do it in just about five minutes or so). Besides, > that's what one would expect anyway from any 'workable' fingerboard on this > sort of instrument - a mixture(!), rather than strict adherence to one of > the regular patterns, be it ET or one of MTs. So it's not just of the > "meantone nature" but something in-between the two. > > The comparison table that you've made gives a good visual idea of > irregularities in the arrangement of frets. However, we are dealing with > rather small distances here, so perhaps the best way to analyze such > fingerboard would be to use deviation figures in cents from the equal > temperament. I might actually do this analysis later which in a way would be > continuation of what is already there in the table. Then it would be easier > to see the logic behind the arrangement and what steps were taken (if they > were taken at all ...?) towards choosing one temperament (or the direction > of shifting to / from it) in favour of the other. To illustrate what I'm > talking about, lets just take at least the first three "crucial" frets of > the Palmer orpharion. > > Open courses: G c f a d' g' > > fret1: G#, c#, f#, b-flat, e-flat, (g# or a-flat) > > fret2: A, d, g, b, e, a > > fret3: B-flat, e-flat, (g# or a-flat), c, f , b-flat > > For example, G#, c# and f# on the 1-st fret can perhaps be all sacrificed at > the expense of choosing more favourable fret shift for b-flat, e-flat and > a-flat (i.e. they are all useful in B-flat, E-flat and g-flat chords) from > 30.5mm where it is now (closer to a rather "mild" 1/8 MT @ 30.7mm), to 1/5 > or even 1/4 MT @ 32.7mm or 34.3mm accordingly. > > In a similar vein, B-flat, e-flat, a-flat and b-flat can all benefit by > shifting the 3-rd fret from 83.3mm (which is very close to ET @ 83.1mm) to > either 1/6 or 1/5 MT @ 84.3mm and 84.9mm accordingly. > > The second fret is positioned @ 55.5mm (closer to 1/5 MT @ 55.7mm) > This is a difficult one! The f-course on the second fret should be perfectly > in octave with both G- and g'-courses and, at the same time, when open - in > octave with the d'-course on the third fret; plus the a-course - in > octave with the g'-course on the second fret. I would probably choose a > rather "milder" 1/8 instead of 1/5 MT here but it all in the end depends how > the intervals between the open courses are tempered. > > Anyway, it's all that never ending circle. And please don't take too > seriously the freedom with which I'm 'shifting' frets on the precious > Palmer; it's only to give an idea! > > Alexander > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > Dear All, Just a swift hands-on addendum rather than rejoinder. During the 1960s everything was in ET. My involvement with fixed fret instruments fortunately coincided with a number of professional and semi-professional lutenists taking an interest in meantone tuning and moving their frets accordingly - sometimes even angling them(!). My initial research consisted of asking those musicians at a Lute Society summer school of the mid 1970s, in which direction they moved their frets and how much? They all moved their frets in the same direction to a greater or lesser degree. Only Anthony Bailes was able to give numerical values. (Perhaps I should add that all those I approached, despite the difference of degree, went on to successful careers!). Important early articles were by Eugene Dombois, JLSA 1974 and The Lute 1982; Abbott and Segerman, FoMRHI October 1977. During an Illness in bed I laboriously (no musical training) worked my way through initially Holborne and Robinson, and later Virchi, Kargel and etc for the cittern; Holborne, Barley etc for the bandora and lute music for the orpharion, looking for enharmonics. These could be allowable in runs where the quickness of the hand could deceive the ear, but especially not in chords. Segerman's 1977 article suggested that frets could be 'averaged'. I disputed this in July 1983. On the cittern the only 'averaged' fret is the 11th. Other enharmonic frets are avoided by the music. For both bandora and orpharion there are potential problems on the 1st, 4th and 6th frets, particularly for orpharion. Lute players can move their frets but orpharion players may
[VIHUELA] Palmer fretting
Dear Alexander and All, Alexander's discovery of so many ET positions apparent in the fret measurements accompanying the museum plan of the Palmer orpharion has prompted me to produce a drawing which perhaps better illustrates the meantone nature of the fingerboard. I also possess another drawing of the fingerboard made at least thirty years ago which mostly agrees with the bass side measurements, but not with the treble. Something is wrong. Is there anybody out there who has another set please? Meantone fretting implies different sized spaces between frets for chromatic and diatonic semitones. The pattern which lutenists playing renaissance lutes with a 'g' tuning use, is, from the nut: large, small, large, small, large, small, large, large, small, large, small, large. The 12th fret is at the same position for ET and meantone fretting of course, the 5th and 7th frets especially, are very close to the same positions, others vary. These spacings are very much more apparent on a drawing than as a series of numbers. Other considerations are the possible incorporation of 'just' fret positions - these seem to be present in Rose's Helmingham instrument; that equal temperament was known, even if not used; that it is very easy to 'bend' a wire note into tune, especially further up the fingerboard. The drawing shows side-by-side and reduced to the same overall length for the octave, fret positions for ET, 1/6th comma, treble and bass (marked M) from the published plan, treble and bass from the earlier drawing (marked A), 1/6th comma, ET. As the cittern net will not permit attachments I will have to ask that anyone who wishes should email me personally so that I can attach the drawing by reply. While experimenting (as a non-literate internet user) by sending myself copies, I produced attachments at both 72 and 300 dpi, so if you have a preference both work. Best wishes, Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] chitarra battentes and wire
Dear all, Sorry to be late, have been away. 16/17th c. iron/steel is a subject with a lot of gaps. My article on Andrew Hartig's website at www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com tries to outline its application to the cittern in England. For various reasons - constituents of the iron ore available, temperature achievable, skill of the workman etc, its quality varied considerably. The breaking strain of gut is higher than iron or inferior steels, hence from time to time at the end of the 16th c., the orpharion needed its metal top string to be replaced with gut. Lord Tollemache' bandora (was called orpharion) at Helmingham was restrung by myself last november with iron and brass strings. As far as I know it has never needed gut. I suspect (and James Tyler disagreed when we last spoke!) that the chitarra battante originated when players tried the effect of substituting metal for gut from around the middle of the 17th c. The same thing was done to lutes. Obviously, because the breaking strain of iron is less than that of gut, they would need to be tuned to a lower pitch. Hence necks would need to be shortened and bridges moved if the pitch was to be unchanged. There are many examples of instruments where the string length has been shortened to around 57-58cm. The Ashmolean Sellas, and the Royal College of Music Voboam, are examples where the neck is still as original (and preserve an unaltered sound-board?); presumably they were played at a fourth or fifth low. Later chitarra battentes were purpose built. Two examples that I have measured are in Brussels, nos.- 1549 and 3181, string lengths 57.1 and 57.9cm. A very pretty chitarrina battente, sl 37.6, is in Rome. These three all look 18thc. The instrument illustrated in Baines looks from its decoration to be of an earlier date, probably middle-late 17thc. It was in a private collection in England a few years ago. String length 61cm, so perhaps tuned to d'? All four of these instruments are made from walnut which seems to be standard for cbs. They are being made again in Italy, perhaps never stopped (see the GSJ article); I heard one played in Avignon three-four years ago. Conversions to cb. differ from later 19thc - these latter end up with a string length around 63-65cm. Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] 9 pegs
I'm sure that I've seen at least one more illustration of a 9 peg guitar. However there is at least one actual instrument - Giovanni Tesler, Ancona, 1618; Musee Instrumentale, Nice. cat G.1784. Several illustrations in: Guitares, pub. Flute de Pan, 1980. I believe that the neck has been shortened and perhaps the bridge replaced. Otherwise it seems very original. Happy New Year, Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] lutes in Spain and holiday problems
Dear all, The recent mention on the vihuela website of Spanish lutes as being non-Christian(?) has prompted me to submit the following. My wife and I were on holiday in north west Spain recently. The group that we were with was mostly concerned with Roman remains, of course I was looking out for musical instruments. We visited Santiago and also saw fine sets of musical angels around three of the cathedral doors in Leon. There were various guitar/vihuela shapes in several locations, mostly out of camera range. One 4 course (?) guitar in Lugo cathedral had a vaulted back. In Astorga there are carvings of lutes in very prominent positions above both main doors. Above the earlier doorway, circa 1550-60, a roundel with a low-relief lute is paired with a bowed instrument, probably a vielle. The later baroque doorway has a guitar or vihuela paired with the lute. My bus was leaving in rather less than fifteen minutes, however I decide to dash through both the cathedral and its museum to look for similar pairs. There were none, however a very fine late renaissance/baroque organ case has several angels playing instruments. Included are a pair of small guitars. That on the left looks shallow and vihuela-like, that on the right is deeper and may very well be a real instrument, in particular the pegs seemed clear and not sculpted. (The organ case is quite high). I bought a guide book and caught my bus. Looking through the guide book (printed in 1991) I found a picture of the organ but the right-hand guitar was not there. In its place is a small cittern. These are of course even rarer than original guitars, especially in Spain from where I know of only one fingerboard, from an Armada shipwreck. Also in the guide, and missing or unnoticed by me, is a large free-standing figure above the earlier doorway playing a large bowed vihuela (?) with a flat tied bridge, similar to those shown by Ian Woodfield but dating from later than 1550. Are there any musicians or instrument makers in north west Spain who could investigate further? Another lute in an unexpectedly prominent position is shown with its case in a wood inlay panel in the Escorial, again rather high to photograph, near the entrance to the Patio of los Reyes? Peter Forrester To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
dedillo
To the "plectrum/dedillo" list could be added Mersenne's four course mandore, where he mentions the possibility of a plectrum tied to a finger. (On a plectrum instrument this would also have the effect of freeing the thumb enabling the playing of chords with holes on this mandore and four course citterns.) Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Melii
Melii's citara tiorbata is a theorboed cittern, not a guitar; as we can tell from the tuning used. This is that of Paolo Virchi of Brescia's 1574 book for 6 and 7 course cittern. Paolo was son of Girolamo, maker of the highly decorated and well-known cittern in Vienna, and another in Paris. I know of only one representation of a theorboed cittern; in the background of several copies by assistants, of an apparently missing painting by Everisto Baschensis. Any information about others very gratefully received. Peter Forrester To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
