[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
With all due respect, I think when we start to assess fingerings (or any other performance issue) purely on the basis of our own technical abilities, we impose our own idiosyncrasies on the subject. Surely we can agree on that, if only in principal? I am okay with either fingering, I'm simply pointing out that, from a purely practical point of view, what is expedient in one situation might not work in another - I'm not sure that an optimum method actually exists. On the contrary, flexibility tends to be an asset. My question was, when viewed collectively, do the sources actually indicate a preference, and if so, is it on the grounds of what seems most expedient, or are there other reasons? Perhaps Murcia is a bad example (although I have to admit, I'm don't really see why). Best, Ralph - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 1:37 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: RALPH MAIER rkcma...@shaw.ca Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu I don't think that it is particularly convenient or good practice to finger the chord in the way you suggest. It is quite awkward as both 2nd and 4th fingers are in the way. I do wonder whether you have actually tried it in conjunction with other chords. Some of the chords are quite difficult to finger and playing sequences of them in quick succession does require a lot of practice. The fingering of them is given in many of the sources and is the optimum method. Murcia is a different kettle of fish altogether and I think it would not be wise to get involved with that. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]RALPH MAIER To: [2]Monica Hall Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar The chord I'm referring to - the g chord with a doubled 3rd (20003) - can easily be fingered using 1 and 3, so I'm not sure I follow. As a side note, then, I've noticed many passages in Murcia, for example, where my inclination would be to use 4 instead of his recommendation for 3 - and here I'm referring specifically to passagework. Often times such fingerings in the sources raise interesting questions regarding articulation, especially when working under the assumption that they would have shared contemporary tastes regarding legato (not that I'm suggesting they would - on the contrary). On the other hand, it could also be something as simple as personal preferences. RM - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 2:09 pm Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: RALPH MAIER rkcma...@shaw.ca Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu If anything I would say there is a definite preference for using the 4th finger but I don't think it really bears on this topic. Whichever of the two chord fingerings you chose the 1st course must be stopped at the 3rd fret with the 4th/little finger - whatever you wish to call it. Chords are sometimes re-fingered to free the 4th finger for passing notes and to insert 4-3 suspensions into chords. Monica - Original Message - From: RALPH MAIER To: Monica Hall Cc: Martyn Hodgson ; Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 8:37 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar Interesting thread. Just a thought, and I'm obviously spitballing, but I wonder if there is anything that might be gleaned from this observation in regards to the use of the fourth finger in general. Is there anything in the sources that might suggest its avoidance/preference? Just curious. - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 am Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Well - I pointed out in my original message that the earliest sources of alfabeto - i.e. Montesardo and the Cancionero Bezon - actually give the 20003 version. I think that the reason for this is that on the 4-course guitar the equivalent is 0003 and initially the most
[VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
Interesting thread. Just a thought, and I'm obviously spitballing, but I wonder if there is anything that might be gleaned from this observation in regards to the use of the fourth finger in general. Is there anything in the sources that might suggest its avoidance/preference? Just curious. - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 am Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Well - I pointed out in my original message that the earliest sources of alfabeto - i.e. Montesardo and the Cancionero Bezon - actually give the 20003 version. I think that the reason for this is that on the 4-course guitar the equivalent is 0003 and initially the most convenient note on the 5th course was just added. So the real question is why did they change? This morning when I was practicing I tried playing Chord A with an unstopped 2nd course in all the relevant places and it just is less convenient. The 3rd finger is floating above the fingerboard with nothing to do. And as Stewart pointed out the commonest progression is A - C , G major/D major and stopping the 2nd course at the 3rd fret is more secure. It provides a pivot as you shift from one to the other. It does seem to me that the reason for the change was purely practical. From a musical point of view the difference in the way the two versionssounded seemed negligible to me. I don't think that doubling the 3rd was an issue. I also pointed out that some of the other chords have the 3rd doubled. In particular the C major chord - B. Nobody seems bothered about that. Really - I stick by what I have said. The chords are arranged in the way in which they fit conveniently on the fingerboard. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.ukTo: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.ukCc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.eduSent: Monday, September 10, 2012 4:13 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar Dear Monica, When you write 'The point is that the alfabeto chords (and other chords) are arranged in the way that most conveniently fits them on to the guitar fingerboard. The order of the notes and which ones are doubled is determined by practical considerations not by what anyone may have learnt in their harmony course.' your second sentence about the irrelevance of formal rules of harmony seems to me to accurately reflect how these chords probably became established. However the first sentence begs the original question: viz. why show as 20033 rather than 20003? Here, as others have already pointed out, I really do think there was some conscious decision made (by strummers before the days of recorded alfabeto) - in my view probably to duplicate the fifth rather than the third because the latter was already strong being the first course struck in a downwards strum. Also if there is a bourdon on the fourth course (ie the Corbetta/ French tuning which might reflect an earlier practice than generally recorded - certainly the four course guitar had an octave on the fourth course) if the 2nd course were taken open you would only have one string (the higher of the fifth course) for the upper octave fifth but four strings for the thirds; in this case fingering the 2nd course gives more equality between the thirds and fifths rgds Martyn --- On Mon, 10/9/12, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.comCc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 10 September, 2012, 14:32 Well - I think we are getting a bit bogged down here. The point is that the alfabeto chords (and other chords) are arranged in the way that most conveniently fits them on to the guitar fingerboard. The order of the notes and which ones are doubled is determined by practical considerations not by what anyone may have learnt in their harmony course. Most of them can't be easily be rearranged or refingered and in the context in which they are used there is not a lot of point in doing so. In what circumtances would you want to use one form of Chord A rather than another? The chords in Sanz' Labyrinth are the same
[VIHUELA] Re: Murcia - Cifras selectas online
Fabulous! Thanks very much for this, Monica. Ralph - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 4:56 am Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Murcia - Cifras selectas online To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu I just received this message. Those of you who are interested in Murcia will be pleased that a decent image of Cifras selectas is now available. It is with great pleasure that I inform you that the manuscript Cifras selectas de guitarra (1722) by Santiago de Murcia has recently been scanned and is now available in the web site of my university library. To access it you must enter the following link: http://aleph.uc.cl/F/-/?func=filefile_name=find-b Then you should write in the search box Cifras selectas de guitarra or some related term. Then click on the item (i.e.the number 2 which brings up the complete record) and, finally, in Enlace a texto original digitalizado (Link to scanned original text). In addition, the PDF includes a copy of the Resumen de acompanar la parte con la guitarra, bound with the manuscript. It took me a good half hour to download it but it is a much better image that the published one - perfectly clear in fact. Monica De: Monica Hall [mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk] Enviado el: lunes, 26 de septiembre de 2011 10:06 Para: ALEJANDRO PATRICIO VERA AGUILERA Asunto: Re: Cifras selectas again Dear Alejandro Many thanks for the article. It was interesting to read it again especially as a single article rather than two separate ones. In my dissertation I compared Ms.1560 with the other Murcia sorces in detail but I didn't conclude that it was copied by the same person! Perhaps the work of a student or someone who knew him! Best wishes Monica - Original Message - From: ALEJANDRO PATRICIO VERA AGUILERA ave...@uc.cl To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 5:59 PM Subject: RE: Cifras selectas again Dear Monica, Among your examples, I think the h and the upper case Greek E show the most striking resemblance. Nonetheless, the y and lower case p are always different. Additionally,in the tablature the number 5 is not same, and the quavers above the staff are slightly different. That's why I think that Resumen and Cifras involved two different copyists, even if making an engraving is different from writing free-hand. Anyway, I share your opinion that there is not enough evidence to make definitive assertions on the point. Currently, my hypothesis is that Murcia's manuscripts might have been copied by someone paid by him, but as you say, new information can discard or confirm it. I recall to have read in your dissertation that the hand in Ms. 1560 was similar to that in Murcia's Passacalles y obras. When I compared the two sources, many years ago, the hand seemed different to me. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find my copy of Ms. 1560 to make the comparison again. But I hope to find it soon. I send you a PDF copy of my article for Roseta. Apart from the S and one or two other points, there is no new information in relation to Early Music articles and the Cifras edition. But I hope it achieves to present some topics from another perspective. Best wishes, Alejandro Vera De: Monica Hall [mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk] Enviado el: jueves, 15 de septiembre de 2011 12:12 Para: ALEJANDRO PATRICIO VERA AGUILERA Asunto: Re: Cifras selectas again Dear Alejandro Thank you for sparing the time to reply to my message. I have the same problem. Very few people in England have a scholarly interest in the baroque guitar. I am still interested in Murcia although at the moment I am concentrating on other parts of the repertoire. Murcia's signature is not very helpful.There appears to be an o before the g and a double tt - Santtiaog with another o hanging from the g. It is done in a fancy way for effect. The M is similar to his signature to the Dedicatoria in Resumen. You say that Resumen's copyist is not the same as that of the three manuscripts. Do you have proof that this is so? There is the extended written passage at the beginning of Cifras selectas to compare with the text in Resumen. Some of the very distinctive letters are the same in both sources. In the Dedicatoria to Resumen -the h and the little d in Haumadas -the large lower case r in
[VIHUELA] Re: Pakistani Baroque Guitar?
Thanks for this. It may be a good opportunity for students to get into it. Anyone tried them yet? Ralph - Original Message - From: Luca Manassero l...@manassero.net Date: Thursday, October 14, 2010 3:45 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Pakistani Baroque Guitar? To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear List, a member of the French list pointed to this German music shop: http://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_baroque_guitar.htm The Renaissance lute looks *really* awful, but the baroque guitar less so: of course will probably sound as a stringed cigar box, but who knows? (click on the guitar picture to get a lot more detailed pictures) Luca To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: Sanseverino
Thanks very much for this, Monica. Much of the work I'll be doing this Spring and next Fall will involve some very capable singers. With any luck some of this will see some action fairly soon. Cheers. Ralph Maier - Original Message - From: Rob MacKillop luteplay...@googlemail.com Date: Sunday, January 24, 2010 9:34 am Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Sanseverino To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Brilliant, as ever. I did not intend to send you a note asking for your interest in the site. I sent a note out saying that to prevent spammers joing us from now on all new members must be approved by me, and therefore I ask THEM to provide me with some info. Sorry if there was confusion! Cheers, Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
It's interesting that Murcia would suggest a partial barre with the 2nd finger in his table. There are however plenty of instances where the I chord is written out using a partial barre with the first finger (for example, the Gallarda fol.5, line 2, m.3). If you find the barre difficult you might want to check your left hand position. The large knuckle at the base of the finger needs to be slightly ahead of the fingerboard and the tip segment has to be kept loose. Be persistent - eventually it will make your life much easier. Happy playing. Ralph - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009 3:22 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I To: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear Stewart This is fascinating!! Thank you for confirming what I had thought was the case, that this is the standard fingering for the A major chord in 17th-century guitar books: a___ _2__c___ _1__c___ _1__c___ a___ That is the fingering I try to use now. The great advantage is that you can trill on the 2nd course using your 4th finger at the 3rd fret. You get plenty of leverage trilling between the 2nd and 4th fingers, more than you would trilling with the 3rd and 4th fingers. I'll have to try that tomorrow morning. I normally trill with the 3rd and 4th fingers. This particular chord often has the d on the 2nd course as 4-3 suspension which I play with the 4th finger. There are many ways of fingering that A major chord. The commonest seen in modern guitar tutors is a___ _3__c___ _2__c___ _1__c___ a___ That's OK if you have thin fingers, but there is always the danger that the 1st finger won't get close enough to the 2nd fret, and you'll get a buzz. Yes - that's the fingering I use - and I guess I have much thinner fingures than all you gentleman - so thin in fact that I don't find stopping double courses easy. I keep thinking maybe I should get the spacing reduced between the strings of each course. One way of avoiding that, is to use this fingering: a___ _3__c___ _1__c___ _2__c___ a___ which I sometimes use, particularly if hopping back and forth between chords of A and D major, because the 1st and 3rd fingers stay on the same string. Otherwise I go for the first fingering above. There are so many ways of doing things. So far no one seems to opt for the 2nd finger barre! I must try them all in the morning. Regards Monica -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute- a...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 11 October 2009 15:22 To: Rob MacKillop Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I That's very helpful and interesting what you say about the technique being standard for blues and jazz. There's obviously a long tradition there. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Rob MacKillop To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Chord I I use the 2nd finger on the 2nd course, and the first finger on the other two courses. I have no problem with the open first string sounding. I show beginner-ish students this technique and invariable they can't bend their first finger inwards at the first joint, but some who have played blues and or jazz guitar before have no problem - it is fairly standard technique for those styles. Rob 2009/10/11 Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk This is a rather abstruse query. In most Italian guitar tables of alfabeto chords which include the left hand fingering the indication is that Chord I is to be played using a half (or hinge) barre to stop the 4th and 3rd courses and the 2nd finger to stop the 2nd course at the 2nd fret. 0 21 21 22 0 This doesn't seem to me the most convenient way of doing it especially when combined with other chords and I always use 1st, 2nd and 3rd fingers. Ruiz de Ribayaz does give my preferred fingering as an alternative to the Italian one. Both Sanz and Murcia
[VIHUELA] Re: dedilo
I'd also be keen on finding out how many players use it, and to what extent. If you want to hear it in use might I be so bold as to suggest checking out my CD as well. I seem to recall using dedillo on almost every track. Ralph PS: glad the website discussion was useful to you. - Original Message - From: Oskar De Mari oskar_demari_jo...@hotmail.com Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 5:27 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] dedilo To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear wise ones, does anyone know of any discussion of Dedillo technique by modern players besides Ralph Maier's excellent presentation? I'm in contact with Jacob Heringman and he has promised to write to me about his use of dedillo (you can hear it in his Milan disk with Catherine King). Other than this I'm comming up dry. Thanks all, O __ Make ninemsn your homepage! [1]Get the latest news, goss and sport -- References 1. http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=813730 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: Hi All
I agree. What's wrong with the capo? Yes, we're way past any notions of fixed pitch. Technical expedience and audience perceptions aside, the advantage of the capo and reason I encourage students to at least give it a whirl is that it allows the player to temporarily suspend his disbelief. In other words, the point isn't really that it sounds more lute/vihuela-like but rather that it sounds a bit less guitar-like. My $0.02 worth. Ralph - Original Message - From: Rob MacKillop luteplay...@googlemail.com Date: Thursday, December 11, 2008 12:08 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Hi All To: G. Crona kalei...@gmail.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu I would say keep the capo. One advantage for modern classical guitar programmes is to make your repertoire from different periods sound a little different. There is less resonance but more transparency with a capo, and, yes, it does make some passages easier for the left hand. But there were vihuelas in E, but I think pitch is less important than a clear sound. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
Hello again, Thanks to all for your comments. There aren't many players in this part of the country to bounce ideas off of, and its nice to have your feedback. I wrote the article a few years ago as a final project for a grad seminar to help me come to terms with what I saw as a few basic fundamentals outlined in the sources and already discussed by others, and to clarify what was for me a newly adopted instrument and playing style. The examples are laid out roughly in order of difficulty, with the intention of serving as a starting point for players. A good way of learning dedillo would be to use the article as a template and supplement it with similar passages from the sources. One of my first concert outings with the vihuela was a recital sponsored by the Classical Guitar Society here in Calgary, in which I decided to play some of the Mudarra fantasias - great examples of dedillo. Before playing them, I talked a bit about the instrument and the idea of dedillo. After the concert, I was approached by several collegues - both respectable players and teachers - who confessed not really being able to hear much of a difference between dedillo and dos dedos. The fact is that even up close the difference in sound can be subtle. Still, there are many situations where using dedillo is a lifesaver, and its a great thing to help round out your toolbox. Cheers. Ralph - Original Message - From: bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 11:24 am Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo To: Monica Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu thank you, monica. actually, i knew that ... just got a little disoriented with all these wizzing fingers. i'm sure there's a degree of subtility to be gained from finger picking - as opposed to plectrum picking - and effects as yet unknown to me ... but so far, i much prefer the pick. it's louder, for one thing and makes a consistant, syncopated sound that in finger picking sounds just a little mechanical - imho. but with all effects i've noticed that paired courses make a fuller, more musical sound. - bill --- Monica Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes - the vihuela must have been played with a plectrum originally. It was called a vihuela de pendula I think - to distinguish it from the vihuela de mano and vihuela de arco.. In fact most plucked stringed instruments, including the lute and the guitar were played with plectra as a matter of course until the end of the 15th century - and probably played only a single line. Playing finger style in several parts began to be deveolped towards the end of the 15th century - as I understand it. Monica - Original Message - From: bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: RALPH MAIER [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 'Vihuela Net' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:35 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo thank you - my thumb over technigue doesn't exist and it's a relief to know that sig. fuenilana preferred the (to me, infinitly more natural) thumb-under. was the vihuela - any vihuela - ever played with a plectrum? bienvenuto - bill --- RALPH MAIER [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, The other two are do dedos (thumb and finger like most lutenists), and index and middle finger (like modern guitarists). The last was apparently Fuenllana's fingering of choice. Ralph - Original Message - From: bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:03 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo To: 'Vihuela Net' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] archiving (is that a word?) problems from your address might be spam related. it happened to me once and i felt just awful about it (my italian server was to blame ...) in ralph maier's excellent article there's a quote in translation from miguel de fuenllana which mentions ... three ways [in] which [they] customarily are played on this instrument, the vihuela. only one - dedillo - is elaborated. please, what are the other two? - bill --- Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wayne has told me that the archive computer has decided it doesn't like me...and is refusing to archive my posts. I'm trying not to take this personally. BTW, Ralph Maier, he of the online article re dedillo (and excellent vihuela playing) has joined our list. Welcome, friend. Rob www.rmguitar.info To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
Hi all, The other two are do dedos (thumb and finger like most lutenists), and index and middle finger (like modern guitarists). The last was apparently Fuenllana's fingering of choice. Ralph - Original Message - From: bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:03 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo To: 'Vihuela Net' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] archiving (is that a word?) problems from your address might be spam related. it happened to me once and i felt just awful about it (my italian server was to blame ...) in ralph maier's excellent article there's a quote in translation from miguel de fuenllana which mentions ... three ways [in] which [they] customarily are played on this instrument, the vihuela. only one - dedillo - is elaborated. please, what are the other two? - bill --- Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wayne has told me that the archive computer has decided it doesn't like me...and is refusing to archive my posts. I'm trying not to take this personally. BTW, Ralph Maier, he of the online article re dedillo (and excellent vihuela playing) has joined our list. Welcome, friend. Rob www.rmguitar.info To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ ___Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/ --
