Interesting thread. Just a thought, and I'm obviously spitballing, but I wonder if there is anything that might be gleaned from this observation in regards to the use of the fourth finger in general. Is there anything in the sources that might suggest its avoidance/preference? Just curious. ----- Original Message ----- From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Date: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:58 am Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar To: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Well - I pointed out in my original message that the > earliest sources of > alfabeto - i.e. Montesardo and the Cancionero Bezon - actually > give the > 20003 version. I think that the reason for this is that on > the 4-course > guitar the equivalent is 0003 and initially the most convenient > note on the > 5th course was just added. > > So the real question is why did they change? This > morning when I was > practicing I tried playing Chord A with an unstopped 2nd course > in all the > relevant places and it just is less convenient. The > 3rd finger is floating > above the fingerboard with nothing to do. And as Stewart > pointed out the > commonest progression is A - C , G major/D major and > stopping the 2nd > course at the 3rd fret is more secure. It provides a pivot > as you shift > from one to the other. It does seem to me that the reason for > the change was purely practical. > > From a musical point of view the difference in the way the two > versionssounded seemed negligible to me. I don't > think that doubling the 3rd was an > issue. > > I also pointed out that some of the other chords have the 3rd > doubled. In particular the C major chord - > B. Nobody seems bothered about that. > > Really - I stick by what I have said. The chords are > arranged in the way in which they fit conveniently on the fingerboard. > > Regards > > Monica > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" > <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>To: "Monica Hall" > <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>Cc: "Vihuelalist" > <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 > 4:13 PM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar > > > > > > Dear Monica, > > > > When you write 'The point is that the > alfabeto chords (and other > > chords) are arranged in the way that most conveniently > fits them on to > > the guitar fingerboard. The order of the notes and > which ones are > > doubled is determined by practical considerations > not by what anyone > > may have learnt in their harmony course.' > your second sentence about > > the irrelevance of formal rules of harmony seems to me > to accurately > > reflect how these chords probably became established. > > > > However the first sentence begs the original question: > viz. why show > > as 20033 rather than 20003? Here, as others > have already pointed > > out, I really do think there was some conscious decision > made (by > > strummers before the days of recorded alfabeto) - > in my view probably > > to duplicate the fifth rather than the third because the > latter was > > already strong being the first course struck in a > downwards strum. > > > > Also if there is a bourdon on the fourth course (ie the > Corbetta/> French tuning which might reflect an earlier > practice than generally > > recorded - certainly the four course guitar had an > octave on the fourth > > course) if the 2nd course were taken open you > would only have one > > string (the higher of the fifth course) for the upper > octave fifth but > > four strings for the thirds; in this case fingering the 2nd > > course gives more equality between the thirds and fifths.... > > > > rgds > > > > Martyn > > > > --- On Mon, 10/9/12, Monica Hall > <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > > > From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar > > To: "Chris Despopoulos" > <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>> Cc: > "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Date: Monday, 10 September, 2012, 14:32 > > > > Well - I think we are getting a bit bogged down here. > > The point is that the alfabeto chords (and other > chords) are arranged > > in the way that most > > conveniently fits them on to the guitar > fingerboard. The order of the > > notes > > and which ones are doubled is determined by > > practical considerations not by what anyone may have > learnt in their > > harmony > > course. > > Most of them can't be easily be rearranged or refingered > and in the > > context in > > which they are used there is not a lot of point in doing > so. In what > > circumtances would you want to use one form of Chord A > rather than > > another? > > The chords in Sanz' Labyrinth are the same old basic > chords played in > > different positions on the fingerboard. They are > not revoiced or > > re-arranged in any way. What Sanz has in > mind is plaing different > > harmonic progressions at different pitches not altering > the chords > > themselves. > > I don't perceive music in alfabeto as being a way of > "getting you to > > play the guitar" or some sort of stepping stone to doing > something> superior. It is a perfectly valid > tradition in its own right. After > > all people had been playing the 4-course guitar for > years before > > alfabeto came on the scene. Obviously you can do things > like inserting > > 4-3 suspensions and 7th into the chords and adding > ornamentation and of > > course you can write out completely different chords in > tablature.> Improvisation doesn't mean doing something > completely out of character. > > Monica > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Despopoulos" > > <[1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> > > To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "David > van Ooijen" > > <[3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 9:22 AM > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar > > > I have an opinion -- Giving that opinion > may open me up to some > > > "clarification", which is why I'm giving > it. In other words, if > > I'm > > > wrong about this, please let me know! > > > When playing the modern guitar, I'll > choose to add the D on the 2nd > > > course (from high to low) or not, at > will. Considerations include > > > practical (as Monica stated for chord > changes), leading notes, or > > > general emphasis within the musical > context. Everybody learns the > > G > > > chord (modern) in various ways, and then > later sees other people > > > playing it with variations. At some > point, one tries all the > > > variations at least once. > > > My opinion is that the Alfabeto is there > to "get you playing the > > > guitar"... Same as rudimentary chord > books today. See your > > typical > > > Ukulele book, for example. Sanz > expanded on the Alfabeto with his > > > Labarinto, and makes the claim that with > all these chords you can > > now > > > compose whatever variations you want > (roughly paraphrased from > > > memory). But (again, my opinion) > this is still a guideline meant > > to > > > illustrate the wonderful quality of the > guitar, the displacement of > > > chord forms to other positions, yielding > other chords. I believe > > > chords, as a concept, were fairly new at > the time, and this > > Labarinto > > > was quite the innovation. > > > Further, my opinion is that you will reach > a level of playing where > > > your taste dictates your answers to these > types of questions, in > > the > > > given situation. This is the level > you want to reach, and I think > > Sanz > > > would want you to reach it. If you > don't know how or why to play a > > G > > > chord, by all means, use the Alfabeto > religiously. If you have > > moved > > > to the next level, take the Alfabeto as a > guideline, but add your > > own > > > flavor to the music. > > > I forget where I read it, and it was in > the context of interpreting > > > Baroque music on the MODERN guitar, but > somebody said (again, > > > paraphrased from memory), "In that time, > any musician who failed to > > > improvise on a piece was a boring bird > indeed." Something to that > > > effect. (I imagine Richelieu fell > into that category... But that's > > > another topic.) > > > cud > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________> > > > > From: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > > To: David van Ooijen > <[6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>> > Cc: > Vihuelalist <[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 5:23 PM > > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar > > > My ears have no problem with doubling the > 3rd. As I pointed out > > > Chords B, & and N all have the major 3rd > doubled. And the > > consonant > > > form of chord L has the minor 3rd > doubled. That doesn't seem to > > have > > > bothered guitarists in the 17th century > and it shouldn't bother you > > > today either. > > > I doubt whether you have encountered the > dissonant form of Chord L > > in > > > your harmony lessons either. That is > a purely practical device. > > > Monica > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "David > van Ooijen" > > > <[1][8]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> > > > To: "Vihuelalist" > <[2][9]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>> > Sent: > Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:12 PM > > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar > > > > On 9 September 2012 23:08, Monica Hall > > <[3][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > > wrote: > > > >> I don't think that doubling the 3rd is > an issue or that what > > people > > > learn in > > > >> their harmony lessons today is > particularly relevant. I doubt > > > whether > > > >> guitarists at the beginning of the 17th > century thought in those > > > terms. > > > > > > > > Neither do today's guitarists who chose > for 33002(3), but their > > ears > > > > tell them it's the better choice. In > harmony lessons you just > > learn > > > to > > > > give names to what your ears already > told you. In other words, > > don't > > > > turn the argument around. > > > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > -- ******************************* > > > > David van Ooijen > > > > [4][11]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > > > > [5]www.davidvanooijen.nl > > > > ******************************* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list > information at > > > > > [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > -- > > > > > > References > > > > > > 1. mailto:[13]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > > > 2. mailto:[14]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu > > > 3. mailto:[15]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > > > 4. mailto:[16]davidvanooi...@gmail.com > > > 5. [17]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > > > > > > > -- > > > >References > > > > 1. > >http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Espopoulos_chriss@yah oo.com > > 2. > http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> 3. > >http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c om > > 4. > http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > > 6. > >http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c om > > 7. > http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> 8. > >http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c om > > 9. > http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > > 11. > >http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c om > > 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 13. > >http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c om > > 14. > http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> 15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > > 16. > >http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%C3%9Avidvanooijen@gmail.c om > > 17. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ > > > > > --
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