[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
It's safe now to exhale... I think Lex is trying to argue that the "French" tuning originated with Carre and Corbetta just copied it because he thought this would make his music more acceptable to French players although it wasn't the tuning he used himself. Almost. I try to argue that there is room for doubt. And that the above is one option. I started 2 different threads, attempting to answer every detail, which is not good for an orderly discussion. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
. I'm still holding mine for the revelation of the principal issue.. MH From: Roman Turovsky To: Martyn Hodgson ; Monica Hall Cc: Vihuelalist Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 17:02 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc. I knew I shouldn't have held my breath RT From: "Monica Hall" <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > One other small point - I said To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
I knew I shouldn't have held my breath RT From: "Monica Hall" One other small point - I said To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
I think Lex is trying to argue that the "French" tuning originated with Carre and Corbetta just copied it because he thought this would make his music more acceptable to French players although it wasn't the tuning he used himself. One other small point - I said "Ms.Rés. 2344 which is dated 1647 includes music in mixed style including a version of the repicco variation - which occurs in Bartolotti's 2nd book. I have said "a version" - not that it was copied from Bartolotti. It may have been a common element which several people incorporated into their variations. It occurs several times in the Gallot ms. and in Elizabeth Cromwell's book. Vale Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson To: Monica Hall ; Lex Eisenhardt Cc: Vihuelalist Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc. Hello you two, I've been away a couple of days: can you kindly remind me of the principal issue in this latest exchange? It surely can't be that you aim to base an entire case on Carre's book rgds Martyn From: Monica Hall To: Lex Eisenhardt Cc: Vihuelalist Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 13:59 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - February 1671 indeed. We know that the printing of Corbetta's book was completed 31 October 1671. We don't know what he has changed or added between September 1670 and October 1671. I think it unlikely that Corbetta would have changed anything after being granted the licences because publications were subject to censorship. This was certainly the case in Spain I am not sure of the details in France. Like for example the preface. Carré's book could have been printed long before that date. If Corbetta knew the content of Carré's book he could easily have echoed the advice on the stringing of the fourth course. Whether he has echoed it or not is really immaterial. It doesn't prove that Corbetta disagreed with Carre. Carré's continuo examples are almost exclusively in pizzicato. Well - he hasn't indicated whether any of the chords should be strummed - probably for practical reasons to do with the printing.. But quite a few of them could be strummed. A lot of the chords are in the wrong inversions e.g.the first four chords on G re sol have the G on the 3rd course and the notes on the fourth course will sound below them. The first four chords on B fa si have the B flat on the fifth course where it will sound above the notes on the third and fourth fifth courses and so on. I can't list them all. Yes - he does seem to be confused as to which method of stringing he is using - or perhaps he is just using his common sense and placing them where it is practical to play them. Very different from the usual Italian battuto-pizzicato approach, and Carré has certainly not copied this from Corbetta's 1671 book. Yes - I agree he didn't copy these from Corbetta. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
I think Roman is right. I have spent enough time on this already and we have been over it all so many times in the past. There is really nothing more I wish to say. Monica - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" To: "Martyn Hodgson" ; "Monica Hall" ; "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc. Only the European Court at he Hague knows the principal issue here, and it issued a gag order apropos. RT - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Monica Hall" ; "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 10:38 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc. Hello you two, I've been away a couple of days: can you kindly remind me of the principal issue in this latest exchange? It surely can't be that you aim to base an entire case on Carre's book rgds Martyn From: Monica Hall To: Lex Eisenhardt Cc: Vihuelalist Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 13:59 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - > February 1671 indeed. We know that the printing of Corbetta's book was completed 31 October 1671. We don't know what he has changed or added between September 1670 and October 1671. I think it unlikely that Corbetta would have changed anything after being granted the licences because publications were subject to censorship. This was certainly the case in Spain I am not sure of the details in France. Like for example the preface. > Carre's book could have been printed long before that date. If Corbetta knew the content of Carre's book he could easily have echoed the advice on the stringing of the fourth course. Whether he has echoed it or not is really immaterial. It doesn't prove that Corbetta disagreed with Carre. > Carre's continuo examples are almost exclusively in pizzicato. Well - he hasn't indicated whether any of the chords should be strummed - probably for practical reasons to do with the printing.. But quite a few of them could be strummed. A lot of the chords are in the wrong inversions e.g.the first four chords on G re sol have the G on the 3rd course and the notes on the fourth course will sound below them. The first four chords on B fa si have the B flat on the fifth course where it will sound above the notes on the third and fourth fifth courses and so on. I can't list them all. Yes - he does seem to be confused as to which method of stringing he is using - or perhaps he is just using his common sense and placing them where it is practical to play them. Very > different from the usual Italian battuto-pizzicato approach, and Carre has certainly not copied this from Corbetta's 1671 book. Yes - I agree he didn't copy these from Corbetta. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
Only the European Court at he Hague knows the principal issue here, and it issued a gag order apropos. RT - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" To: "Monica Hall" ; "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 10:38 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc. Hello you two, I've been away a couple of days: can you kindly remind me of the principal issue in this latest exchange? It surely can't be that you aim to base an entire case on Carre's book rgds Martyn From: Monica Hall To: Lex Eisenhardt Cc: Vihuelalist Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 13:59 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - > February 1671 indeed. We know that the printing of Corbetta's book was completed 31 October 1671. We don't know what he has changed or added between September 1670 and October 1671. I think it unlikely that Corbetta would have changed anything after being granted the licences because publications were subject to censorship. This was certainly the case in Spain I am not sure of the details in France. Like for example the preface. > Carre's book could have been printed long before that date. If Corbetta knew the content of Carre's book he could easily have echoed the advice on the stringing of the fourth course. Whether he has echoed it or not is really immaterial. It doesn't prove that Corbetta disagreed with Carre. > Carre's continuo examples are almost exclusively in pizzicato. Well - he hasn't indicated whether any of the chords should be strummed - probably for practical reasons to do with the printing.. But quite a few of them could be strummed. A lot of the chords are in the wrong inversions e.g.the first four chords on G re sol have the G on the 3rd course and the notes on the fourth course will sound below them. The first four chords on B fa si have the B flat on the fifth course where it will sound above the notes on the third and fourth fifth courses and so on. I can't list them all. Yes - he does seem to be confused as to which method of stringing he is using - or perhaps he is just using his common sense and placing them where it is practical to play them. Very > different from the usual Italian battuto-pizzicato approach, and Carre has certainly not copied this from Corbetta's 1671 book. Yes - I agree he didn't copy these from Corbetta. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
Hello you two, I've been away a couple of days: can you kindly remind me of the principal issue in this latest exchange? It surely can't be that you aim to base an entire case on Carre's book rgds Martyn From: Monica Hall To: Lex Eisenhardt Cc: Vihuelalist Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 13:59 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - > February 1671 indeed. We know that the printing of Corbetta's book was completed 31 October 1671. We don't know what he has changed or added between September 1670 and October 1671. I think it unlikely that Corbetta would have changed anything after being granted the licences because publications were subject to censorship. This was certainly the case in Spain I am not sure of the details in France. Like for example the preface. > Carre's book could have been printed long before that date. If Corbetta knew the content of Carre's book he could easily have echoed the advice on the stringing of the fourth course. Whether he has echoed it or not is really immaterial. It doesn't prove that Corbetta disagreed with Carre. > Carre's continuo examples are almost exclusively in pizzicato. Well - he hasn't indicated whether any of the chords should be strummed - probably for practical reasons to do with the printing.. But quite a few of them could be strummed. A lot of the chords are in the wrong inversions e.g.the first four chords on G re sol have the G on the 3rd course and the notes on the fourth course will sound below them. The first four chords on B fa si have the B flat on the fifth course where it will sound above the notes on the third and fourth fifth courses and so on. I can't list them all. Yes - he does seem to be confused as to which method of stringing he is using - or perhaps he is just using his common sense and placing them where it is practical to play them. Very > different from the usual Italian battuto-pizzicato approach, and Carre has certainly not copied this from Corbetta's 1671 book. Yes - I agree he didn't copy these from Corbetta. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' -
February 1671 indeed. We know that the printing of Corbetta's book was completed 31 October 1671. We don't know what he has changed or added between September 1670 and October 1671. I think it unlikely that Corbetta would have changed anything after being granted the licences because publications were subject to censorship. This was certainly the case in Spain I am not sure of the details in France. Like for example the preface. Carré's book could have been printed long before that date. If Corbetta knew the content of Carré's book he could easily have echoed the advice on the stringing of the fourth course. Whether he has echoed it or not is really immaterial. It doesn't prove that Corbetta disagreed with Carre. Carré's continuo examples are almost exclusively in pizzicato. Well - he hasn't indicated whether any of the chords should be strummed - probably for practical reasons to do with the printing.. But quite a few of them could be strummed. A lot of the chords are in the wrong inversions e.g.the first four chords on G re sol have the G on the 3rd course and the notes on the fourth course will sound below them. The first four chords on B fa si have the B flat on the fifth course where it will sound above the notes on the third and fourth fifth courses and so on. I can't list them all. Yes - he does seem to be confused as to which method of stringing he is using - or perhaps he is just using his common sense and placing them where it is practical to play them. Very different from the usual Italian battuto-pizzicato approach, and Carré has certainly not copied this from Corbetta's 1671 book. Yes - I agree he didn't copy these from Corbetta. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' -
As I have explained several times the licences of Corbetta's La guitarre royale are dated September 1670 which means that he had assembled the book and was seeking permission to publish it.Carre was not granted a licence until 1671. February 1671 indeed. We know that the printing of Corbetta's book was completed 31 October 1671. We don't know what he has changed or added between September 1670 and October 1671. Like for example the preface. Carré's book could have been printed long before that date. If Corbetta knew the content of Carré's book he could easily have echoed the advice on the stringing of the fourth course. But If they used different stringing, sure one would be with bourdons (Sanz). Not necessarily e.g. Carre. How do you know he didn't get the idea from Corbetta? Carré's continuo examples are almost exclusively in pizzicato. Very different from the usual Italian battuto-pizzicato approach, and Carré has certainly not copied this from Corbetta's 1671 book. The figures in the tablature demonstrate that he was well aware of the structure of the chords. Very often the root of the chord is the lowest note (when played on a guitar in 'French' tuning), but not always. Only in the cadences on p.13 and 14 he makes use of strummed standard chords. It seems he has tried to find practical solutions to deal with the limitations of 'French' tuning. Occasionally it even looks like he is thinking of re-entrant tuning, which may be the arrangement he had started with. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' -
plagiarism? That is the most obvious explanation although there could be others. I think very little of Carre's work is original. I don't think there is much doubt that Corbetta's book is earlier than Carre's. I don't see why we should believe that. As I have explained several times the licences of Corbetta's La guitarre royale are dated September 1670 which means that he had assembled the book and was seeking permission to publish it.Carre was not granted a licence until 1671. I really don't see the link between the two, the repicci and the 'harmony', required for his sonatas. There seems to me to be an obvious link. The repicco variations are sequences of chords which are played including some or all of the strings. Immediately following his remark on stringing he has gone on to refer to the continuo exercises at the end of the book. Strange that if he thought that a bourdon on the fifth course was necessary to make sense of these he opted for a "rapprochement" or "compromise-concession" to French guitarists" Is it 'which my sonatas also require' or 'as also my sonatas require'? The wording makes no difference. However it is possible that he is saying "my sonatas require the same thing as other peoples". In the context I think that is a less likely explanation. Maybe we need the help of an Italian native speaker. (I do) You are always saying that but unfortunately there is always an element of ambiguity in language. You are trying to read into these things more than they can actually tell us. A native speaker is no more likely to be able to offer a definitive answer and unless they are familiar with the subject they can't be regarded as any more authoritative than the rest of us. I am a native English speaker but I would be at a loss trying to explain technicalities in e.g. an English source of keyboard music about which I know very little. Unfortunately a lot of translations are made by people who have no knowledge of the subject they are translating. Do composers usually compromise? Some certainly do. Corbetta probably had a colourful life. Gambling, intrigues etc. He was cunning enough to survive. I don't think that is relevant. Gesualdo murdered his wife, Gombert was sent to the galleys for molesting a choirboy. That tells us nothing about the way their music should be performed. I do not know of anyone apart from Lex who has claimed that the tablature charts found in some Italian books are only applicable to one method of stringing. Since the publication of Gill's 1975 article and Tyler's book from 1980 the usual solution has been to drop the bourdons (or actually just one) It was actually Richard Pinnell who first came up with the idea. Perhaps I should quote Gary Boye to you... "Whilst these soures are reasonably clear in their explanations, the large majority of battuto tablatures make no distinction between unisons and octaves in their tuning instructions, perhaps to allow performers to decide on either stringing method." As far as I know there are no unambiguous references to dropping bourdons from the 17th century (also not Sanz?), for such reasons. The reasons for dropping them seem to have been primarily practical. but we have been over that so many times... Nearly all of the music in Corbetta's first book is in alfabeto. The tradition which fits into is that of music which is entirely strummed. But there are also the pieces with treble and bass. There are a small number of rather experimental pieces which are rather different from those in his later book. To me the 'accordatura' and 'prova' charts from this book are quite clear. If you would like to interpret them in 'a more general sense', go ahead. Once again - you want to read into these things more than they can tell us. But If they used different stringing, sure one would be with bourdons (Sanz). Not necessarily e.g. Carre. How do you know he didn't get the idea from Corbetta? Do we know many references from guitar books, to using a second guitar for accompaniment? We have been over this before. Not necessarily a second guitar - a second instrument capable of reinforcing the bass line. It is fairly obvious that the consort pieces in Grenerin are meant to be performed by a group of instruments. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' -
Carre first book is not dedicated to Elizabeth Charlotte. I suggested this in my introduction after consulting someone in France and considering the options. However subsequently I realized that the "Princesse Palatine" must actually be Anna Gonzaga, the sister of the Duke of Mantua who was one of Corbetta's patrons. So Carre's book must have been printed some time after February 1671 when the licences were granted. That seems more likely indeed. Interesting. This suggests that after 6th November Corbetta had some idea of what Carre was planning to do and that in some way it clashed with his own interest plagiarism? I don't think there is much doubt that Corbetta's book is earlier than Carre's. I don't see why we should believe that. Most of the rest of what Lex has said on this aspect of things is really just wishful thinking. I don't think he is referring to what anyone else did. In the previous paragraph he has been explaining how to play the repicco variations. What he is saying is that as well as his sonatas requiring the strumming patterns that he has described it is also necessary to play the music with a bourdon on the fourth course. It is also necessary to have your latte macchiato in time. I really don't see the link between the two, the repicci and the 'harmony', required for his sonatas. Is it 'which my sonatas also require' or 'as also my sonatas require'? Maybe we need the help of an Italian native speaker. (I do) If he thought the two strings on the 5th course in unison didn't make the harmony his sonatas call for it is surprising he hasn't said so. Why should he compromise? Do composers usually compromise? Some certainly do. Corbetta probably had a colourful life. Gambling, intrigues etc. He was cunning enough to survive. I do not know of anyone apart from Lex who has claimed that the tablature charts found in some Italian books are only applicable to one method of stringing. That is indeed amazing. Because everyone comes up with campanelas, ornaments, and the idea that these charts could mean anything. Since the publication of Gill's 1975 article and Tyler's book from 1980 the usual solution has been to drop the bourdons (or actually just one) because they would sound bad in contrapuntal textures. And to facilitate campanelas. As far as I know there are no unambiguous references to dropping bourdons from the 17th century (also not Sanz?), for such reasons. In his article Lex has said "Corbetta's first book - which has not a single campanela or cascading scalar passage fits perfectly into that tradition". Nearly all of the music in Corbetta's first book is in alfabeto. The tradition which fits into is that of music which is entirely strummed. But there are also the pieces with treble and bass. In the tradition of lute music. Without campanelas. To me the 'accordatura' and 'prova' charts from this book are quite clear. If you would like to interpret them in 'a more general sense', go ahead. There is no reason why players should not have used different stringing for accompanying or had another instrument on the bass part. 'There is no reason why' is not a particular strong argument. There could be thousands of reasons you and I don't know of. But If they used different stringing, sure one would be with bourdons (Sanz). Also in the 1670s. Do we know many references from guitar books, to using a second guitar for accompaniment? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' -
First of all Carre first book is not dedicated to Elizabeth Charlotte. I suggested this in my introduction after consulting someone in France and considering the options. However subsequently I realized that the "Princesse Palatine" must actually be Anna Gonzaga, the sister of the Duke of Mantua who was one of Corbetta's patrons. If you know any Italian history you will know that the Duchy of Mantua went to the French branch of the Gonzaga family after the senior Italian branch became extict. Anna Gonzaga was the wife of Edward - one of the Palatinate princes, a son of Elizabeth of Bohemia and a grandson of the English King James I. She was therefore an aunt of Charlotte Elizabeth (but not the one James Tyler refers to). She was French, resided in Paris but was known as the "Princesse Palatine" after her husband. She never lived in Heidelberg. Her marriage was a bit of a disaster. She was instrumental in arranging for Charlotte Elizabeth to marry Monsieur whose marriage was also a bit of a disaster.. I did in fact send a message to this list pointing this out as I think that it is important to correct inaccurate information whenever possible. Michael has said that it may be possible to revise the introduction at some stage. So Carre's book must have been printed some time after February 1671 when the licences were granted. There are quite a few clues which suggest that Carre and Corbetta moved in the same circles. Corbetta's privilege for "La guitarre royale" is dated 21st September 1670 which means that in essentials the book must have been ready for printing. He probably had to submit a copy of the contents for approval. For some reason Corbetta presented his privilege to the court on 20th December 1670 because it seems that Carre had previously obtained some kind of judgement in his favour on 6th November 1670. This suggests that after 6th November Corbetta had some idea of what Carre was planning to do and that in some way it clashed with his own interest Carré's privilege is dated 18th February 1671. I don't think there is much doubt that Corbetta's book is earlier than Carre's. It is not clear why it was not printed until October 1671 but apparently such delays were not uncommon.. Most of the rest of what Lex has said on this aspect of things is really just wishful thinking. About the Italian preface - I have indeed omitted the word "also". Mea culpa. I would now translate it as "Take care to put a thin octave string [i.e.bourdon] on the second [i.e.fourth course] which is D sol re, because the two in unison do not make the harmony which my sonatas also require." I don't think he is referring to what anyone else did. In the previous paragraph he has been explaining how to play the repicco variations. What he is saying is that as well as his sonatas requiring the strumming patterns that he has described it is also necessary to play the music with a bourdon on the fourth course. If he thought the two strings on the 5th course in unison didn't make the harmony his sonatas call for it is surprising he hasn't said so. Why should he compromise? Do composers usually compromise? This idea that Corbetta used bourdons on the 4th and 5th course in his earlier works and that the "so called" French tuning was "new" in 1670 originates with Richard Pinnell. Referring to the tuning instructions in Corbetta's 1639 book he said "Through the use of lute tablature Corbetta gives two methods of tuning, by unisons and by octaves but since neither the pitch nor the octave dispostion is specified it must be assumed that he used the same tuning as Amat and Montesardo". Pinnell had not seen Valdambrini's book and therefore did not know that there was a clear reference to the re-entrant tuning in an Italian source. He might have assumed something different if he had. I do not know of anyone apart from Lex who has claimed that the tablature charts found in some Italian books are only applicable to one method of stringing. In his article Lex has said "Corbetta's first book - which has not a single campanela or cascading scalar passage fits perfectly into that tradition". Nearly all of the music in Corbetta's first book is in alfabeto. The tradition which fits into is that of music which is entirely strummed. It is a bit pointless going over the rest of it. The continuo exercises and the accompaniments to the vocal pieces don't alway reproduce the bass line and the harmony in the correct inversions. There is no reason why players should not have used different stringing for accompanying or had another instrument on the bass part. The bass parts in Corbetta's vocal pieces are doubled by the voice part etc. etc. We have been over this so many times. As ever Monica - Original Message - From: "Lex Eisenhardt" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 9:14 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 'Anche' Re reading what I wrote this morning, in
