[VIHUELA] Re: Lute 2008 - Carre etc.
There was a market for publishing guitar music in mixed style in Italy, from 1630 on. Not in France. How do you know? It may be that due to the economic situation in France - especially during the Fronde - that it wasn't practical to print music but that doesn't prove that players were not interested in music in mixed style. There is a lot of lute music, and airs de cour etc. Printed and in manuscript. But almost no guitar music in mixed style in manuscript from between 1630 - 1670. So then should we assume that people in France would have mainly played the music of foreign composers, from printed books? No French compositions? This would have been very different from what we know of the world of the lute. Sorry, you mix up things here. What I write about Corbetta's position is hypothetical. You seem to think that I myself regard re-entrant stringing as inferior. That is the impression that you give all the time.What you have said is "Corbetta's music transcends the scope of the re-entrant tuning" That is entirely your own perception of the music. You cannot possibly know whether Corbetta thought his music transcended re-entrant stringing as inferior as he has said nothing at all on the subject. The fact that the music transcends the scope of re-entrant tuning doesn't say that that tuning is inferior. We just should accept that it is not capable of rendering everything in music. Not Bach's Chaconne, for example... That is one manuscript. You simply don't know that. What has survived to the present day is only the tip of the iceberg. We are lucky that the Gallot ms. has survived. There must have been other people like Gallot who copied or had copied similar manuscripts which haven't survived. We all have our happy dreams. Ms.Rés. 2344 1647 which is dated 1647 includes music in mixed style including a version of the repicco variation - which occurs in Bartolotti's 2nd book. So then Bartolotti has probably pirated it, into his Secondo Libro from c.1655? Rather late? Gallot's servant Monnier started to copy it in 1660 and the repertoire he copied dates from the previous 20 years. Started it in 1660. Were many Italian works in mixed style inscribed in the manuscript before c.1670? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Lute 2008 - Carre etc.
Who from France studied guitar in Italy? In the introduction to his 1640 book Carbonchi says "Requests made by various scholars, particularly German, French and English gentlemen, made me decide to publish the present French tablature hoping in this way to be more helpful to French players and those of other nations". Although Carbonchi doesn't actually say that they came to Florence personally to study with him it is a reasonable assumption that some of them did and at least enough people approached him on the subject for him to think that it was a viable proposition to publish a book in French tablature which wouldn't have been much use to Italian dilettantes. You need a broad knowledge of social and economic history in order to evaluate the evidence. We know for example that Sanz studied with Lelio Colista in Rome. Do we assume that he was unique? That no one else who happened to be in Rome ever studied with Colista? Or that only Spaniards who happened to be in Rome studied with Colista? Our knowledge of how people behave suggests that any one who had the chance would have availed themselves of it. There was a market for publishing guitar music in mixed style in Italy, from 1630 on. Not in France. How do you know? It may be that due to the economic situation in France - especially during the Fronde - that it wasn't practical to print music but that doesn't prove that players were not interested in music in mixed style. The whole sentence in my article was 'Apart from some occasional stage performances in ballet or opera there may not have been much work playing the guitar.' Not enough for someone like Corbetta, probably. Sorry, you mix up things here. What I write about Corbetta's position is hypothetical. You seem to think that I myself regard re-entrant stringing as inferior. That is the impression that you give all the time.What you have said is "Corbetta's music transcends the scope of the re-entrant tuning" That is entirely your own perception of the music. You cannot possibly know whether Corbetta thought his music transcended re-entrant stringing as inferior as he has said nothing at all on the subject. I think it is appropriate to point out that when you play the music you don't play what is clearly notated in the tablature but instead you eliminate all the dissonance including the 6/4 chords. Corbetta has given no indication at all that that is what he intended either. We know of a few guitarists, Carré, Gallot, that they were familiar with Italian solo music before or around 1671. I never said that no one was. But compared to Italy, in France there was very little activity with respect to solo music. You simply don't know that. Dismissed? Yes - in Note 65. That is one manuscript. You simply don't know that. What has survived to the present day is only the tip of the iceberg. We are lucky that the Gallot ms. has survived. There must have been other people like Gallot who copied or had copied similar manuscripts which haven't survived. Ms.Rés. 2344 1647 which is dated 1647 includes music in mixed style including a version of the repicco variation - which occurs in Bartolotti's 2nd book. And also rather late. Rather late? Gallot's servant Monnier started to copy it in 1660 and the repertoire he copied dates from the previous 20 years. But players didn't need to copy the pieces into manuscripts - because they could have purchased the printed books. They could indeed. Should we therefore suppose they did? Yes! Because that is what ordinary poeple do. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Lute 2008 - Carre etc.
As I have pointed out music printed in Italy would have been readily available elsewhere and some Italian books specifically include helpful information for French and other players. People from England and France regularly travelled abroad and studied with Italian lutenists/guitarists. Who from France studied guitar in Italy? Bullen Reymes is a well known example. Incidentally Granata apparently asked friends in Paris to send him copies of French lute music and Foscarini has included arrangements of French lute music in his books so it was a two way process. That's French lute music in Italy. 2.From 1640s on Italian virtuosi visited Paris - Foscarini, Bartolotti, Corbetta ...they would have performed an advanced battuto-pizzicato repertoire on guitars in Italian tuning and notated in Italian notation which would have been incomprehensible to some. This repertoire would have been out of reach for most French dilettanti... What patronising thing to say. There were just as many Italian dilettanti buying little books by Millioni and playing simple music transmitted aurally. There was a market for publishing guitar music in mixed style in Italy, from 1630 on. Not in France. It is anyone's guess how much work there was. Apparently Lully employed as many as eight guitars in some of his operas so there must have been at least some work for them. The whole sentence in my article was 'Apart from some occasional stage performances in ballet or opera there may not have been much work playing the guitar.' Not enough for someone like Corbetta, probably. Lex then goes on to say "Corbetta's music transcends the scope of the re-entrant tuningperhaps his advice to add a bourdon to the 4th course to conform to the then-emerging French tuning was a sort of "rapprochement" or "compromise-concession" to French guitarists" I think my comment "Eisenhardt's suggestion that musicians in France (and presumably in England too) were so unfamiliar with Italian guitar music, including that of Corbetta, that they opted for what he seems to regard as an inferior method of stringing is not very convincing" sums up what he has said fairly accurately. Sorry, you mix up things here. What I write about Corbetta's position is hypothetical. You seem to think that I myself regard re-entrant stringing as inferior. Which brings us to Carre. It is certain that Carre and Corbetta knew one another and it is quite clear that Carre was familiar with Corbetta's music and that of Bartolotti. At least as far as Carre is concerned Italian music seems to have fallen on fertile ground. We know of a few guitarists, Carré, Gallot, that they were familiar with Italian solo music before or around 1671. I never said that no one was. But compared to Italy, in France there was very little activity with respect to solo music. The Gallot manuscript - which Lex has dismissed in a note - includes most of the music from Corbetta's 1643 and 1648 books, about 20 pieces which are definitely by Bartolotti and passages copied from Foscarini and Carbonchi. Dismissed? That is one manuscript. And also rather late. But players didn't need to copy the pieces into manuscripts - because they could have purchased the printed books. They could indeed. Should we therefore suppose they did? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Lute 2008 - Carre etc.
uot;The end of the passage from Sanz 1674 is interesting, but certainly not crucial for our understanding of his ideas". The point I was making is that Lex has referred to this passage in Note 61(not Note 62 - a misprint in my article) but has not included it in the English translation of the passage on p.31 of the article. He seems to think that what Sanz says refers to the re-entrant tuning whereas the opposite is actually the case. A few points about Castillion. 1.He says that he has recently taken up the guitar after not haveing played for about 20 years. 2.He says that he has copied the music into the manuscript for his own use. 3.He says that he hopes that the manuscript will be of some use to other after his death. He died in 1757. I hope that after my death other people find some of the things I have written useful but I am writing about what I do now... I think I will have to reply to Lex's comments on the Italian tuning separately. Monica - Original Message - From: "Lex Eisenhardt" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 10:06 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Lute 2008 - Carre etc. 1.The reference to the law suit between Carre and Corbetta and the printer Bonneuil which isn't widely known and does indicate that Corbetta and Carre were aware of one another's work and probably knew one another. 2.Details of sources from which Castillion has copied information. Interesting information indeed. But what is it supposed to prove about their method of stringing? In you new article you say: 'Eisenhardt's suggestion that musicians in France (and presumably in England too) were so unfamiliar with Italian guitar music, including that of Corbetta, that they opted for what he seems to regard as an inferior method of stringing is not very convincing. Carré and De Visée almost certainly knew Corbetta personally, would have heard him play and were obviously familiar with his music.' If you would have sent me your text before publication I would have (tried to) made it clear to you that you read things in my words that are not there. Saying that I seem to regard any method of stringing as inferior is 'a tad disingenuous'. Nowhere have I denied that Corbetta has been of great influence on the guitar scene in France. But we should keep an eye on chronology. For example, in 1671 Robert de Visée was probably still a young boy. Or that there is very little French solo music from before 1670 and almost no Italian guitar music in French manuscripts from before that time. The great craze came later. Since we (or at least I) were discussing the early days of the 'French' tuning in France, the 1680s are not relevant. 3.Details of Italian books which circulated in France and Italian sources which French players must have been familiar with. Who in France was familiar with what Italian book exactly? Any hard evidence, in particular for the years 1640 - 1670? 4.An English translation of what Corbetta says in the Italian preface and Donald Gill's interpretation of it not included in Lex's article. With due respect for Donald Gill, this doesn't change anything with regard to my argument. (And your translation is not complete, as the 'anche' (also) from Corbetta's Italian text is no longer there. Why?) 5.Details of the one English source of information about stringing which clearly indicates the French tuning in staff notation and includes a possible reference to Corbetta who spent much of the last 20 years of his life in England which Lex hasn't mentioned. I had no intention to be complete. In my article (Lute 47, p.27) I say: 'In France, England and the Netherlands there certainly were players who preferred the 'French' tuning, but at the same time other musicians in those countries probably adhered to the re-entrant tuning or to the tuning with two bourdons.' 6.Some observations about Sanz - including an English translation of a crucial passage which got left out of Lex's article. The end of the passage from Sanz 1674 is interesting, but certainly not crucial for our understanding of his ideas on stringing. I wrote (p.20): 'Sanz's continuo exercises are exclusively in punteado and only if we follow his advice to use bourdons for accompaniment will the bass always be in the correct position.' Since you are saying in your article (Lute 48) that my comments on Castillion are misleading: The translation (yours?) of Castillions instructions on the website of the Lute Society reads: 'it is essential to put an octave [une octave] on the fourth course; it is absolutely necessary. One even finds amateurs, whom I imitate, who similarly put an octave on the fifth course; they call it a bourdon. In your new article I read that Castillion says that 'he and othe
[VIHUELA] Re: Lute 2008 - Carre etc.
1.The reference to the law suit between Carre and Corbetta and the printer Bonneuil which isn't widely known and does indicate that Corbetta and Carre were aware of one another's work and probably knew one another. 2.Details of sources from which Castillion has copied information. Interesting information indeed. But what is it supposed to prove about their method of stringing? In you new article you say: 'Eisenhardt's suggestion that musicians in France (and presumably in England too) were so unfamiliar with Italian guitar music, including that of Corbetta, that they opted for what he seems to regard as an inferior method of stringing is not very convincing. Carré and De Visée almost certainly knew Corbetta personally, would have heard him play and were obviously familiar with his music.' If you would have sent me your text before publication I would have (tried to) made it clear to you that you read things in my words that are not there. Saying that I seem to regard any method of stringing as inferior is 'a tad disingenuous'. Nowhere have I denied that Corbetta has been of great influence on the guitar scene in France. But we should keep an eye on chronology. For example, in 1671 Robert de Visée was probably still a young boy. Or that there is very little French solo music from before 1670 and almost no Italian guitar music in French manuscripts from before that time. The great craze came later. Since we (or at least I) were discussing the early days of the 'French' tuning in France, the 1680s are not relevant. 3.Details of Italian books which circulated in France and Italian sources which French players must have been familiar with. Who in France was familiar with what Italian book exactly? Any hard evidence, in particular for the years 1640 - 1670? 4.An English translation of what Corbetta says in the Italian preface and Donald Gill's interpretation of it not included in Lex's article. With due respect for Donald Gill, this doesn't change anything with regard to my argument. (And your translation is not complete, as the 'anche' (also) from Corbetta's Italian text is no longer there. Why?) 5.Details of the one English source of information about stringing which clearly indicates the French tuning in staff notation and includes a possible reference to Corbetta who spent much of the last 20 years of his life in England which Lex hasn't mentioned. I had no intention to be complete. In my article (Lute 47, p.27) I say: 'In France, England and the Netherlands there certainly were players who preferred the 'French' tuning, but at the same time other musicians in those countries probably adhered to the re-entrant tuning or to the tuning with two bourdons.' 6.Some observations about Sanz - including an English translation of a crucial passage which got left out of Lex's article. The end of the passage from Sanz 1674 is interesting, but certainly not crucial for our understanding of his ideas on stringing. I wrote (p.20): 'Sanz's continuo exercises are exclusively in punteado and only if we follow his advice to use bourdons for accompaniment will the bass always be in the correct position.' Since you are saying in your article (Lute 48) that my comments on Castillion are misleading: The translation (yours?) of Castillions instructions on the website of the Lute Society reads: 'it is essential to put an octave [une octave] on the fourth course; it is absolutely necessary. One even finds amateurs, whom I imitate, who similarly put an octave on the fifth course; they call it a bourdon. In your new article I read that Castillion says that 'he and other players _now (in 1730)_ often use a bourdon on the fifth course as well.' This would of course better support your idea that Castillion saw the use of bourdons as something new. Finally, we don't know if he made this manuscript for his own use only. He ends his preface: '. . . may heaven allow this book to fall into the hands of some amateur, able to play from my efforts, after my death.' Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Lute 2008 - Carre etc.
Well - I hope that when you write your letter you make it clear that Carre has included a piece by Corbetta in his first book which includes his observations on stringing. This is from Corbetta's 1648 book and Carre evidently thought it OK to play it with a fully re-entrant tuning. You have said "This new article does not offer any new insight." But actually it includes quite a lot of information which other people might not be aware of e.g. 1.The reference to the law suit between Carre and Corbetta and the printer Bonneuil which isn't widely known and does indicate that Corbetta and Carre were aware of one another's work and probably knew one another. 2.Details of sources from which Castillion has copied information. 3.Details of Italian books which circulated in France and Italian sources which French players must have been familiar with. 4.An English translation of what Corbetta says in the Italian preface and Donald Gill's interpretation of it not included in Lex's article. 5.Details of the one English source of information about stringing which clearly indicates the French tuning in staff notation and includes a possible reference to Corbetta who spent much of the last 20 years of his life in England which Lex hasn't mentioned. 6.Some observations about Sanz - including an English translation of a crucial passage which got left out of Lex's article. I don't think I have said anything which any reasonable person could take exception to. The only thing that I regret is that - due to circumstances outside of my control - Lex didn't have the opportunity to read it before the journal was published. As ever Monica
[VIHUELA] Re: Lute 2008 - Carre etc.
Dear list, I will prepare a Letter to the Editor of The Lute. Meanwhile it will be clear to you all that Monica and I reach widely different conclusions, based on more or less the same historic information. In my article I have indeed surveyed the literature. I don't see what would be wrong with that. And I formed my own different opinion, which obviously is not liked by everyone. Two short remarks on the points below: - I think the relation of Carré and Corbetta is a rather complex issue, of which not all is known. It leads to all kinds of questions. - Castillion is not extremely interesting for the present discussion, because he was of a later generation. I almost regret that I mentioned him at all, last week. Lex - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Vihuelalist" Cc: "Lex Eisenhardt" Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 9:27 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Lute 2008 - Carre etc. Dear List I am afraid that this dispute is not going to go away quietly. There are a few points which I now feel I should make following on from Lex's comments on my short article in Lute 2008. Lex said "As a matter of fact we don't know what tuning Carre had in mind for his second book (with Corbetta's music). The reference to French tuning is in his first, and he could well have changed his mind after that." Lex is evidently unaware that Carre's first book (1671) also includes music by Corbetta. The sarabande on p.23 is from Corbetta's 1648 book - on p.37 with minor variations. The Chacone in C major (p.2-6,) also incorporates passages (b.37-41 and b.45-53) from a Chaconne attributed to Corbetta which survives in two manuscripts copied by Jean-Baptiste de Castillion. Furthermore the third variation of Carré's Chaconne in G major (p.25) incorporates a variation which resembles the opening bars of a Ciacona in Bartolotti's Secondo libro di chitarra (ca.1656, p.17). To suggest that Carre may well have changed his mind between 1671 and 1677 seems to me just a tad disingenious. Lex also says "And who can tell if Castillion was a composer or not?" If he was he kept pretty quiet about. He copied three large manuscripts - in about 1706, 1730 and between 1730-40 and hasn't claimed that any of the pieces are by himself. Whether or not he was a composer is however a bit beside the point. What Lex has said in his article is "In 1730 Castillion quotes de Visee's advice on tuning in his own words...but says that he himself now uses a bourdon on the 5th course as well. Perhaps Corbetta had taken a similarly inconsistent position half a century before." It is not inconsistent to quote what someone else has said and then to say that you disagree with it or do something different. In the introduction to his 1730 manuscript Castillion has copied information from various sources and added his comments on it. Corbetta is not quoting what anyone else has said or commenting on it. In the prefaces to "La guitarre royale" (1671) he is writing about his own music and explaining how it should be played. His motive for "formulating his widely discussed advice on tuning" is surely fairly obvious. What possible motive could he have other than to explain how the music should be played?Perhaps Lex can suggest one. Lex claims that he has "given a number of reasons why the usual interpretation of what Corbetta says in his prefaces to his 1671 book is open to debate." In fact he has quoted only the French preface which is not very clearly worded. He has ignored the Italian preface which is more explicit and Donald Gill's interpretation of it. Which brings me to my final point for the time being. I don't know how many people have read Lex's "Bourdons as usual" but it is not a straightforward article setting out his own ideas on the stringing of the guitar. It is a survey of what everyone else (inlcuding myself) has said on the subject with his comments on it. In my view it is highly selective and rather partisan which is why I asked if I could comment briefly on some of the things he has said in it.. Only other people can judge whether my article offers any new insight. Regards to any of you who have got to the end of this message. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
