[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! 2

2018-01-30 Thread mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 
Martyn

I am not going to comment in detail on your pathetic attempt to 
discredit everything that I say.  If you think that your rant at the 
beginning of your message of 14th January, sent to both the vihuela and 
baroque lute lists, constitutes general politeness you have very 
strange ideas as to what is good manners.

I am now trying to reply to what you have said in your previous message 
but I am not sure that it is worth the effort.

Monica


Original Message
From: hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: 30/01/2018 10:35 
To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "vihuela@cs.
dartmouth.edu"<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subj: [VIHUELA]  Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189)  - a fresh tack! 2

Dear Monica,
   I don't usually 'knee-jerk' these things but was truly astonished at
   your wild reaction (below) to my  calm email yesterday in which I 
had
   carefully tried to avoid our earlier combative exchanges and present 
a
   different (ie non-subjective) approach in a non-confrontational 
manner
   - 'a fresh tack'..
   I'll also be interested to see what communications you privately 
sent
   to me that I've leaked in an open public forum in my mailing of
   yesterday.  As far as I can see, the only intimation to anybody else
   that you've privately communicated is my opening phrase in this 
email
   "As you now know" 
   I have already explained that reading our previous communications 
has
   so far clearly failed to influence each other - but just because I
   disagreed with you doesn't mean I didn't read them!  In fact 
yesterday
   I raised this very matter and intentionally wrote (see below)  "Our
   exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade each
   other of our respective cases  and therefore, to make any  progress,
   another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and  closer
   related to contemporary organological, musicological and source
   evidence."
   All the quotations I used from you are from your open public 
mailings
   to this forum and are taken verbatim and were not edited - perhaps 
you
   changed your mind subsequently.
   Finally, I do think general politeness is important in these 
exchanges
   and thus I'll be interested to read of the "torrent of personal 
abuse"
   directed towards you - other than, naturally, simply fair comment.
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: "mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu" <mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: VihuelaList <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Cc: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 20:28
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Obviously it will take me some time to reply to this message which 
in
   part is a response to a message which I sent to Martyn privately.
   It will be all the more difficult because he has clearly not read 
any
   of my messages and has consistently misrepresented everything that I
   have said in them.
   I will just say at this juncture that he may be entitled to send his
   messages to all of the lists if he wishes to but I don't think that 
he
   is entitled to send a torrent of personal abuse to any of them.
   Watch this space!
   As ever
   Monica
   Original Message
   From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: 29/01/2018 17:16
   To: "[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"<[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189)  - a fresh tack!
   - Forwarded Message -
 From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 To: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
 <[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
 <[7]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
 Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
 Dear Monica,
 As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
 mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going
   to   leave it  for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might
   soon
 expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in 
a
 piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying 
and
 awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now.

   
---

 Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
 generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're 
relevant
 there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar)
   can  find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's
   not
   a   fiendish plot of any kind!  But on with the motley..

   
---

 Our exchanges of 'te

[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! 2

2018-01-30 Thread Martyn Hodgson 
   Dear Monica,
   I don't usually 'knee-jerk' these things but was truly astonished at
   your wild reaction (below) to my  calm email yesterday in which I had
   carefully tried to avoid our earlier combative exchanges and present a
   different (ie non-subjective) approach in a non-confrontational manner
   - 'a fresh tack'..
   I'll also be interested to see what communications you privately sent
   to me that I've leaked in an open public forum in my mailing of
   yesterday.  As far as I can see, the only intimation to anybody else
   that you've privately communicated is my opening phrase in this email
   "As you now know" 
   I have already explained that reading our previous communications has
   so far clearly failed to influence each other - but just because I
   disagreed with you doesn't mean I didn't read them!  In fact yesterday
   I raised this very matter and intentionally wrote (see below)  "Our
   exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade each
   other of our respective cases  and therefore, to make any  progress,
   another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and  closer
   related to contemporary organological, musicological and source
   evidence."
   All the quotations I used from you are from your open public mailings
   to this forum and are taken verbatim and were not edited - perhaps you
   changed your mind subsequently.
   Finally, I do think general politeness is important in these exchanges
   and thus I'll be interested to read of the "torrent of personal abuse"
   directed towards you - other than, naturally, simply fair comment.
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: "mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu" <mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: VihuelaList <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Cc: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 20:28
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Obviously it will take me some time to reply to this message which in
   part is a response to a message which I sent to Martyn privately.
   It will be all the more difficult because he has clearly not read any
   of my messages and has consistently misrepresented everything that I
   have said in them.
   I will just say at this juncture that he may be entitled to send his
   messages to all of the lists if he wishes to but I don't think that he
   is entitled to send a torrent of personal abuse to any of them.
   Watch this space!
   As ever
   Monica
   Original Message
   From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: 29/01/2018 17:16
   To: "[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"<[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189)  - a fresh tack!
   - Forwarded Message -
 From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 To: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
 <[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
 <[7]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
 Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
 Dear Monica,
 As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
 mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going
   to   leave it  for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might
   soon
 expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a
 piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying and
 awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now.

   ---

 Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
 generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're relevant
 there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar)
   can  find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's
   not
   a   fiendish plot of any kind!  But on with the motley..

   ---

 Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
 each other of our respective cases  and therefore, to make any
 progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps
   and   closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and
   source   evidence.
Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions:
   - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
 that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
 instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just
   three   are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument
   with
 five fingered courses and seven free basses -  you stated that  "The
 mandora has seven unstopped basses" );

[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!

2018-01-29 Thread mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 
Obviously it will take me some time to reply to this message which in 
part is a response to a message which I sent to Martyn privately.

It will be all the more difficult because he has clearly not read any 
of my messages and has consistently misrepresented everything that I 
have said in them.

I will just say at this juncture that he may be entitled to send his 
messages to all of the lists if he wishes to but I don't think that he 
is entitled to send a torrent of personal abuse to any of them.

Watch this space!

As ever

Monica


Original Message
From: hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: 29/01/2018 17:16 
To: "vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189)  - a fresh tack!

- Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
   <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
   <baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
   Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Dear Monica,
   As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
   mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going 
to
   leave it  for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might soon
   expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a
   piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying and
   awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now.
   
---
   --
   Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
   generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're relevant
   there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar) 
can
   find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's not 
a
   fiendish plot of any kind!  But on with the motley..
   
---
   
   Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
   each other of our respective cases  and therefore, to make any
   progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps 
and
   closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and 
source
   evidence.  Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions:
 - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
   that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
   instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just 
three
   are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven free basses -  you stated that  "The
   mandora has seven unstopped basses" );
 - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
   mandora and that the remainder requiring just five courses are
   principally for gytarra (although, as I was at pains to point out
   earlier, any passably competent mandora player would easily be able 
to
   add a low sixth where suitable in the guitar pieces and similarly, 
in
   many cases, a guitarist would be able to play the errant low bass an
   octave up by employing the open third course). The couple of pieces
   which have the seven additional free basses notated also have a left
   hand fingered bass notated in the usual register and, whilst we've 
not
   discussed this so far, I believe these additional low course 
numberings
   are therefore simply later additions to these two pieces (note also
   that the scribe left off adding these low basses half way through 
the
   piece numbered 45! ).
   
---
   ---
   1. DATE OF D-189
   You stated that the MS could have been written  "anytime in the
   eighteenth century"  - but with no evidence for this assertion. I 
do,
   of course, understand why you favour such a  wide range of dates 
since
   it may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar
   (developed, in fact, only later in the eighteenth century) for all 
the
   plucked works in this collection
   However, others date the writing of this MS considerably earlier,
   including:
   James Tyler - 'early 18th century';
   Gary Boye - 'beginning of the 18th century';
   Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700);
   Jaroslav Pohanka (Principal editor of Musica Antiqua Bohemia) - 'vor
   1700 geschrieben' (written before 1700);
   My own dating (based on stylistic traits and the piece attributed  
to
   C. Loschi) is 1700 to 1720.
   Accordingly, to summarise, the best date range estimate for 
compilation
   of this MS lies between 1690 and 1720.
   
---
   --
   2. CALLICHO

[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!

2018-01-29 Thread Martyn Hodgson 
   - Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   To: Monica Hall ; VihuelaList
   ; Baroque Lute List
   
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
   Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Dear Monica,
   As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
   mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going to
   leave it  for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might soon
   expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a
   piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying and
   awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now.
   ---
   --
   Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
   generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're relevant
   there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar) can
   find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's not a
   fiendish plot of any kind!  But on with the motley..
   ---
   
   Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
   each other of our respective cases  and therefore, to make any
   progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and
   closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and source
   evidence.  Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions:
 - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
   that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
   instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three
   are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven free basses -  you stated that  "The
   mandora has seven unstopped basses" );
 - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
   mandora and that the remainder requiring just five courses are
   principally for gytarra (although, as I was at pains to point out
   earlier, any passably competent mandora player would easily be able to
   add a low sixth where suitable in the guitar pieces and similarly, in
   many cases, a guitarist would be able to play the errant low bass an
   octave up by employing the open third course). The couple of pieces
   which have the seven additional free basses notated also have a left
   hand fingered bass notated in the usual register and, whilst we've not
   discussed this so far, I believe these additional low course numberings
   are therefore simply later additions to these two pieces (note also
   that the scribe left off adding these low basses half way through the
   piece numbered 45! ).
   ---
   ---
   1. DATE OF D-189
   You stated that the MS could have been written  "anytime in the
   eighteenth century"  - but with no evidence for this assertion. I do,
   of course, understand why you favour such a  wide range of dates since
   it may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar
   (developed, in fact, only later in the eighteenth century) for all the
   plucked works in this collection
   However, others date the writing of this MS considerably earlier,
   including:
   James Tyler - 'early 18th century';
   Gary Boye - 'beginning of the 18th century';
   Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700);
   Jaroslav Pohanka (Principal editor of Musica Antiqua Bohemia) - 'vor
   1700 geschrieben' (written before 1700);
   My own dating (based on stylistic traits and the piece attributed  to
   C. Loschi) is 1700 to 1720.
   Accordingly, to summarise, the best date range estimate for compilation
   of this MS lies between 1690 and 1720.
   ---
   --
   2. CALLICHON/MANDORA
   Around 70 extant historical mandoras/gallichons have been identified
   made between 1688 and 1780 (most are listed in Dieter Kirsch's 'La
   mandora au XVIII siecle): the vast majority (97%) of these are six
   course instruments but a couple have more courses - one is 8 course and
   one 9 course . These two are both later eighteenth century and thus too
   late to be the sort of instruments originally employed for D-189.
   Extant instruments also well reflect contemporary iconography showing
   the overwhelming predominance of the six course mandora; and similarly
   with extant tablatures - though a very few do contain some pieces for 8
   or 9 course mandora (such as Univerzitna Kniznica Bratislava Ms 1092
   which contains galant/classical music c.1770 requiring a mandora with
   eight courses).