[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
Thanks so much, Monica! Best, Jocelyn On 3/3/2011 10:56 AM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Finally managed to listen. Very interesting and enjoyable. Hope there will be some more. Monica - Original Message - From: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 7:06 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Renaissance Guitar Podcast Dear Early Guitar List, If you click the link below, you¹re on your way to my 16 minute podcast, which includes commentary and music from my recent CD, Ma Guiterre je te chante. A transcript of my commentary is available on the site, as well. This was produced by ECU¹s School of Music. If you have time to listen, I hope you enjoy it. http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_podcast.c fm Best wishes, Jocelyn -- Jocelyn Nelson, DMA Teaching Assistant Professor Early Guitar, Music History 336 Fletcher Music Center School of Music East Carolina University 252.328.1255 office 252.328.6258 fax nels...@ecu.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
Dear Stuart, Thanks for your kind words about my podcast. And thanks also for your thought-provoking comments. I do think that before the mid-16^th century publishing spree the guitar was--and has been continuously ever since--a popular instrument that was mostly played as an accompaniment to song and dance, rather than as a vehicle for the more composed, notated, art music genres that were common on lute. Strumming is, generally speaking, universally idiomatic in guitar playing, and it's especially effective in accompaniment; in fact, that's the only way it can be heard in many accompaniment situations. And it does more than let the guitar be heard: it emphasizes the metric accents for singers and dancers, whereas exclusively plucking doesn't usually have the sonic power to do this. I think this is good evidence for strumming as a performance practice in past centuries. Plucking is also idiomatic; I hope you don't take this to mean that I think plucking didn't happen, or that popular guitar styles have all strumming and no plucking. Ijust think strumming was strong in popular styles because it's so successful for popular functions. As for what they strummed in the 16^th century or before, be careful not to read major and minor chords into my suggestion that they strummed; I agree that would be anachronistic. They must have played whatever worked best for the songs anddances. Sequences such as early versions of the chaconne or saraband are probably not that far off the mark, though, since those sequences came from the New World via the guitar, according to Esses, Hudson, and others, and they showed up as popular guitar sequences at the very beginning of the 5-courseliterature. But I see that you bring up major and minor chords in relation to these sequences in your following posts. This is really tricky because on the one hand common practice tonality wasn't conventional until the 18^th century. On the other hand, guitarists--and some of these sequences--were pushing those boundaries much earlier (they were on the cutting edge!). In other words, when you say major and minor chords, well, yes, there were many triads and with just those intervals, but the modal framework was different from common practice, yet in some cases similar enough to modern theoretical paradigms to really confuse us. You wondered what dispositions of notes earlier guitarists would have strummed, if not sequences. Secular songs such as chansons and madrigals would give guidance for that issue, because those textures were often played by some combination of instruments and voice: often by one solo instrument or by one instrument with voice (such as the last song on my CD and also on the podcast, Tant que vivray, which I based on the notes from the original chanson; the added notes are ornamental. And I strum sometimes!). I don't know anything about guitars before the 16^th century, by the way. I'm not saying there weren't any; I just haven't seen anything about them. Maybe others on this list have good ideas about that. Although I see Martyn has come up with some good evidence for strumming in the published guitar literature, I'm glad we have a skeptic on the list to remind us that explicit evidence is rather slim. Best wishes, Jocelyn -- Jocelyn Nelson, DMA Teaching Assistant Professor Early Guitar, Music History 336 Fletcher Music Center School of Music East Carolina University 252.328.1255 office 252.328.6258 fax nels...@ecu.edu On 3/3/2011 1:50 PM, Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 02/03/2011 19:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Dear Early Guitar List, If you click the link below, you^1re on your way to my 16 minute podcast, which includes commentary and music from my recent CD, Ma Guiterre je te chante. A transcript of my commentary is available on the site, as well. This was produced by ECU^1s School of Music. If you have time to listen, I hope you enjoy it. [2]http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_podc ast.cfm Best wishes, Jocelyn I enjoyed listening to your podcast (and I do have your CD) and I hope you will do more podcasts. There is something I'd be very interested to follow up in your role of four-course guitar player _and_ teacher of music history! You say that the four-course guitar was a popular strumming instrument and I think you imply it was a popular strumming instrument before the guitar fad of the 16th century. This is something that intrigues me and I have raised it in the past. Monica and Rob and others have suggested that strumming is very old - older than the four-course repertoire as it appears in the mid 16th century. But there is no explicit strumming at all in the
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
On 04/03/2011 17:25, Monica Hall wrote: In the absence of direct evidence (ie music notated in earlier sources) perhaps, members of the jury, we need to reflect on circumstantial evidence; for example 15th century iconography showing right arms/hands held in a more strumming than a plucking position. ie right hand not resting on the belly but held above the instrument - maybe even higher up towards the neck/body join. But we also need to consider whether they are actually playing with a plectrum. And Stuart seems to assume that as far as the lute is concerned chords were always played with the thumb and fingers with a separate finger for each note. How many sources actually say that this is so? As far as I am aware the ring finger was not much used so how do you play 4, 5 and 6 part chords? Brushing up with the thumb or down with the i or i and m (or both!). I'm not quite sure what Martin is doing on the first full chord of his latest 'new piece of the month' but it must be a combination of these. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/month/1103.mp3 Now we could be on the delightful topic of what counts as a strum... This dignified Prelude that Martin plays is not a strumfest. Stuart Monica regards Martyn --- On Fri, 4/3/11, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: JocelynNelson nels...@ecu.edu, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 4 March, 2011, 10:56 On 04/03/2011 09:14, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Stuart, I'm sorry to have to write like this, but did you not follow the postings I made when this was discussed earlier (months ago)? - I pointed out some specific strum signs in mid 16th century 4 course books. Two examples I recall giving are La Seraphine from Morlaye's 4th book of 1552 and a Paduanne on page 16.. I think I understand that your personal preference is to pluck all this stuff but I wouldn't have thought this should outweigh considerations of the actaul evidence. It really is pointless responding to these things only to find that months later it seems to have not been read. Martyn, I think we all suffer from this! Many - well, several - times I've noticed that later messages in a thread where I have contributed have clearly missed what seemed to me a key point which I had carefully explained (or so I thought). It's the nature of the medium. And it's in the nature of the medium for threads to go off in different directions. I was interested to discuss/chat about the practice of strumming chord sequences well before the 1550s (as Jocelyn seemed to be suggesting) - but it's not happening. I'm surprised that I'd completely forgotten that you had given definite evidence for strumming in the four-course repertoire. There is a news item today that scientists can now grow brain cells - so I'm hoping to get hold of a few more. These are discussion lists, chat lists, lots of details, opinions.. and banter (which we Brits can't seem to master at all) and open to all, experts and all. (I've played the four-course guitar in the past and I did try strumming in places and have nothing against it) Stuart Clearly, in these early days of strumming notation we're not going to find the sophisticated notation developed some 50 years later. In short the evidence is that strumming was used at the time, was used later and thus may have been more common than you might wish. It's all rather reminiscent of earlier exchanges about Guerau's work of 1694 for 5 course guitar: I see numerous comments to the effect that Guerau never indicated strumming in this collection (even Jeffreys in his comments to accompany the facsimile edition). But, of course, he does - one just needs to look hard enough (for those who missed my earlier see for example page 53 penultimate system bars 1 to 4) regards Martyn --- On Thu, 3/3/11, Stuart Walsh[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast To: Nelson, Jocelyn[3]nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 3 March, 2011, 18:50 On 02/03/2011 19:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Dear Early Guitar List, If you click the link below, you^1re on your way to my 16 minute podcast, which includes commentary and music from my recent CD, Ma Guiterre je te chante. A transcript of my commentary is available on the site, as well. This was produced by ECU^1s School of Music. If you have time to listen, I hope you enjoy it. [1][5]http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
But surely this is conjecture? Is there any actual evidence that four-course guitarists strummed? How do we know that publishers/scribes didn't need to indicate a technique that we don't actually know they had? It's not possible to argue that it is simply a limitation of printing techniques of the time without reasonable evidence that strumming was the norm. Aren't we in danger of reading later practices into earlier ones? What evidence is there that any other way of playing chords in this repertoire was the norm as you put it? You seem to be suggesting that all chords were always played using a combination of thumb and separate fingers for the individual notes in a chord. Have you tried playing any of these pieces on a 4-course guitar at speed? But anyway, what I was asking was how long before the mid 16th century might guitarists have been strumming sequences of major and minor chords (e.g.. to accompany singing/dancing) A reasonable question to ask, I think? Sorry - I didn't realize you were being quite so specific as that. It is impossible to put precise dates on things like this simply because there is no documentary evidence at such an early date. (Bermudo does mention Musica golpeado in 1555). All that one can say is that single chords would certainly have been strummed. 1536 isn't much earlier than the first guitar books. The technique is hardly likely to have been invented by Newsidler. Again - only a small amount of lute music survives from before the beginning of the 16th century and what appears in print isn't necessarily representative of what everyone does. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/PhaleseBouffons1.jpg Thanks for this - I had actually saved it but there isn't always time to check everything. What I think I said was that this is not indicated in the original - but nor is any other way of playing the chords. Surely not a hundred years earlier? My amateur understanding of 15th century music is that most of it is in three parts (but some monophonic, I don't think anyone is suggesting 100 years earlier but you just can't put precise dates on these things. Monica. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
Clearly, in these early days of strumming notation we're not going to find the sophisticated notation developed some 50 years later. In short the evidence is that strumming was used at the time, was used later and thus may have been more common than you might wish. I agree with what you say about this! Even 50 years later there were still experiments with different ways of notating strumming - Montesardo and manuscript sources - before the system of Colonna and Sanseverino appeared in print and apparently became standard in Italy. Before the 5-course became popular there wasn't the need to indicate this in such detail. It is a change of emphasis. It's all rather reminiscent of earlier exchanges about Guerau's work of 1694 for 5 course guitar: I see numerous comments to the effect that Guerau never indicated strumming in this collection (even Jeffreys in his comments to accompany the facsimile edition). I pointed this out to Brian Jeffery! But he didn't take any notice. It does seem that we keep going over the same things endlessly - but I suppose it may be of some help to people who have joined the list at a later date. Monica --- On Thu, 3/3/11, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast To: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 3 March, 2011, 18:50 On 02/03/2011 19:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Dear Early Guitar List, If you click the link below, you^1re on your way to my 16 minute podcast, which includes commentary and music from my recent CD, Ma Guiterre je te chante. A transcript of my commentary is available on the site, as well. This was produced by ECU^1s School of Music. If you have time to listen, I hope you enjoy it. [1]http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_podc ast.cfm Best wishes, Jocelyn I enjoyed listening to your podcast (and I do have your CD) and I hope you will do more podcasts. There is something I'd be very interested to follow up in your role of four-course guitar player _and_ teacher of music history! You say that the four-course guitar was a popular strumming instrument and I think you imply it was a popular strumming instrument before the guitar fad of the 16th century. This is something that intrigues me and I have raised it in the past. Monica and Rob and others have suggested that strumming is very old - older than the four-course repertoire as it appears in the mid 16th century. But there is no explicit strumming at all in the four-course repertoire. The Braye MS has some pieces with sequences of block chords which could be strummed - but could be plucked too. There was a fairly recent discussion on this list about some modern transcriptions by Giesbert of the Phalese (1570s) four-course music and it emerged that Giesbert's extensive strumming indications were all his own invention! It seems very natural to us, to add strumming to some of the pieces in the four-course repertoire. And within a few decades the guitar was, for a while, exclusively a strummed instrument. But I wonder how far before the 1550s could we reasonably expect guitarists to have been strumming sequences of block chords - major and minor I, IV, Vs etc. Surely not a hundred years earlier? My amateur understanding of 15th century music is that most of it is in three parts (but some monophonic, and some in more than three parts). Chord sequences simply hadn't been invented then (?) and it would be quite anachronistic to try and impose them on the music(?). Improvisation was based around 'tenors' - lines of long notes with rules about acceptable and unacceptable intervals, not on chord sequences. Around 1500 the earliest music (published and in MS) for the lute include block chords (doubling notes according to the practicalities of a fingerboard in a particular tuning) but not chord sequences. The block chords mingle with melodic lines - which predominate. So(?): no likelihood of strumming there. But this early lute music also includes 'grounds' - or(?) what later came to be called grounds. I wonder if these very early 'grounds' were a sort of half way house between the old 'tenors' - a single line, or were actually strummable - and actually strummed - chord sequence? Maybe you don't want to commit yourself to actual dates - but I wonder how far back do you think guitarists (and citternists and others) could have been strumming chord sequences? And if they were strumming something else: what dispositions of notes could they have been strumming? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
On 04/03/2011 09:14, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Stuart, I'm sorry to have to write like this, but did you not follow the postings I made when this was discussed earlier (months ago)? - I pointed out some specific strum signs in mid 16th century 4 course books. Two examples I recall giving are La Seraphine from Morlaye's 4th book of 1552 and a Paduanne on page 16.. I think I understand that your personal preference is to pluck all this stuff but I wouldn't have thought this should outweigh considerations of the actaul evidence. It really is pointless responding to these things only to find that months later it seems to have not been read. Martyn, I think we all suffer from this! Many - well, several - times I've noticed that later messages in a thread where I have contributed have clearly missed what seemed to me a key point which I had carefully explained (or so I thought). It's the nature of the medium. And it's in the nature of the medium for threads to go off in different directions. I was interested to discuss/chat about the practice of strumming chord sequences well before the 1550s (as Jocelyn seemed to be suggesting) - but it's not happening. I'm surprised that I'd completely forgotten that you had given definite evidence for strumming in the four-course repertoire. There is a news item today that scientists can now grow brain cells - so I'm hoping to get hold of a few more. These are discussion lists, chat lists, lots of details, opinions.. and banter (which we Brits can't seem to master at all) and open to all, experts and all. (I've played the four-course guitar in the past and I did try strumming in places and have nothing against it) Stuart Clearly, in these early days of strumming notation we're not going to find the sophisticated notation developed some 50 years later. In short the evidence is that strumming was used at the time, was used later and thus may have been more common than you might wish. It's all rather reminiscent of earlier exchanges about Guerau's work of 1694 for 5 course guitar: I see numerous comments to the effect that Guerau never indicated strumming in this collection (even Jeffreys in his comments to accompany the facsimile edition). But, of course, he does - one just needs to look hard enough (for those who missed my earlier see for example page 53 penultimate system bars 1 to 4) regards Martyn --- On Thu, 3/3/11, Stuart Walshs.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walshs.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast To: Nelson, Jocelynnels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalistvihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 3 March, 2011, 18:50 On 02/03/2011 19:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Dear Early Guitar List, If you click the link below, you^1re on your way to my 16 minute podcast, which includes commentary and music from my recent CD, Ma Guiterre je te chante. A transcript of my commentary is available on the site, as well. This was produced by ECU^1s School of Music. If you have time to listen, I hope you enjoy it. [1]http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_podc ast.cfm Best wishes, Jocelyn I enjoyed listening to your podcast (and I do have your CD) and I hope you will do more podcasts. There is something I'd be very interested to follow up in your role of four-course guitar player _and_ teacher of music history! You say that the four-course guitar was a popular strumming instrument and I think you imply it was a popular strumming instrument before the guitar fad of the 16th century. This is something that intrigues me and I have raised it in the past. Monica and Rob and others have suggested that strumming is very old - older than the four-course repertoire as it appears in the mid 16th century. But there is no explicit strumming at all in the four-course repertoire. The Braye MS has some pieces with sequences of block chords which could be strummed - but could be plucked too. There was a fairly recent discussion on this list about some modern transcriptions by Giesbert of the Phalese (1570s) four-course music and it emerged that Giesbert's extensive strumming indications were all his own invention! It seems very natural to us, to add strumming to some of the pieces in the four-course repertoire. And within a few decades the guitar was, for a while, exclusively a strummed instrument. But I wonder how far before the 1550s could we reasonably expect guitarists to have been strumming sequences of block chords - major and minor I, IV, Vs etc. Surely not a hundred years earlier? My amateur understanding of 15th century music is that most of it is in three parts
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
Well I guess 15th and early 16th century strumming practice is hard to find and I think we have to do what m'learned friends often rely on; the balance of probabilities. In this case as we have seen, there is clear evidence for strumming (and plucking) the 4 course guitar in printed sources c. 1550 which I suggest, m'lud, means that the practice was well established by then thus taking us back to the early 16th century. Before that I really have no opinion since I'm not tremendously keen on conjectural reconstructions (having heard many most unlikely ones in a very 'new age' style with much percussion and the rest). In the absence of direct evidence (ie music notated in earlier sources) perhaps, members of the jury, we need to reflect on circumstantial evidence; for example 15th century iconography showing right arms/hands held in a more strumming than a plucking position. ie right hand not resting on the belly but held above the instrument - maybe even higher up towards the neck/body join. regards Martyn --- On Fri, 4/3/11, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: JocelynNelson nels...@ecu.edu, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 4 March, 2011, 10:56 On 04/03/2011 09:14, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Stuart, I'm sorry to have to write like this, but did you not follow the postings I made when this was discussed earlier (months ago)? - I pointed out some specific strum signs in mid 16th century 4 course books. Two examples I recall giving are La Seraphine from Morlaye's 4th book of 1552 and a Paduanne on page 16.. I think I understand that your personal preference is to pluck all this stuff but I wouldn't have thought this should outweigh considerations of the actaul evidence. It really is pointless responding to these things only to find that months later it seems to have not been read. Martyn, I think we all suffer from this! Many - well, several - times I've noticed that later messages in a thread where I have contributed have clearly missed what seemed to me a key point which I had carefully explained (or so I thought). It's the nature of the medium. And it's in the nature of the medium for threads to go off in different directions. I was interested to discuss/chat about the practice of strumming chord sequences well before the 1550s (as Jocelyn seemed to be suggesting) - but it's not happening. I'm surprised that I'd completely forgotten that you had given definite evidence for strumming in the four-course repertoire. There is a news item today that scientists can now grow brain cells - so I'm hoping to get hold of a few more. These are discussion lists, chat lists, lots of details, opinions.. and banter (which we Brits can't seem to master at all) and open to all, experts and all. (I've played the four-course guitar in the past and I did try strumming in places and have nothing against it) Stuart Clearly, in these early days of strumming notation we're not going to find the sophisticated notation developed some 50 years later. In short the evidence is that strumming was used at the time, was used later and thus may have been more common than you might wish. It's all rather reminiscent of earlier exchanges about Guerau's work of 1694 for 5 course guitar: I see numerous comments to the effect that Guerau never indicated strumming in this collection (even Jeffreys in his comments to accompany the facsimile edition). But, of course, he does - one just needs to look hard enough (for those who missed my earlier see for example page 53 penultimate system bars 1 to 4) regards Martyn --- On Thu, 3/3/11, Stuart Walsh[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast To: Nelson, Jocelyn[3]nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 3 March, 2011, 18:50 On 02/03/2011 19:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Dear Early Guitar List, If you click the link below, you^1re on your way to my 16 minute podcast, which includes commentary and music from my recent CD, Ma Guiterre je te chante. A transcript of my commentary is available on the site, as well. This was produced by ECU^1s School of Music. If you have time to listen, I hope you enjoy it. [1][5]http
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
In the absence of direct evidence (ie music notated in earlier sources) perhaps, members of the jury, we need to reflect on circumstantial evidence; for example 15th century iconography showing right arms/hands held in a more strumming than a plucking position. ie right hand not resting on the belly but held above the instrument - maybe even higher up towards the neck/body join. But we also need to consider whether they are actually playing with a plectrum. And Stuart seems to assume that as far as the lute is concerned chords were always played with the thumb and fingers with a separate finger for each note. How many sources actually say that this is so? As far as I am aware the ring finger was not much used so how do you play 4, 5 and 6 part chords? Monica regards Martyn --- On Fri, 4/3/11, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: JocelynNelson nels...@ecu.edu, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 4 March, 2011, 10:56 On 04/03/2011 09:14, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Stuart, I'm sorry to have to write like this, but did you not follow the postings I made when this was discussed earlier (months ago)? - I pointed out some specific strum signs in mid 16th century 4 course books. Two examples I recall giving are La Seraphine from Morlaye's 4th book of 1552 and a Paduanne on page 16.. I think I understand that your personal preference is to pluck all this stuff but I wouldn't have thought this should outweigh considerations of the actaul evidence. It really is pointless responding to these things only to find that months later it seems to have not been read. Martyn, I think we all suffer from this! Many - well, several - times I've noticed that later messages in a thread where I have contributed have clearly missed what seemed to me a key point which I had carefully explained (or so I thought). It's the nature of the medium. And it's in the nature of the medium for threads to go off in different directions. I was interested to discuss/chat about the practice of strumming chord sequences well before the 1550s (as Jocelyn seemed to be suggesting) - but it's not happening. I'm surprised that I'd completely forgotten that you had given definite evidence for strumming in the four-course repertoire. There is a news item today that scientists can now grow brain cells - so I'm hoping to get hold of a few more. These are discussion lists, chat lists, lots of details, opinions.. and banter (which we Brits can't seem to master at all) and open to all, experts and all. (I've played the four-course guitar in the past and I did try strumming in places and have nothing against it) Stuart Clearly, in these early days of strumming notation we're not going to find the sophisticated notation developed some 50 years later. In short the evidence is that strumming was used at the time, was used later and thus may have been more common than you might wish. It's all rather reminiscent of earlier exchanges about Guerau's work of 1694 for 5 course guitar: I see numerous comments to the effect that Guerau never indicated strumming in this collection (even Jeffreys in his comments to accompany the facsimile edition). But, of course, he does - one just needs to look hard enough (for those who missed my earlier see for example page 53 penultimate system bars 1 to 4) regards Martyn --- On Thu, 3/3/11, Stuart Walsh[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast To: Nelson, Jocelyn[3]nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 3 March, 2011, 18:50 On 02/03/2011 19:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Dear Early Guitar List, If you click the link below, you^1re on your way to my 16 minute podcast, which includes commentary and music from my recent CD, Ma Guiterre je te chante. A transcript of my commentary is available on the site, as well. This was produced by ECU^1s School of Music. If you have time to listen, I hope you enjoy it. [1][5]http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_p odc ast.cfm Best wishes, Jocelyn I enjoyed listening to your podcast (and I do have your CD) and I hope you will do more podcasts. There is something I'd be very interested to follow up in your role of four-course
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
On 2 March 2011 20:06, Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu wrote: If you click the link below, youąre on your way to my 16 minute podcast, http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_podcast.cfm That was nice! Thank you for sharing. And an interesting fretting scheme you have: double ninth fret? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
On 02/03/2011 19:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Dear Early Guitar List, If you click the link below, you¹re on your way to my 16 minute podcast, which includes commentary and music from my recent CD, Ma Guiterre je te chante. A transcript of my commentary is available on the site, as well. This was produced by ECU¹s School of Music. If you have time to listen, I hope you enjoy it. http://www.ecu.edu/cs-admin/mktg/treasured_tunes_jocelyn_nelson_podcast.cfm Best wishes, Jocelyn I enjoyed listening to your podcast (and I do have your CD) and I hope you will do more podcasts. There is something I'd be very interested to follow up in your role of four-course guitar player _and_ teacher of music history! You say that the four-course guitar was a popular strumming instrument and I think you imply it was a popular strumming instrument before the guitar fad of the 16th century. This is something that intrigues me and I have raised it in the past. Monica and Rob and others have suggested that strumming is very old - older than the four-course repertoire as it appears in the mid 16th century. But there is no explicit strumming at all in the four-course repertoire. The Braye MS has some pieces with sequences of block chords which could be strummed - but could be plucked too. There was a fairly recent discussion on this list about some modern transcriptions by Giesbert of the Phalese (1570s) four-course music and it emerged that Giesbert's extensive strumming indications were all his own invention! It seems very natural to us, to add strumming to some of the pieces in the four-course repertoire. And within a few decades the guitar was, for a while, exclusively a strummed instrument. But I wonder how far before the 1550s could we reasonably expect guitarists to have been strumming sequences of block chords - major and minor I, IV, Vs etc. Surely not a hundred years earlier? My amateur understanding of 15th century music is that most of it is in three parts (but some monophonic, and some in more than three parts). Chord sequences simply hadn't been invented then (?) and it would be quite anachronistic to try and impose them on the music(?). Improvisation was based around 'tenors' - lines of long notes with rules about acceptable and unacceptable intervals, not on chord sequences. Around 1500 the earliest music (published and in MS) for the lute include block chords (doubling notes according to the practicalities of a fingerboard in a particular tuning) but not chord sequences. The block chords mingle with melodic lines - which predominate. So(?): no likelihood of strumming there. But this early lute music also includes 'grounds' - or(?) what later came to be called grounds. I wonder if these very early 'grounds' were a sort of half way house between the old 'tenors' - a single line, or were actually strummable - and actually strummed - chord sequence? Maybe you don't want to commit yourself to actual dates - but I wonder how far back do you think guitarists (and citternists and others) could have been strumming chord sequences? And if they were strumming something else: what dispositions of notes could they have been strumming? Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
Monica and Rob and others have suggested that strumming is very old - older than the four-course repertoire as it appears in the mid 16th century. But there is no explicit strumming at all in the four-course repertoire. The Braye MS has some pieces with sequences of block chords which could be strummed - but could be plucked too. This subject has indeed come up on a number of occasions in the past - we seem to keep going over and over the same topics. Jocelyn may have something to say about it when she has time. What you mean is that there is no actual indication in the surviving 4-course repertoire that the 4-part chords should be strummed (but there is no indication that they should be played in any other way either). The reason for this is because these books were printed using the same font of moveable type which was used for lute music - and indeed cittern music - and either the printer simply didn't have the means of indicating that chords should be strummed or didn't think it necessary. The same applies to the manuscript - there wasn't any need to indicate that the chords should be strummed. Players would know what to do. Morlaye's Quatriesne Livre includes pieces for the cittern printed in exactly the same way as the guitar music - but since the cittern is played with a plectrum the chords must be strummed. It is difficult to play many of these pieces at speed doing anything else. There is clear evidence that chords were strummed on the lute certainly by 1536 since there are pieces in Neusidler's Ein Newgeordent kunstlich Lautenbuch where chords are marked mit durch streichen. There are also pieces in Dalza which contain passages which are probably intended to be strummed - again - it would be difficult to play them in any other way. These were all included in a supplement in Lute News some time ago. Our own CG also points out that the lute (and the guitar) were originally played with a plecturm - so that originally any chords must have been strummed. There was a fairly recent discussion on this list about some modern transcriptions by Giesbert of the Phalese (1570s) four-course music and it emerged that Giesbert's extensive strumming indications were all his own invention! As far as I can remember it was the way in which he had indicated this rather than the fact that he suggested that the chords were to be strummed. But I wonder how far before the 1550s could we reasonably expect guitarists to have been strumming sequences of block chords - major and minor I, IV, Vs etc. Surely not a hundred years earlier? My amateur understanding of 15th century music is that most of it is in three parts (but some monophonic, and some in more than three parts). Chord sequences simply hadn't been invented then (?) and it would be quite anachronistic to try and impose them on the music(?). Improvisation was based around 'tenors' - lines of long notes with rules about acceptable and unacceptable intervals, not on chord sequences. This is such an oversimplification that it is difficult to comment on it without writing a dissertation. You just can't sum things up in this way. Some of the songs in the Cancionero de Palacio are based on chord sequences like the Romanesca You must make a distinction between sacred polyphony and more popular music ...etc. Around 1500 the earliest music (published and in MS) for the lute include block chords (doubling notes according to the practicalities of a fingerboard in a particular tuning) but not chord sequences. The block chords mingle with melodic lines - which predominate. So(?): no likelihood of strumming there. But that is what Neusidler indicates. The pieces consist of block chords with the top note repeated in a tremulo effect. I'll leave Jocelyn to comment on the rest of this. Monica But this early lute music also includes 'grounds' - or(?) what later came to be called grounds. I wonder if these very early 'grounds' were a sort of half way house between the old 'tenors' - a single line, or were actually strummable - and actually strummed - chord sequence? Maybe you don't want to commit yourself to actual dates - but I wonder how far back do you think guitarists (and citternists and others) could have been strumming chord sequences? And if they were strumming something else: what dispositions of notes could they have been strumming? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Renaissance Guitar Podcast
On 03/03/2011 20:18, Monica Hall wrote: This subject has indeed come up on a number of occasions in the past - we seem to keep going over and over the same topics. Well that's alright with me! What you mean is that there is no actual indication in the surviving 4-course repertoire that the 4-part chords should be strummed (but there is no indication that they should be played in any other way either). The reason for this is because these books were printed using the same font of moveable type which was used for lute music - and indeed cittern music - and either the printer simply didn't have the means of indicating that chords should be strummed or didn't think it necessary. The same applies to the manuscript - there wasn't any need to indicate that the chords should be strummed. Players would know what to do. But surely this is conjecture? Is there any actual evidence that four-course guitarists strummed? How do we know that publishers/scribes didn't need to indicate a technique that we don't actually know they had? It's not possible to argue that it is simply a limitation of printing techniques of the time without reasonable evidence that strumming was the norm. Aren't we in danger of reading later practices into earlier ones? But anyway, what I was asking was how long before the mid 16th century might guitarists have been strumming sequences of major and minor chords (e.g.. to accompany singing/dancing) A reasonable question to ask, I think? Morlaye's Quatriesne Livre includes pieces for the cittern printed in exactly the same way as the guitar music - but since the cittern is played with a plectrum the chords must be strummed. It is difficult to play many of these pieces at speed doing anything else. Playing with a plectrum and occasionally strumming a full chord isn't strumming in the sense I was going on about. I was wondering when strumming sequences of (major and minor) chords could have evolved. There is clear evidence that chords were strummed on the lute certainly by 1536 since there are pieces in Neusidler's Ein Newgeordent kunstlich Lautenbuch where chords are marked mit durch streichen. 1536 isn't much earlier than the first guitar books. There are also pieces in Dalza which contain passages which are probably intended to be strummed - again - it would be difficult to play them in any other way. These were all included in a supplement in Lute News some time ago. Our own CG also points out that the lute (and the guitar) were originally played with a plecturm - so that originally any chords must have been strummed. But again I was talking about strumming sequences of major and minor chords not the strumming of a chord as part of a piece with melodic lines too. There was a fairly recent discussion on this list about some modern transcriptions by Giesbert of the Phalese (1570s) four-course music and it emerged that Giesbert's extensive strumming indications were all his own invention! As far as I can remember it was the way in which he had indicated this rather than the fact that he suggested that the chords were to be strummed. You sent a copy of the original Les Bouffons and I put up Giesbert' version: http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/PhaleseBouffons1.jpg Giesbert, it seems, simply assumed that four-course guitarists just must have strummed. Stuart But I wonder how far before the 1550s could we reasonably expect guitarists to have been strumming sequences of block chords - major and minor I, IV, Vs etc. Surely not a hundred years earlier? My amateur understanding of 15th century music is that most of it is in three parts (but some monophonic, and some in more than three parts). Chord sequences simply hadn't been invented then (?) and it would be quite anachronistic to try and impose them on the music(?). Improvisation was based around 'tenors' - lines of long notes with rules about acceptable and unacceptable intervals, not on chord sequences. This is such an oversimplification that it is difficult to comment on it without writing a dissertation. You just can't sum things up in this way. Some of the songs in the Cancionero de Palacio are based on chord sequences like the Romanesca You must make a distinction between sacred polyphony and more popular music ...etc. Well, just popular music - and strumming. I'm just curious to know when guitarists (or indeed other pluckers could have been simply strumming sequences of major and minor chords. Around 1500 the earliest music (published and in MS) for the lute include block chords (doubling notes according to the practicalities of a fingerboard in a particular tuning) but not chord sequences. The block chords mingle with melodic lines - which predominate. So(?): no likelihood of strumming there. But that is what Neusidler indicates. The pieces consist of block chords with the top
