[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
Emiliano Mascarri wrote: > About two weeks ago I found these two 1784 engravings on Ebay. They're quite > interesting, but I couldn't buy them(it was night here), so I'll be able > to show you only the pictures shown for the bid-quite little- but try to take > a look at the small instrument on the left below the psalterium on the first > image.=0AAndrea=0Ahttp://1784copperplateengraving.blogspot.com/=0A=0A=0A=0A- > Messaggio originale It's quite hard to see the instrument - but it looks like a small (Spanish) guitar with a carved head on the pegbox. The strings fasten at the bridge (like a guitar) and not at the tail (as on cittern). Were bandoras popular in1784? > -=0ADa: Eloy Cruz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>=0AA: vihuela > =0AInviato: Domenica 17 dicembre 2006, > 3:54:37=0AOggetto: [VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands=0A=0A=0AThanks a lot, > Alexander=0A=0AThis is the only cittern illustration I can remember apart > from those =0Ain Minguet and Codice Saldivar 2, and is a very interesting > one. I'll =0Atry again to get the Romanillos book. Last time the web site > was =0Aapparently down.=0A=0A=0ABest Wishes=0A=0A=0AEloy=0A=0AOn Dec 16, > 2006, at 7:36 PM, Alexander Batov wrote:=0A> On Wednesday, December 13, 2006 > 10:5! > 0 PM=0A> Eloy Cruz wrote:=0A>=0A>> ... Back in 2003 I asked everyone about > more music or more surviving=0A>> Spanish=0A>> citterns or paintings and I > could find nothing ...=0A>=0A> Citterns are mentioned (even with detailing of > materials they are =0A> made of=0A> etc) in a number of late-16th century > Spanish accounts which J. =0A> Romanillos=0A> published in his latest book > "The Vihuela da Mano and the Spanish =0A> Guitars"=0A> (2002). Can provide a > list if desired ...=0A>=0A> There is also this: > http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/art/ =0A> anjo.html from=0A> Andrew > Hartig's " Cittern Picture Gallery" which can also be a =0A> fairly > close=0A> approximation to what the cittern looked like in the contemporary > =0A> Spain. One=0A> particular detail of this instrument seems rather > remarkable to me: =0A> the way=0A> the strings are fastened at the bottom > edge of the soundboard - a =0A> feature=0A> somewhat similar to modern > Portuguese violas where strings are =0A> pi! nn! > ed to=0A> what looks like a 'normal' bridge and then pass over! > a movab > le =0A> saddle-like=0A> thing in front of it.=0A>=0A> > Alexander=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ATo get on or off this list see list information > at=0Ahttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html=0A=0A__=0ADo > You Yahoo!?=0APoco spazio e tanto spam? Yahoo! Mail ti protegge dallo spam e > ti da tanto spazio gratuito per i tuoi file e i messaggi > =0Ahttp://mail.yahoo.it > -- > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
I'm sorry again. It just doesn't work. As you probably understood, you have to cut all the =OA=OA=OA and copy within http and .com.=0A=0AANdrea=0A=0A=0A- Messaggio originale -=0ADa: Emiliano Mascarri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>=0AA: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Domenica 17 dicembre 2006, 15:06:05=0AOggetto: [VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands=0A=0A=0ASorry, this should be the right address:=0A=0Ahttp://1784copperplateengraving.blogspot.com=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A- Messaggio originale -=0ADa: Eloy Cruz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>=0AA: vihuela =0AInviato: Domenica 17 dicembre 2006, 3:54:37=0AOggetto: [VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands=0A=0A=0AThanks a lot, Alexander=0A=0AThis is the only cittern illustration I can remember apart from those =0Ain Minguet and Codice Saldivar 2, and is a very interesting one. I'll =0Atry again to get the Romanillos book. Last time the web site was =0Aapparently down.=0A=0A=0ABest Wishes=0A=0A=0AEloy=0A=! 0AOn Dec 16, 2006, at 7:36 PM, Alexander Batov wrote:=0A> On Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:50 PM=0A> Eloy Cruz wrote:=0A>=0A>> ... Back in 2003 I asked everyone about more music or more surviving=0A>> Spanish=0A>> citterns or paintings and I could find nothing ...=0A>=0A> Citterns are mentioned (even with detailing of materials they are =0A> made of=0A> et!=0Ac) in a number of late-16th century Spanish accounts which J. =0A> Romanillos=0A> published in his latest book "The Vihuela da Mano and the Spanish =0A> Guitars"=0A> (2002). Can provide a list if desired ...=0A>=0A> There is also this: http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/art/ =0A> anjo.html from=0A> Andrew Hartig's " Cittern Picture Gallery" which can also be a =0A> fairly close=0A> approximation to what the cittern looked like in the contemporary =0A> Spain. One=0A> particular detail of this instrument seems rather remarkable to me: =0A> the way=0A> the strings are fastened at the bottom edge of the soundboard - a =0A> feature=0A> somewhat similar to modern Portuguese violas where strings are =0A> pinned to=0A> what looks like a 'normal' bridge and then pass over a movable =0A> saddle-like=0A> thing in front of it.=0A>=0A> Alexander=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ATo get on or off this list see list information at=0Ahttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html=0A=0! A_!=0A_=0ADo You Yahoo!?!=0A=0APoco =0Aspazio e tanto spam? Yahoo! Mail ti protegge dallo spam e ti da tanto spazio gratuito per i tuoi file e i messaggi =0Ahttp://mail.yahoo.it =0A--=0A=0A__=0ADo You Yahoo!?=0APoco spazio e tanto spam? Yahoo! Mail ti protegge dallo spam e ti da tanto spazio gratuito per i tuoi file e i messaggi =0Ahttp://mail.yahoo.it --
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
Sorry, this should be the right address:=0A=0Ahttp://1784copperplateengraving.blogspot.com=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A- Messaggio originale -=0ADa: Eloy Cruz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>=0AA: vihuela =0AInviato: Domenica 17 dicembre 2006, 3:54:37=0AOggetto: [VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands=0A=0A=0AThanks a lot, Alexander=0A=0AThis is the only cittern illustration I can remember apart from those =0Ain Minguet and Codice Saldivar 2, and is a very interesting one. I'll =0Atry again to get the Romanillos book. Last time the web site was =0Aapparently down.=0A=0A=0ABest Wishes=0A=0A=0AEloy=0A=0AOn Dec 16, 2006, at 7:36 PM, Alexander Batov wrote:=0A> On Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:50 PM=0A> Eloy Cruz wrote:=0A>=0A>> ... Back in 2003 I asked everyone about more music or more surviving=0A>> Spanish=0A>> citterns or paintings and I could find nothing ...=0A>=0A> Citterns are mentioned (even with detailing of materials they are =0A> made of=0A> et! c) in a number of late-16th century Spanish accounts which J. =0A> Romanillos=0A> published in his latest book "The Vihuela da Mano and the Spanish =0A> Guitars"=0A> (2002). Can provide a list if desired ...=0A>=0A> There is also this: http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/art/ =0A> anjo.html from=0A> Andrew Hartig's " Cittern Picture Gallery" which can also be a =0A> fairly close=0A> approximation to what the cittern looked like in the contemporary =0A> Spain. One=0A> particular detail of this instrument seems rather remarkable to me: =0A> the way=0A> the strings are fastened at the bottom edge of the soundboard - a =0A> feature=0A> somewhat similar to modern Portuguese violas where strings are =0A> pinned to=0A> what looks like a 'normal' bridge and then pass over a movable =0A> saddle-like=0A> thing in front of it.=0A>=0A> Alexander=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ATo get on or off this list see list information at=0Ahttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html=0A=0A_! _=0ADo You Yahoo!?! =0APoco spazio e tanto spam? Yahoo! Mail ti protegge dallo spam e ti da tanto spazio gratuito per i tuoi file e i messaggi =0Ahttp://mail.yahoo.it --
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
About two weeks ago I found these two 1784 engravings on Ebay. They're quite interesting, but I couldn't buy them(it was night here), so I'll be able to show you only the pictures shown for the bid-quite little- but try to take a look at the small instrument on the left below the psalterium on the first image.=0AAndrea=0Ahttp://1784copperplateengraving.blogspot.com/=0A=0A=0A=0A- Messaggio originale -=0ADa: Eloy Cruz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>=0AA: vihuela =0AInviato: Domenica 17 dicembre 2006, 3:54:37=0AOggetto: [VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands=0A=0A=0AThanks a lot, Alexander=0A=0AThis is the only cittern illustration I can remember apart from those =0Ain Minguet and Codice Saldivar 2, and is a very interesting one. I'll =0Atry again to get the Romanillos book. Last time the web site was =0Aapparently down.=0A=0A=0ABest Wishes=0A=0A=0AEloy=0A=0AOn Dec 16, 2006, at 7:36 PM, Alexander Batov wrote:=0A> On Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:5! 0 PM=0A> Eloy Cruz wrote:=0A>=0A>> ... Back in 2003 I asked everyone about more music or more surviving=0A>> Spanish=0A>> citterns or paintings and I could find nothing ...=0A>=0A> Citterns are mentioned (even with detailing of materials they are =0A> made of=0A> etc) in a number of late-16th century Spanish accounts which J. =0A> Romanillos=0A> published in his latest book "The Vihuela da Mano and the Spanish =0A> Guitars"=0A> (2002). Can provide a list if desired ...=0A>=0A> There is also this: http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/art/ =0A> anjo.html from=0A> Andrew Hartig's " Cittern Picture Gallery" which can also be a =0A> fairly close=0A> approximation to what the cittern looked like in the contemporary =0A> Spain. One=0A> particular detail of this instrument seems rather remarkable to me: =0A> the way=0A> the strings are fastened at the bottom edge of the soundboard - a =0A> feature=0A> somewhat similar to modern Portuguese violas where strings are =0A> pinn! ed to=0A> what looks like a 'normal' bridge and then pass over! a movab le =0A> saddle-like=0A> thing in front of it.=0A>=0A> Alexander=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ATo get on or off this list see list information at=0Ahttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html=0A=0A__=0ADo You Yahoo!?=0APoco spazio e tanto spam? Yahoo! Mail ti protegge dallo spam e ti da tanto spazio gratuito per i tuoi file e i messaggi =0Ahttp://mail.yahoo.it --
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
Thanks a lot, Alexander This is the only cittern illustration I can remember apart from those in Minguet and Codice Saldivar 2, and is a very interesting one. I'll try again to get the Romanillos book. Last time the web site was apparently down. Best Wishes Eloy On Dec 16, 2006, at 7:36 PM, Alexander Batov wrote: > On Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:50 PM > Eloy Cruz wrote: > >> ... Back in 2003 I asked everyone about more music or more surviving >> Spanish >> citterns or paintings and I could find nothing ... > > Citterns are mentioned (even with detailing of materials they are > made of > etc) in a number of late-16th century Spanish accounts which J. > Romanillos > published in his latest book "The Vihuela da Mano and the Spanish > Guitars" > (2002). Can provide a list if desired ... > > There is also this: http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/art/ > anjo.html from > Andrew Hartig's " Cittern Picture Gallery" which can also be a > fairly close > approximation to what the cittern looked like in the contemporary > Spain. One > particular detail of this instrument seems rather remarkable to me: > the way > the strings are fastened at the bottom edge of the soundboard - a > feature > somewhat similar to modern Portuguese violas where strings are > pinned to > what looks like a 'normal' bridge and then pass over a movable > saddle-like > thing in front of it. > > Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
On Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:50 PM Eloy Cruz wrote: > ... Back in 2003 I asked everyone about more music or more surviving > Spanish > citterns or paintings and I could find nothing ... Citterns are mentioned (even with detailing of materials they are made of etc) in a number of late-16th century Spanish accounts which J. Romanillos published in his latest book "The Vihuela da Mano and the Spanish Guitars" (2002). Can provide a list if desired ... There is also this: http://www.cittern.theaterofmusic.com/art/anjo.html from Andrew Hartig's " Cittern Picture Gallery" which can also be a fairly close approximation to what the cittern looked like in the contemporary Spain. One particular detail of this instrument seems rather remarkable to me: the way the strings are fastened at the bottom edge of the soundboard - a feature somewhat similar to modern Portuguese violas where strings are pinned to what looks like a 'normal' bridge and then pass over a movable saddle-like thing in front of it. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands in the 18th century - update
Here are two photos of the V&A instrument (which the museum claims were used in one-man bands in the 18th century) and Doc Rossi has sent a photo from the Hague museum of a strikingly similar instrument. The Hague instrument has a set of drawings which suggest it is an original instrument. Does the V&A instrument really look like a hodge-podge as Eloy suggests? http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/Spanishcittern/ Anyway, these instruments seem to be wholly unrelated to the ones that figured in Spanish one-man bands as described by Beryl Kenyon de Pascual. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
"Very odd" is maybe the understatement of the year. On Dec 14, 2006, at 4:33 PM, Monica Hall wrote: > Actually the instrument is very odd! > > Apparently there were travelling musicians in 18th century Spain > who played > several instruments simultaneously - mostly percussion ones. > > This "cittern/guitar" has 4 wire strings which are attached by > brass pins to > the top of a narrow unfretted neck. They run over a bridge to 4 > wooden > tuning pegs located in the ribs at the base of the inst. - upside down > arrangement. It has a long iron plectrum attached to a pivot at > the top of > the neck! Also a hook shaped handle on the back. > > The article suggests that the inst. was purpose built so that it > could be > strummed without using the fingers. The hook shaped handle would > allow it > to be attached to a belt or sling but it is also possible to put > the hand > through the hook leaving the fingers free to move. Some how the > lectrum > could be operated by the head or some other part of one's anatomy > so that it > would be possible to strum - with no hands - if the strings were > tuned to a > common chord. > > It is obviously quite different from the standard cittern or > English guitar. > > Monica > > > - Original Message - > From: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 8:35 PM > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands > > >> Monica Hall wrote: >>> ----- Original Message - >>> From: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 7:57 PM >>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands >>> >>> I have a copy of the article - I got it after Eloy and I had both >>> seen >>> this instrument in the V & A - we were both interested in >>> citterns at >>> the time. >>> >>> The New York instrument has four wire strings it looks a bit >>> odd.The >>> article is only four pages so I could send you a copy if you want >>> one. >>> >>> Monica >>> >>> >> Apologies to Doc for misinterpreting him! >> >> Well, I'd be interested to see the article. But the most basic >> details >> would do. >> >> So instrument 89.4.1039 really is a cittern? But you say it looks >> a bit >> odd. And having just four strings is a bit odd. I wonder of it is >> untypical in other ways too. Do you think this article is the >> V&A's source >> for the notes on the Spanish cittern in their collection? (The New >> York >> instrument seems rather different from the V&A one.) >> >> Has Beryl Kenyon de Pascual revealed a tradition of cittern >> playing in >> 18th century Spain that most people (well me, anyway) have never >> heard of? >> Presumably an oral tradition - no surviving music. Is their visual >> evidence in paintings - or just mentions here and there? >> >> It's odd that the V&A note accompanying the instrument definitely >> mentions 'virtuosi' - not merely 'players'. >> >> And what were the other instruments that these players played >> simultaneously with their citterns? (Conjures up some rather >> ludicrous >> images - which bit of the body was playing the other instrument?!) >> >> Stuart >>> >>>> I posted a question on the lute list and the cittern list a >>>> couple of >>>> weeks ago. I'll just try here too! >>>> >>>> In the V&A Museum in London there is a note accompanying an 18th >>>> cittern. The cittern (c.1780) is guitar-shaped. The note says that >>>> instruments like this one were played by Spanish virtuosi, along >>>> with >>>> other instruments, in the manner of a one-man band. >>>> >>>> No one seemed to know anything about this on the other lists. >>>> Doc Rossi >>>> thinks the instrument reminds him of later German instruments. >>>> >>>> Maybe these guitar-shaped citterns have been misidentified as >>>> ordinary >>>> guitars. So: has anyone head of 18th century Spanish one-man bands >>>> including guitars(citterns)? >>>> >>>> There is an article by Beryl Kenyon de Pascual: 'The One-Man >>>> Band in >>>> 18th Century Spain and Instrument No 89.4.1039 in the Metropolitan >>>> Museum of Art, New York'.' It's in the Journal of the American >>>> Musical >>>> Instrument Society 20 (1994). I don't know what sort of >>>> instruments are >>>> discussed in this paper and I don't really want to go to the >>>> trouble of >>>> getting it if it's not about plucked instruments. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
Actually the instrument is very odd! Apparently there were travelling musicians in 18th century Spain who played several instruments simultaneously - mostly percussion ones. This "cittern/guitar" has 4 wire strings which are attached by brass pins to the top of a narrow unfretted neck. They run over a bridge to 4 wooden tuning pegs located in the ribs at the base of the inst. - upside down arrangement. It has a long iron plectrum attached to a pivot at the top of the neck! Also a hook shaped handle on the back. The article suggests that the inst. was purpose built so that it could be strummed without using the fingers. The hook shaped handle would allow it to be attached to a belt or sling but it is also possible to put the hand through the hook leaving the fingers free to move. Some how the lectrum could be operated by the head or some other part of one's anatomy so that it would be possible to strum - with no hands - if the strings were tuned to a common chord. It is obviously quite different from the standard cittern or English guitar. Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands > Monica Hall wrote: >> - Original Message - >> From: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; >> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 7:57 PM >> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands >> >> I have a copy of the article - I got it after Eloy and I had both seen >> this instrument in the V & A - we were both interested in citterns at >> the time. >> >> The New York instrument has four wire strings it looks a bit odd.The >> article is only four pages so I could send you a copy if you want one. >> >> Monica >> >> > Apologies to Doc for misinterpreting him! > > Well, I'd be interested to see the article. But the most basic details > would do. > > So instrument 89.4.1039 really is a cittern? But you say it looks a bit > odd. And having just four strings is a bit odd. I wonder of it is > untypical in other ways too. Do you think this article is the V&A's source > for the notes on the Spanish cittern in their collection? (The New York > instrument seems rather different from the V&A one.) > > Has Beryl Kenyon de Pascual revealed a tradition of cittern playing in > 18th century Spain that most people (well me, anyway) have never heard of? > Presumably an oral tradition - no surviving music. Is their visual > evidence in paintings - or just mentions here and there? > > It's odd that the V&A note accompanying the instrument definitely > mentions 'virtuosi' - not merely 'players'. > > And what were the other instruments that these players played > simultaneously with their citterns? (Conjures up some rather ludicrous > images - which bit of the body was playing the other instrument?!) > > Stuart >> >>> I posted a question on the lute list and the cittern list a couple of >>> weeks ago. I'll just try here too! >>> >>> In the V&A Museum in London there is a note accompanying an 18th >>> cittern. The cittern (c.1780) is guitar-shaped. The note says that >>> instruments like this one were played by Spanish virtuosi, along with >>> other instruments, in the manner of a one-man band. >>> >>> No one seemed to know anything about this on the other lists. Doc Rossi >>> thinks the instrument reminds him of later German instruments. >>> >>> Maybe these guitar-shaped citterns have been misidentified as ordinary >>> guitars. So: has anyone head of 18th century Spanish one-man bands >>> including guitars(citterns)? >>> >>> There is an article by Beryl Kenyon de Pascual: 'The One-Man Band in >>> 18th Century Spain and Instrument No 89.4.1039 in the Metropolitan >>> Museum of Art, New York'.' It's in the Journal of the American Musical >>> Instrument Society 20 (1994). I don't know what sort of instruments are >>> discussed in this paper and I don't really want to go to the trouble of >>> getting it if it's not about plucked instruments. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >> >
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
At 12:53 AM 12/14/2006, Eloy Cruz wrote: >Eugene, the book you mention is Pablo Minguet y Yrol's Reglas y advertencias >generales..., Madrid, 1752-1754. Thank you, Eloy. I guess I won't have to look it up. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
I suppose people know this source: http://www.rem.ufpr.br/remi.html a few interesting articles about early music in Central and South America. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
Stuart, maybe you could also post that scan I sent you of the instrument in The Hague. I also have technical drawings of that instrument, and it is all original according to them. Doc On Dec 14, 2006, at 6:53 AM, Eloy Cruz wrote: > Dear list > > Eugene, the book you mention is Pablo Minguet y Yrol's Reglas y > advertencias > generales..., Madrid, 1752-1754. > > Stuart, thanks for the picture of the instrument. Looks like it has > been > heavily restored, or perhaps, modified. The bridge could be that of > a viola, > cello, or something, and the neck, bridge and head look different > than the > body. The raised fingerboard, looks like that of a modern guitar, > and the > head, which is the only feature that resembles a cittern, could > come from a > cittern kit. I wonder if the V&A has info about the date when the > instrument > was restored and who made it. There could be pictures of the > instrument > before that restoration was made. None of the instruments in > Minguet have > "citternheads", all of them have guitar-like heads. > > > Regards > > > eloy > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
Eloy Cruz wrote: > > Doc Rossi is right, the catalog entry he copies is for an instrument with > Museum No.: 224-1882, but the note next to the instrument calls it a cittern > and has the Spanish virtuosi story. I saw the instrument in december 2002. I > think I remember that Monica went to the museum and asked the curator about > the instrument, but I don't remember if she actually did it... > Very interesting. I was at the V&A a couple of weeks ago and I put up a web page of the instrument and the note that accompanies it here: http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/Spanishcittern/ I'm just about to borrow a copy of the V&A catalogue for 1968 from my local library. I forgot to note the instrument number as it is now (two weeks ago) but I think I've got the correct instrument and the accompanying note... including what you call 'the Spanish virtuoso story.' Do I detect a large dose of scepticism here? I'm both amused and a bit shocked. It's one thing (and understandable) for a museum to get some point of detail wrong but to offer a 'cock and bull' story (a complete fantasy) is of quite another order! Stuart > The only music for cittern in the Hispanic world that I know is the Codice > Saldivar 2 in Mexico City and another 18th century manuscript sold at > Sotheby's long ago, Monica told me about this ms. > > Back in 2003 I asked everyone about more music or more surviving Spanish > citterns or paintings and I could find nothing... There's of course Minguet. > There's a later notice (c. 1840) of someone playing a cittern (citara) in > Mexico City > > > Best wishes > > > Eloy Cruz > > > The V&A catalogue (1968) entry for this instrument says: > > 11/9 English guitar. English: late eighteenth century. Fig. 75. > No Label visible. > Very unusual waisted model in a vaguely Spanish guitar format. > Arched back of sycamore. Slightly arched belly of pine with > simulated purfling in black ink and an open soundhole. Ivory hitch > studs at base of body. Ebony fingerboard with twelve brass frets and > four capotasto holes. Pegbox with a pyramid-shaped rectangular > finial. Normal English guitar stringing, the last two courses overspun. > Dimensions: Length total 69; belly 30; Width of bouts 20, 18, 22. > Depth of sides 5.8. String length 32.5 (very short for an English > guitar, though of the same order as that of Perry's cither viol, 2/8). > > Doc > > Doc Rossi > Element Music > Le Grand Domaine > Boulevard des Dames 26 > 13002 Marseille > France > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
At 05:50 PM 12/13/2006, Eloy Cruz wrote: >Dear Stuart and List > >Doc Rossi is right, the catalog entry he copies is for an instrument with >Museum No.: 224-1882, but the note next to the instrument calls it a cittern >and has the Spanish virtuosi story. I saw the instrument in december 2002. I >think I remember that Monica went to the museum and asked the curator about >the instrument, but I don't remember if she actually did it... > >The only music for cittern in the Hispanic world that I know is the Codice >Saldivar 2 in Mexico City and another 18th century manuscript sold at >Sotheby's long ago, Monica told me about this ms. > >Back in 2003 I asked everyone about more music or more surviving Spanish >citterns or paintings and I could find nothing... There's of course Minguet. >There's a later notice (c. 1840) of someone playing a cittern (citara) in >Mexico City Somebody could certainly argue that things like bandurria and laud are cittern kin. There were 5-course incarnations of bandurria in the 18th c. I know there was a bandurria pictured on the cover of some 18th-c. Spanish publication along with guitars, viols, etc; I can picture it in my mind quite clearly, but I can't put my finger on the title. I'll try to look it up if anybody cares. ...And then there is the guitarra of Portugal. As far as I know, consensus still is that it came to be in its modern form in the 18th c. under at least a little influence from the English guitar/guittar. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
I have done a little at the Met and have some notes and photos on the mandolin relatives and (to a much lesser extent) the guitars in their collection. When I'm home from the office, I'll check this catalogue number against my notes, but I suspect this was not an instrument I inspected or photographed. I'm sure I could dig up this article, but I don't have it on hand. Can anybody share a photo of 89.4.1039 via direct e-mail? Thanks, Eugene At 03:35 PM 12/13/2006, Stuart Walsh wrote: >Monica Hall wrote: > > - Original Message - > > From: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 7:57 PM > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands > > > > I have a copy of the article - I got it after Eloy and I had both seen > this > > instrument in the V & A - we were both interested in citterns at the time. > > > > The New York instrument has four wire strings it looks a bit odd.The > > article is only four pages so I could send you a copy if you want one. > > > > Monica > > > > >Apologies to Doc for misinterpreting him! > >Well, I'd be interested to see the article. But the most basic details >would do. > >So instrument 89.4.1039 really is a cittern? But you say it looks a bit >odd. And having just four strings is a bit odd. I wonder of it is >untypical in other ways too. Do you think this article is the V&A's >source for the notes on the Spanish cittern in their collection? (The >New York instrument seems rather different from the V&A one.) > >Has Beryl Kenyon de Pascual revealed a tradition of cittern playing in >18th century Spain that most people (well me, anyway) have never heard of? >Presumably an oral tradition - no surviving music. Is their visual >evidence in paintings - or just mentions here and there? > >It's odd that the V&A note accompanying the instrument definitely >mentions 'virtuosi' - not merely 'players'. > >And what were the other instruments that these players played >simultaneously with their citterns? (Conjures up some rather ludicrous >images - which bit of the body was playing the other instrument?!) > >Stuart > > > >> I posted a question on the lute list and the cittern list a couple of > >> weeks ago. I'll just try here too! > >> > >> In the V&A Museum in London there is a note accompanying an 18th > >> cittern. The cittern (c.1780) is guitar-shaped. The note says that > >> instruments like this one were played by Spanish virtuosi, along with > >> other instruments, in the manner of a one-man band. > >> > >> No one seemed to know anything about this on the other lists. Doc Rossi > >> thinks the instrument reminds him of later German instruments. > >> > >> Maybe these guitar-shaped citterns have been misidentified as ordinary > >> guitars. So: has anyone head of 18th century Spanish one-man bands > >> including guitars(citterns)? > >> > >> There is an article by Beryl Kenyon de Pascual: 'The One-Man Band in > >> 18th Century Spain and Instrument No 89.4.1039 in the Metropolitan > >> Museum of Art, New York'.' It's in the Journal of the American Musical > >> Instrument Society 20 (1994). I don't know what sort of instruments are > >> discussed in this paper and I don't really want to go to the trouble of > >> getting it if it's not about plucked instruments. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
Monica Hall wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 7:57 PM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands > > I have a copy of the article - I got it after Eloy and I had both seen this > instrument in the V & A - we were both interested in citterns at the time. > > The New York instrument has four wire strings it looks a bit odd.The > article is only four pages so I could send you a copy if you want one. > > Monica > > Apologies to Doc for misinterpreting him! Well, I'd be interested to see the article. But the most basic details would do. So instrument 89.4.1039 really is a cittern? But you say it looks a bit odd. And having just four strings is a bit odd. I wonder of it is untypical in other ways too. Do you think this article is the V&A's source for the notes on the Spanish cittern in their collection? (The New York instrument seems rather different from the V&A one.) Has Beryl Kenyon de Pascual revealed a tradition of cittern playing in 18th century Spain that most people (well me, anyway) have never heard of? Presumably an oral tradition - no surviving music. Is their visual evidence in paintings - or just mentions here and there? It's odd that the V&A note accompanying the instrument definitely mentions 'virtuosi' - not merely 'players'. And what were the other instruments that these players played simultaneously with their citterns? (Conjures up some rather ludicrous images - which bit of the body was playing the other instrument?!) Stuart > >> I posted a question on the lute list and the cittern list a couple of >> weeks ago. I'll just try here too! >> >> In the V&A Museum in London there is a note accompanying an 18th >> cittern. The cittern (c.1780) is guitar-shaped. The note says that >> instruments like this one were played by Spanish virtuosi, along with >> other instruments, in the manner of a one-man band. >> >> No one seemed to know anything about this on the other lists. Doc Rossi >> thinks the instrument reminds him of later German instruments. >> >> Maybe these guitar-shaped citterns have been misidentified as ordinary >> guitars. So: has anyone head of 18th century Spanish one-man bands >> including guitars(citterns)? >> >> There is an article by Beryl Kenyon de Pascual: 'The One-Man Band in >> 18th Century Spain and Instrument No 89.4.1039 in the Metropolitan >> Museum of Art, New York'.' It's in the Journal of the American Musical >> Instrument Society 20 (1994). I don't know what sort of instruments are >> discussed in this paper and I don't really want to go to the trouble of >> getting it if it's not about plucked instruments. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
- Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 7:57 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands I have a copy of the article - I got it after Eloy and I had both seen this instrument in the V & A - we were both interested in citterns at the time. The New York instrument has four wire strings it looks a bit odd.The article is only four pages so I could send you a copy if you want one. Monica >I posted a question on the lute list and the cittern list a couple of > weeks ago. I'll just try here too! > > In the V&A Museum in London there is a note accompanying an 18th > cittern. The cittern (c.1780) is guitar-shaped. The note says that > instruments like this one were played by Spanish virtuosi, along with > other instruments, in the manner of a one-man band. > > No one seemed to know anything about this on the other lists. Doc Rossi > thinks the instrument reminds him of later German instruments. > > Maybe these guitar-shaped citterns have been misidentified as ordinary > guitars. So: has anyone head of 18th century Spanish one-man bands > including guitars(citterns)? > > There is an article by Beryl Kenyon de Pascual: 'The One-Man Band in > 18th Century Spain and Instrument No 89.4.1039 in the Metropolitan > Museum of Art, New York'.' It's in the Journal of the American Musical > Instrument Society 20 (1994). I don't know what sort of instruments are > discussed in this paper and I don't really want to go to the trouble of > getting it if it's not about plucked instruments. > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
On Dec 13, 2006, at 8:57 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote: > I posted a question on the lute list and the cittern list a couple of > weeks ago. I'll just try here too! > > In the V&A Museum in London there is a note accompanying an 18th > cittern. The cittern (c.1780) is guitar-shaped. The note says that > instruments like this one were played by Spanish virtuosi, along with > other instruments, in the manner of a one-man band. > > No one seemed to know anything about this on the other lists. Doc > Rossi > thinks the instrument reminds him of later German instruments. That's not exactly what I meant, but who cares. > > Maybe these guitar-shaped citterns have been misidentified as ordinary > guitars. So: has anyone head of 18th century Spanish one-man bands > including guitars(citterns)? > > There is an article by Beryl Kenyon de Pascual: 'The One-Man Band in > 18th Century Spain and Instrument No 89.4.1039 in the Metropolitan > Museum of Art, New York'.' It's in the Journal of the American Musical > Instrument Society 20 (1994). I don't know what sort of instruments > are > discussed in this paper and I don't really want to go to the > trouble of > getting it if it's not about plucked instruments. The V&A catalogue (1968) entry for this instrument says: 11/9 English guitar. English: late eighteenth century. Fig. 75. No Label visible. Very unusual waisted model in a vaguely Spanish guitar format. Arched back of sycamore. Slightly arched belly of pine with simulated purfling in black ink and an open soundhole. Ivory hitch studs at base of body. Ebony fingerboard with twelve brass frets and four capotasto holes. Pegbox with a pyramid-shaped rectangular finial. Normal English guitar stringing, the last two courses overspun. Dimensions: Length total 69; belly 30; Width of bouts 20, 18, 22. Depth of sides 5.8. String length 32.5 (very short for an English guitar, though of the same order as that of Perry's cither viol, 2/8). Doc Doc Rossi Element Music Le Grand Domaine Boulevard des Dames 26 13002 Marseille France www.cetrapublishing.com www.magnatune.com/artists/docrossi.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: (+33) (0)4 91 52 90 45 cell: (+33) (0)6 80 01 58 47 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Spanish one-man bands
I posted a question on the lute list and the cittern list a couple of weeks ago. I'll just try here too! In the V&A Museum in London there is a note accompanying an 18th cittern. The cittern (c.1780) is guitar-shaped. The note says that instruments like this one were played by Spanish virtuosi, along with other instruments, in the manner of a one-man band. No one seemed to know anything about this on the other lists. Doc Rossi thinks the instrument reminds him of later German instruments. Maybe these guitar-shaped citterns have been misidentified as ordinary guitars. So: has anyone head of 18th century Spanish one-man bands including guitars(citterns)? There is an article by Beryl Kenyon de Pascual: 'The One-Man Band in 18th Century Spain and Instrument No 89.4.1039 in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York'.' It's in the Journal of the American Musical Instrument Society 20 (1994). I don't know what sort of instruments are discussed in this paper and I don't really want to go to the trouble of getting it if it's not about plucked instruments. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
