[VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist...
Just so. As said, we need to be wary about making assumptions M --- On Sun, 28/9/08, Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist... > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: "Vihuelalist" > Date: Sunday, 28 September, 2008, 8:57 AM > Well ...Foscarini clearly describes himself a a lutenist so > may not have > played the theorbo. > > Corbetta quite emphatically states in the preface to La > guitarre royale that > he has never played the lute and doesn't know a single > chord on the > instrument... > > The book De Vise published in 1716 has the title > "Piece de theorbe et de > luth" although they are all in staff notation. I > think there are separate > sections but don't have the book to hand and may be > wrong about that. > > Bartolotti's Continuo book is apparently for a > theorboed lute without > re-entrant course rather than theorbo but that doen't > really tell us what > instruments he played... > > Monica > > - Original Message - > From: "Martyn Hodgson" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" > > Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 7:53 AM > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist... > > > > I don't know for sure - anything is, of course, > possible but that by no > means implies it was the usual practice ad I think we need > to be very > careful of making such assumptions. > > For example, pieces for the lute with the name de Visee do > indeed survive, > but the suggestion has been made that these are > arrangements of his theorbo > works made by the Ms compiler (eg de Saizeny). Certainly > they exhibit few > idiomatic Dm lute features (as, say, the works of his > contemporaries Logy, > Mouton, Gallot, Bittner, Von Radolt, et al) and are closer > in texture to the > arrangements made by St Luc. > > In short, I'm not at all sure it's right to assume > that the Old Ones played > a range of plucked instruments as we try to do today. I > know of no evidence, > for example, that the most illustrious one, Corbetta, > played the lute or > even the theorbo. > > Martyn > > > --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Monica Hall > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist... > > To: "Martyn Hodgson" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" > > > Date: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 9:00 AM > > Well - Foscarini says that he is a lutenist by > profession > > and was employed > > as one in Ancona and at the court in the Spanish > > Netherlands. Bartalotti is > > mentioned as a theorbo player in the 1660s - but does > > that exclude the possibility that he played the lute > as > > well? De Visee's > > music > > survives in versions for lute I believe. > > > > I would guess that these people played a range of > plucked > > stringed > > instruments - as they do today. > > > > Monica > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Martyn Hodgson" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Michael Gillespie" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Monica Hall" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" > > > > Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 8:06 AM > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist... > > > > > > > > Were these actually lutenists are rather theorbo > players? - > > not the same. > > > > MH > > > > > > --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Monica Hall > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist... > > > To: "Michael Gillespie" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" > > > > > Date: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 8:04 AM > > > Another topic which needs a book to be written. > > > > > > Many 17th century guitarists were actually > lutenists > > by > > > profession > > > (Foscarini, Bartolotti, De Visee to name but > three) > > and > > > whatever training > > > they had would have been on the lute. I think > this > > may > > > have been on a one > > > to one basis rather than in established &g
[VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist...
Well ...Foscarini clearly describes himself a a lutenist so may not have played the theorbo. Corbetta quite emphatically states in the preface to La guitarre royale that he has never played the lute and doesn't know a single chord on the instrument... The book De Vise published in 1716 has the title "Piece de theorbe et de luth" although they are all in staff notation. I think there are separate sections but don't have the book to hand and may be wrong about that. Bartolotti's Continuo book is apparently for a theorboed lute without re-entrant course rather than theorbo but that doen't really tell us what instruments he played... Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist... I don't know for sure - anything is, of course, possible but that by no means implies it was the usual practice ad I think we need to be very careful of making such assumptions. For example, pieces for the lute with the name de Visee do indeed survive, but the suggestion has been made that these are arrangements of his theorbo works made by the Ms compiler (eg de Saizeny). Certainly they exhibit few idiomatic Dm lute features (as, say, the works of his contemporaries Logy, Mouton, Gallot, Bittner, Von Radolt, et al) and are closer in texture to the arrangements made by St Luc. In short, I'm not at all sure it's right to assume that the Old Ones played a range of plucked instruments as we try to do today. I know of no evidence, for example, that the most illustrious one, Corbetta, played the lute or even the theorbo. Martyn --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist... To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 9:00 AM Well - Foscarini says that he is a lutenist by profession and was employed as one in Ancona and at the court in the Spanish Netherlands. Bartalotti is mentioned as a theorbo player in the 1660s - but does that exclude the possibility that he played the lute as well? De Visee's music survives in versions for lute I believe. I would guess that these people played a range of plucked stringed instruments - as they do today. Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Gillespie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist... Were these actually lutenists are rather theorbo players? - not the same. MH --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist... > To: "Michael Gillespie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" > Date: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 8:04 AM > Another topic which needs a book to be written. > > Many 17th century guitarists were actually lutenists by > profession > (Foscarini, Bartolotti, De Visee to name but three) and > whatever training > they had would have been on the lute. I think this may > have been on a one > to one basis rather than in established conservatoires such > as we have > today. > > Corbetta however seems to imply in the preface to La > Guitarre royale that he > was self taught! > > Monica > > > - Original Message - > From: "Michael Gillespie" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Vihuelalist" > > Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 10:47 PM > Subject: [VIHUELA] The Learned Guitarist... > > > > I was wondering... when (with who) did study of the > early guitar become > > more serious. Sanz used spanish folk melodies where > as de Visse was the > > "royal guitarist," thats a big gap. I > imagine that the great vihuelists > > and lutenists of the day went through > "conservatory" training rather > > than just picking one up and beating it to death, > what about the > > guitarists? > > > > -- > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist...
I don't know for sure - anything is, of course, possible but that by no means implies it was the usual practice ad I think we need to be very careful of making such assumptions. For example, pieces for the lute with the name de Visee do indeed survive, but the suggestion has been made that these are arrangements of his theorbo works made by the Ms compiler (eg de Saizeny). Certainly they exhibit few idiomatic Dm lute features (as, say, the works of his contemporaries Logy, Mouton, Gallot, Bittner, Von Radolt, et al) and are closer in texture to the arrangements made by St Luc. In short, I'm not at all sure it's right to assume that the Old Ones played a range of plucked instruments as we try to do today. I know of no evidence, for example, that the most illustrious one, Corbetta, played the lute or even the theorbo. Martyn --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist... > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" > Date: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 9:00 AM > Well - Foscarini says that he is a lutenist by profession > and was employed > as one in Ancona and at the court in the Spanish > Netherlands. Bartalotti is > mentioned as a theorbo player in the 1660s - but does > that exclude the possibility that he played the lute as > well? De Visee's > music > survives in versions for lute I believe. > > I would guess that these people played a range of plucked > stringed > instruments - as they do today. > > Monica > > - Original Message - > From: "Martyn Hodgson" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Michael Gillespie" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Monica Hall" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" > > Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 8:06 AM > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist... > > > > Were these actually lutenists are rather theorbo players? - > not the same. > > MH > > > --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Monica Hall > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist... > > To: "Michael Gillespie" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" > > > Date: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 8:04 AM > > Another topic which needs a book to be written. > > > > Many 17th century guitarists were actually lutenists > by > > profession > > (Foscarini, Bartolotti, De Visee to name but three) > and > > whatever training > > they had would have been on the lute. I think this > may > > have been on a one > > to one basis rather than in established conservatoires > such > > as we have > > today. > > > > Corbetta however seems to imply in the preface to La > > Guitarre royale that he > > was self taught! > > > > Monica > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Michael Gillespie" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Vihuelalist" > > > > Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 10:47 PM > > Subject: [VIHUELA] The Learned Guitarist... > > > > > > > I was wondering... when (with who) did study of > the > > early guitar become > > > more serious. Sanz used spanish folk melodies > where > > as de Visse was the > > > "royal guitarist," thats a big gap. I > > imagine that the great vihuelists > > > and lutenists of the day went through > > "conservatory" training rather > > > than just picking one up and beating it to > death, > > what about the > > > guitarists? > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information > at > > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist...
Well - Foscarini says that he is a lutenist by profession and was employed as one in Ancona and at the court in the Spanish Netherlands. Bartalotti is mentioned as a theorbo player in the 1660s - but does that exclude the possibility that he played the lute as well? De Visee's music survives in versions for lute I believe. I would guess that these people played a range of plucked stringed instruments - as they do today. Monica - Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Gillespie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist... Were these actually lutenists are rather theorbo players? - not the same. MH --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist... To: "Michael Gillespie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 8:04 AM Another topic which needs a book to be written. Many 17th century guitarists were actually lutenists by profession (Foscarini, Bartolotti, De Visee to name but three) and whatever training they had would have been on the lute. I think this may have been on a one to one basis rather than in established conservatoires such as we have today. Corbetta however seems to imply in the preface to La Guitarre royale that he was self taught! Monica - Original Message - From: "Michael Gillespie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 10:47 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] The Learned Guitarist... > I was wondering... when (with who) did study of the early guitar become > more serious. Sanz used spanish folk melodies where as de Visse was the > "royal guitarist," thats a big gap. I imagine that the great vihuelists > and lutenists of the day went through "conservatory" training rather > than just picking one up and beating it to death, what about the > guitarists? > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist...
Were these actually lutenists are rather theorbo players? - not the same. MH --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist... > To: "Michael Gillespie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" > Date: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 8:04 AM > Another topic which needs a book to be written. > > Many 17th century guitarists were actually lutenists by > profession > (Foscarini, Bartolotti, De Visee to name but three) and > whatever training > they had would have been on the lute. I think this may > have been on a one > to one basis rather than in established conservatoires such > as we have > today. > > Corbetta however seems to imply in the preface to La > Guitarre royale that he > was self taught! > > Monica > > > - Original Message - > From: "Michael Gillespie" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Vihuelalist" > > Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 10:47 PM > Subject: [VIHUELA] The Learned Guitarist... > > > > I was wondering... when (with who) did study of the > early guitar become > > more serious. Sanz used spanish folk melodies where > as de Visse was the > > "royal guitarist," thats a big gap. I > imagine that the great vihuelists > > and lutenists of the day went through > "conservatory" training rather > > than just picking one up and beating it to death, > what about the > > guitarists? > > > > -- > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist...
Another topic which needs a book to be written. Many 17th century guitarists were actually lutenists by profession (Foscarini, Bartolotti, De Visee to name but three) and whatever training they had would have been on the lute. I think this may have been on a one to one basis rather than in established conservatoires such as we have today. Corbetta however seems to imply in the preface to La Guitarre royale that he was self taught! Monica - Original Message - From: "Michael Gillespie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 10:47 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] The Learned Guitarist... I was wondering... when (with who) did study of the early guitar become more serious. Sanz used spanish folk melodies where as de Visse was the "royal guitarist," thats a big gap. I imagine that the great vihuelists and lutenists of the day went through "conservatory" training rather than just picking one up and beating it to death, what about the guitarists? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: The Learned Guitarist...
What's not 'serious' about folk music? Rob 2008/9/26 Michael Gillespie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I was wondering... when (with who) did study of the early guitar become more serious. Sanz used spanish folk melodies where as de Visse was the "royal guitarist," thats a big gap. I imagine that the great vihuelists and lutenists of the day went through "conservatory" training rather than just picking one up and beating it to death, what about the guitarists? -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
