[VIHUELA] Re: a little Granata experiment
Dear Stuart,. I think it would have been usual to employ a small chamber organ if any realisation was thought necessary rather than the bowed bass trying to realise the harmonies. It need not be mentioned on the title page to be implied since usage was so general. More importantly tho' , the long notes you mention at the end of some pieces (especially allemandes) are common in instrumental music at the time; period orchestras performing this music don't feel it necessary to add flourishes (the most is a lead back figure in the bass by the continuo or, especially in French music a 'roulade'). Indeed, the rhetoric is more to do with the end of a statement or paragraph of verse where the voice has a natural fall and rest. As previously suggested, I'm sure the higher octave setting of a few passages is simply to secure greater definition of the line. And, of course, depending on how the 4th course is set up one could find the melody being under the 'bass' (as in bar 4/5). More interesting, I think, from a continuo player's perspective is that in bar 4 the guitar has an E in its 'bass' where the actual bass part has a G (unfigured of course but would therefore be a 6). I suspect the underlying chord here is a plain Gmajor, rather than a first Em inversion) but it's just these little additions which can tell us so much about the latitude often allowed by practicising musicians. rgds Martyn --- On Mon, 11/4/11, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: a little Granata experiment To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 11 April, 2011, 21:59 On 11/04/2011 09:01, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Regarding the held notes at the conclusion of each half, I think this suggests that these pieces were in fact conceived primarily for performance with the outer bowed instruments mentioned in the title - so that there would be no need to perpetuate the sound over a full (or large part of) long bar by such devices. Although bowed instruments seem to be indicated by the title page (violino e viola), the bass line is lightly figured. Maybe the violist would have added some harmonies. Many of the allemandas have these long empty bars at the end of each half. Even bowed, or on another sustaining instrument, they could sound as is musical activity has temporarily ceased! So plucked instrument strums and/or twiddles (as you suggest Falconieri did) is maybe what is in order. It's interesting that Granata does some 'octave-hopping' in the guitar part - but nothing to do with the tuning. For example, in the E minor Corrente (p.22), bar 4-5. The passage begins with the note b (open string, second course). In the violin part the the note b goes down to g and then up a scale, g,a,b,c#, d, e. But the guitar part begins on b, then jumps up an octave for the g, a, and b then jumps back down to c#, d and e. In the final two bars of the first section the violin part goes from a high g (first course, third fret of guitar) down to b, a and g but the guitar part goes from the high g down to b and back up an octave for the a and g. Probably this is to make the instrument project a bit more - especially if there is a violin playing. But maybe it also shows an attitude of mind about melodic lines on the Baroque guitar. (As Monica has often insisted upon!) Stuart In short, I suggest they were indeed expected to be played as a trio for the best effect. Martyn On 4/7/2011 3:36 PM, Stuart Walsh[1][1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: Granata's Novi Capricci Armonici Musicali in vari toni per la chitarra spagnola, violino and viola concertati et altra sonate per chitarra sola 1674 has pieces for solo guitar and, at the beginning, 12 pieces with a guitar part on the left hand side and then in staff notation (treble and lightly figured bass) on the right. This publication has been discussed before but , as usual, I can't remember the details and don't want to plumb the archives. Gary Boyes [2][2]http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1674granata.html says that these pieces are for violin, guitar and continuo. I think last time the work was discussed somebody said that it might be like some lute trios where there is a lot of doubling (e.g. Hinterleithner and later in the 18th century, Martino and others). But I think it was Monica who thought that these pieces are(or might be) for violin and continuo, and alternatively playable as guitar solos. Anyway
[VIHUELA] Re: a little Granata experiment
Dear Stuart, I guess there's nothing to stop them being played as solos since the upper line seems to be doubled and the rest of the guitar part is pretty typical skeletal harmonies found in numerous guitar sources. Indeed, if you compare with the pieces in the same collection without any added parts, the general texture of the guitar part looks much the same (ie not a lot of independent contrapuntal activity). Regarding the held notes at the conclusion of each half, I think this suggests that these pieces were in fact conceived primarily for performance with the outer bowed instruments mentioned in the title - so that there would be no need to perpetuate the sound over a full (or large part of) long bar by such devices. In short, I suggest they were indeed expected to be played as a trio for the best effect. Martyn On 4/7/2011 3:36 PM, Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: Granata's Novi Capricci Armonici Musicali in vari toni per la chitarra spagnola, violino and viola concertati et altra sonate per chitarra sola 1674 has pieces for solo guitar and, at the beginning, 12 pieces with a guitar part on the left hand side and then in staff notation (treble and lightly figured bass) on the right. This publication has been discussed before but , as usual, I can't remember the details and don't want to plumb the archives. Gary Boyes [2]http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1674granata.html says that these pieces are for violin, guitar and continuo. I think last time the work was discussed somebody said that it might be like some lute trios where there is a lot of doubling (e.g. Hinterleithner and later in the 18th century, Martino and others). But I think it was Monica who thought that these pieces are(or might be) for violin and continuo, and alternatively playable as guitar solos. Anyway, I always thought it would be interesting to hear the guitar part with the bass line. So I've had a shot at one of the pieces, the Alemanda in E minor on page 20 which is quite attractive as a solo. I'm not sure how fast this piece is to go and I'm taking it fairly slowly. That leaves bar 8, the concluding bar of the first section, with one chord for the duration of the whole bar (or almost). That's a lot of space/time with nothing happening. Often in Allemandas, there are some arpeggio twiddles for the first two beats and then a strummed chord. (Most, but not all, of the later solo alemandas in this publication are treated in this way.) [3]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Granata.mp3 So this is for guitar and a lute playing the bass line. I didn't try and do continuo because I don't know enough about it and, anyway, the guitar is covering the main harmony. The bass does double the guitar quite a bit (but there is often a lot of doubling in the Baroque guitar duets I've seen). I think it's quite a strange sound. The second bar of the second section sounds weird. The clash in the repeat of the second section, towards the end is just my mistake. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1674granata.html 3. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Granata.mp3 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: a little Granata experiment
On 11/04/2011 09:01, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Regarding the held notes at the conclusion of each half, I think this suggests that these pieces were in fact conceived primarily for performance with the outer bowed instruments mentioned in the title - so that there would be no need to perpetuate the sound over a full (or large part of) long bar by such devices. Although bowed instruments seem to be indicated by the title page (violino e viola), the bass line is lightly figured. Maybe the violist would have added some harmonies. Many of the allemandas have these long empty bars at the end of each half. Even bowed, or on another sustaining instrument, they could sound as is musical activity has temporarily ceased! So plucked instrument strums and/or twiddles (as you suggest Falconieri did) is maybe what is in order. It's interesting that Granata does some 'octave-hopping' in the guitar part - but nothing to do with the tuning. For example, in the E minor Corrente (p.22), bar 4-5. The passage begins with the note b (open string, second course). In the violin part the the note b goes down to g and then up a scale, g,a,b,c#, d, e. But the guitar part begins on b, then jumps up an octave for the g, a, and b then jumps back down to c#, d and e. In the final two bars of the first section the violin part goes from a high g (first course, third fret of guitar) down to b, a and g but the guitar part goes from the high g down to b and back up an octave for the a and g. Probably this is to make the instrument project a bit more - especially if there is a violin playing. But maybe it also shows an attitude of mind about melodic lines on the Baroque guitar. (As Monica has often insisted upon!) Stuart In short, I suggest they were indeed expected to be played as a trio for the best effect. Martyn On 4/7/2011 3:36 PM, Stuart Walsh[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: Granata's Novi Capricci Armonici Musicali in vari toni per la chitarra spagnola, violino and viola concertati et altra sonate per chitarra sola 1674 has pieces for solo guitar and, at the beginning, 12 pieces with a guitar part on the left hand side and then in staff notation (treble and lightly figured bass) on the right. This publication has been discussed before but , as usual, I can't remember the details and don't want to plumb the archives. Gary Boyes [2]http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1674granata.html says that these pieces are for violin, guitar and continuo. I think last time the work was discussed somebody said that it might be like some lute trios where there is a lot of doubling (e.g. Hinterleithner and later in the 18th century, Martino and others). But I think it was Monica who thought that these pieces are(or might be) for violin and continuo, and alternatively playable as guitar solos. Anyway, I always thought it would be interesting to hear the guitar part with the bass line. So I've had a shot at one of the pieces, the Alemanda in E minor on page 20 which is quite attractive as a solo. I'm not sure how fast this piece is to go and I'm taking it fairly slowly. That leaves bar 8, the concluding bar of the first section, with one chord for the duration of the whole bar (or almost). That's a lot of space/time with nothing happening. Often in Allemandas, there are some arpeggio twiddles for the first two beats and then a strummed chord. (Most, but not all, of the later solo alemandas in this publication are treated in this way.) [3]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Granata.mp3 So this is for guitar and a lute playing the bass line. I didn't try and do continuo because I don't know enough about it and, anyway, the guitar is covering the main harmony. The bass does double the guitar quite a bit (but there is often a lot of doubling in the Baroque guitar duets I've seen). I think it's quite a strange sound. The second bar of the second section sounds weird. The clash in the repeat of the second section, towards the end is just my mistake. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1674granata.html 3. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Granata.mp3 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: a little Granata experiment
About the octave hopping -- I've noticed that in other works, and in cases that have nothing to do with stringing choices or technical difficulties... Notes that could as easily be played on the higher octave, or even doubled. And playing with bordones does not lead into the jump any differently (as far as I have noticed). I notice some instances in Roncalli, and even in Sanz there are instances that can't be explained by problems of tuning, alone. By the way Stuart, I really enjoy your recording. cud __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 4:59:06 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: a little Granata experiment On 11/04/2011 09:01, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Regarding the held notes at the conclusion of each half, I think this suggests that these pieces were in fact conceived primarily for performance with the outer bowed instruments mentioned in the title - so that there would be no need to perpetuate the sound over a full (or large part of) long bar by such devices. Although bowed instruments seem to be indicated by the title page (violino e viola), the bass line is lightly figured. Maybe the violist would have added some harmonies. Many of the allemandas have these long empty bars at the end of each half. Even bowed, or on another sustaining instrument, they could sound as is musical activity has temporarily ceased! So plucked instrument strums and/or twiddles (as you suggest Falconieri did) is maybe what is in order. It's interesting that Granata does some 'octave-hopping' in the guitar part - but nothing to do with the tuning. For example, in the E minor Corrente (p.22), bar 4-5. The passage begins with the note b (open string, second course). In the violin part the the note b goes down to g and then up a scale, g,a,b,c#, d, e. But the guitar part begins on b, then jumps up an octave for the g, a, and b then jumps back down to c#, d and e. In the final two bars of the first section the violin part goes from a high g (first course, third fret of guitar) down to b, a and g but the guitar part goes from the high g down to b and back up an octave for the a and g. Probably this is to make the instrument project a bit more - especially if there is a violin playing. But maybe it also shows an attitude of mind about melodic lines on the Baroque guitar. (As Monica has often insisted upon!) Stuart In short, I suggest they were indeed expected to be played as a trio for the best effect. Martyn On 4/7/2011 3:36 PM, Stuart Walsh[1][1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: Granata's Novi Capricci Armonici Musicali in vari toni per la chitarra spagnola, violino and viola concertati et altra sonate per chitarra sola 1674 has pieces for solo guitar and, at the beginning, 12 pieces with a guitar part on the left hand side and then in staff notation (treble and lightly figured bass) on the right. This publication has been discussed before but , as usual, I can't remember the details and don't want to plumb the archives. Gary Boyes [2][2]http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1674granata.html says that these pieces are for violin, guitar and continuo. I think last time the work was discussed somebody said that it might be like some lute trios where there is a lot of doubling (e.g. Hinterleithner and later in the 18th century, Martino and others). But I think it was Monica who thought that these pieces are(or might be) for violin and continuo, and alternatively playable as guitar solos. Anyway, I always thought it would be interesting to hear the guitar part with the bass line. So I've had a shot at one of the pieces, the Alemanda in E minor on page 20 which is quite attractive as a solo. I'm not sure how fast this piece is to go and I'm taking it fairly slowly. That leaves bar 8, the concluding bar of the first section, with one chord for the duration of the whole bar (or almost). That's a lot of space/time with nothing happening. Often in Allemandas, there are some arpeggio twiddles for the first two beats and then a strummed chord. (Most, but not all, of the later solo alemandas in this publication are treated in this way.) [3][3]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Granata.mp3 So this is for guitar and a lute playing the bass line. I didn't try and do continuo because I don't know enough about it and, anyway
[VIHUELA] Re: a little Granata experiment
Hi Stuart, I don't have anything enlightening to say about the publication, but I wanted to thank you for posting this; I enjoyed the music! Best, Jocelyn On 4/7/2011 3:36 PM, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: Granata's Novi Capricci Armonici Musicali in vari toni per la chitarra spagnola, violino and viola concertati et altra sonate per chitarra sola 1674 has pieces for solo guitar and, at the beginning, 12 pieces with a guitar part on the left hand side and then in staff notation (treble and lightly figured bass) on the right. This publication has been discussed before but , as usual, I can't remember the details and don't want to plumb the archives. Gary Boyes http://www.library.appstate.edu/music/guitar/1674granata.html says that these pieces are for violin, guitar and continuo. I think last time the work was discussed somebody said that it might be like some lute trios where there is a lot of doubling (e.g. Hinterleithner and later in the 18th century, Martino and others). But I think it was Monica who thought that these pieces are(or might be) for violin and continuo, and alternatively playable as guitar solos. Anyway, I always thought it would be interesting to hear the guitar part with the bass line. So I've had a shot at one of the pieces, the Alemanda in E minor on page 20 which is quite attractive as a solo. I'm not sure how fast this piece is to go and I'm taking it fairly slowly. That leaves bar 8, the concluding bar of the first section, with one chord for the duration of the whole bar (or almost). That's a lot of space/time with nothing happening. Often in Allemandas, there are some arpeggio twiddles for the first two beats and then a strummed chord. (Most, but not all, of the later solo alemandas in this publication are treated in this way.) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Granata.mp3 So this is for guitar and a lute playing the bass line. I didn't try and do continuo because I don't know enough about it and, anyway, the guitar is covering the main harmony. The bass does double the guitar quite a bit (but there is often a lot of doubling in the Baroque guitar duets I've seen). I think it's quite a strange sound. The second bar of the second section sounds weird. The clash in the repeat of the second section, towards the end is just my mistake. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
