[VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and campanella!

[Mjos & Larson]

The Piva which is definitely for a high 5th, The Colascione could  
work for low or high 5th course. The Arpeggiata a low 5th would be best.


The Arpeggiata is such a well-loved piece among theorbo players (I  
enjoyed it when I played theorbo, anyway) that I thought it would be  
fun to try to arrange it.


Given that there are so many compromises taken, I almost think of as  
an etude and ear stretcher and a way to visit an old friend (and,  
though I don't mean to be disrespectful, the piece is a bit bruised  
in the end!). I felt I should try to push it into B with your comment  
about the keys of the Foscarini pieces.


This is much easier on theorbo! I play through it at a very relaxed  
tempo. I can play all of the stretches, though I am sometimes  
resorting to half-bars, and in one place a bar across 3 strings with  
my fourth finger. I imagine a BB DD tuning would certainly make it a  
bit more theorbo-like. In my arrangements the first note is always  
the bass, but sometimes in order to squeeze in one more note to a  
chord I have pulled in a high octave note on the 5th course.


You would enjoy hearing it on theorbo. I think there is an  
interesting ebb and flow of harmonic tension and color (not so much  
melodic) that creates the opportunities for giving the piece  
"direction" (not quite sure if that the best word, but I can't think  
of another) through dynamics and timing.


Feel free to change the plucking order. I'm already seeing some  
places I might change.


There are a number of nice chromatic pieces (or sections of pieces)  
originally for guitar that are fun to play. The opening of the  
Prelude in A minor from the Murcia Saldivar Codex comes to mind.


-- Rocky



On Aug 18, 2008, at 3:27 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote:




Wow! I've been looking at Kapsberger_Solos2_rsm.pdf. I don't know  
this music and I'm really surprised at all the harmonies. (I don't  
know anything about this but I thought that continuo at this time  
was mostly major chords, minor chords, 6-3s and  4-3s).


I've just looked at the first two (the two versions of the one  
piece)  and they are quite a bit too difficult for me. Do you play  
them? Also I've got my two lower courses (in the alternative  
tuning) bB dD and I think you'd really need BB DD. Were you  
thinking of all the notes on the lower courses as unambiguously  
low? Even with a rock solid right hand technique on those arpeggios  
it must be quite difficult to give these pieces direction?



I enjoyed the video of Antonello Lixi.

Stuart




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and campanella!

[Stuart Walsh]

Mjos & Larson wrote:
I also think of scordatura less as playing in another key (although 
that may well be in a composer's mind given the idea of keys and 
emotions: see http://www.library.yale.edu/~mkoth/keychar.htm 
  for example), but 
that it creates interesting and different sonorities, interval 
possibilities, and fingerings.


Recently I stumbled across this video of Antonello Lixi 
performing Kapsberger's Toccata arpeggia:

http://weblogs.clarin.com/guitarras-del-mundo/archives/2007/10/antonello_lixi_y_su_guitarra_barroca.html

I began to transcribe his arrangement, then decided just to transcribe 
K's original and arrange it myself. An altered tuning seemed necessary 
to come even close to following the original pitches. Stuart's 
"Foscarini" tuning led me to try it (twice). I also tried a version 
with the fifth course lowered a half step. The results 
(Kapsberger_Solos2_rsm.pdf) can be downloaded from my Ning page:

http://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/RockyMjos

Monica's research has given even more possibilities! Thank you! (Meant 
both sarcastically and sincerely)


-- Rocky

Wow! I've been looking at Kapsberger_Solos2_rsm.pdf. I don't know this 
music and I'm really surprised at all the harmonies. (I don't know 
anything about this but I thought that continuo at this time was mostly 
major chords, minor chords, 6-3s and  4-3s).


I've just looked at the first two (the two versions of the one piece)  
and they are quite a bit too difficult for me. Do you play them? Also 
I've got my two lower courses (in the alternative tuning) bB dD and I 
think you'd really need BB DD. Were you thinking of all the notes on the 
lower courses as unambiguously low? Even with a rock solid right hand 
technique on those arpeggios it must be quite difficult to give these 
pieces direction?



I enjoyed the video of Antonello Lixi.

Stuart



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and campanella!

[Monica Hall]

Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and 
campanella!




I meant that there is a lot more - but I haven't posted it yet! I've now 
put dates on the entries and I will indicate changes to earlier posts by 
writing in red.  All the tunings you give below (and in the later email) 
are very interesting indeed. Including some chordal tunings too.


Jolly good - let us know when you post them.


Might it be an idea to have page on your website about them?


Not sure I've got time for that at the moment.
Do you mind
if I quote some of them on my Foscarini blog (with all acknowledgement to 
you, of course)?


Feel free to quote anything you like.

I actually found I had done an analysis of Campion's scordatura pieces - but 
I'll have to send these separately to you as an attachment because the 
tabulation goes funny if I cut and paste it into and E-mail.


(The painting you mention with the kids and the English guitar is the one 
I uploaded a while ago but I didn't know where it actually was.)


They are rather cute aren't they.   I'm not sure how they were related to 
Walpole.


Monica



Stuart







The nice thing about the Internet is that

it would be quite a coup in itself if absolutely no one was interested.


Anything to do with the baroque guitar is so fascinating that I have just 
spent an hour working out the scordaturae in Corbetta and Granata which 
are as follows...if they don't get mangled in transmission




Corbetta 1643  443   3

 a  dg bflat   d



Corbetta 1648   3   4   44

 a c#f#  b   e



Granata 1659

p.82   43-  34  D minor

  a  d fa   d



p.863   3-   4 3  A major

  a  c#  eac#



p.88343 3- F major

 ac   f a  c



p.933   4 4  4

 ac# f#   b   e



p.954   3 3- 4

 ad f#a   d D major



They seem to re-arrange the intervals within the basic compass on the 
whole.


I was hoping there might be similar alternative tunings to Foscarini's. 
On

the other hand there is yet another fascinating issue:  why guitarists
wanted to play in strange keys? It's not what plucked instruments
typically do.


I haven't had time to do Campion in detail but his scordaturae are 
similar to Granata.   The Gallot ones have always defeated me because 
they are so difficult to read.  One possible explanation is that it 
enables one to use more open course but also simplifies the left-hand 
fingering.  In Foscarini a lot of the chords consist just of a barre 
across all five courses.


I'm not sure that I do. But I uploaded a photocopy of a painting of some
children with an English guitar a while ago. I can't find it anywhere
though.


I've put it on my guitar.ning site if anyone is inteested.


Going back to Foscarini and his alternative tuning: he writes campanella
passages. Now it's probably possible to do campanellas in just about any
tuning but it's a lot easier in some than others. One easier way is
(Foscarini's) tuning in thirds (taken up in a sophisticated way by the
much later Russian guitar). Another way is re-entrant tuning. Foscarini 
is

writing campanellas  around 1632. Is anyone else writing campanellas at
his time or before? Old Fosco couldn't have been setting a trend could 
he?


Well - his book is the first to have appeared in print (as far as we 
know) but things have usually been round a while before anyone gets to 
printing them.   There are dozens of Italian mss. most of which I haven't 
seen and at least one of them has mixed chords with lute style 
counterpoint.   There are no campanella's in Corbetta's 1639 book but by 
1643 they begin to be a feature.


They are also associated with the theorbo so may have been used by 
lutenists earlier.


Monica


- Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:04 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] alternative tunings for Baroque guitar



I have been looking at some Foscarini pieces in an alternative tuning
and,
just for the hell of it, I'm trying to do a little website about them.
My
idea is to do the website as a sort of blog - a bit at at a time.
But blog software (I'm using WordPress) only lets you put postings in
reverse chronology - the latest post is first  - whereas I'm wanting 
to

build up the thing th

[VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and campanella!

[Stuart Walsh]

Monica Hall wrote:

Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and
campanella!

Thanks for saying it's an interesting topic! There is a lot more (oh 
no!)

...with pictures wherever too.


Well - I couldn't find any more.


I meant that there is a lot more - but I haven't posted it yet! I've now 
put dates on the entries and I will indicate changes to earlier posts by 
writing in red.  All the tunings you give below (and in the later email) 
are very interesting indeed. Including some chordal tunings too.


Might it be an idea to have page on your website about them? Do you mind 
if I quote some of them on my Foscarini blog (with all acknowledgement 
to you, of course)?


(The painting you mention with the kids and the English guitar is the 
one I uploaded a while ago but I didn't know where it actually was.)



Stuart







The nice thing about the Internet is that

it would be quite a coup in itself if absolutely no one was interested.


Anything to do with the baroque guitar is so fascinating that I have 
just spent an hour working out the scordaturae in Corbetta and Granata 
which are as follows...if they don't get mangled in transmission




Corbetta 1643  443   3

 a  dg bflat   d



Corbetta 1648   3   4   44

 a c#f#  b   e



Granata 1659

p.82   43-  34  D minor

  a  d fa   d



p.863   3-   4 3  A major

  a  c#  eac#



p.88343 3- F major

 ac   f a  c



p.933   4 4  4

 ac# f#   b   e



p.954   3 3- 4

 ad f#a   d D major



They seem to re-arrange the intervals within the basic compass on the 
whole.


I was hoping there might be similar alternative tunings to 
Foscarini's. On

the other hand there is yet another fascinating issue:  why guitarists
wanted to play in strange keys? It's not what plucked instruments
typically do.


I haven't had time to do Campion in detail but his scordaturae are 
similar to Granata.   The Gallot ones have always defeated me because 
they are so difficult to read.  One possible explanation is that it 
enables one to use more open course but also simplifies the left-hand 
fingering.  In Foscarini a lot of the chords consist just of a barre 
across all five courses.


I'm not sure that I do. But I uploaded a photocopy of a painting of some
children with an English guitar a while ago. I can't find it anywhere
though.


I've put it on my guitar.ning site if anyone is inteested.


Going back to Foscarini and his alternative tuning: he writes campanella
passages. Now it's probably possible to do campanellas in just about any
tuning but it's a lot easier in some than others. One easier way is
(Foscarini's) tuning in thirds (taken up in a sophisticated way by the
much later Russian guitar). Another way is re-entrant tuning. 
Foscarini is

writing campanellas  around 1632. Is anyone else writing campanellas at
his time or before? Old Fosco couldn't have been setting a trend 
could he?


Well - his book is the first to have appeared in print (as far as we 
know) but things have usually been round a while before anyone gets to 
printing them.   There are dozens of Italian mss. most of which I 
haven't seen and at least one of them has mixed chords with lute style 
counterpoint.   There are no campanella's in Corbetta's 1639 book but 
by 1643 they begin to be a feature.


They are also associated with the theorbo so may have been used by 
lutenists earlier.


Monica


- Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:04 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] alternative tunings for Baroque guitar



I have been looking at some Foscarini pieces in an alternative tuning
and,
just for the hell of it, I'm trying to do a little website about them.
My
idea is to do the website as a sort of blog - a bit at at a time.
But blog software (I'm using WordPress) only lets you put postings in
reverse chronology - the latest post is first  - whereas I'm 
wanting to

build up the thing the normal way around.

I've given it the title, "Foscarini's 'la cordatura diferente', 
Russian

guitars and erotic dance" (!) Anyway it amuses me... No part of it is
quite ready  yet but there are a few provisional posts already: here:

http://www.tuningsinthirds.co

[VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and campanella!

[Mjos & Larson]

I also think of scordatura less as playing in another key (although
that may well be in a composer's mind given the idea of keys and
emotions: see http://www.library.yale.edu/~mkoth/keychar.htm  for
example), but that it creates interesting and different sonorities,
interval possibilities, and fingerings.

Recently I stumbled across this video of Antonello Lixi performing
Kapsberger's Toccata arpeggia:
http://weblogs.clarin.com/guitarras-del-mundo/archives/2007/10/
antonello_lixi_y_su_guitarra_barroca.html

I began to transcribe his arrangement, then decided just to
transcribe K's original and arrange it myself. An altered tuning
seemed necessary to come even close to following the original
pitches. Stuart's "Foscarini" tuning led me to try it (twice). I also
tried a version with the fifth course lowered a half step. The
results (Kapsberger_Solos2_rsm.pdf) can be downloaded from my Ning page:
http://earlyguitar.ning.com/profile/RockyMjos

Monica's research has given even more possibilities! Thank you!
(Meant both sarcastically and sincerely)

-- Rocky




On Aug 16, 2008, at 6:51 PM, Stuart Walsh wrote:

>
>> Hi Stuart
>>
>> I haven't had time to read it all properly because I have just
>> come back from holiday ...and it seems to peter out at the
>> end is that because you are going to add some more?  But this
>> is very interesting topic.
> Thanks for saying it's an interesting topic! There is a lot more
> (oh no!) ...with pictures wherever too. The nice thing about the
> Internet is that it would be quite a coup in itself if absolutely
> no one was interested.
>
>>
>> The two sources which use scordatura like crazy are the Gallot
>> ms.and Campion and several other guitar books include pieces in
>> scordatura but they are not usually common chord tunings.   The
>> main purpose seems to be to enable one to play in "difficult" keys.
>
> I was hoping there might be similar alternative tunings to
> Foscarini's. On the other hand there is yet another fascinating
> issue:  why guitarists wanted to play in strange keys? It's not
> what plucked instruments typically do.
>
>>
>> Incidentally do you know the picture of the "Waldegrave" sisters
>> at Houghton Hall?   Three charming little girls. one playing the
>> English guitar.   I've just come back from Norfolk where I visited
>> this particular stately home for the first time.
>
> I'm not sure that I do. But I uploaded a photocopy of a painting of
> some children with an English guitar a while ago. I can't find it
> anywhere though.
>
> Going back to Foscarini and his alternative tuning: he writes
> campanella passages. Now it's probably possible to do campanellas
> in just about any tuning but it's a lot easier in some than others.
> One easier way is (Foscarini's) tuning in thirds (taken up in a
> sophisticated way by the  much later Russian guitar). Another way
> is re-entrant tuning. Foscarini is writing campanellas  around
> 1632. Is anyone else writing campanellas at his time or before? Old
> Fosco couldn't have been setting a trend could he?
>
>
> Stuart
>
>>
>> Monica
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Vihuelalist" 
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:04 PM
>> Subject: [VIHUELA] alternative tunings for Baroque guitar
>>
>>
>>> I have been looking at some Foscarini pieces in an alternative
>>> tuning and,
>>> just for the hell of it, I'm trying to do a little website about
>>> them. My
>>> idea is to do the website as a sort of blog - a bit at at a time.
>>> But blog software (I'm using WordPress) only lets you put
>>> postings in
>>> reverse chronology - the latest post is first  - whereas I'm
>>> wanting to
>>> build up the thing the normal way around.
>>>
>>> I've given it the title, "Foscarini's 'la cordatura diferente',
>>> Russian
>>> guitars and erotic dance" (!) Anyway it amuses me... No part of
>>> it is
>>> quite ready  yet but there are a few provisional posts already:
>>> here:
>>>
>>> http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/Foscarini/
>>>
>>> (anyone who's interested in these things will no doubt see where
>>> it's
>>> going)
>>>
>>> Anyway what I'm after is information about alternative guitar
>>> tunings (for
>>> Baroque guitar). I've never tried any other than Foscarini's but
>>> I know
>>> there are lots. It would be especially interesting if there were
>>> other
>>> guitar pieces that use Foscarini's alternative tuning - lowest
>>> course
>>> raised a tone and top course lowered a tone B-d-g-b-d' .
>>>
>>> The online pdf  thesis of Julian Navarro Gonzalez discusses
>>> alternative
>>> tunings on pp344-345 but I can't follow it and I can't even see
>>> Foscarini's alternative tuning.
>>>
>>> Any advice or sources of information on alternative tunings and any
>>> comments, fatal flaws etc would be welcomed ( I think).
>>>
>>>
>>> Stuart
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>> No virus found

[VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and campanella!

[Monica Hall]

Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and
campanella!

The thing that slightly puzzles me about these guitar variant tunings is why
some (not all of course) were bothered with.  Some chords (usually the
tonic) are, of course, made easier but others in the same piece not. As you
say Murcia transcribed back. Rather like him, by and large, I often
wish the others hadn't bothered.  Was it: lute envy, showing off or simply
'doodling' do you think?

I really don't know.   Campion seems to suggest that they make the music 
easier to play - there are no awkward chords for the left hand.


I have to say that when I did try some of the pieces I didn't find this was 
the case.   the chord shapes are different from the basic ones which is a 
bit disconcerting since so much baroque guitar music consists of standard 
chords interspersed with three part writing.   I found I was trying to read 
the French tab as if it was Italian.


The scordatura which Campion uses most is

ac#f#be
  3  4 44
but there are several others.

Monica


--- On Sun, 17/8/08, Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and
campanella!
To: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
Date: Sunday, 17 August, 2008, 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque
guitar - and
campanella!

> Thanks for saying it's an interesting topic! There
is a lot more (oh no!)
> ...with pictures wherever too.

Well - I couldn't find any more.

The nice thing about the Internet is that
> it would be quite a coup in itself if absolutely no
one was interested.

Anything to do with the baroque guitar is so fascinating
that I have just
spent an hour working out the scordaturae in Corbetta and
Granata which are
as follows...if they don't get mangled in transmission



Corbetta 1643  443   3

  a  dg bflat   d



Corbetta 1648   3   4   44

  a c#f#  b   e



Granata 1659

p.82   43-  34
D minor

   a  d fa
 d



p.863   3-   4 3
  A major

   a  c#  ea
c#



p.88343 3-
   F major

  ac   f a
c



p.933   4 4  4

  ac# f#   b
e



p.954   3 3- 4

  ad f#a
d D major



 They seem to re-arrange the intervals within the basic
compass on the
whole.

> I was hoping there might be similar alternative
tunings to Foscarini's. On
> the other hand there is yet another fascinating issue:
 why guitarists
> wanted to play in strange keys? It's not what
plucked instruments
> typically do.

I haven't had time to do Campion in detail but his
scordaturae are similar
to Granata.   The Gallot ones have always defeated me
because they are so
difficult to read.  One possible explanation is that it
enables one to use
more open course but also simplifies the left-hand
fingering.  In Foscarini
a lot of the chords consist just of a barre across all five
courses.
>
> I'm not sure that I do. But I uploaded a photocopy
of a painting of some
> children with an English guitar a while ago. I
can't find it anywhere
> though.

I've put it on my guitar.ning site if anyone is
inteested.
>
> Going back to Foscarini and his alternative tuning: he
writes campanella
> passages. Now it's probably possible to do
campanellas in just about any
> tuning but it's a lot easier in some than others.
One easier way is
> (Foscarini's) tuning in thirds (taken up in a
sophisticated way by the
> much later Russian guitar). Another way is re-entrant
tuning. Foscarini is
> writing campanellas  around 1632. Is anyone else
writing campanellas at
> his time or before? Old Fosco couldn't have been
setting a trend could he?

Well - his book is the first to have appeared in print (as
far as we know)
but things have usually been round a while before anyone
gets to printing
them.   There are dozens of Italian mss. most of which I
haven't seen and at
least one of them has mixed chords with lute style
counterpoint.   There are
no campanella's in Corbetta's 1639 book but by 1643
they begin to be a
feature.

They are also associated with the theorbo so may have been
used by lutenists
earlier.

Monica


>> - Original Message - From: "Stuart
Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECT

[VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and campanella!

[Martyn Hodgson]

The thing that slightly puzzles me about these guitar variant tunings is why 
some (not all of course) were bothered with.  Some chords (usually the tonic) 
are, of course, made easier but others in the same piece not. As you say Murcia 
transcribed back. Rather like him, by and large, I often wish the 
others hadn't bothered.  Was it: lute envy, showing off or simply 'doodling' do 
you think?

Martyn


--- On Sun, 17/8/08, Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> From: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and 
> campanella!
> To: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
> Date: Sunday, 17 August, 2008, 3:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque
> guitar - and
> campanella!
> 
> > Thanks for saying it's an interesting topic! There
> is a lot more (oh no!)
> > ...with pictures wherever too.
> 
> Well - I couldn't find any more.
> 
> The nice thing about the Internet is that
> > it would be quite a coup in itself if absolutely no
> one was interested.
> 
> Anything to do with the baroque guitar is so fascinating
> that I have just 
> spent an hour working out the scordaturae in Corbetta and
> Granata which are 
> as follows...if they don't get mangled in transmission
> 
> 
> 
> Corbetta 1643  443   3
> 
>   a  dg bflat   d
> 
> 
> 
> Corbetta 1648   3   4   44
> 
>   a c#f#  b   e
> 
> 
> 
> Granata 1659
> 
> p.82   43-  34 
> D minor
> 
>a  d fa 
>  d
> 
> 
> 
> p.863   3-   4 3   
>   A major
> 
>a  c#  ea   
> c#
> 
> 
> 
> p.88343 3- 
>F major
> 
>   ac   f a 
> c
> 
> 
> 
> p.933   4 4  4
> 
>   ac# f#   b  
> e
> 
> 
> 
> p.954   3 3- 4
> 
>   ad f#a  
> d D major
> 
> 
> 
>  They seem to re-arrange the intervals within the basic
> compass on the 
> whole.
> 
> > I was hoping there might be similar alternative
> tunings to Foscarini's. On
> > the other hand there is yet another fascinating issue:
>  why guitarists
> > wanted to play in strange keys? It's not what
> plucked instruments
> > typically do.
> 
> I haven't had time to do Campion in detail but his
> scordaturae are similar 
> to Granata.   The Gallot ones have always defeated me
> because they are so 
> difficult to read.  One possible explanation is that it
> enables one to use 
> more open course but also simplifies the left-hand
> fingering.  In Foscarini 
> a lot of the chords consist just of a barre across all five
> courses.
> >
> > I'm not sure that I do. But I uploaded a photocopy
> of a painting of some
> > children with an English guitar a while ago. I
> can't find it anywhere
> > though.
> 
> I've put it on my guitar.ning site if anyone is
> inteested.
> >
> > Going back to Foscarini and his alternative tuning: he
> writes campanella
> > passages. Now it's probably possible to do
> campanellas in just about any
> > tuning but it's a lot easier in some than others.
> One easier way is
> > (Foscarini's) tuning in thirds (taken up in a
> sophisticated way by the
> > much later Russian guitar). Another way is re-entrant
> tuning. Foscarini is
> > writing campanellas  around 1632. Is anyone else
> writing campanellas at
> > his time or before? Old Fosco couldn't have been
> setting a trend could he?
> 
> Well - his book is the first to have appeared in print (as
> far as we know) 
> but things have usually been round a while before anyone
> gets to printing 
> them.   There are dozens of Italian mss. most of which I
> haven't seen and at 
> least one of them has mixed chords with lute style
> counterpoint.   There are 
> no campanella's in Corbetta's 1639 book but by 1643
> they begin to be a 
> feature.
> 
> They are also associated with the theorbo so may have been
> used by lutenists 
> earlier.
> 
> Monica
> 
> 
>

[VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and campanella!

[Monica Hall]

Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and
campanella!


Thanks for saying it's an interesting topic! There is a lot more (oh no!)
...with pictures wherever too.


Well - I couldn't find any more.

The nice thing about the Internet is that

it would be quite a coup in itself if absolutely no one was interested.


Anything to do with the baroque guitar is so fascinating that I have just 
spent an hour working out the scordaturae in Corbetta and Granata which are 
as follows...if they don't get mangled in transmission




Corbetta 1643  443   3

 a  dg bflat   d



Corbetta 1648   3   4   44

 a c#f#  b   e



Granata 1659

p.82   43-  34  D minor

  a  d fa   d



p.863   3-   4 3  A major

  a  c#  eac#



p.88343 3- F major

 ac   f a  c



p.933   4 4  4

 ac# f#   b   e



p.954   3 3- 4

 ad f#a   d D major



They seem to re-arrange the intervals within the basic compass on the 
whole.



I was hoping there might be similar alternative tunings to Foscarini's. On
the other hand there is yet another fascinating issue:  why guitarists
wanted to play in strange keys? It's not what plucked instruments
typically do.


I haven't had time to do Campion in detail but his scordaturae are similar 
to Granata.   The Gallot ones have always defeated me because they are so 
difficult to read.  One possible explanation is that it enables one to use 
more open course but also simplifies the left-hand fingering.  In Foscarini 
a lot of the chords consist just of a barre across all five courses.


I'm not sure that I do. But I uploaded a photocopy of a painting of some
children with an English guitar a while ago. I can't find it anywhere
though.


I've put it on my guitar.ning site if anyone is inteested.


Going back to Foscarini and his alternative tuning: he writes campanella
passages. Now it's probably possible to do campanellas in just about any
tuning but it's a lot easier in some than others. One easier way is
(Foscarini's) tuning in thirds (taken up in a sophisticated way by the
much later Russian guitar). Another way is re-entrant tuning. Foscarini is
writing campanellas  around 1632. Is anyone else writing campanellas at
his time or before? Old Fosco couldn't have been setting a trend could he?


Well - his book is the first to have appeared in print (as far as we know) 
but things have usually been round a while before anyone gets to printing 
them.   There are dozens of Italian mss. most of which I haven't seen and at 
least one of them has mixed chords with lute style counterpoint.   There are 
no campanella's in Corbetta's 1639 book but by 1643 they begin to be a 
feature.


They are also associated with the theorbo so may have been used by lutenists 
earlier.


Monica



- Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:04 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] alternative tunings for Baroque guitar



I have been looking at some Foscarini pieces in an alternative tuning
and,
just for the hell of it, I'm trying to do a little website about them.
My
idea is to do the website as a sort of blog - a bit at at a time.
But blog software (I'm using WordPress) only lets you put postings in
reverse chronology - the latest post is first  - whereas I'm wanting to
build up the thing the normal way around.

I've given it the title, "Foscarini's 'la cordatura diferente', Russian
guitars and erotic dance" (!) Anyway it amuses me... No part of it is
quite ready  yet but there are a few provisional posts already: here:

http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/Foscarini/

(anyone who's interested in these things will no doubt see where it's
going)

Anyway what I'm after is information about alternative guitar tunings
(for
Baroque guitar). I've never tried any other than Foscarini's but I know
there are lots. It would be especially interesting if there were other
guitar pieces that use Foscarini's alternative tuning - lowest course
raised a tone and top course lowered a tone B-d-g-b-d' .

The online pdf  thesis of Julian Navarro Gonzalez discusses alternative
tunings on pp344-345 but I can't follow it and I can't even see
Foscarini's alternative

[VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar

[Rob MacKillop]

   I have been too scared to retune for the de Visee suite, and have never
   heard it performed. I wonder if retuning was involved or re-stringing?
   French lute players (much earlier than de Visee) searched for different
   resonances, and that lead to unmeasured preludes as they explored what
   was unique about each tuning. Modern acoustic guitar players also have
   many different tunings - different resonance and different campanellas,
   different keys also. See
   [1]http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/WarrenAllen/tunings/tunings
   .htm

   It seems that most plucked instrument players, and bowed (come to think
   of it), get bored (possibly - boredom is a very creative force) with
   standard tuning. We often discuss baroque guitar matters as if the
   player only had one instrument. Professionals and those who could
   afford it would have had quite a few instruments, some with different
   bourdon settings, and possibly some with different tunings.

   Monica states that 'they completely alter the sound quality of the
   instrument' - well, that was the whole point, I imagine.

   Rob

   2008/8/17 Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

   Yes.   Recently Gerard Rebours sent me an article which he has written
   which mentions this.  He makes an interesting point which is that if
   you follow the instructions literally i.e. starting with the 3rd
   course, the 1st course will have to be tuned up a minor 3rd to G.   He
   finds himself that this isn't very practical.   The instructions
   shouldn't be taken too literally.  He suggests tuning the 3rd course up
   a semitone or a tone to keep the 1st course at a reasonable pitch.

   The thing I have noticed about using these scordaturae (if that is th
   correct plural) is that they completely alter the sound quality of the
   instrument.   Also it takes a while for the instrument to settle in the
   new tuning although that may be my ears or my guitar.   And you can't
   play anything else for the time being.   Constantly re-tuning is
   tiresome to say the least.

   I do wonder why they used them.   Santiago de Murcia has re-arranged
   the pieces by Campion he has included in Passacalles y obras for the
   standard tuning.

   The other thing which is curious is that I don't know of any example
   where the 5th course is tuned down to G to  increase the overall
   compass of the instrument which would be the logical thing to do
   especially when accompanying a bass line.

   Of course if you do this it makes the fingering of the standard chords
   more complex.   And would be pointless with re-entrant tunings.

   Monica


   - Original Message -

   From: [3]Rob MacKillop

   To: [4]Monica Hall

   Cc: [5]Stuart Walsh ; [6]Vihuelalist

   Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 9:41 PM

   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar

   And the suite by de Visee in his first guitar book, page 50.

   Rob MacKillop

   --

References

   1. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/WarrenAllen/tunings/tunings.htm
   2. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   3. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   4. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   5. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar - and campanella!

[Stuart Walsh]

Hi Stuart

I haven't had time to read it all properly because I have just come 
back from holiday ...and it seems to peter out at the end is that 
because you are going to add some more?  But this is very interesting 
topic.
Thanks for saying it's an interesting topic! There is a lot more (oh 
no!) ...with pictures wherever too. The nice thing about the Internet is 
that it would be quite a coup in itself if absolutely no one was interested.




The two sources which use scordatura like crazy are the Gallot ms.and 
Campion and several other guitar books include pieces in scordatura 
but they are not usually common chord tunings.   The main purpose 
seems to be to enable one to play in "difficult" keys.


I was hoping there might be similar alternative tunings to Foscarini's. 
On the other hand there is yet another fascinating issue:  why 
guitarists wanted to play in strange keys? It's not what plucked 
instruments typically do.




Incidentally do you know the picture of the "Waldegrave" sisters at 
Houghton Hall?   Three charming little girls. one playing the English 
guitar.   I've just come back from Norfolk where I visited this 
particular stately home for the first time.


I'm not sure that I do. But I uploaded a photocopy of a painting of some 
children with an English guitar a while ago. I can't find it anywhere 
though.


Going back to Foscarini and his alternative tuning: he writes campanella 
passages. Now it's probably possible to do campanellas in just about any 
tuning but it's a lot easier in some than others. One easier way is 
(Foscarini's) tuning in thirds (taken up in a sophisticated way by the  
much later Russian guitar). Another way is re-entrant tuning. Foscarini 
is writing campanellas  around 1632. Is anyone else writing campanellas 
at his time or before? Old Fosco couldn't have been setting a trend 
could he?



Stuart



Monica


- Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:04 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] alternative tunings for Baroque guitar


I have been looking at some Foscarini pieces in an alternative tuning 
and,
just for the hell of it, I'm trying to do a little website about 
them. My

idea is to do the website as a sort of blog - a bit at at a time.
But blog software (I'm using WordPress) only lets you put postings in
reverse chronology - the latest post is first  - whereas I'm wanting to
build up the thing the normal way around.

I've given it the title, "Foscarini's 'la cordatura diferente', Russian
guitars and erotic dance" (!) Anyway it amuses me... No part of it is
quite ready  yet but there are a few provisional posts already: here:

http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/Foscarini/

(anyone who's interested in these things will no doubt see where it's
going)

Anyway what I'm after is information about alternative guitar tunings 
(for

Baroque guitar). I've never tried any other than Foscarini's but I know
there are lots. It would be especially interesting if there were other
guitar pieces that use Foscarini's alternative tuning - lowest course
raised a tone and top course lowered a tone B-d-g-b-d' .

The online pdf  thesis of Julian Navarro Gonzalez discusses alternative
tunings on pp344-345 but I can't follow it and I can't even see
Foscarini's alternative tuning.

Any advice or sources of information on alternative tunings and any
comments, fatal flaws etc would be welcomed ( I think).


Stuart



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




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[VIHUELA] Re: alternative tunings for Baroque guitar

[Monica Hall]

Hi Stuart

I haven't had time to read it all properly because I have just come back 
from holiday ...and it seems to peter out at the end is that because you 
are going to add some more?  But this is very interesting topic.


The two sources which use scordatura like crazy are the Gallot ms.and 
Campion and several other guitar books include pieces in scordatura but they 
are not usually common chord tunings.   The main purpose seems to be to 
enable one to play in "difficult" keys.


Incidentally do you know the picture of the "Waldegrave" sisters at Houghton 
Hall?   Three charming little girls. one playing the English guitar.   I've 
just come back from Norfolk where I visited this particular stately home for 
the first time.


Monica


- Original Message - 
From: "Stuart Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:04 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] alternative tunings for Baroque guitar



I have been looking at some Foscarini pieces in an alternative tuning and,
just for the hell of it, I'm trying to do a little website about them. My
idea is to do the website as a sort of blog - a bit at at a time.
But blog software (I'm using WordPress) only lets you put postings in
reverse chronology - the latest post is first  - whereas I'm wanting to
build up the thing the normal way around.

I've given it the title, "Foscarini's 'la cordatura diferente', Russian
guitars and erotic dance" (!) Anyway it amuses me... No part of it is
quite ready  yet but there are a few provisional posts already: here:

http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/Foscarini/

(anyone who's interested in these things will no doubt see where it's
going)

Anyway what I'm after is information about alternative guitar tunings (for
Baroque guitar). I've never tried any other than Foscarini's but I know
there are lots. It would be especially interesting if there were other
guitar pieces that use Foscarini's alternative tuning - lowest course
raised a tone and top course lowered a tone B-d-g-b-d' .

The online pdf  thesis of Julian Navarro Gonzalez discusses alternative
tunings on pp344-345 but I can't follow it and I can't even see
Foscarini's alternative tuning.

Any advice or sources of information on alternative tunings and any
comments, fatal flaws etc would be welcomed ( I think).


Stuart



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html