[VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Ed, Yes, although I can't put my hand on the facsimile to check his exact words. You can see Romulo Vega-Gonzalez playing one of Newsidler's pieces with Durchstreicher on YouTube: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PA-b_q0i4U&playnext=1&list=PL62023B2 E6C817318&index=56 The music speeds up half way through the clip, and the strumming technique works well at the faster speed. At the end of the clip Romulo has kindly provided a facsimile of the music, so we can see what the music looks like. It's in German tablature, and you can see the notes of the strummed chords stacked up one above the other. I don't think it would be a good idea to use fingers to pluck the first couple of courses. It's not what Newsidler envisaged, and it would slow you down. When striking all the strings with the thumb, there is a tendency to miss the first course, but at speed that doesn't matter too much. I would compare it to the tremolos used by flamenco guitarists, or the tremolo in Recuerdos de la Alhambra, where the thumb strikes the bass followed by the fingers providing the tremolo. At speed you don't really notice the little gap in the repeated notes of the tremolo when the thumb strikes the bass. There are lots of close-ups of John Williams' right hand on [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDlQE9djIxE&feature=fvsr but you need to skip through the nonsense of the first half of the clip before you get to Recuerdos. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Ed Durbrow [mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp] Sent: 21 November 2010 03:13 To: Stewart McCoy Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence Non-vihuela/guitar question: Did Newsidler actually write that those chords are to be played with the thumb? In many cases like that, I find it easier and clearer to play the top two notes with i & m and brush the thumb over how ever many courses are left over. TIA -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PA-b_q0i4U&playnext=1&list=PL62023B2E6C817318&index=56 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDlQE9djIxE&feature=fvsr To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Monica,
I agree that it is probably best to move on now, but please don't think
the thread has not been worthwhile. I have learned a lot about the
baroque guitar and its music, in particular about Landi's songs, and I
value what you, Lex, Martyn and others have had to say on the subject.
In a couple of minutes I'll be off to The Plough for a couple of pints.
Pity the three of you can't join me there.
Best wishes,
Stewart.
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Monica Hall
Sent: 19 November 2010 19:35
To: Martyn Hodgson
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
I can't summarize it in a single sentence but I hope I can explain
briefly.
I think the reason for including alfabeto in these song books is
because
they were
not intended to be
accompanied in the same way as they would be on the theorbo or keyboard.
There is no point in doing something which other instruments could do
better. And if performers could or wanted to do so they would use the
bass
line provided.
A different style of accompaniment is intended - one which is entirely
strummed which can in its way be very effective. Later perhaps taste
changed leading to a mixed or more varied style of accompaniment but I
don't think that strumming ever went out of fashion.
I responded cautiously to Lex's original message about the Landi songs
because it was an interesting subject and I thought I might be able to
shed
some light on the problem. I am grateful to him to drawing my
attention to
the facsimile as I was familiar with some of the songs but had not
previously seen the orignal score.
However we have discussed all the rest of this previously and what
happens
is that we end up going round and round in circles. We obviously have
very
different ideas on the subject. The only reason for my continuing to
take
part in it is because I don't think that only one point of view should
be
put forward. But my time is limited.
I think that it is a pity that we cannot find anything more worthwhile
to
discuss than the stringing of the 5-course guitar which is where it
always
ends up.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Vihuelalist" ; "Lex Eisenhardt"
; "Monica Hall"
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 10:51 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
>
>Dear Lex,
>
> Well, it just goes to show how such a protracted exchange can become
as
> Chinese whispers. I had gained the impression that this (ie
> principally avoidance of inversions in alfabeto) was the issue -
> including of course non-BC bourdon use with which it is
inextricably
> entwined. I can therefore see little practical difference between
any
> of these vigorously defended positions. If there is any significant
> difference after all that has been said, would you and Monica kindly
> (in a sentence) summarise the res as they see it.
>
> Martyn
> --- On Fri, 19/11/10, Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
>
> From: Lex Eisenhardt
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
> To: "Vihuelalist"
> Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 9:49
>
> Dear Martyn,
> you wrote:
> > However, I don't think this is quite the same as saying, as
I
> think Lex
> does, that players (even the amateurs at which the tablatures
are
> often
> aimed) would have routinely (perhaps even always) sought to
avoid
> inversions by selective strumming.
> What makes you think that I believe that??
> I have no idea what was done routinely ('even [by] the
amateurs'),
> and
> do not pretend to know what was (perhaps) always done. Nor what
was
> _
> never_ done, for that matter.
> best wishes, Lex
> --
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
[VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Monica, Many thanks for your reply to my email about strumming. We agree that a good guitarist wouldn't always feel obliged to strum every available string of a chord all the time. We also agree that guitarists had long been happy with the "wrong" inversion of a chord - in particular, second inversions. Where we differ, I think, is whether someone strumming a guitar with bourdons may have chosen to avoid some of the lower notes of a chord, where they would otherwise interfere with a bass line, like the bass notes played on a spinet for that song by Stefano Landi. To this I would ask, why is that guitarists in the 17th century chose to string their guitars without bourdons? By doing that, they drastically reduce the overall range of the instrument, and different courses end up duplicating each other by sounding notes at the same pitch. It seems a very strange thing to want to do, yet so many guitarists chose to string their guitars that way. Having a re-entrant tuning enables one to play lots of fancy campanellas, of course, but I suspect that this was not why the bourdons were removed in the first place. My guess, (and it would be lovely if you could confirm it to be right), is that the bourdons were removed for the sake of strumming. Second inversions were not such a problem per se, especially if there was another instrument supplying the true bass, but a second inversion involving a "wrong" note sounding below the bass, or one which was particularly low in pitch, was not satisfactory. Assuming that to be the case, the guitarist has two ways of avoiding those low, unwanted notes. Either he avoids playing them, as Lex has maintained was a possibility, or he gets rid of the bourdons altogether, so that he can strum to his heart's content without having to worry about having to miss out the odd unfelicitous low note. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 19 November 2010 12:18 To: Stewart McCoy Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence > Triads were not new in the 17th century. They had certainly been around > a lot earlier than that, and were pretty well established by the 15th > century. Composers like Dufay made much use of them. You have only to > look at 15th-century pieces played on the lute with a plectrum to see > how a polyphonic texture was filled out here and there with triadic > chords. I think you are taking everything I have said literally and out of context. There is a difference between consonances made up of the notes of a triad and a recognization of the relationship between them. It is not that these things are "new" in the sense that no-one had ever thought them before. Rather there is a shift of emphasis with the emmergence of the seconda prattica. It is obvious in the 4-course repertoire that there are the same chords which are found in the 5-course repertoire but without the fifth course and these may have been strummed. These are on the margins so to speak. > As far as strumming on the guitar is concerned, the actual notes played > cannot always be notated accurately, because a skilled strummer will not > strike all the strings of a chord every time. He may, for example, > choose to strike all the strings for a strong down-stroke, but catch > just the first few strings with a lighter strum on the up-stroke. I have no problem at all with the idea that there would be different strumming patterns to create a contrast in texture but I do not agree with you or Lex that ensuring that the chords were in the correct inversions was an issue. It is an entirely modern obsession. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Chris, I have in mind pieces like this Calata ala spagnola from Dalza's collection printed in 1508: [1]http://www.gerbode.net/ft2/sources/dalza_intabulatura_v4_1508/50v.pn g The piece is constructed on a simple, repeated bass line giving root-position chords. In fact, there are slight discrepancies as you go through the piece, which suggest either a bar or two missing or a free attitude to the chord sequence, but the piece is certainly not polyphonic, and one could be excused for imagining it had been written 100 years later. An example of Newsidler's Durchstreicher - downward strums with the thumb - can be seen at [2]http://www.gerbode.net/ft2/sources/hnewsidler/1536_1/x2.jpg Again, the texture is not a strictly polyphonic one. Filling out chords for lute music played with a plectrum may be seen in the Pesaro manuscipt kept at the Biblioteca Oliveriana. I'm afraid I don't know if any of the music is available on the internet. There is a facsimile in print, but unfortunately I don't have a copy. You can see some of the music in facsimile in the booklet which accompanies Andrea Dammiani's CD of music from that manuscript, CD EL962305. The music in this manuscript dates from the latter part of the 15th century. The trouble with plectrums (as with bows on a viol) is that you are forced into playing chords involving notes on adjacent strings. For example, one piece ends as follows: |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ | |\ |\ |\ | | | | | | | | | | | _1___1___ _1___5___1___ _4___2___1___2___1___2___ _3___3___ _3___3___ _1___ That was in Neapolitan tablature. It would look like this in French tablature: |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ | |\ |\ |\ | | | | | | | | | | | _a___a___ _a___e___a___ _d___b___a___b___a___b___ _c___c___ _c___c___ _a___ A strictly polyphonic version playable with fingers may have been something like: |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ |\ | |\ |\ |\ | | | | | | | | | | | _a___a___ _e___ _d___b___a___b___a___ _c___c___ _c___ _a___ There are so many examples of chord progressions throughout the 16th century, it is difficult to know where to start. Paccaloni's lute trios is a happy hunting ground, as is Diego Ortiz's book of improvisation on the viol. As I understand it, during the 15th century temperament changed from one which had favoured perfect fifths to one which favoured major thirds. Composers like Machaut in the 14th century had tended to avoid major triads, whereas composers like Dufay in the 15th century made great use of them. Instrumentalists filling out a polyphonic texture with triads soon followed. I regard this fundamental change in temperament a far more significant milestone in the history of music than the transition from renaissance to baroque. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Chris Despopoulos [mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com] Sent: 19 November 2010 07:30 To: Stewart McCoy Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence Dear Stewart... You say: "Some of the dance pieces in Dalza's collection of lute music (1508) are based on simple grounds or chord sequences, and we have strumming of sorts on the lute with Newsidler's Durchstreicher in 1536." I find this interesting. In my reading of 2nd- and probably 3rd-hand sources (or even further removed), I'm led to believe that grounding musical structure on chordal progression was an innovation of the Baroque... if not THE innovation. Of course, drawing distinct lines between phases of musical development is no easier than drawing distinct lines between species. But for the unwashed that's a helpful distinction. I wonder if you can amplify a little on the above to shed light on the transition... For example, was there a gradual build-up that led away from voice textures to chord textures? Or was this a punctuated transition -- an explosion of forms and variations, if you will? The dance pieces you mention, being simple and probably repeated cycles (I'm guessing), make sense as examples where musicians would recognize that voice textures yield repeated patterns (chords or triads), and can be simplified. Also, I wonder if there's any hope of accessing popular music of the time -- was it all modal, or were
[VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence
Dear Monica, The changes you describe came much earlier. Adding contrapuntal parts to a tenor was the sort of thing musicians were doing at the end of the 15th and early part of the 16th century. The most popular tenor at that time seems to have been La Spagna. It is significant that Diego Ortiz treats this old tenor as a bass line in 1553. Triads were not new in the 17th century. They had certainly been around a lot earlier than that, and were pretty well established by the 15th century. Composers like Dufay made much use of them. You have only to look at 15th-century pieces played on the lute with a plectrum to see how a polyphonic texture was filled out here and there with triadic chords. Some of the dance pieces in Dalza's collection of lute music (1508) are based on simple grounds or chord sequences, and we have strumming of sorts on the lute with Newsidler's Durchstreicher in 1536. -o-O-o- As far as strumming on the guitar is concerned, the actual notes played cannot always be notated accurately, because a skilled strummer will not strike all the strings of a chord every time. He may, for example, choose to strike all the strings for a strong down-stroke, but catch just the first few strings with a lighter strum on the up-stroke. The limitations of notating strumming: 1) It is possible to say what the chord is, by giving an alfabeto symbol (e.g. A, B, C), or a chord name (G, C, D7), or tablature of various kinds, or staff notation, or chord shapes like this: | | | | | | |__|__|__|__|__| | | | | | | |__|__|__x__|__x | | | | | | |__|__|__|__x__| | | | | | | | | | | | | 2) It is possible to notate the direction of strums (up and down), and, as you know, there were different ways of doing this in the 17th century. 3) It is impossible to say exactly how many strings are actually struck at any one time. This is what all the various notations fail to convey accurately. Anyone writing about strumming would find it difficult to describe what is, by its very nature, a fluid, variable technique. To strum all the strings all the time would be dreadfully dull. I can happily accept Lex's view that a player would have been selective in which strings he chose to strum at any particular time, and that he would have been aware (to a greater or lesser extent) of the effect his bourdons, assuming he had them, may have had in the course of a piece, irrespective of whether or not he could read the notes in staff notation printed under his alfabeto. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 17 November 2010 17:14 To: Lex Eisenhardt Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence > Our ready ear is very much influenced/spoiled by functional harmony, > I'm afraid. I suppose it went wrong so often (then) because the trick > of finding the appropriate harmonies was to add 'middle voices' to a > bass and soprano. I think you are mistaken here because throughout the 16th century general practice was to add contrapuntal parts to a tenor voice. The shift to working from the bass took place at the beginning of the 17th century. The practice of basso continuo was new and not well established at the time many of these songs were composed. It started off as a way of creating a keyboard accompaniment to mainly polyphonic works. Underlying this discussion is the idea that it is somehow inferior or amateurish to accompany the songs in this way. This in my view shows a lack of historical insight and sensitivity to changes taking place at the time. A kind of 21st century superior and censorious attitude to what people did in the past. Triadic harmony was new, original, exciting and in tune with other developments taking place at the time i.e. accompanied monody. The guitar was ideally suited to be part of this change and certainly contributed to developments in harmonic thinking. It is of its time. It is not helpful to suggest that "the harmonic language of alfabeto is somewhat one-dimensional." This is a bit like saying that Wagner's music is superior to that of Mozart because he used larger forces and more complex and colourful harmony. An evolutionary view of musical history which went out of fashion in England years ago. > If we are trying to figure out what was possibly done in the 1620s and > 30s, to reach an optimal performance of the most beautiful songs, > respecting the > ambience they were performed in, then we should not only think of what > the general strumming public did. No.. we should think about what writers at the time said about what they were trying to achieve. I have already quoted Marini and Milanuzzi who presumably prepared their own books for the press and indicate that they thought it was necessary and satisfactory to suggest a different way of accompanying on the guitar.Do you think they were w
[VIHUELA] Valdambrini's evidence
Monica writes: 'Valdambrini's first book was printed in Rome seven years after Landi died (1646). He not only gives instructions for re-entrant tuning but clearly states that the instrument has no basses.' Also of course she might have added that he very clearly indicates octaves in the Avvertimenti (both in Italian AND French tablature) thus once again confirming fully re-entrant for his music. As a further aside, I like V's penchant for carefully controlled strumming (ie not 'thrashing') - clearly he had an advanced technique allowing him to exclude certain courses at will(partial strumming). Many examples such as second book: bottom of page 29 in the variatione on a ciaccona. I've previously suggested this was a well established practice by 1646 - at least for some if not for Colonna and Sanseverino. M. --- On Mon, 15/11/10, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Stefano Landi To: "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Monday, 15 November, 2010, 8:32 > We don't know which tuning predominated in the circles around Landi, > for example. Well - we have some ideas. One of his contemporaries in Rome was Kapsberger, and it was from Kapsberger that Mersenne obtained his information about how the guitar was strung - i.e. with a fully re-entrant tuning. Kapsberger published two books of guitar music now lost. Valdambrini's first book was printed in Rome seven years after Landi died (1646). He not only gives instructions for re-entrant tuning but clearly states that the instrument has no basses. Kircher gives the re-entrant tuning in Musurgia Universalis printed in Rome 1650. And of course rather later Sanz also says that guitarists in Rome used the re-entrant tuning. Just straws in the wind.. From our XXIc position it is difficult to know exactly who > used what tuning, or which composer was exposed to one way of tuning or > the other. If one way of stringing is very usual among your friends or > in your town there would be no reason to say anything about it. Therein lies the problem. If none of us can be certain a position of relativity is inevitable. The relativity is ours rather than theirs. > It supposes that in the 17th century 'they' had a sort of relativism, > with respect to the tuning and theoretical issues. The first attempts > of Focarini and Corbetta from around 1640, to apply the figures and > voice-leading of basso continuo on the guitar, give a different > picture. In what way? Even if this was so in what way is it relevant to what players did earlier? Monica > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
