[VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] [VIHUELA] vihuela de péndola
Thanks for the translation. I think you have done rather better than E.K. Kane whose translation of the poem I read many years ago! Monica - Original Message - From: John Griffiths jag...@unimelb.edu.au To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 10:36 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] [VIHUELA] vihuela de péndola sota is probably more a rhyme word than having a literal meaning, and is probably means at the bottom, i.e. at the end of the list. The sota is the card equivalent to a jack in Spanish playing cards, hence it is customarily referred to as being at the bottom of the pack. The strophe goes: El rabe gritador con su alta nota Cavel el orabin taniendo la su rota El salterio con ellos mas alta que la mota La bihuela de pendola con aquestos y sota. It means (more or less) The screaming rabel with its high [=loud?] note Zabel the rabbi playing his rote [ for the sake of rhyme] The psaltery with them, higher than the moat, [ie the dyke] The vihuela de penola together with them, at the end [Sorry, I couldn't make it rhyme] Good wishes, John On 23/05/2009, at 3:04, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Hmmm . . . Now it's even more fascinating. Thanks, Jocelyn ___ From: Monica Hall [1][1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:53:33 -0400 To: Nelson, Jocelyn [2][2]nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist [3][3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] vihuela de pendola Well - it seems a bit obscure - but sota according to my dictionary means Jack, knave, hussy or brazen woman. So it could translate as la vyuela de pendola con aquestos y sota The vihuela de pendola with these and a knave/etc. Fill in your own - but it might help to have the rest of the verse. Monica - Original Message - From: Nelson, Jocelyn [4][4]nels...@ecu.edu To: Rob MacKillop [5][5]luteplay...@googlemail.com; Vihuela [6][6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 5:07 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] vihuela de pendola Hi Rob, Thank you for this fascinating reference. Can you, or someone on the list, translate the rest of the phrase for me? Babel Fish isn't helping . . . Many thanks, Jocelyn ___ From: Rob MacKillop [1][7][7]luteplay...@googlemail.com Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 03:56:58 -0400 To: Vihuela [2][8][8]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] vihuela de pendola OK, we know quite a bit about the vihuelas de arco and de mano, but what about the vihuela de pendola - plectrum? There is not much in English online, but I did find one reference to a poem by lArchipretre de Hita (1330): la vyuela de pendola con aquestos y sota Now, 1330 seems early, but possible. The technique seems to have faded out by the late 1400's, and, of course, there is no surviving dedicated repertoire. I am assuming no structural difference over the vihuela de mano or viola da mano, just a different technique - but I might be completely wrong. Maybe it had fewer courses? Maybe not? I imagine it was used in ensemble with harps, lutes, other vihuelas (mano and arco), etc, etc, and with voices. Was it confined to Spain, certain parts of Spain, or was it also used in Spanish dominions in Italy, or elsewhere? Any relation to the medieval citole? Are there any images which clearly show the pendola in use? Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3][9][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [10][10]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/luteplay...@googlemail.c om 2. [11][11]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [12][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [13]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. [14]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/nels...@ecu.edu 3. [15]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. [16]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/nels...@ecu.edu 5. [17]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/luteplay...@googlemail.com 6. [18]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. [19]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/luteplay...@googlemail.com 8. [20]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. [21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. [22]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/luteplay...@googlemail.com
[VIHUELA] vihuela de péndola
OK, we know quite a bit about the vihuelas de arco and de mano, but what about the vihuela de pendola - plectrum? There is not much in English online, but I did find one reference to a poem by lArchipretre de Hita (1330): la vyuela de pendola con aquestos y sota Now, 1330 seems early, but possible. The technique seems to have faded out by the late 1400's, and, of course, there is no surviving dedicated repertoire. I am assuming no structural difference over the vihuela de mano or viola da mano, just a different technique - but I might be completely wrong. Maybe it had fewer courses? Maybe not? I imagine it was used in ensemble with harps, lutes, other vihuelas (mano and arco), etc, etc, and with voices. Was it confined to Spain, certain parts of Spain, or was it also used in Spanish dominions in Italy, or elsewhere? Any relation to the medieval citole? Are there any images which clearly show the pendola in use? Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] vihuela de péndola
Hi Rob, Thank you for this fascinating reference. Can you, or someone on the list, translate the rest of the phrase for me? Babel Fish isn't helping . . . Many thanks, Jocelyn ___ From: Rob MacKillop [1]luteplay...@googlemail.com Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 03:56:58 -0400 To: Vihuela [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] vihuela de pendola OK, we know quite a bit about the vihuelas de arco and de mano, but what about the vihuela de pendola - plectrum? There is not much in English online, but I did find one reference to a poem by lArchipretre de Hita (1330): la vyuela de pendola con aquestos y sota Now, 1330 seems early, but possible. The technique seems to have faded out by the late 1400's, and, of course, there is no surviving dedicated repertoire. I am assuming no structural difference over the vihuela de mano or viola da mano, just a different technique - but I might be completely wrong. Maybe it had fewer courses? Maybe not? I imagine it was used in ensemble with harps, lutes, other vihuelas (mano and arco), etc, etc, and with voices. Was it confined to Spain, certain parts of Spain, or was it also used in Spanish dominions in Italy, or elsewhere? Any relation to the medieval citole? Are there any images which clearly show the pendola in use? Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/luteplay...@googlemail.com 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] vihuela de péndola
Well - it seems a bit obscure - but sota according to my dictionary means Jack, knave, hussy or brazen woman. So it could translate as la vyuela de pendola con aquestos y sota The vihuela de pendola with these and a knave/etc. Fill in your own - but it might help to have the rest of the verse. Monica - Original Message - From: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu To: Rob MacKillop luteplay...@googlemail.com; Vihuela vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 5:07 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] vihuela de péndola Hi Rob, Thank you for this fascinating reference. Can you, or someone on the list, translate the rest of the phrase for me? Babel Fish isn't helping . . . Many thanks, Jocelyn ___ From: Rob MacKillop [1]luteplay...@googlemail.com Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 03:56:58 -0400 To: Vihuela [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] vihuela de pendola OK, we know quite a bit about the vihuelas de arco and de mano, but what about the vihuela de pendola - plectrum? There is not much in English online, but I did find one reference to a poem by lArchipretre de Hita (1330): la vyuela de pendola con aquestos y sota Now, 1330 seems early, but possible. The technique seems to have faded out by the late 1400's, and, of course, there is no surviving dedicated repertoire. I am assuming no structural difference over the vihuela de mano or viola da mano, just a different technique - but I might be completely wrong. Maybe it had fewer courses? Maybe not? I imagine it was used in ensemble with harps, lutes, other vihuelas (mano and arco), etc, etc, and with voices. Was it confined to Spain, certain parts of Spain, or was it also used in Spanish dominions in Italy, or elsewhere? Any relation to the medieval citole? Are there any images which clearly show the pendola in use? Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/luteplay...@googlemail.com 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] [VIHUELA] vihuela de péndola
I found the quotation on Google Books: [1]http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Hah-dlM2sn0Cpg=PA108lpg=PA108d q=vihuela+de+pendolasource=blots=JcAkxkFIeUsig=wEj8-fm5bSLF1lokbQK0y Cnpauchl=enei=4OwWSuyFF5DQjAep0qiBDQsa=Xoi=book_resultct=resultre snum=6 or [2]http://tinyurl.com/o95873 - hopefully one of those links will work. It is from a book called Instruments a cordes du Moyen Age by Fondation Royaumont. I've not seen any more of the poem. I vaguely remember Bermudo mentioning the vihuela de pendola - has anyone got a quotation for us? Someone else mentioned that pendola means feather - so that gives us a good idea of what was used. Rob -- References 1. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Hah-dlM2sn0Cpg=PA108lpg=PA108dq=vihuela+de+pendolasource=blots=JcAkxkFIeUsig=wEj8-fm5bSLF1lokbQK0yCnpauchl=enei=4OwWSuyFF5DQjAep0qiBDQsa=Xoi=book_resultct=resultresnum=6 2. http://tinyurl.com/o95873 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] [VIHUELA] vihuela de péndola
I don't remember anything in Bermudo. There is a reference in a book printed in 1490 which mentions Apolo playing the guitarra (whatever that might be in 1490) e tanesse muchos suaves instrumentos de musica e senaladamente la guitarra, con su propio pulgar, dexada la penola. in other words he played many sweet musical instruments and especially the guitar - with his own thumb, leaving off the plectrum. penola is a quill - the same thing as a feather I suppose. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Rob MacKillop To: [2]Nelson, Jocelyn Cc: [3]Monica Hall ; [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 7:29 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] [VIHUELA] vihuela de pendola I found the quotation on Google Books: [5]http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Hah-dlM2sn0Cpg=PA108lpg=PA108d q=vihuela+de+pendolasource=blots=JcAkxkFIeUsig=wEj8-fm5bSLF1lokbQK0y Cnpauchl=enei=4OwWSuyFF5DQjAep0qiBDQsa=Xoi=book_resultct=resultre snum=6 or [6]http://tinyurl.com/o95873 - hopefully one of those links will work. It is from a book called Instruments a cordes du Moyen Age by Fondation Royaumont. I've not seen any more of the poem. I vaguely remember Bermudo mentioning the vihuela de pendola - has anyone got a quotation for us? Someone else mentioned that pendola means feather - so that gives us a good idea of what was used. Rob -- References 1. mailto:luteplay...@googlemail.com 2. mailto:nels...@ecu.edu 3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Hah-dlM2sn0Cpg=PA108lpg=PA108dq=vihuela+de+pendolasource=blots=JcAkxkFIeUsig=wEj8-fm5bSLF1lokbQK0yCnpauchl=enei=4OwWSuyFF5DQjAep0qiBDQsa=Xoi=book_resultct=resultresnum=6 6. http://tinyurl.com/o95873 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] [VIHUELA] vihuela de péndola
I found the whole verse and a rather free translation --- El rabe gritador con la su alta nota Cabel el orabin taniendo la su rota El salterio con ellos mas alto que la mota La vihuela de pendola con qeustos y sota (Sorry no accents) A squeaky Persion fiddle (!) came to wail its highest note And play the piece My arab heart as well as could a rote The psaltery with its many strings o'ertopped them like a boat But with its pick the merry viol danced with them like a goat. I guess he translated sota as goat as it rhymes with rote, note and boat! Monica - Original Message - From: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 6:04 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] [VIHUELA] vihuela de péndola Hmmm . . . Now it's even more fascinating. Thanks, Jocelyn ___ From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:53:33 -0400 To: Nelson, Jocelyn [2]nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] vihuela de pendola Well - it seems a bit obscure - but sota according to my dictionary means Jack, knave, hussy or brazen woman. So it could translate as la vyuela de pendola con aquestos y sota The vihuela de pendola with these and a knave/etc. Fill in your own - but it might help to have the rest of the verse. Monica - Original Message - From: Nelson, Jocelyn [4]nels...@ecu.edu To: Rob MacKillop [5]luteplay...@googlemail.com; Vihuela [6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 5:07 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] vihuela de pendola Hi Rob, Thank you for this fascinating reference. Can you, or someone on the list, translate the rest of the phrase for me? Babel Fish isn't helping . . . Many thanks, Jocelyn ___ From: Rob MacKillop [1][7]luteplay...@googlemail.com Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 03:56:58 -0400 To: Vihuela [2][8]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] vihuela de pendola OK, we know quite a bit about the vihuelas de arco and de mano, but what about the vihuela de pendola - plectrum? There is not much in English online, but I did find one reference to a poem by lArchipretre de Hita (1330): la vyuela de pendola con aquestos y sota Now, 1330 seems early, but possible. The technique seems to have faded out by the late 1400's, and, of course, there is no surviving dedicated repertoire. I am assuming no structural difference over the vihuela de mano or viola da mano, just a different technique - but I might be completely wrong. Maybe it had fewer courses? Maybe not? I imagine it was used in ensemble with harps, lutes, other vihuelas (mano and arco), etc, etc, and with voices. Was it confined to Spain, certain parts of Spain, or was it also used in Spanish dominions in Italy, or elsewhere? Any relation to the medieval citole? Are there any images which clearly show the pendola in use? Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [10]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/luteplay...@googlemail.com 2. [11]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/nels...@ecu.edu 3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/nels...@ecu.edu 5. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/luteplay...@googlemail.com 6. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/luteplay...@googlemail.com 8. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/luteplay...@googlemail.com 11. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] vihuela de péndola
Thanks, Stuart. I've heard quite a bit of music like that, and enjoy improvising it as well. I'm sure you are right in that similar things were done on the vihuela. I imagine all those examples from Ortiz could be adapted too. I've played vihuela with a viol consort, and although I could be heard, it was a struggle. A plectrum is one of the simplest amplification systems on the market, and worth exploring. There doesn't seem much point doubling what all the viols are doing. Improvising variations to vocal lines would be more enjoyable, although initially daunting, maybe. Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] [VIHUELA] vihuela de péndola
sota is probably more a rhyme word than having a literal meaning, and is probably means at the bottom, i.e. at the end of the list. The sota is the card equivalent to a jack in Spanish playing cards, hence it is customarily referred to as being at the bottom of the pack. The strophe goes: El rabe gritador con su alta nota Cavel el orabin taniendo la su rota El salterio con ellos mas alta que la mota La bihuela de pendola con aquestos y sota. It means (more or less) The screaming rabel with its high [=loud?] note Zabel the rabbi playing his rote [ for the sake of rhyme] The psaltery with them, higher than the moat, [ie the dyke] The vihuela de penola together with them, at the end [Sorry, I couldn't make it rhyme] Good wishes, John On 23/05/2009, at 3:04, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Hmmm . . . Now it's even more fascinating. Thanks, Jocelyn ___ From: Monica Hall [1][1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:53:33 -0400 To: Nelson, Jocelyn [2][2]nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist [3][3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] vihuela de pendola Well - it seems a bit obscure - but sota according to my dictionary means Jack, knave, hussy or brazen woman. So it could translate as la vyuela de pendola con aquestos y sota The vihuela de pendola with these and a knave/etc. Fill in your own - but it might help to have the rest of the verse. Monica - Original Message - From: Nelson, Jocelyn [4][4]nels...@ecu.edu To: Rob MacKillop [5][5]luteplay...@googlemail.com; Vihuela [6][6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 5:07 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: [VIHUELA] vihuela de pendola Hi Rob, Thank you for this fascinating reference. Can you, or someone on the list, translate the rest of the phrase for me? Babel Fish isn't helping . . . Many thanks, Jocelyn ___ From: Rob MacKillop [1][7][7]luteplay...@googlemail.com Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 03:56:58 -0400 To: Vihuela [2][8][8]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] vihuela de pendola OK, we know quite a bit about the vihuelas de arco and de mano, but what about the vihuela de pendola - plectrum? There is not much in English online, but I did find one reference to a poem by lArchipretre de Hita (1330): la vyuela de pendola con aquestos y sota Now, 1330 seems early, but possible. The technique seems to have faded out by the late 1400's, and, of course, there is no surviving dedicated repertoire. I am assuming no structural difference over the vihuela de mano or viola da mano, just a different technique - but I might be completely wrong. Maybe it had fewer courses? Maybe not? I imagine it was used in ensemble with harps, lutes, other vihuelas (mano and arco), etc, etc, and with voices. Was it confined to Spain, certain parts of Spain, or was it also used in Spanish dominions in Italy, or elsewhere? Any relation to the medieval citole? Are there any images which clearly show the pendola in use? Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3][9][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [10][10]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/luteplay...@googlemail.c om 2. [11][11]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [12][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [13]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. [14]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/nels...@ecu.edu 3. [15]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. [16]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/nels...@ecu.edu 5. [17]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/luteplay...@googlemail.com 6. [18]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. [19]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/luteplay...@googlemail.com 8. [20]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. [21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. [22]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/luteplay...@googlemail.com 11. [23]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. [24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ___
