RE: Dedillo
Hi- my theory is that dedillo was used first because it is what you do when you are used to playing with a plectrum and decide to try fingers. That way, the thumb is held against the index finger as if you are holding a pick, but then you use the index finger tip instead of the pick that could be held there with the same hand position. I know a very good jazz guitarist who dabbles in flamenco and classical and when a scale needs to be played, he plays it that way, refusing to practice alternation with i and m. Having said that, I have experimented with dedillo, mostly on the Milan fantasies that call for it, on both vihuela and guitar and never got very satisfactory speed or sound. It sort of feels like if you spent hours a day practicing it, you could get it to work, but I never spent that much time on it to see if it was worth the time and effort. Since the back-and-forth pick action sound also happens with p-i alternation, the only difference with dedillo would be the inconsistent tone of flesh alternating with back of nail. So I think it was a temporary historical technique as plectrum players started to become finger players and before they discovered alternation with two fingers for scale passages, p-i and then later i-m (which Fuenllana thought most perfect). Dante >-Original Message- >From: Rob MacKillop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 4:49 PM >To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: Dedillo > > >Martyn sent me this: > >To get back to the Vihuela, - do you know anyone who plays dedillo >(I think >that's the term)? ie running passages played with index alone: >I've tried, > >and failed - dismally. > >Thanks and rgds > >Martyn > >I sympathise with Martyn. Dedillo can sound awful, and I have to say I try >it every once in a while but always with the same results. Not to >my liking. >I think it works best if the nail is a little bit long. I have seen a few >folk guitar players use the technique, but it sounds pretty lousy to my >ears, although it doesn't 'jump out' as it does when I use it. I guess that >is because the tone they produce generally is pretty rough. I imagine there >was a great variety amongst players in the 16th century regarding tone >production. Most of us arrive at vihuela via lute or classical >guitar, where >we have spent years trying to 'improve' our tone. Dedillo seems like a step >backwards. But maybe I just can't do it properly! > >Anyone out there had success with this technique? > >Rob >www.rmguitar.co.uk > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
RE: Dedillo
Interesting topic! So you want to know how to play dedillo? >:) If you live in the U.S., just go to a good Mexican restaurant with a good Mariachi band. I was in a local restaurant a few months ago and the duo who was serenading the patrons had stopped at our table. I observed that the one player was executing all sorts of scale type divisions while using only his index finger. He was very good. He apparently teaches as well. I briefly thought about a few lessons for dedillo, but I think I would just end up playing poorly both thumb under and dedillo. Ironically, I asked the duo if they could play "Guardame las Vacas" and received blank stares. My Spanish pronunciation isn't that bad At any rate, dedillo apparently is a thriving technique among certain factions of the Mariachi crowd. I don't know how viable looking up Mariachi groups in the UK would be. On another ( my current favorite ) topic: Does anyone have tempo suggestions for the Paez "Bacas" ? I know the current fashion is to play at light speed, but there are some nice, delicate cadences in there that might get lost! And lastly, I know that "Guardame las Vacas" is a Romanesca, but does anyone know if there actually was a folk tune of that name? I know I've asked this over the years, but I've never gotten a definitive answer. Did it originally have lyrics? Garry -Original Message- From: Rob MacKillop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 4:49 PM To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Dedillo Martyn sent me this: To get back to the Vihuela, - do you know anyone who plays dedillo (I think that's the term)? ie running passages played with index alone: I've tried, and failed - dismally. Thanks and rgds Martyn I sympathise with Martyn. Dedillo can sound awful, and I have to say I try it every once in a while but always with the same results. Not to my liking. I think it works best if the nail is a little bit long. I have seen a few folk guitar players use the technique, but it sounds pretty lousy to my ears, although it doesn't 'jump out' as it does when I use it. I guess that is because the tone they produce generally is pretty rough. I imagine there was a great variety amongst players in the 16th century regarding tone production. Most of us arrive at vihuela via lute or classical guitar, where we have spent years trying to 'improve' our tone. Dedillo seems like a step backwards. But maybe I just can't do it properly! Anyone out there had success with this technique? Rob www.rmguitar.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: Dedillo
never heard of it before - thanks a lot. just tried it - as described by dante - on the charango and it worked very nicely in conjunction with rasgueo. sort of an acoustic reverb. - bill --- Dante Rosati <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi- > > my theory is that dedillo was used first because it > is what you do when you > are used to playing with a plectrum and decide to > try fingers. That way, the > thumb is held against the index finger as if you are > holding a pick, but > then you use the index finger tip instead of the > pick that could be held > there with the same hand position. I know a very > good jazz guitarist who > dabbles in flamenco and classical and when a scale > needs to be played, he > plays it that way, refusing to practice alternation > with i and m. > > Having said that, I have experimented with dedillo, > mostly on the Milan > fantasies that call for it, on both vihuela and > guitar and never got very > satisfactory speed or sound. It sort of feels like > if you spent hours a day > practicing it, you could get it to work, but I never > spent that much time on > it to see if it was worth the time and effort. Since > the back-and-forth pick > action sound also happens with p-i alternation, the > only difference with > dedillo would be the inconsistent tone of flesh > alternating with back of > nail. > > So I think it was a temporary historical technique > as plectrum players > started to become finger players and before they > discovered alternation with > two fingers for scale passages, p-i and then later > i-m (which Fuenllana > thought most perfect). > > Dante > > >-Original Message- > >From: Rob MacKillop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 4:49 PM > >To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu > >Subject: Dedillo > > > > > >Martyn sent me this: > > > >To get back to the Vihuela, - do you know anyone > who plays dedillo > >(I think > >that's the term)? ie running passages played with > index alone: > >I've tried, > > > >and failed - dismally. > > > >Thanks and rgds > > > >Martyn > > > >I sympathise with Martyn. Dedillo can sound awful, > and I have to say I try > >it every once in a while but always with the same > results. Not to > >my liking. > >I think it works best if the nail is a little bit > long. I have seen a few > >folk guitar players use the technique, but it > sounds pretty lousy to my > >ears, although it doesn't 'jump out' as it does > when I use it. I guess that > >is because the tone they produce generally is > pretty rough. I imagine there > >was a great variety amongst players in the 16th > century regarding tone > >production. Most of us arrive at vihuela via lute > or classical > >guitar, where > >we have spent years trying to 'improve' our tone. > Dedillo seems like a step > >backwards. But maybe I just can't do it properly! > > > >Anyone out there had success with this technique? > > > >Rob > >www.rmguitar.co.uk > > > > > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > ___ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Re: Dedillo
This is an interesting point. I have never heard anyone perform the dedillo successfully, with the exception of Ronn McFarlane, who (if my memory serves me correctly) used it on some Milan pieces in an older solo CD of his. Other than that, I know of nobody who now uses it. ed At 09:49 PM 6/8/2005 +0100, Rob MacKillop wrote: >Martyn sent me this: > >To get back to the Vihuela, - do you know anyone who plays dedillo (I think >that's the term)? ie running passages played with index alone: I've tried, > >and failed - dismally. > >Thanks and rgds > >Martyn > >I sympathise with Martyn. Dedillo can sound awful, and I have to say I try >it every once in a while but always with the same results. Not to my liking. >I think it works best if the nail is a little bit long. I have seen a few >folk guitar players use the technique, but it sounds pretty lousy to my >ears, although it doesn't 'jump out' as it does when I use it. I guess that >is because the tone they produce generally is pretty rough. I imagine there >was a great variety amongst players in the 16th century regarding tone >production. Most of us arrive at vihuela via lute or classical guitar, where >we have spent years trying to 'improve' our tone. Dedillo seems like a step >backwards. But maybe I just can't do it properly! > >Anyone out there had success with this technique? > >Rob >www.rmguitar.co.uk > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
Re: Dedillo
Dear Ed, Rob and All: Isn't all Indian sitar playing dedillo? That is, I believe the strings are plucked exclusively with the right-hand index finger, onto which is fitted a pointed wire loop, which serves as a plectrum. (Shades of Francesco's silver thimbles!) There must be somebody out there who knows more about this than I do My point is not that there is any connection between the art forms, only that the great Indian musicians have demonstrated that it is possible to produce virtuoso music with this technique, albeit with a plectrum of sorts. Cheers, Jim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Dedillo
Dear All, If I remember correctly, Piccinini (1623) used it on the liuto attiorbato as well. Best wishes, Martin James A Stimson wrote: > > >Dear Ed, Rob and All: > Isn't all Indian sitar playing dedillo? That is, I believe the strings are >plucked exclusively with the right-hand index finger, onto which is fitted >a pointed wire loop, which serves as a plectrum. (Shades of Francesco's >silver thimbles!) There must be somebody out there who knows more about >this than I do > My point is not that there is any connection between the art forms, only >that the great Indian musicians have demonstrated that it is possible to >produce virtuoso music with this technique, albeit with a plectrum of >sorts. >Cheers, >Jim > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >
Re: Dedillo
thanks to howard, i now have a better idea of what this is. in dance music particularly, it could be an attractive way to state the melody in contrast to a rhythmic passage. - bill --- Martin Shepherd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear All, > > If I remember correctly, Piccinini (1623) used it on > the liuto > attiorbato as well. > > Best wishes, > > Martin > > James A Stimson wrote: > > > > > > >Dear Ed, Rob and All: > > Isn't all Indian sitar playing dedillo? That is, I > believe the strings are > >plucked exclusively with the right-hand index > finger, onto which is fitted > >a pointed wire loop, which serves as a plectrum. > (Shades of Francesco's > >silver thimbles!) There must be somebody out there > who knows more about > >this than I do > > My point is not that there is any connection > between the art forms, only > >that the great Indian musicians have demonstrated > that it is possible to > >produce virtuoso music with this technique, albeit > with a plectrum of > >sorts. > >Cheers, > >Jim > > > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > > > ___ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Re: Dedillo
I think I can hear Jacob Heringman doing a successful dedillo passage on his Luis Milan (songs) recording in some of the fantasia solos. Kenneth In a message dated 6/8/2005 10:22:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This is an interesting point. I have never heard anyone perform the dedillo successfully, with the exception of Ronn McFarlane, who (if my memory serves me correctly) used it on some Milan pieces in an older solo CD of his. Other than that, I know of nobody who now uses it. ed -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: dedillo
That's right Peter. And where did I see a painting of a lute player (Mersenne?) with a plectrum tied to his index finger? Is it in the Grove entry on the lute? Rob -Original Message- From: Peter Forrester [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12 June 2005 17:17 To: vihuela and baroque guitar Subject: dedillo To the "plectrum/dedillo" list could be added Mersenne's four course mandore, where he mentions the possibility of a plectrum tied to a finger. (On a plectrum instrument this would also have the effect of freeing the thumb enabling the playing of chords with holes on this mandore and four course citterns.) Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: dedillo
Here it is: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/html/Page%20415.html ..care of Robert Spencer, OUP and David Van Edwards. Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: dedillo
it's difficult for me to see the details properly but following david hockney's "secret knowledge" expose on the painterly use of prisms and mirrors, the "left" hand in the illustration may be a reflection of a "right" hand. sweet dreams. - bill --- Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > OK. That's the left hand! Do I win a prize? I must > be thinking of another > painting... > Rob > PS I'm going to bed now... > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > ___ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: dedillo
> it's difficult for me to see the details properly but > following david hockney's "secret knowledge" expose on > the painterly use of prisms and mirrors, Hockney's "expose" has already been debunked, many times over. RT http://polyhymnion.org ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Dedillo
> The sound quality of dedillo is, I think, unsatisfactory, because of > the difference in sound between strings plucked by the nail and the > flesh of the finger. If the vihuelists also found it unsatisfactory, > why did they play dedillo? The only compensatory factor I can think > of is speed. In other words, dedillo enables you to play faster than > alternating two digits, whether thumb and index, or middle and > index. Could it be that (some of the) vihuelists were playing with nails? Then there would not have been so much difference in the sound of up- and downstroke. The tip joint of the index can still move if the thumb supports the finger at the middle joint, just giving enough support to enable you to only include the fingertip in the movement and not so much the whole finger. > I just wonder if the vihuelists resorted > to dedillo, simply because their thumb-outside technique prevented > them from getting enough speed for those really flashy runs. Foreign > thumb-insiders didn't need dedillo, because they could already play > fast enough with their thumb-inside technique. The difference in speed may also be caused by the use of the two fingers, instead of the thumb and index, and not so much by thumb-inside or -outside. But clearly when playng thumb-out, with two fingers different muscles are involved, mainly the fingers do the job and not the arm. In the music of most vihuelists there are not many fast runs, it may have to do with the preferred hand position. Milan and Mudarra may have had a different, 'archaic' approach in this respect. Mudarra is interesting while he asks for dedillo only in descending runs, and 'dos dedos' (thumb-index) for ascending. It may have to do with the advantage of the weight of the arm in the ascending movement. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Dedillo
Piccinini says (Cap. XXXI): > > Le Tirate segno dello Strascino, si faranno come ho gia deto di sopra > nel Cap. XXV. e li gruppi similmente strascinati riescano assai bene, ma > sono però inscipidi, e perciò a farli con un deto si come pur si è detto > al Cap. IX. riescano ancor in Eccelenza nel Chitarrone spiccati equali, > veloci, è netti ma fino hora non sono usati da nissuno, se non forse, > per mio conseglio. > He was a nailguy. In his finest hours practising gruppi spiccati... He wrote in Cap. IX that he plays the gruppo with the index only, hitting the string up and down with the tip of the nail. This works very well because of its 'politezza' (smooth surface?) and velocity. He explains that he can even do the trick while playing a second voice with the thumb at the same time, as in the end of his first ricercare (p.32). Reminds me of what Yamashita did in the 'pictures' by Moussorgsky. L. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Dedillo/redobles
is dedillo the same as redobles - fast, single line passage(s)? one could work up a good sized blister on the end of your finger doing this - real quick. a pick is so much better. - bill --- James A Stimson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Dear Ed, Rob and All: > Isn't all Indian sitar playing dedillo? That is, I > believe the strings are > plucked exclusively with the right-hand index > finger, onto which is fitted > a pointed wire loop, which serves as a plectrum. > (Shades of Francesco's > silver thimbles!) There must be somebody out there > who knows more about > this than I do > My point is not that there is any connection > between the art forms, only > that the great Indian musicians have demonstrated > that it is possible to > produce virtuoso music with this technique, albeit > with a plectrum of > sorts. > Cheers, > Jim > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > ___ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: Dedillo/redobles
bill kilpatrick wrote: > is dedillo the same as redobles - fast, single line > passage(s)? No. Dedillo is a way of playing passages of that sort using only the index finger, presumably in the manner of a plectrum. It's occasionally marked in vihuela sources. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
At 05:25 AM 10/30/2007, bill kilpatrick wrote: >not sure what the difference is between tremolo and >dedillo... Depending, both techniques can coincide. Dedillo is striking the string with both the up and downstroke, or both the contraction and extension, of a finger. Tremolo is the rapid repetition of a note; in the case of plucked strings, it's typically an effort to emulate a continuous, bow-like sustain. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
Hi all, The other two are do dedos (thumb and finger like most lutenists), and index and middle finger (like modern guitarists). The last was apparently Fuenllana's fingering of choice. Ralph - Original Message - From: bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:03 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo To: 'Vihuela Net' Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > archiving (is that a word?) problems from your address > might be "spam" related. it happened to me once and i > felt just awful about it (my italian server was to > blame ...) > > in ralph maier's excellent article there's a quote in > translation from miguel de fuenllana which mentions > "... three ways [in] which [they] customarily are > played on this instrument, the vihuela." only one - > dedillo - is elaborated. > > please, what are the other two? > > - bill > > --- Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Wayne has told me that the archive computer has > > decided it doesn't like > > me...and is refusing to archive my posts. I'm trying > > not to take this > > personally. > > > > BTW, Ralph Maier, he of the online article re > > dedillo (and excellent vihuela > > playing) has joined our list. Welcome, friend. > > > > Rob > > > > www.rmguitar.info > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ > > > > ___Yahoo! Answers - > Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it > now. > http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/ > > > --
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
At 06:27 PM 10/30/2007, RALPH MAIER wrote: >...and index and middle finger (like modern guitarists). The last was >apparently Fuenllana's fingering of choice. Intriguing. Also like what Guerau recommended for scalar passages on treble courses in his guitar book. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
thank you - my thumb over technigue doesn't exist and it's a relief to know that sig. fuenilana preferred the (to me, infinitly more natural) thumb-under. was the vihuela - any vihuela - ever played with a plectrum? bienvenuto - bill --- RALPH MAIER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi all, > > The other two are do dedos (thumb and finger like > most lutenists), and index and middle finger (like > modern guitarists). The last was apparently > Fuenllana's fingering of choice. > > Ralph > > - Original Message - > From: bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:03 pm > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo > To: 'Vihuela Net' > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > archiving (is that a word?) problems from your > address > > might be "spam" related. it happened to me once > and i > > felt just awful about it (my italian server was to > > blame ...) > > > > in ralph maier's excellent article there's a quote > in > > translation from miguel de fuenllana which > mentions > > "... three ways [in] which [they] customarily are > > played on this instrument, the vihuela." only one > - > > dedillo - is elaborated. > > > > please, what are the other two? > > > > - bill > > > > --- Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Wayne has told me that the archive computer has > > > decided it doesn't like > > > me...and is refusing to archive my posts. I'm > trying > > > not to take this > > > personally. > > > > > > BTW, Ralph Maier, he of the online article re > > > dedillo (and excellent vihuela > > > playing) has joined our list. Welcome, friend. > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > www.rmguitar.info > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information > at > > > > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > > http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > > > ___Yahoo! > Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows > the answer. Try it > > now. > > http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ ___ Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
Alternating thumb and index (apparently used by 'foreigners', according to Fuenllana) and alternating index and middle (the Spanish way). Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: bill kilpatrick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 October 2007 22:03 To: 'Vihuela Net' Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo archiving (is that a word?) problems from your address might be "spam" related. it happened to me once and i felt just awful about it (my italian server was to blame ...) in ralph maier's excellent article there's a quote in translation from miguel de fuenllana which mentions "... three ways [in] which [they] customarily are played on this instrument, the vihuela." only one - dedillo - is elaborated. please, what are the other two? - bill --- Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Wayne has told me that the archive computer has > decided it doesn't like > me...and is refusing to archive my posts. I'm trying > not to take this > personally. > > BTW, Ralph Maier, he of the online article re > dedillo (and excellent vihuela > playing) has joined our list. Welcome, friend. > > Rob > > www.rmguitar.info > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ ___ Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
At 07:00 PM 10/30/2007, Stuart Walsh wrote: >Is the vihuela the only instrument that uses this technique? I don't >think there is anything like it in 4 or 5 course guitar, or any kind of >lute, technique. There couldn't be anything in the construction of the >instrument that makes this a more likely possibility, could there? And >hats off to Ralph Maier for actually mastering it. > >Speaking only as an amateur: the whole business is trying to get the flesh >of the fingers to sound the strings. But the downward stroke of dedillo >seems like a crude bash with the nails. How do you square the considered >upward pluck of the fingers with - what could easily be- a rather >percussive chunk downwards with the thumb? Dedillo as tremolo is pretty common to modern classical guitar and perhaps even more common to flamenco (and, as Bill has offered, to chordal charango technique). I'm not certain how to interpret your latter paragraph, Stuart. The potential imbalance in tone is between the typical full-voiced upstroke of nail/flesh against the thinner-voiced downstroke of the same finger, back of nail only. To quote the fine detail of Ralph's article: [W]hen commencing a section of passage-work where dedillo has been indicated in the tablature, or where the passage seems well-suited to this type of articulation, the vihuelist begins with an upward stroke on the accented beat with the fleshy side of the index finger. During the subsequent release of the finger to its original starting point (in other words, the downstroke), the vihuelist articulates the string again, now with nail side of the finger. I don't necessarily think it needs to balance. I think the strong-weak pulse is a feature of dedillo to be exploited. Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
in watching the videos i mentioned earlier, i find that for me - sans pick - if i expose the full face of the fingernail (index or middle) to the string (as if i were "buffing" it with the strings) i get a not half-bad sound. the "half flesh/half nail" is probably louder but i get a faster "trill" with the full face of the nail. my ... isn't this "nitty-gritty" ... putting the "charango as vihuela" polemic (diatribe) aside for the moment (please) ... the technique involved in playing either/or (imho) seems useful to both. --- Stuart Walsh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > (!! OK I got a bit confused!) > > > Is the vihuela the only instrument that uses this > technique? I don't > think there is anything like it in 4 or 5 course > guitar, or any kind of > lute, technique. There couldn't be anything in the > construction of the > instrument that makes this a more likely > possibility, could there? And > hats off to Ralph Maier for actually mastering it. > > Speaking only as an amateur: the whole business is > trying to get the > flesh of the fingers to sound the strings. But the > downward stroke of > dedillo seems like a crude bash with the nails. How > do you square the > considered upward pluck of the finger flesh with - > what could easily > be- a rather percussive chunk of the nail on the > downward stroke? > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ ___ Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
John, Is the Portuguese guitar you mention the 4-course like the Renaissance guitar and the uke? Jocelyn From: John Griffiths [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 10/30/2007 8:41 PM To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo My two-penneth worth is that we have two main ways of learning about dedillo from contemporary practice. One is from the variety of techniques used in vihuela/guitarra-derivatives in Latin America, such as the charango and various others. The second is the Portuguese guitar that has continued to use dedillo technique in a manner that I suspect is not far removed from the way that sixteenth-century vihuelists used it. John On 31/10/2007, at 10:23, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > At 07:00 PM 10/30/2007, Stuart Walsh wrote: >> Is the vihuela the only instrument that uses this technique? I don't >> think there is anything like it in 4 or 5 course guitar, or any >> kind of >> lute, technique. There couldn't be anything in the construction of >> the >> instrument that makes this a more likely possibility, could there? >> And >> hats off to Ralph Maier for actually mastering it. >> >> Speaking only as an amateur: the whole business is trying to get >> the flesh >> of the fingers to sound the strings. But the downward stroke of >> dedillo >> seems like a crude bash with the nails. How do you square the >> considered >> upward pluck of the fingers with - what could easily be- a rather >> percussive chunk downwards with the thumb? > > Dedillo as tremolo is pretty common to modern classical guitar and > perhaps > even more common to flamenco (and, as Bill has offered, to chordal > charango > technique). > > I'm not certain how to interpret your latter paragraph, Stuart. The > potential imbalance in tone is between the typical full-voiced > upstroke of > nail/flesh against the thinner-voiced downstroke of the same > finger, back > of nail only. To quote the fine detail of Ralph's article: > [W]hen commencing a section of passage-work where dedillo has been > indicated in the tablature, or where the passage seems well-suited > to this > type of articulation, the vihuelist begins with an upward stroke on > the > accented beat with the fleshy side of the index finger. During the > subsequent release of the finger to its original starting point (in > other > words, the downstroke), the vihuelist articulates the string again, > now > with nail side of the finger. > > I don't necessarily think it needs to balance. I think the strong- > weak > pulse is a feature of dedillo to be exploited. > > Eugene > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ~ Professor John Griffiths Faculty of Music =95 The University of Melbourne 3010 =95 Victoria =95 Australia tel (61+3) 8344 8810 =95 fax (61+3) 8344 5346 =95 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ This e-mail and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this e- mail is received in error please delete it and notify us by return e- mail. -- --
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
My two-penneth worth is that we have two main ways of learning about dedillo from contemporary practice. One is from the variety of techniques used in vihuela/guitarra-derivatives in Latin America, such as the charango and various others. The second is the Portuguese guitar that has continued to use dedillo technique in a manner that I suspect is not far removed from the way that sixteenth-century vihuelists used it. John On 31/10/2007, at 10:23, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > At 07:00 PM 10/30/2007, Stuart Walsh wrote: >> Is the vihuela the only instrument that uses this technique? I don't >> think there is anything like it in 4 or 5 course guitar, or any >> kind of >> lute, technique. There couldn't be anything in the construction of >> the >> instrument that makes this a more likely possibility, could there? >> And >> hats off to Ralph Maier for actually mastering it. >> >> Speaking only as an amateur: the whole business is trying to get >> the flesh >> of the fingers to sound the strings. But the downward stroke of >> dedillo >> seems like a crude bash with the nails. How do you square the >> considered >> upward pluck of the fingers with - what could easily be- a rather >> percussive chunk downwards with the thumb? > > Dedillo as tremolo is pretty common to modern classical guitar and > perhaps > even more common to flamenco (and, as Bill has offered, to chordal > charango > technique). > > I'm not certain how to interpret your latter paragraph, Stuart. The > potential imbalance in tone is between the typical full-voiced > upstroke of > nail/flesh against the thinner-voiced downstroke of the same > finger, back > of nail only. To quote the fine detail of Ralph's article: > [W]hen commencing a section of passage-work where dedillo has been > indicated in the tablature, or where the passage seems well-suited > to this > type of articulation, the vihuelist begins with an upward stroke on > the > accented beat with the fleshy side of the index finger. During the > subsequent release of the finger to its original starting point (in > other > words, the downstroke), the vihuelist articulates the string again, > now > with nail side of the finger. > > I don't necessarily think it needs to balance. I think the strong- > weak > pulse is a feature of dedillo to be exploited. > > Eugene > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ~ Professor John Griffiths Faculty of Music =95 The University of Melbourne 3010 =95 Victoria =95 Australia tel (61+3) 8344 8810 =95 fax (61+3) 8344 5346 =95 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ This e-mail and any attachments may contain personal information or information that is otherwise confidential or the subject of copyright. Any use, disclosure or copying of any part of it is prohibited. The University does not warrant that this email or any attachments are free from viruses or defects. Please check any attachments for viruses and defects before opening them. If this e- mail is received in error please delete it and notify us by return e- mail. --
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
Yes - the vihuela must have been played with a plectrum originally. It was called a vihuela de pendula I think - to distinguish it from the vihuela de mano and vihuela de arco.. In fact most plucked stringed instruments, including the lute and the guitar were played with plectra as a matter of course until the end of the 15th century - and probably played only a single line. Playing finger style in several parts began to be deveolped towards the end of the 15th century - as I understand it. Monica - Original Message - From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "RALPH MAIER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "'Vihuela Net'" ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:35 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo thank you - my thumb over technigue doesn't exist and it's a relief to know that sig. fuenilana preferred the (to me, infinitly more natural) thumb-under. was the vihuela - any vihuela - ever played with a plectrum? bienvenuto - bill --- RALPH MAIER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi all, The other two are do dedos (thumb and finger like most lutenists), and index and middle finger (like modern guitarists). The last was apparently Fuenllana's fingering of choice. Ralph - Original Message - From: bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:03 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo To: 'Vihuela Net' Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > archiving (is that a word?) problems from your address > might be "spam" related. it happened to me once and i > felt just awful about it (my italian server was to > blame ...) > > in ralph maier's excellent article there's a quote in > translation from miguel de fuenllana which mentions > "... three ways [in] which [they] customarily are > played on this instrument, the vihuela." only one - > dedillo - is elaborated. > > please, what are the other two? > > - bill > > --- Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Wayne has told me that the archive computer has > > decided it doesn't like > > me...and is refusing to archive my posts. I'm trying > > not to take this > > personally. > > > > BTW, Ralph Maier, he of the online article re > > dedillo (and excellent vihuela > > playing) has joined our list. Welcome, friend. > > > > Rob > > > > www.rmguitar.info > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ > > > > ___Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it > now. > http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/ > > > http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ ___ Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
thank you, monica. actually, i knew that ... just got a little disoriented with all these wizzing fingers. i'm sure there's a degree of subtility to be gained from finger picking - as opposed to plectrum picking - and effects as yet unknown to me ... but so far, i much prefer the pick. it's louder, for one thing and makes a consistant, syncopated sound that in finger picking sounds just a little mechanical - imho. but with all effects i've noticed that paired courses make a fuller, more musical sound. - bill --- Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yes - the vihuela must have been played with a > plectrum originally. It was > called a vihuela de pendula I think - to distinguish > it from the vihuela de > mano and vihuela de arco.. > > In fact most plucked stringed instruments, including > the lute and the guitar > were played with plectra as a matter of course until > the end of the 15th > century - and probably played only a single line. > Playing finger style in > several parts began to be deveolped towards the end > of the 15th century - as > I understand it. > > Monica > - Original Message - > From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "RALPH MAIER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "'Vihuela Net'" ; > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:35 PM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo > > > > thank you - my thumb over technigue doesn't exist > and > > it's a relief to know that sig. fuenilana > preferred > > the (to me, infinitly more natural) thumb-under. > > > > was the vihuela - any vihuela - ever played with a > > plectrum? > > > > bienvenuto - bill > > > > --- RALPH MAIER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Hi all, > >> > >> The other two are do dedos (thumb and finger like > >> most lutenists), and index and middle finger > (like > >> modern guitarists). The last was apparently > >> Fuenllana's fingering of choice. > >> > >> Ralph > >> > >> - Original Message - > >> From: bill kilpatrick > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Date: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:03 pm > >> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo > >> To: 'Vihuela Net' > >> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > archiving (is that a word?) problems from your > >> address > >> > might be "spam" related. it happened to me > once > >> and i > >> > felt just awful about it (my italian server was > to > >> > blame ...) > >> > > >> > in ralph maier's excellent article there's a > quote > >> in > >> > translation from miguel de fuenllana which > >> mentions > >> > "... three ways [in] which [they] customarily > are > >> > played on this instrument, the vihuela." only > one > >> - > >> > dedillo - is elaborated. > >> > > >> > please, what are the other two? > >> > > >> > - bill > >> > > >> > --- Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > > >> > > Wayne has told me that the archive computer > has > >> > > decided it doesn't like > >> > > me...and is refusing to archive my posts. I'm > >> trying > >> > > not to take this > >> > > personally. > >> > > > >> > > BTW, Ralph Maier, he of the online article re > >> > > dedillo (and excellent vihuela > >> > > playing) has joined our list. Welcome, > friend. > >> > > > >> > > Rob > >> > > > >> > > www.rmguitar.info > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > To get on or off this list see list > information > >> at > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > ___Yahoo! > >> Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows > >> the answer. Try it > >> > now. > >> > http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/ > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > ___ > > Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? > Visit Yahoo! For Good > > > http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ ___ Want ideas for reducing your carbon footprint? Visit Yahoo! For Good http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/environment.html
[VIHUELA] Re: dedillo
Hello again, Thanks to all for your comments. There aren't many players in this part of the country to bounce ideas off of, and its nice to have your feedback. I wrote the article a few years ago as a final project for a grad seminar to help me come to terms with what I saw as a few basic fundamentals outlined in the sources and already discussed by others, and to clarify what was for me a newly adopted instrument and playing style. The examples are laid out roughly in order of difficulty, with the intention of serving as a starting point for players. A good way of learning dedillo would be to use the article as a template and supplement it with similar passages from the sources. One of my first concert outings with the vihuela was a recital sponsored by the Classical Guitar Society here in Calgary, in which I decided to play some of the Mudarra fantasias - great examples of dedillo. Before playing them, I talked a bit about the instrument and the idea of dedillo. After the concert, I was approached by several collegues - both respectable players and teachers - who confessed not really being able to hear much of a difference between dedillo and dos dedos. The fact is that even up close the difference in sound can be subtle. Still, there are many situations where using dedillo is a lifesaver, and its a great thing to help round out your toolbox. Cheers. Ralph - Original Message - From: bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 11:24 am Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo To: Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Vihuelalist > thank you, monica. actually, i knew that ... just got > a little disoriented with all these wizzing fingers. > > i'm sure there's a degree of subtility to be gained > from finger picking - as opposed to plectrum picking - > and effects as yet unknown to me ... but so far, i > much prefer the pick. it's louder, for one thing and > makes a consistant, syncopated sound that in finger > picking sounds just a little mechanical - imho. > > but with all effects i've noticed that paired courses > make a fuller, more musical sound. > > - bill > > --- Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Yes - the vihuela must have been played with a > > plectrum originally. It was > > called a vihuela de pendula I think - to distinguish > > it from the vihuela de > > mano and vihuela de arco.. > > > > In fact most plucked stringed instruments, including > > the lute and the guitar > > were played with plectra as a matter of course until > > the end of the 15th > > century - and probably played only a single line. > > Playing finger style in > > several parts began to be deveolped towards the end > > of the 15th century - as > > I understand it. > > > > Monica > > - Original Message - > > From: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "RALPH MAIER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: "'Vihuela Net'" ; > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 10:35 PM > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo > > > > > > > thank you - my thumb over technigue doesn't exist > > and > > > it's a relief to know that sig. fuenilana > > preferred > > > the (to me, infinitly more natural) thumb-under. > > > > > > was the vihuela - any vihuela - ever played with a > > > plectrum? > > > > > > bienvenuto - bill > > > > > > --- RALPH MAIER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > >> Hi all, > > >> > > >> The other two are do dedos (thumb and finger like > > >> most lutenists), and index and middle finger > > (like > > >> modern guitarists). The last was apparently > > >> Fuenllana's fingering of choice. > > >> > > >> Ralph > > >> > > >> - Original Message - > > >> From: bill kilpatrick > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >> Date: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:03 pm > > >> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: dedillo > > >> To: 'Vihuela Net' > > >> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >> > > >> > archiving (is that a word?) problems from your > > >> address > > >> > might be "spam" related. it happened to me > > once > > >> and i > > >> > felt just awful about it (my italian server was > > to > > >> > blame ...) > > >> > > > >> > in ralph maier's excellent ar
