LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question

[Scott Holder]

Hey folks,

Recently picked up an 18gb LVD SCSI drive from a Sun machine for my 
LC475. Already had an adapter kicking around, so I now have it adapted 
to the classic 50-pin SCSI. The problem is it only works when I have 
something terminated plugged into the external SCSI. I recently also 
found a 50-pin inline active SCSI terminator that plugs into the ribbon, 
but it doesn't make a difference. Just the flashing ?. If I plug in my 
external whatevers (CDROM, other HD, doesn't matter) while it's on (yes, 
I know that's a Very Bad Thing, but it was for Science!) then it 
immediately picks up and runs no problem.


Does anyone have any suggestions for getting this working with the 
single drive? There is a jumper on the drive for Force Single Ended 
which some internet googlings suggested may help, but to no avail. Sadly 
it's the only working LVD drive I have so I can't try another to see. 
It's not a huge deal keeping a CDROM plugged in, but I'd rather not be 
tied to it.


Scott

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Re: LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question

[Jonathan Morton]

It may be that all you need is a terminator plugged directly into the
external SCSI port.

- Jonathan Morton

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Re: LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question

['Keith Jamison' via Vintage Macs]

Hi Scott,
I pulled 210MB SCSI (50-pin) drives from several Sun machines and none of them 
worked until I added termination.
I used inline resistor modules and plugged them into the sockets near to the 
50-way connector.
I guess this wont be useful in your case but, as I don't know what your drive 
looks like, I can't help you further.


Jonathan, that's a great suggestion. Can anyone suggest a possible termination 
device that fits into the DA25 socket, please?
Cheers all,
Keith 

 On Sunday, 1 February 2015, 4:40, Jonathan Morton  
wrote:
   

 It may be that all you need is a terminator plugged directly into the external 
SCSI port. - Jonathan Morton
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Re: LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question

['Glen' via Vintage Macs]

Maybe like the one four rows down on the left on the page below?




I have similar one. It does fit on the external SCSI port of a IIsi and a PM 
7500 although I never used it that way. It came with an external SCSI device 
with two 25 pin ports, can't remember which one. --Glen



From: 'Keith Jamison' via Vintage Macs 

Jonathan, that's a great suggestion. Can anyone suggest a possible termination 
device that fits into the DA25 socket, please?

Cheers all,

Keith


On Sunday, 1 February 2015, 4:40, Jonathan Morton  wrote:



It may be that all you need is a terminator plugged directly into the external 
SCSI port.
- Jonathan Morton


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Re: LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question

['Glen' via Vintage Macs]

Here's another one less 
expensive.



- Original Message -
From: 'Glen' via Vintage Macs 


Maybe like the one four rows down on the left on the page below?




I have similar one. It does fit on the external SCSI port of a IIsi and a PM 
7500 although I never used it that way. It came with an external SCSI device 
with two 25 pin ports, can't remember which one. --Glen



From: 'Keith Jamison' via Vintage Macs 

Jonathan, that's a great suggestion. Can anyone suggest a possible termination 
device that fits into the DA25 socket, please?

Cheers all,

Keith


On Sunday, 1 February 2015, 4:40, Jonathan Morton  wrote:



It may be that all you need is a terminator plugged directly into the external 
SCSI port.
- Jonathan Morton

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Re: LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question

[Jeff Walther]

On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 10:38:37 PM UTC-6, Scott Holder wrote:
>
>  Hey folks,
>  
> Recently picked up an 18gb LVD SCSI drive from a Sun machine for my LC475. 
> Already had an adapter kicking around, so I now have it adapted to the 
> classic 50-pin SCSI. The problem is it only works when I have something 
> terminated plugged into the external SCSI.
>

Most likely, your adapter does not provide termination.  SCA drives have no 
on-board termination, so, in order to terminate your SCSI bus, you really 
should have termination in the adapter.   The $2 - $5 adapters on Ebay and 
Amazon do not have termination.   The least expensive SCA - 50 pin adapters 
I've seen with termination are about $20, although OWC did have some for 
~$10 for a while.  I think they're out, unless they restocked.

Ideally, the upper 8 pins on the SCA drive should be terminated as well 
(SCA drives are wide), not just the 50 pins in use. 

Jeff Walther

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Re: LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question

[Derek Morton]

Adding to Jeff's comments, I would say that you probably need to terminate the 
upper 8 bits.  I had a real head scratcher a few years back trying to get SCA 
drives working in some of my older Quadras and the solution was a rather 
expensive SCA-50 pin adapter which provided upper byte termination.  Even when 
forcing the drive into SE mode with the lower byte terminated, the drives (I 
tried more than 1 type) would simply not work without the upper byte being 
terminated.

Sadly, the seller I purchased most of my SCSI paraphernalia from has closed 
shop...  And I could have used some more of the adapters too!

Derek

On Feb 2, 2015, at 11:29 AM, Jeff Walther wrote:

> 
> 
> On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 10:38:37 PM UTC-6, Scott Holder wrote:
> Hey folks,
>  
> Recently picked up an 18gb LVD SCSI drive from a Sun machine for my LC475. 
> Already had an adapter kicking around, so I now have it adapted to the 
> classic 50-pin SCSI. The problem is it only works when I have something 
> terminated plugged into the external SCSI.
> 
> Most likely, your adapter does not provide termination.  SCA drives have no 
> on-board termination, so, in order to terminate your SCSI bus, you really 
> should have termination in the adapter.   The $2 - $5 adapters on Ebay and 
> Amazon do not have termination.   The least expensive SCA - 50 pin adapters 
> I've seen with termination are about $20, although OWC did have some for ~$10 
> for a while.  I think they're out, unless they restocked.
> 
> Ideally, the upper 8 pins on the SCA drive should be terminated as well (SCA 
> drives are wide), not just the 50 pins in use. 
> 
> Jeff Walther

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Re: LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question

['Gregg Eshelman' via Vintage Macs]

On 2/2/2015 6:53 AM, Wesley Furr wrote:

Just be careful of the heat being generated by that 10k drive.  I worked
for a small computer place in the late 90's that custom built machines.
We put together a server with a pair of Cheetah drives (the 10k drives
presumably the same as you speak of) and then they kept failing.  Turned
out they didn't have adequate cooling and were slowly roasting
themselves to death.


Some 10K RPM SCSI drives didn't get so hot. Some years ago I put 
together a box with a pair of 9 gig Ultra SCSI 10K Quantum drives. The 
housings were gloss black with a few fins here and there. Absolutely 
quiet and never got above warm to the touch.



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Re[2]: LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question

[Scott Holder]

I guess the 25-pin terminator might be the path of least resistance, and 
it's not like it'd make it hugely more clumsy. I'll look into that, 
thanks.


The drive itself is an 18gb drive, model SR318404LC. Nothing especially 
fancy about it, though the 10k RPM performance compared to the old 5400 
rpm external 2gb drive I was using with it is very nice. I remember 
seeing the resistor modules on plain 50-pin drives, but this drive 
doesn't have anything like that. I'm not sure LVD drives normally would. 
I've only dealt with a couple (the one this adapter used to be attached 
to before it died) and it worked fine in a Beige G3 with no additional 
work involved. I guess it could be worse, it's already a huge upgrade!


Scott



-- Original Message --
From: "'Keith Jamison' via Vintage Macs" 
To: "vintage-macs@googlegroups.com" 
Sent: 2/1/2015 9:23:06 AM
Subject: Re: LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question


Hi Scott,

I pulled 210MB SCSI (50-pin) drives from several Sun machines and none 
of them worked until I added termination.


I used inline resistor modules and plugged them into the sockets near 
to the 50-way connector.


I guess this wont be useful in your case but, as I don't know what your 
drive looks like, I can't help you further.




Jonathan, that's a great suggestion. Can anyone suggest a possible 
termination device that fits into the DA25 socket, please?


Cheers all,

Keith


On Sunday, 1 February 2015, 4:40, Jonathan Morton 
 wrote:



It may be that all you need is a terminator plugged directly into the 
external SCSI port.

- Jonathan Morton


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Re[4]: LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question

[Scott Holder]

I was concerned about this myself, especially since I'm running a 33mhz 
68040 in it. To my delight, it gets a bit warm to the touch but not too 
terribly bad at all. In fact I feel like it gets hotter with the case 
open and no airflow than closed with the fan running.


I have a couple external enclosures, but one of the goals of this 
machine was a standalone machine with no bits hanging off it. A $5 
25-pin active terminator is probably the easiest way to fix it that 
doesn't involve expensive adapters. even if it doesn't quite keep it 
fully slim.


Scott

-- Original Message --
From: "Wesley Furr" 
To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
Sent: 2/2/2015 8:53:40 AM
Subject: RE: Re[2]: LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question

Just be careful of the heat being generated by that 10k drive.  I 
worked for a small computer place in the late 90's that custom built 
machines.  We put together a server with a pair of Cheetah drives (the 
10k drives presumably the same as you speak of) and then they kept 
failing.  Turned out they didn't have adequate cooling and were slowly 
roasting themselves to death.  Put them in drive bay adapters with fans 
and they were fine after that.  I mention this because I doubt the 
LC475 has much in the way of cooling for the drive.  If you're not 
sure, let it run for a half hour or so and ease the cover off and touch 
the drive...  Stock drives in those machines were probably 5400rpm (or 
slower) drives that didn't generate much if any heat...


Another option might be to pick up an external enclosure with decent 
cooling and run it that way...that would also probably get around your 
termination issues...  Thinking on it further, I think it would be 
accurate to say LVD SE drives don't have termination 
capabilities...seems to me all those that I saw (in the PC world) came 
with cables that had a terminator pack built onto the end of them...


Wesley



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RE: Re[2]: LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question

[Wesley Furr]

Just be careful of the heat being generated by that 10k drive.  I worked for
a small computer place in the late 90's that custom built machines.  We put
together a server with a pair of Cheetah drives (the 10k drives presumably
the same as you speak of) and then they kept failing.  Turned out they
didn't have adequate cooling and were slowly roasting themselves to death.
Put them in drive bay adapters with fans and they were fine after that.  I
mention this because I doubt the LC475 has much in the way of cooling for
the drive.  If you're not sure, let it run for a half hour or so and ease
the cover off and touch the drive...  Stock drives in those machines were
probably 5400rpm (or slower) drives that didn't generate much if any heat...
 
Another option might be to pick up an external enclosure with decent cooling
and run it that way...that would also probably get around your termination
issues...  Thinking on it further, I think it would be accurate to say LVD
SE drives don't have termination capabilities...seems to me all those that I
saw (in the PC world) came with cables that had a terminator pack built onto
the end of them...
 
Wesley
 

  _  

From: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com [mailto:vintage-macs@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Scott Holder
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2015 11:47 PM
To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re[2]: LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question


I guess the 25-pin terminator might be the path of least resistance, and
it's not like it'd make it hugely more clumsy. I'll look into that, thanks.
 
The drive itself is an 18gb drive, model SR318404LC. Nothing especially
fancy about it, though the 10k RPM performance compared to the old 5400 rpm
external 2gb drive I was using with it is very nice. I remember seeing the
resistor modules on plain 50-pin drives, but this drive doesn't have
anything like that. I'm not sure LVD drives normally would. I've only dealt
with a couple (the one this adapter used to be attached to before it died)
and it worked fine in a Beige G3 with no additional work involved. I guess
it could be worse, it's already a huge upgrade!
 
Scott
 
 
 
-- Original Message --
From: "'Keith Jamison' via Vintage Macs" 
To: "vintage-macs@googlegroups.com" 
Sent: 2/1/2015 9:23:06 AM
Subject: Re: LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question
 

Hi Scott,


I pulled 210MB SCSI (50-pin) drives from several Sun machines and none of
them worked until I added termination.


I used inline resistor modules and plugged them into the sockets near to the
50-way connector.


I guess this wont be useful in your case but, as I don't know what your
drive looks like, I can't help you further.






Jonathan, that's a great suggestion. Can anyone suggest a possible
termination device that fits into the DA25 socket, please?


Cheers all,


Keith


On Sunday, 1 February 2015, 4:40, Jonathan Morton 
wrote:



It may be that all you need is a terminator plugged directly into the
external SCSI port.
- Jonathan Morton

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RE: Re[4]: LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question

[Wesley Furr]

That is impressive...they have obviously done great things over the years as
far as reducing the heat generated off of enterprise-class drives.  Thanks
for the info!
 
Wesley
 

  _  

From: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com [mailto:vintage-macs@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Scott Holder
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2015 9:20 PM
To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re[4]: LVD-adapted drive and SCSI Voodoo question


I was concerned about this myself, especially since I'm running a 33mhz
68040 in it. To my delight, it gets a bit warm to the touch but not too
terribly bad at all. In fact I feel like it gets hotter with the case open
and no airflow than closed with the fan running.
 
I have a couple external enclosures, but one of the goals of this machine
was a standalone machine with no bits hanging off it. A $5 25-pin active
terminator is probably the easiest way to fix it that doesn't involve
expensive adapters. even if it doesn't quite keep it fully slim. 
 
Scott

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Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/
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