Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[mart]

>So I need a DIN8-DIN8 null-modem solution.  That seems to be the same as 
>a printer cable on an old Mac.

Here's the PinOut of the MiniDin8 Mac printer cable:

1 HSo  HSi 2
2 HSi  HSo 1
4 GND  GND 4
3 TxD-  RxD- 5
6 TxD+  RxD+ 8
5 RxD-  TxD- 3
8 RxD+  TxD+ 6

Signals are reversed, as thou can see.

good luck!

-mart


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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[Gamba]

>I have never heard of a way (doesn't mean there isn't one,
>certainly) to get a PC to talk to a Mac over serial connections without
>inserting an AppleTalk card into the PC.
>Ken

Here's another article on Mac-PC serial connection:


My question is, if it's not done right can the Mac serial port be damaged?

Gamba




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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[Mike Holling]

> So I need a DIN8-DIN8 null-modem solution.  That seems to be the same as
> a printer cable on an old Mac.

I'm pretty sure a printer cable will work, I remember using it to directly
connect two macs in the past.  You should be able to run PPP on the G3 if
you're going that route.  Maybe Apple will add LocalTalk capability to
OSX.

- Mike


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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[Steven]

I know I have an extra IWII cable here (from IWII to Super Serial card on
IIe), I would be glad too send it, providing you pay s/h.  Reply off-list if
you want this cable.

Steven



> What you want to do is reasonable but slow...
>
> To connect two Macs with mini DIN 8 pin sockets over null modem, you use
> the same cable as for a Mac to an ImageWriter II. See:
> http://ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/apple2/MiscInfo/Modems/serial.cables -- the
> source, David Empson, is very reliable.
>
> To make your own cable, the pinouts can be found at:
> http://www.cablingdirectory.com/pinouts/apple/apple.htm
>



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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[Phil Beesley]

On Saturday, June 15, 2002, at 03:55  am, (Vintage Macs) wrote:

> Thanks for your response, but I'm not trying to get them networked via
> AppleTalk -- I don't want to do File Sharing.  I want to get an old Mac
> onto Internet, and to do that I want it to talk (via PPP) to another
> computer.  But I want to do that over a serial cable instead of over a
> modem.

What you want to do is reasonable but slow...

To connect two Macs with mini DIN 8 pin sockets over null modem, you use 
the same cable as for a Mac to an ImageWriter II. See:
http://ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/apple2/MiscInfo/Modems/serial.cables -- the 
source, David Empson, is very reliable.

To make your own cable, the pinouts can be found at:
http://www.cablingdirectory.com/pinouts/apple/apple.htm

>
> There ought to be a way to do this -- all it should take is a null modem
> cable (two DIN8-to-DB25 cables and a null modem adapter should also
> work) and the proper software.  I'm sufficiently versed in software and
> will eventually figure out that end of it -- the only thing I need help
> with is the physical layer.  I don't know what constitutes a "null modem
> cable" for a Mac -- my serial port knowledge is only on PCs, and I have
> yet to figure out what of that translates to the Mac.

This *may* work if the DIN8-to-DB25 cables are Mac modem cables but it 
is a bit clumsy. It would be a lot better to convert a standard Mac 
serial cable to a null modem.

> Another way to look at is like this: I want to use one Mac as a terminal
> on the other.  I know ZTerm will allow me to do this, but how can I hook
> the two up to get ZTerm to work?  The project is much more complex than
> that, but that's where it starts.  All of the instructions I've found
> detail how to do what I want to do... but over a modem.  I want to do it
> via null modem -- directly from computer to computer.

Configure the PPP and TCP/IP software of your choice on the Mac, 
configure the PPP daemon on OS X server and you should then be able to 
log in using MacSSH as a terminal. There is probably some way to use the 
older Mac as a simple serial console (ie without TCP/IP) with the OS X 
server (Apple are providing this as an option with their new XServe 
box...), but I don't have an OS X box with a serial port to try it.

Fom memory, some useful Mac null modem cables are:
To connect a Mac with mini DIN 8 pin socket to a 25 pin D connector (eg 
a PC) over a null modem, you use the same cable as for a Mac to an 
ImageWriter I. A 25 pin to 9 pin convertor can be used to connect to a 9 
pin PC socket but will not work with a Mac 128/512 socket.

To connect a Mac with  mini DIN 8 pin socket to a Mac with 9 pin D 
connector (128/512 compacts) over a null modem, you use the same cable 
as for a Mac128/512 to an ImageWriter II.

Phil
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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[Eagle]

On Friday, June 14, 2002, at 09:30 , Rob Jennings wrote:
>> Hmmm. Well, I don't think I have heard of an "easy hardware" solution 
>> to
>> do this on a Mac. In order to "route" internet you will need something
>> like IPNetRouter as a software router. There used to be (maybe still
>> are?) hardware AppleTalk routers.
>
> I think he is trying to connect a Mac without Ethernet to a UNIX box.
> Because no UNIX operating system supports LocalTalk and likely never
> will, he is attempting to make a PPP connection.  This is further
> complicated by the different serial cables - DIN8 on the Mac and DB25
> on his UNIX box.  DIN8 to DB25 null modem cables do not seem to be
> readily available.

This is true, but my Unix box is also a Mac -- a G3 Gossamer tower, with 
DIN8 serial ports just like the vintage Macs I want to connect to it.  
(I'll be running OS X Server v1.2 on it).

So I need a DIN8-DIN8 null-modem solution.  That seems to be the same as 
a printer cable on an old Mac.

Eagle


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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[Gregg Eshelman]

There are "slimline" null modem adaptors available
in M-M, F-F and M-F connector configurations. They
cost a bit but for most uses can be considered to
be "zero length" when you're concerned about overall
serial cable length.

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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[Ed Murphy]

> Ouch. OK, though I still don't really understand the use of a "Null 
> Modem" cable. Is it one that "reverses" some of the signal lines?

Yes, the null modem cable swaps the send/recieve signals, so that what
you send from one computer ends up on the recieve line of the other and
visa versa.  Here is the easiest way to 'build' a null modem cable
without soldering.

1. Get a Mac modem cable.  This is the cable that goes from the Mac
modem port to an external modem's DB25.  The cable end that plugs into
the modem is DB25 male (has pins) and the modem's connector is DB25
female.

2. Get a Null modem cable at radio shack with DB25 female connectors on
each end.  This cable does two important things; it internally switches
the send and receive lines (the null modem function), and acts as a
'gender changer' when it is connected to the modem cable (because the
completed cable terminates in a female connector rather than the male
connector that we started with on the modem cable).

3.  connect the modem cable to your mac modem port, connect one end of
the null modem cable to the mac modem cable and connect the other to
the PC.  You can now use the serial port on your mac to talk to the PC.
 

4. That's the hardware side of things.  You'll need a communication
program that can emulate a terminal (like a VT100 series terminal)
running on the Mac.  You'll need to setup Linux to allow a terminal to
log in from the serial port.

Here is the info from www.radioshack.com on the null modem cable:

$6.99   Reg. Price Brand: Aesp 
Cat.#: 950-0186 Model: C-212FF-10 



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[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[Mike Holling]

> Because no UNIX operating system supports LocalTalk and likely never
> will, he is attempting to make a PPP connection.

There are localtalk cards for PCs. However it's easier to have a hardware
device or a mac with the LocalTalk Bridge control panel bridge the
appletalk between phonenet and ethernet, and then use software on the unix
box to provide MacIP.  Both FreeBSD and Linux have (different) freeware to
do this.

- Mike



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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[KADaggett]

My Reply follows quote. On 14/06/2002 18:30 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:  

>From:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rob Jennings)
>Sender:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-to:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>Hmmm. Well, I don't think I have heard of an "easy hardware" solution to
>>do this on a Mac. In order to "route" internet you will need something
>>like IPNetRouter as a software router. There used to be (maybe still
>>are?) hardware AppleTalk routers.
>>
>
>I think he is trying to connect a Mac without Ethernet to a UNIX box. 
>Because no UNIX operating system supports LocalTalk and likely never 
>will, he is attempting to make a PPP connection.  This is further 
>complicated by the different serial cables - DIN8 on the Mac and DB25 
>on his UNIX box.  DIN8 to DB25 null modem cables do not seem to be 
>readily available.

Ouch. OK, though I still don't really understand the use of a "Null 
Modem" cable. Is it one that "reverses" some of the signal lines?

>Have you played Atari today?

Not for about 25 years (or at least it seems that long)!

Ken

Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without.


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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[Rob Jennings]

>
>Hmmm. Well, I don't think I have heard of an "easy hardware" solution to
>do this on a Mac. In order to "route" internet you will need something
>like IPNetRouter as a software router. There used to be (maybe still
>are?) hardware AppleTalk routers.
>

I think he is trying to connect a Mac without Ethernet to a UNIX box. 
Because no UNIX operating system supports LocalTalk and likely never 
will, he is attempting to make a PPP connection.  This is further 
complicated by the different serial cables - DIN8 on the Mac and DB25 
on his UNIX box.  DIN8 to DB25 null modem cables do not seem to be 
readily available.

Rob
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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[KADaggett]

On 14/06/2002 14:11 [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:  

>Ken,
>
>Thanks for your response, but I'm not trying to get them networked via 
>AppleTalk -- I don't want to do File Sharing.  I want to get an old Mac 
>onto Internet, and to do that I want it to talk (via PPP) to another 
>computer.  But I want to do that over a serial cable instead of over a 
>modem.

Hmmm. Well, I don't think I have heard of an "easy hardware" solution to 
do this on a Mac. In order to "route" internet you will need something 
like IPNetRouter as a software router. There used to be (maybe still 
are?) hardware AppleTalk routers.

>There ought to be a way to do this -- all it should take is a null modem 
>cable (two DIN8-to-DB25 cables and a null modem adapter should also 
>work) and the proper software.  I'm sufficiently versed in software and 
>will eventually figure out that end of it -- the only thing I need help 
>with is the physical layer.  I don't know what constitutes a "null modem 
>cable" for a Mac -- my serial port knowledge is only on PCs, and I have 
>yet to figure out what of that translates to the Mac.

I guess I just understand the function of a "null modem cable."

>Another way to look at is like this: I want to use one Mac as a terminal 
>on the other.  I know ZTerm will allow me to do this, but how can I hook 
>the two up to get ZTerm to work?  The project is much more complex than 
>that, but that's where it starts.  All of the instructions I've found 
>detail how to do what I want to do... but over a modem.  I want to do it 
>via null modem -- directly from computer to computer.

Well, Macs have "always" talked to each other through their serial ports. 
IPNetRouter lets one Mac act as a router for one or more Macs connected 
via AppleTalk (their serial ports).

>I just don't know what kind of cable I need.  And I don't have any idea 
>where to find one. :(

If we Mac folks understood the function of such a cable, I am sure it 
can't be that hard!

>Eagle

Still, an interesting project. I assume that speed of the connection is 
not one of your conderns. Data flow through the serial port won't be 
anything to write home about.

Ken

Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without.


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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[Randy Beaudreault]

>]Greetings, all.
>
>The short version: are printer cables null modem cables?  Can a PhoneNet
>cable/connector be used as a null modem calbe?
>
>The long version:
>
>I am interested in networking Macs via their serial ports.  Not for
>LocalTalk, but for PPP, to a Unix machine (Mac OS X Server).



>Once I have the physical link working, I'll putz until I figure out how
>to get the other stuff running. :)
>
>Eagle

I run my firewall/router/DNS Server NetBSD IIci via a serial console. 
I monitor it with my G4 and have also done the monitoring with my 
Power IIci.  Just hook up a serial between your two machines.
-- 
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OS X - UNIX for the rest of us
NetBSD - Catch the Power!

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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[rcjennings]

I've looked into this myself before.  Based on some quick 
Googling, I believe it is possible.  Let me know if these links are of 
any use to you:

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/mini/Mac-Terminal-2.html

http://www.geocities.com/jmarkevich/macnetwork.html

Rob

- Original Message -
From: Eagle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, June 14, 2002 2:11 pm
Subject: Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports
> 
> Ken,
> 
> Thanks for your response, but I'm not trying to get them 
networked 
> via 
> AppleTalk -- I don't want to do File Sharing.  I want to get an old 
> Mac 
> onto Internet, and to do that I want it to talk (via PPP) to 
> another 
> computer.  But I want to do that over a serial cable instead of 
> over a 
> modem.
> 
> There ought to be a way to do this -- all it should take is a null 
> modem 
> cable (two DIN8-to-DB25 cables and a null modem adapter 
should also 
> work) and the proper software.  I'm sufficiently versed in software 
> and 
> will eventually figure out that end of it -- the only thing I need 
> help 
> with is the physical layer.  I don't know what constitutes a "null 
> modem 
> cable" for a Mac -- my serial port knowledge is only on PCs, and I 
> have 
> yet to figure out what of that translates to the Mac.
> 
> Another way to look at is like this: I want to use one Mac as a 
> terminal 
> on the other.  I know ZTerm will allow me to do this, but how can I 
> hook 
> the two up to get ZTerm to work?  The project is much more 
complex 
> than 
> that, but that's where it starts.  All of the instructions I've 
> found 
> detail how to do what I want to do... but over a modem.  I want to 
> do it 
> via null modem -- directly from computer to computer.
> 
> I just don't know what kind of cable I need.  And I don't have any 
> idea 
> where to find one. :(
> 
> Eagle
> 



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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[the pickle]

At 15:08 -0700 on 14/06/02, Steven wrote:

>> I just don't know what kind of cable I need.  And I don't have any idea
>> where to find one. :(
>>
>> Eagle
>>
>To connect 2 Macs together (besides ethernet), you just need a simple
>printer cable.  Each end of the cable will have the apple logo on it.

Which won't work at all for what he's trying to do.

A Mac printer cable is NOT a null modem cable.

the pickle

FAQ 

Software Archive


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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[Steven]

> I just don't know what kind of cable I need.  And I don't have any idea
> where to find one. :(
>
> Eagle
>
To connect 2 Macs together (besides ethernet), you just need a simple
printer cable.  Each end of the cable will have the apple logo on it.
Printer/modem ports are the same cable.

If I had an extra, I'd send it.  I'm sure someone here can supply a printer
cable.

Don't search eBay for this.  Whenever a seller says "Apple", "Macintosh",
etc., he/she will charge extra.

Steven


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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[Steven]

After many failed attempts at getting the Stylewriter 2500 to work, I was
told that some printers aren't "networkable".  This printer will not work on
a PhoneNet network, period.

Steven

> I guess I don't understand what you mean by "null modem cable." What does
> that have to do with the fact that the "Mac would not recognize the
> printer?" A printer on a "PhoneNet Network" would only be seen if it
> either was "shared" (and connected to an open serial port on one of the
> Macs in the chain) or if it was an "AppleTalk" printer (generally laser
> printers with NT in the name or otherwise configured with an AppleTalk
> card or device.
>



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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[Eagle]

Response toward the bottom.

On Friday, June 14, 2002, at 04:36 , [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> My Reply follows quote. On 14/06/2002 10:33
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
>
>> From:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steven)
>>> Greetings, all.
>>>
>>> The short version: are printer cables null modem cables?  Can a 
>>> PhoneNet
>>> cable/connector be used as a null modem calbe?
>>>
>>> The long version:
>>>
>>> I am interested in networking Macs via their serial ports.  Not for
>>> LocalTalk, but for PPP, to a Unix machine (Mac OS X Server).
>>>
>>> I've been looking around for info on doing this -- looking at the FAQ,
>>> searching google, looking at Amber's site and other Mac networking
>>> sites.  So far I've come up empty handed.
>>>
>>> All I am trying to figure out right now is how to hook up two Macs via
>>> their serial ports, so they can talk to each other, as over a null 
>>> modem
>>> cable.
>
> Just hook the two Macs together via their Printer Ports, set file 
> sharing
> on each, open the Chooser and activate AppleTalk on each and go to work.
> Depending on your OS you may have to configure the AppleTalk control
> panel as well.
>
>>> Is it possible to use my PhoneNet connectors and cables for this, if 
>>> I'm
>>> just going to have two Macs on the wire?  If not, can I use a printer
>>> cable?  (I found a reference that implied that those might be null 
>>> modem
>>> cables.)
>
> For two macs you could use either PhoneNet or a serial cable. See above,
> concerning the printer.
>
>>> I have a couple of DIN9-DB25 cables, but no gender changers and no 
>>> null
>>> modem adapters, so no matter what I do I'll likely be buying something
>>> or cutting ends off my serial cables.
>
> Huh? I have never heard of a way (doesn't mean there isn't one,
> certainly) to get a PC to talk to a Mac over serial connections without
> inserting an AppleTalk card into the PC.
>
>>> Once I have the physical link working, I'll putz until I figure out 
>>> how
>>> to get the other stuff running. :)
>>>
>>> Eagle
>
> An interesting project. Have you been to: <
> http://www.mandrake.demon.co.uk/Apple/ltalk/index.html> or to:
>  to do a bit of "reading up?"
>
> Have fun
>
> Ken

Ken,

Thanks for your response, but I'm not trying to get them networked via 
AppleTalk -- I don't want to do File Sharing.  I want to get an old Mac 
onto Internet, and to do that I want it to talk (via PPP) to another 
computer.  But I want to do that over a serial cable instead of over a 
modem.

There ought to be a way to do this -- all it should take is a null modem 
cable (two DIN8-to-DB25 cables and a null modem adapter should also 
work) and the proper software.  I'm sufficiently versed in software and 
will eventually figure out that end of it -- the only thing I need help 
with is the physical layer.  I don't know what constitutes a "null modem 
cable" for a Mac -- my serial port knowledge is only on PCs, and I have 
yet to figure out what of that translates to the Mac.

Another way to look at is like this: I want to use one Mac as a terminal 
on the other.  I know ZTerm will allow me to do this, but how can I hook 
the two up to get ZTerm to work?  The project is much more complex than 
that, but that's where it starts.  All of the instructions I've found 
detail how to do what I want to do... but over a modem.  I want to do it 
via null modem -- directly from computer to computer.

I just don't know what kind of cable I need.  And I don't have any idea 
where to find one. :(

Eagle


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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[KADaggett]

My Reply follows quote. On 14/06/2002 10:33 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:  

>From:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steven)
>You can hook the Macs up via the printer port with a printer cable.  I know
>AppleTalk will allow you to go between modem ports, but I never tried it.
>
>PhoneNet's are designed for if you will include a printer into the mix, or
>if you need to network more than 2 Mac's.  I have a SyleWriter 2500, using
>PhoneNet (I have a Performa 6320), the Mac would not recognize the printer,
>even though the PhoneNets were properly terminated (I also have a LC II, I
>didn't install the Stylewriter onto that, because I really didn't have the
>HD space (40mb)).
>
>So, yes, the printer cable is a "null modem cable"

I guess I don't understand what you mean by "null modem cable." What does 
that have to do with the fact that the "Mac would not recognize the 
printer?" A printer on a "PhoneNet Network" would only be seen if it 
either was "shared" (and connected to an open serial port on one of the 
Macs in the chain) or if it was an "AppleTalk" printer (generally laser 
printers with NT in the name or otherwise configured with an AppleTalk 
card or device.

>Steven
>
>> Greetings, all.
>>
>> The short version: are printer cables null modem cables?  Can a PhoneNet
>> cable/connector be used as a null modem calbe?
>>
>> The long version:
>>
>> I am interested in networking Macs via their serial ports.  Not for
>> LocalTalk, but for PPP, to a Unix machine (Mac OS X Server).
>>
>> I've been looking around for info on doing this -- looking at the FAQ,
>> searching google, looking at Amber's site and other Mac networking
>> sites.  So far I've come up empty handed.
>>
>> All I am trying to figure out right now is how to hook up two Macs via
>> their serial ports, so they can talk to each other, as over a null modem
>> cable.

Just hook the two Macs together via their Printer Ports, set file sharing 
on each, open the Chooser and activate AppleTalk on each and go to work. 
Depending on your OS you may have to configure the AppleTalk control 
panel as well.

>> Is it possible to use my PhoneNet connectors and cables for this, if I'm
>> just going to have two Macs on the wire?  If not, can I use a printer
>> cable?  (I found a reference that implied that those might be null modem
>> cables.)

For two macs you could use either PhoneNet or a serial cable. See above, 
concerning the printer.

>> I have a couple of DIN9-DB25 cables, but no gender changers and no null
>> modem adapters, so no matter what I do I'll likely be buying something
>> or cutting ends off my serial cables.

Huh? I have never heard of a way (doesn't mean there isn't one, 
certainly) to get a PC to talk to a Mac over serial connections without 
inserting an AppleTalk card into the PC.

>> Once I have the physical link working, I'll putz until I figure out how
>> to get the other stuff running. :)
>>
>> Eagle

An interesting project. Have you been to: < 
http://www.mandrake.demon.co.uk/Apple/ltalk/index.html> or to: 
 to do a bit of "reading up?"

Have fun

Ken

Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without.


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Re: Connecting Macs via serial ports

[Steven]

You can hook the Macs up via the printer port with a printer cable.  I know
AppleTalk will allow you to go between modem ports, but I never tried it.

PhoneNet's are designed for if you will include a printer into the mix, or
if you need to network more than 2 Mac's.  I have a SyleWriter 2500, using
PhoneNet (I have a Performa 6320), the Mac would not recognize the printer,
even though the PhoneNets were properly terminated (I also have a LC II, I
didn't install the Stylewriter onto that, because I really didn't have the
HD space (40mb)).

So, yes, the printer cable is a "null modem cable"

Steven

> Greetings, all.
>
> The short version: are printer cables null modem cables?  Can a PhoneNet
> cable/connector be used as a null modem calbe?
>
> The long version:
>
> I am interested in networking Macs via their serial ports.  Not for
> LocalTalk, but for PPP, to a Unix machine (Mac OS X Server).
>
> I've been looking around for info on doing this -- looking at the FAQ,
> searching google, looking at Amber's site and other Mac networking
> sites.  So far I've come up empty handed.
>
> All I am trying to figure out right now is how to hook up two Macs via
> their serial ports, so they can talk to each other, as over a null modem
> cable.
>
> Is it possible to use my PhoneNet connectors and cables for this, if I'm
> just going to have two Macs on the wire?  If not, can I use a printer
> cable?  (I found a reference that implied that those might be null modem
> cables.)
>
> I have a couple of DIN9-DB25 cables, but no gender changers and no null
> modem adapters, so no matter what I do I'll likely be buying something
> or cutting ends off my serial cables.
>
> Once I have the physical link working, I'll putz until I figure out how
> to get the other stuff running. :)
>
> Eagle
>
>



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