Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-06-14 Thread R.Phillips

Joe, Bill and Charlie
Thank you all for your advice, and for the short term I will leave the 732A 
as is. Like you Joe, my 732A arrived with a set of 'dead' SLA batteries - 
these were replaced, and its been powered 24/7 since last October, again it 
came with no history. I bought mine from a dealer on the West Coast who had 
a batch of 14, so I guess that they came from a lab.  Its stability is 
impressive, and the Thermistor reading is currently 4.5194 K ohms, with only 
small variations over time.
My 3458A had a new processor/RAM/ROM board fitted by Agilent - so it has the 
latest 'plug-in/power-up' devices which I understand are a great 
improvement, and was calibrated just about six weeks ago. I take your point 
that the 3458A should be power continuously, but of course the display is of 
the fluorescent type which deteriorate over time. This is now less 
important, as I have had a new display installed, and the improvement is 
great. I certainly agree that the 3458A is very sensitive to temperature 
changes and as you advise, I frequently run 'Auto Cal' .  I consider the 
cost of its refurbishment/calibration to be well worth while, considering 
the cost of a new instrument.

Best regards.
Roy

-Original Message- 
From: J. L. Trantham

Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2014 1:48 AM
To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

Roy,

The tool needed to adjust the 732A is both a tool with a recessed metal
blade and a tool with an exposed metal blade.  The 10 V adjustment is
certainly the one with the recessed metal blade.  The other two use one of
each.  I just can't remember which is which.  However, if you look at the
service manual (downloadable from Fluke or other sites) you can tell which
is which.  All are a 'good ways' in the unit.  If you get 'eye to eye' with
the adjustment holes, with a flash light, you can tell what the position of
the 'blade' should be to make the adjustments.  Once properly 'in place',
leave the adjustment tool in position and wait a day or so to make sure all
remains stable.  Don't forget to 'AutoCal All' the 3458A at least every 24
hours (leaving the 732A and the 3458A on 24/7) while doing this.

My experience with these standards is from a 732A and a 735C.  They share a
lot in common.  The 735C is 10.0 V only.

Both my units arrived with dead battery packs (NiCd for the 735C and SLA for
the 732A) and no history of performance.  When I 'resurrected' them they
were both way off scale.  Since I had no history of their prior performance,
I decided I would allow them to 'settle' then adjust them to be 10.000
VDC as best I could do with my Agilent Calibrated 3458A.  Both required
making adjustments to their internal 'connections' in order for them to be
'on scale' with the external adjustments.  Once adjustments were made, I
have covered the access holes for the adjustments and the 'reset' hole with
tape to minimize ambient air currents.

Both are now very stable.  With the 735C, for instance, when I 'AutoCal' the
3458A and read the voltage, it is +/- 1 uV from 10.00 VDC repeatedly.
Tonight, for instance, it reads 10.001 then settles on 9.998.  Both
the 735C and the 3458A are on 24/7/365.

I take that as evidence that they have 'stabilized'.  My plan is to send my
Opt 002 3458A to Agilent for their 90 day specification Cal then use it to
do a 'final adjustment' to both the 732A and 735C.  Once I'm confident that
both have 'stabilized' (which I hope will happen within the 90 day Cal
period), then I hope to send both to Fluke for their 'calibration'.

Once done, my plan is to never adjust them again but, rather, keep track of
their readings with a 3458A.

I agree with others that it is best to track the values rather than to try
to 'adjust' the references.  However, if you have no 'history', you get to
start from scratch, or at least that's my opinion.

The 3458A should be about 4 PPM.  Hopefully, the Opt 002 with a '90 day
Cal', it will be more like 2 PPM or better.  We'll see what Fluke does with
the 735C and 732A, once they have a chance to take a look.  Once
'calibrated', I agree it is more important to make sure they are 'in range'
and stable rather than trying to 'adjust' them each time they might go in
for 'cal'.

Hope this helps.

Good luck.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Charles Black
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 11:18 AM
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

Hi Roy,

I would like to second Todd's advice about leaving the Fluke 732A's output
voltage adjustment alone. You already have stable outputs and 24 microvolts
high is very acceptable. My Datron 4910 (four output supply) has predictable
digital output level settings that doesn't have any luck involved so it is a
better candidate for resetting the standards than the Fluke 732A. I

Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it? - 3458A

2014-06-14 Thread J. L. Trantham
Roy,

The 3458A is quite the instrument.  I'm not familiar with the latest
'plug-in/power-up' devices of which you speak.  I suspect you have Rev 9.2.
Mine have the single chip EPROM, through-hole, A5 board.  I suspect yours
has the SMT version.

If you have just had Agilent calibrate the meter, it is now eligible for the
Repair Agreement for $178.68 per year.  You can buy up to 5 year's worth and
get a slight discount, 4% or so, IIRC.

Might be worth considering.

Gary Bierman at Agilent Loveland told me about that.  When I called Agilent
to purchase that, they were a bit skeptical.  However, when I told them that
Gary Bierman told me it was possible, they got on the phone to talk to
someone and then readily sold me the agreement.  Not a bad price to cover a
potentially expensive repair, especially if you plan to leave it on 24/7/365
and you don't know it's history.

Good luck.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of R.Phillips
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2014 4:00 AM
To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

Joe, Bill and Charlie
Thank you all for your advice, and for the short term I will leave the 732A
as is. Like you Joe, my 732A arrived with a set of 'dead' SLA batteries -
these were replaced, and its been powered 24/7 since last October, again it
came with no history. I bought mine from a dealer on the West Coast who had
a batch of 14, so I guess that they came from a lab.  Its stability is
impressive, and the Thermistor reading is currently 4.5194 K ohms, with only
small variations over time.
My 3458A had a new processor/RAM/ROM board fitted by Agilent - so it has the
latest 'plug-in/power-up' devices which I understand are a great
improvement, and was calibrated just about six weeks ago. I take your point
that the 3458A should be power continuously, but of course the display is of
the fluorescent type which deteriorate over time. This is now less
important, as I have had a new display installed, and the improvement is
great. I certainly agree that the 3458A is very sensitive to temperature
changes and as you advise, I frequently run 'Auto Cal' .  I consider the
cost of its refurbishment/calibration to be well worth while, considering
the cost of a new instrument.
Best regards.
Roy


___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-06-13 Thread J. L. Trantham
Roy,

The tool needed to adjust the 732A is both a tool with a recessed metal
blade and a tool with an exposed metal blade.  The 10 V adjustment is
certainly the one with the recessed metal blade.  The other two use one of
each.  I just can't remember which is which.  However, if you look at the
service manual (downloadable from Fluke or other sites) you can tell which
is which.  All are a 'good ways' in the unit.  If you get 'eye to eye' with
the adjustment holes, with a flash light, you can tell what the position of
the 'blade' should be to make the adjustments.  Once properly 'in place',
leave the adjustment tool in position and wait a day or so to make sure all
remains stable.  Don't forget to 'AutoCal All' the 3458A at least every 24
hours (leaving the 732A and the 3458A on 24/7) while doing this.

My experience with these standards is from a 732A and a 735C.  They share a
lot in common.  The 735C is 10.0 V only.

Both my units arrived with dead battery packs (NiCd for the 735C and SLA for
the 732A) and no history of performance.  When I 'resurrected' them they
were both way off scale.  Since I had no history of their prior performance,
I decided I would allow them to 'settle' then adjust them to be 10.000
VDC as best I could do with my Agilent Calibrated 3458A.  Both required
making adjustments to their internal 'connections' in order for them to be
'on scale' with the external adjustments.  Once adjustments were made, I
have covered the access holes for the adjustments and the 'reset' hole with
tape to minimize ambient air currents.

Both are now very stable.  With the 735C, for instance, when I 'AutoCal' the
3458A and read the voltage, it is +/- 1 uV from 10.00 VDC repeatedly.
Tonight, for instance, it reads 10.001 then settles on 9.998.  Both
the 735C and the 3458A are on 24/7/365.

I take that as evidence that they have 'stabilized'.  My plan is to send my
Opt 002 3458A to Agilent for their 90 day specification Cal then use it to
do a 'final adjustment' to both the 732A and 735C.  Once I'm confident that
both have 'stabilized' (which I hope will happen within the 90 day Cal
period), then I hope to send both to Fluke for their 'calibration'.

Once done, my plan is to never adjust them again but, rather, keep track of
their readings with a 3458A.

I agree with others that it is best to track the values rather than to try
to 'adjust' the references.  However, if you have no 'history', you get to
start from scratch, or at least that's my opinion.

The 3458A should be about 4 PPM.  Hopefully, the Opt 002 with a '90 day
Cal', it will be more like 2 PPM or better.  We'll see what Fluke does with
the 735C and 732A, once they have a chance to take a look.  Once
'calibrated', I agree it is more important to make sure they are 'in range'
and stable rather than trying to 'adjust' them each time they might go in
for 'cal'.

Hope this helps.

Good luck.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Charles Black
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 11:18 AM
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

Hi Roy,

I would like to second Todd's advice about leaving the Fluke 732A's output
voltage adjustment alone. You already have stable outputs and 24 microvolts
high is very acceptable. My Datron 4910 (four output supply) has predictable
digital output level settings that doesn't have any luck involved so it is a
better candidate for resetting the standards than the Fluke 732A. I had
Fluke reset them last calibration because I had just repaired the Datron
4910 and my voltages were all over the place but stable.  Also I would
expect your Fluke 732A to about as temperature stable as my Datron 4910. In
my experience my 3458A needs to be at 23C to calibrate. Also it should have
the fan filter freshly cleaned and record the 3458A's internal temperature.
I have recorded (over several
days) each Datron 4910 output with my 3458A and a switch and can say that
the Datrons are temperature stable but not my 3458A.

Charlie

On 6/12/2014 7:54 AM, Bill Gold wrote:
 Roy:

  I use a ( General Cement ) GC 8276 adjustment tool to make the 
 pot adjustments in the 732A.  I use the end that has the recessed metal
blade.
 The pots are about 3.5 inches back from the front panel.  It sometimes 
 is very difficult to engage the tool slot in the pot.  It helps to 
 look through the front panel hole with a small flashlight and observe 
 the position of the slot in the pot ( i.e. 9, 10, 11 o'clock for 
 example ).  Then when you insert the adjustment tool you can get close 
 to the point when you can engage the adjustment pot.  Sometimes it 
 will seem impossible to engage the tool into the slot, but with 
 patience it can be done.  Once you do engage the pot do whatever 
 adjustment you want, don't pull the tool out, just leave the tool 
 engaged with the pot so that if you want to make

Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-06-12 Thread R.Phillips

Hi Joe
Sorry if I am retracing steps, but I have recently had my 3458A 
restored/recal'd  by Agilent - its good to have it back. I also have a Fluke 
732A which I can now check. Currently it is 10.24 volts, I now feel 
confident to trim it to the 3458A. I have tried to see the trimmers in each 
of the three holes - they appear to be some way within, and I am wondering 
if you could confirm the type of pot. that is used and just how long a 
trimming device is required. Is this a special tool only available from 
Fluke ?

Regards
Roy Phillips.


-Original Message- 
From: J. L. Trantham

Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 10:09 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

Charles,

What size batteries did you use for your external pack and where are you
located?  In other words, how long can your external battery pack 'survive'
keeping the 732A 'hot'?  Is the external pack recharged at Fluke or does it
have to make a round trip on the initial charge?  Once I am convinced my
unit is stable (which will probably be another six months or so, after I get
my 3458A's re-calibrated by Agilent), I hope to be able to send it to Fluke
for calibration.

Fluke made a transit case (732A-7002) and a Battery Charger and Auxiliary
Battery Case (732A-7003).  However, I have never seen a picture of either of
these.  Does anyone have any information on these?

How did you make your case?  Did you include a charger?  Combination of
battery pack and shipping container or separate battery pack and shipping
container?

I was thinking of building a case with built-in charger, fuse, and AC
connector and cord such that when the unit arrived at the CAL facility all
that would be needed would be to plug it in and allow the external battery
pack to recharge while the unit being calibrated was plugged in, recharge
the internal batteries, and calibrated.  Or does the 732A also charge the
external battery pack along with the internal batteries?

The connector you need (complete with female contacts) is a Hypertronics P/N
D01PB306FSTAH and is in stock at Kensington Electronics at $8.96 each (plus
tax and shipping).  Only problem is their $50 minimum order.

The 'shell' only is P/N D01PB306NT and the female contact is P/N
YSK006-010ANH (three needed).

http://ecommerce.keiconn.com/hypertronics/D01PB306FSTAH

I ordered two of the connectors from Fluke using a P/N that one of the Fluke
folks in their eCal facility gave me, noting that someone else had asked the
same question a couple of weeks earlier, with Fluke Item# 2181497, described
as '100-166, PLUG - MALE, HYPERTRONICS'.  They were $12.31 each (plus tax
and shipping) and arrived as the shell only, no contacts.

If Fluke solves their supply chain problem, I sure would like to get the six
female contacts I need to make my connectors 'complete'.  When I got on the
phone with Fluke, I could never find anyone that had any knowledge about
this.  Is there anyone there I should ask for that might understand my
question?

I look forward to your posting the update from Fluke.

Thanks.

Joe


___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there. 



___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-06-12 Thread R.Phillips

Todd
Thank you - I'm sure you are right - leave alone - as my 24 micro V is very 
stable, and always come up following an auto-cal. on the 3458A The 1.0800 v 
reads 1.018006 , and the 1. v reads 1.10. I gather the latter two 
outputs are derived from the 10 volt source, so would be affected by any 
adjustment.

Roy


-Original Message- 
From: Todd Micallef

Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 3:20 PM
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

Roy,

The 732A uses the 3059Y-1-101 type cermet pot for the 10V adjustment. You
can use a simple plastic tweaking tool for adjustment. I believe you will
need a fairly long tool. You can shine a light into one of the other holes
to see the orientation of the pot. However, many people may prefer to leave
the pot as is and just record the readings. It is going to drift anyway and
won't stay adjusted for long. The drift may worsen once the pot position
has changed too. I have adjusted mine, but only after the broken pots were
replaced.

Todd


On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 9:57 AM, R.Phillips phill...@btinternet.com wrote:


Hi Joe
Sorry if I am retracing steps, but I have recently had my 3458A
restored/recal'd  by Agilent - its good to have it back. I also have a
Fluke 732A which I can now check. Currently it is 10.24 volts, I now
feel confident to trim it to the 3458A. I have tried to see the trimmers 
in

each of the three holes - they appear to be some way within, and I am
wondering if you could confirm the type of pot. that is used and just how
long a trimming device is required. Is this a special tool only available
from Fluke ?
Regards
Roy Phillips.


-Original Message- From: J. L. Trantham
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 10:09 PM

To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

Charles,

What size batteries did you use for your external pack and where are you
located?  In other words, how long can your external battery pack 
'survive'
keeping the 732A 'hot'?  Is the external pack recharged at Fluke or does 
it

have to make a round trip on the initial charge?  Once I am convinced my
unit is stable (which will probably be another six months or so, after I
get
my 3458A's re-calibrated by Agilent), I hope to be able to send it to 
Fluke

for calibration.

Fluke made a transit case (732A-7002) and a Battery Charger and Auxiliary
Battery Case (732A-7003).  However, I have never seen a picture of either
of
these.  Does anyone have any information on these?

How did you make your case?  Did you include a charger?  Combination of
battery pack and shipping container or separate battery pack and shipping
container?

I was thinking of building a case with built-in charger, fuse, and AC
connector and cord such that when the unit arrived at the CAL facility all
that would be needed would be to plug it in and allow the external battery
pack to recharge while the unit being calibrated was plugged in, recharge
the internal batteries, and calibrated.  Or does the 732A also charge the
external battery pack along with the internal batteries?

The connector you need (complete with female contacts) is a Hypertronics
P/N
D01PB306FSTAH and is in stock at Kensington Electronics at $8.96 each 
(plus

tax and shipping).  Only problem is their $50 minimum order.

The 'shell' only is P/N D01PB306NT and the female contact is P/N
YSK006-010ANH (three needed).

http://ecommerce.keiconn.com/hypertronics/D01PB306FSTAH

I ordered two of the connectors from Fluke using a P/N that one of the
Fluke
folks in their eCal facility gave me, noting that someone else had asked
the
same question a couple of weeks earlier, with Fluke Item# 2181497,
described
as '100-166, PLUG - MALE, HYPERTRONICS'.  They were $12.31 each (plus tax
and shipping) and arrived as the shell only, no contacts.

If Fluke solves their supply chain problem, I sure would like to get the
six
female contacts I need to make my connectors 'complete'.  When I got on 
the

phone with Fluke, I could never find anyone that had any knowledge about
this.  Is there anyone there I should ask for that might understand my
question?

I look forward to your posting the update from Fluke.

Thanks.

Joe


___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there. 



___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts

Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-06-12 Thread Bill Gold
Roy:

I use a ( General Cement ) GC 8276 adjustment tool to make the pot
adjustments in the 732A.  I use the end that has the recessed metal blade.
The pots are about 3.5 inches back from the front panel.  It sometimes is
very difficult to engage the tool slot in the pot.  It helps to look through
the front panel hole with a small flashlight and observe the position of the
slot in the pot ( i.e. 9, 10, 11 o'clock for example ).  Then when you
insert the adjustment tool you can get close to the point when you can
engage the adjustment pot.  Sometimes it will seem impossible to engage the
tool into the slot, but with patience it can be done.  Once you do engage
the pot do whatever adjustment you want, don't pull the tool out, just leave
the tool engaged with the pot so that if you want to make another small
change you won't have to go through the same problem of trying again and
again to engage.
I have found that turning the pots may cause a drift which will show up
days later due to the pot being dirty or whatever.  So what I usually do
is to turn the pot back and forth over several revolutions so that I can
clean the contact wiper.  I usually make an initial adjustment and then
turn the pot about 1/32 of a turn in the opposite direction just to relieve
any stress that might be there and cause a small change in the output
voltage.  I usually have very good results with these methods.
But I will agree with Joe that sometimes it is better just to leave
things alone and just use the known offset from 10 volts when checking or
doing cals.
Bill


- Original Message - 
From: Todd Micallef tmical...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?


 Roy,

 The 732A uses the 3059Y-1-101 type cermet pot for the 10V adjustment. You
 can use a simple plastic tweaking tool for adjustment. I believe you will
 need a fairly long tool. You can shine a light into one of the other holes
 to see the orientation of the pot. However, many people may prefer to
leave
 the pot as is and just record the readings. It is going to drift anyway
and
 won't stay adjusted for long. The drift may worsen once the pot position
 has changed too. I have adjusted mine, but only after the broken pots were
 replaced.

 Todd


 On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 9:57 AM, R.Phillips phill...@btinternet.com
wrote:

  Hi Joe
  Sorry if I am retracing steps, but I have recently had my 3458A
  restored/recal'd  by Agilent - its good to have it back. I also have a
  Fluke 732A which I can now check. Currently it is 10.24 volts, I now
  feel confident to trim it to the 3458A. I have tried to see the trimmers
in
  each of the three holes - they appear to be some way within, and I am
  wondering if you could confirm the type of pot. that is used and just
how
  long a trimming device is required. Is this a special tool only
available
  from Fluke ?
  Regards
  Roy Phillips.
 
 
  -Original Message- From: J. L. Trantham
  Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 10:09 PM
 
  To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'
  Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
 
  Charles,
 
  What size batteries did you use for your external pack and where are you
  located?  In other words, how long can your external battery pack
'survive'
  keeping the 732A 'hot'?  Is the external pack recharged at Fluke or does
it
  have to make a round trip on the initial charge?  Once I am convinced my
  unit is stable (which will probably be another six months or so, after I
  get
  my 3458A's re-calibrated by Agilent), I hope to be able to send it to
Fluke
  for calibration.
 
  Fluke made a transit case (732A-7002) and a Battery Charger and
Auxiliary
  Battery Case (732A-7003).  However, I have never seen a picture of
either
  of
  these.  Does anyone have any information on these?
 
  How did you make your case?  Did you include a charger?  Combination of
  battery pack and shipping container or separate battery pack and
shipping
  container?
 
  I was thinking of building a case with built-in charger, fuse, and AC
  connector and cord such that when the unit arrived at the CAL facility
all
  that would be needed would be to plug it in and allow the external
battery
  pack to recharge while the unit being calibrated was plugged in,
recharge
  the internal batteries, and calibrated.  Or does the 732A also charge
the
  external battery pack along with the internal batteries?
 
  The connector you need (complete with female contacts) is a Hypertronics
  P/N
  D01PB306FSTAH and is in stock at Kensington Electronics at $8.96 each
(plus
  tax and shipping).  Only problem is their $50 minimum order.
 
  The 'shell' only is P/N D01PB306NT and the female contact is P/N
  YSK006-010ANH (three needed).
 
  http://ecommerce.keiconn.com/hypertronics/D01PB306FSTAH
 
  I ordered two of the connectors from Fluke using a P/N that one

Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-06-12 Thread Charles Black

Hi Roy,

I would like to second Todd's advice about leaving the Fluke 732A's 
output voltage adjustment alone. You already have stable outputs and 24 
microvolts high is very acceptable. My Datron 4910 (four output supply) 
has predictable digital output level settings that doesn't have any luck 
involved so it is a better candidate for resetting the standards than 
the Fluke 732A. I had Fluke reset them last calibration because I had 
just repaired the Datron 4910 and my voltages were all over the place 
but stable.  Also I would expect your Fluke 732A to about as temperature 
stable as my Datron 4910. In my experience my 3458A needs to be at 23C 
to calibrate. Also it should have the fan filter freshly cleaned and 
record the 3458A's internal temperature. I have recorded (over several 
days) each Datron 4910 output with my 3458A and a switch and can say 
that the Datrons are temperature stable but not my 3458A.


Charlie

On 6/12/2014 7:54 AM, Bill Gold wrote:

Roy:

 I use a ( General Cement ) GC 8276 adjustment tool to make the pot
adjustments in the 732A.  I use the end that has the recessed metal blade.
The pots are about 3.5 inches back from the front panel.  It sometimes is
very difficult to engage the tool slot in the pot.  It helps to look through
the front panel hole with a small flashlight and observe the position of the
slot in the pot ( i.e. 9, 10, 11 o'clock for example ).  Then when you
insert the adjustment tool you can get close to the point when you can
engage the adjustment pot.  Sometimes it will seem impossible to engage the
tool into the slot, but with patience it can be done.  Once you do engage
the pot do whatever adjustment you want, don't pull the tool out, just leave
the tool engaged with the pot so that if you want to make another small
change you won't have to go through the same problem of trying again and
again to engage.
 I have found that turning the pots may cause a drift which will show up
days later due to the pot being dirty or whatever.  So what I usually do
is to turn the pot back and forth over several revolutions so that I can
clean the contact wiper.  I usually make an initial adjustment and then
turn the pot about 1/32 of a turn in the opposite direction just to relieve
any stress that might be there and cause a small change in the output
voltage.  I usually have very good results with these methods.
 But I will agree with Joe that sometimes it is better just to leave
things alone and just use the known offset from 10 volts when checking or
doing cals.
Bill


- Original Message -
From: Todd Micallef tmical...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?



Roy,

The 732A uses the 3059Y-1-101 type cermet pot for the 10V adjustment. You
can use a simple plastic tweaking tool for adjustment. I believe you will
need a fairly long tool. You can shine a light into one of the other holes
to see the orientation of the pot. However, many people may prefer to

leave

the pot as is and just record the readings. It is going to drift anyway

and

won't stay adjusted for long. The drift may worsen once the pot position
has changed too. I have adjusted mine, but only after the broken pots were
replaced.

Todd


On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 9:57 AM, R.Phillips phill...@btinternet.com

wrote:

Hi Joe
Sorry if I am retracing steps, but I have recently had my 3458A
restored/recal'd  by Agilent - its good to have it back. I also have a
Fluke 732A which I can now check. Currently it is 10.24 volts, I now
feel confident to trim it to the 3458A. I have tried to see the trimmers

in

each of the three holes - they appear to be some way within, and I am
wondering if you could confirm the type of pot. that is used and just

how

long a trimming device is required. Is this a special tool only

available

from Fluke ?
Regards
Roy Phillips.


-Original Message- From: J. L. Trantham
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 10:09 PM

To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

Charles,

What size batteries did you use for your external pack and where are you
located?  In other words, how long can your external battery pack

'survive'

keeping the 732A 'hot'?  Is the external pack recharged at Fluke or does

it

have to make a round trip on the initial charge?  Once I am convinced my
unit is stable (which will probably be another six months or so, after I
get
my 3458A's re-calibrated by Agilent), I hope to be able to send it to

Fluke

for calibration.

Fluke made a transit case (732A-7002) and a Battery Charger and

Auxiliary

Battery Case (732A-7003).  However, I have never seen a picture of

either

of
these.  Does anyone have any information on these?

How did you make your case?  Did you include a charger?  Combination of
battery pack and shipping container or separate battery

Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-08 Thread Dr. David Kirkby
On 8 Mar 2014 05:57, Charles Steinmetz csteinm...@yandex.com wrote:

 Michael wrote:

 The battery is big concern to me. When I called Fluke, one of the rep
said it should be shipped to them hot Because 732A's battery life is very
limited, it should be shipped using Morning Service. I was going to call
FedEx if they have 12 hours service. And I belive most cal lab require the
732A to be delivered hot. The manual says so.


 No matter what you do, short of hand-delivering it if you live close
enough, the internal battery does not have enough charge to reliably ship
it, even overnight.  You will need to build or buy a shipping container
that has an auxiliary battery.  Fluke sells external battery packs for
$375, or you can make your own.

Be careful about shipping issues on high energy batteries. Depending on the
capacity, they may need to be declared as dangerous goods. I recently
needed to ship a Lithium Ion battery about the size of a laptop battery.
The courier I normally use (Interparcel, who subcontract to UPS, Fedex or
whoever one chooses), wont handle batteries. Going directly to Fedex,
without having a contract, cost a fortune, although they would carry the
battery.

The fact a battery is external to the equipment makes it even more tricky
to ship, since I guess there is more chance of a short developing in such a
case.

Dave
___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-08 Thread J. L. Trantham
Charles,

Thanks for the info on batteries.  I agree, some are definitely better than
others.  However, I'm no 'connoisseur' of batteries yet.  The 732A I got was
'unknown working condition' and I wanted the cheapest batteries I could find
to test the unit and see if I could get it up and running.  So far, it looks
good.

Do you wind up having to re-solder some of the battery wires in the battery
module in order to use the 12 V 5 AH batteries or will they just swing to
the other side since it appears that the (+) and (-) terminals will wind up
on the same side, instead of opposite sides with the 6 V 4.5 AH batteries?

I have not faced the shipping question yet, but, as David pointed out, there
is an issue with shipping batteries.  I suspect it could be shipped but
would be ground and, therefore, need a huge battery in order to get it to
the other side of the country 'hot'.  I recall reading some thoughts on
current drain for the unit when on batteries but I do not remember what it
was.  Clearly, it should be at a minimum, and therefore the battery should
last the longest, when already 'hot' when removed from AC power.  Has anyone
done that experiment?  I live in NW FL and I am not aware of Cal Labs in my
neighborhood that could do the work.  Atlanta, perhaps?  Does anyone have a
recommendation of a capable Cal facility 'close by' to NW FL?

Short of sending it to Fluke or another facility, I will be limited to using
my Agilent Cal'd 3458A to 'adjust' the 732A, then 'tracking' the 732A from
year to year as the 3458A comes back from Cal.

I paid less than Michael and more than you for my unit but it seems to work.
I have seen these sell on theBay for $450 and up.

Joe


___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-08 Thread Tom Knox
In my humble opinion your are best off first checking for a local Cal Lab with 
a Josephson Junction Array Voltage Standard.
You can then drop it off and pick it up your 732A. I would imagine the day of 
abuse during shipping has more effect on uncertainty then the rest of the year 
combined sitting in a controlled lab environment. And Speaking of Lab 
environments adding precise temp and humidity control will have a substantial 
effect on 732A and 3458A stability. Hooking a number of small electric heaters 
to PID controllers can provide even out room temperature.  Also I would almost 
always assume the 732A is more accurate then your 3458A even if you have the 
002 or HFL option. Has anyone attempted changing the battery technology to 
Li-Ion and redesigning the charger? I am sure you could get greatly improved 
battery life.

Thomas Knox



 From: jlt...@att.net
 To: volt-nuts@febo.com
 Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 07:50:55 -0600
 Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
 
 Charles,
 
 Thanks for the info on batteries.  I agree, some are definitely better than
 others.  However, I'm no 'connoisseur' of batteries yet.  The 732A I got was
 'unknown working condition' and I wanted the cheapest batteries I could find
 to test the unit and see if I could get it up and running.  So far, it looks
 good.
 
 Do you wind up having to re-solder some of the battery wires in the battery
 module in order to use the 12 V 5 AH batteries or will they just swing to
 the other side since it appears that the (+) and (-) terminals will wind up
 on the same side, instead of opposite sides with the 6 V 4.5 AH batteries?
 
 I have not faced the shipping question yet, but, as David pointed out, there
 is an issue with shipping batteries.  I suspect it could be shipped but
 would be ground and, therefore, need a huge battery in order to get it to
 the other side of the country 'hot'.  I recall reading some thoughts on
 current drain for the unit when on batteries but I do not remember what it
 was.  Clearly, it should be at a minimum, and therefore the battery should
 last the longest, when already 'hot' when removed from AC power.  Has anyone
 done that experiment?  I live in NW FL and I am not aware of Cal Labs in my
 neighborhood that could do the work.  Atlanta, perhaps?  Does anyone have a
 recommendation of a capable Cal facility 'close by' to NW FL?
 
 Short of sending it to Fluke or another facility, I will be limited to using
 my Agilent Cal'd 3458A to 'adjust' the 732A, then 'tracking' the 732A from
 year to year as the 3458A comes back from Cal.
 
 I paid less than Michael and more than you for my unit but it seems to work.
 I have seen these sell on theBay for $450 and up.
 
 Joe
 
 
 ___
 volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
  
___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-08 Thread Charles Steinmetz

Joe wrote:


Do you wind up having to re-solder some of the battery wires in the battery
module in order to use the 12 V 5 AH batteries or will they just swing to
the other side since it appears that the (+) and (-) terminals will wind up
on the same side, instead of opposite sides with the 6 V 4.5 AH batteries?


Sorry, I don't recall.  Obviously, you need to remove some of the 
wires since you only have 4 terminals.  You also need to use a 
nibbler to enlarge the holes for the terminals.  All of that will be 
instantly apparent when you have the batteries and the battery pack 
in front of you.  I've only converted one myself, which was not mine 
-- all of mine have Fluke stickers on the back that say, EXTENDED 
BATTERY LIFE, which I believe is Fluke's way of indicating that they 
did the conversion.


I have not faced the shipping question yet, but, as David pointed 
out, there is an issue with shipping batteries.


I use FedEx overnight with first thing delivery and have not had 
any problems.  They slap some colorful stickers on the box and off it 
goes.  My external battery box is internally fused and has a 
Hypertronics panel-mount connector identical to the one on the 732A, 
so I use a cable with one of the Hypertronics plugs at each end to 
connect them.  I built a padded wooden shipping crate with separate 
compartments for the 732A and the external battery pack and a channel 
for the cable.


Speaking of the Hypertronics connectors, I expect to know more about 
how to order them from Fluke in the weeks to come.  You may recall I 
asked a couple of weeks ago for confirmation that the panel-mount 
connectors on all 732As have male pins (by all I mean all of the 
newer ones with circular connectors for DC input, leaving aside the 
older ones with 4mm banana jacks).  They do, which means the plugs 
need female contacts.  This is backwards from the way these 
connectors are traditionally assembled.


The part number I posted back on 12/30/13 is a current number, but it 
is a part used by the BioMed division and is NOT the connector we 
need -- the BioMed division assembles them the traditional way -- 
male contacts in the plug, and female contacts in the panel-mount connector.


All of this came to light after I gave that part number to a friend 
and, like some others have reported, he received the plastic body 
parts but no contacts.  He called Fluke and eventually received the 
contacts -- but they were male.  After many e-mails and phone calls, 
it became clear (i) that Fluke had a supply-chain problem that caused 
the plastic bodies to be stocked and shipped without contacts, but 
(ii) the contacts that were supposed to come with that part number 
are the wrong gender for a 732A in any case.  Fluke reports that the 
supply chain problems are fixed, so the plugs under that part number 
should now come with [male] contacts, but they have not yet created a 
new part number for the plug that 732A owners need (plug body with 
female contacts).  When they do, Fluke will tell him, he will tell 
me, and I will post the details.


All this was news to me, because my records show that the part number 
I posted is the one I ordered 8 or 10 years ago, and at that time I 
received plugs that work with the 732A.  Puzzling.  But in any case, 
my friend says Fluke understands the issue and will fix it.


It took some effort, but in the end Fluke was very responsive to an 
individual volt nut hobbyist looking for parts for an instrument that 
went out of production in 1992 (I had no idea it was that long 
ago).  They deserve high praise for this, particularly when you 
compare it to reports about support from other instrument makers.


Best regards,

Charles



___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-08 Thread Charles Steinmetz

Thomas wrote:

In my humble opinion your are best off first checking for a local 
Cal Lab with a Josephson Junction Array Voltage Standard.


What you need is a cal lab that is accredited under the NIST NVLAP 
program (or possibly by A2LA) and that has a DC source calibration 
uncertainty certified to be 0.02 ppm or less, at least at 10v.  The 
Fluke cal lab meets this criterion, as do the Los Alamos and Sandia 
standards labs (and, of course, NIST itself).  Precious few others do.


A list of NVLAP-accredited labs can be found here:

http://ts.nist.gov/standards/scopes/dclow.htm

Certified uncertainties are found in each lab's current Scope of 
Accreditation document.


Best regards,

Charles



___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-08 Thread Chuck Harris

Surely that isn't true... otherwise laptop computers and cell phones
wouldn't be allowed on board passenger aircraft.  A laptop computer's
battery would greatly exceed the power in the original 732A battery
pack.

-Chuck Harris

Tom Miller wrote:

If you change to Li-Ion, you give up the ability to ship by air or at least 
carry it
in any passenger aircraft.

You might look at the Li-Ion motorcycle batteries. They are designed to charge 
from a
normal Pb-Ac system. Down side is a pair of them will run ~$600. They are 20 
AH at
12 volts nominal.

Regards,
Tom


___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-08 Thread J. L. Trantham
Charles,

What size batteries did you use for your external pack and where are you
located?  In other words, how long can your external battery pack 'survive'
keeping the 732A 'hot'?  Is the external pack recharged at Fluke or does it
have to make a round trip on the initial charge?  Once I am convinced my
unit is stable (which will probably be another six months or so, after I get
my 3458A's re-calibrated by Agilent), I hope to be able to send it to Fluke
for calibration.

Fluke made a transit case (732A-7002) and a Battery Charger and Auxiliary
Battery Case (732A-7003).  However, I have never seen a picture of either of
these.  Does anyone have any information on these?

How did you make your case?  Did you include a charger?  Combination of
battery pack and shipping container or separate battery pack and shipping
container?  

I was thinking of building a case with built-in charger, fuse, and AC
connector and cord such that when the unit arrived at the CAL facility all
that would be needed would be to plug it in and allow the external battery
pack to recharge while the unit being calibrated was plugged in, recharge
the internal batteries, and calibrated.  Or does the 732A also charge the
external battery pack along with the internal batteries?

The connector you need (complete with female contacts) is a Hypertronics P/N
D01PB306FSTAH and is in stock at Kensington Electronics at $8.96 each (plus
tax and shipping).  Only problem is their $50 minimum order.

The 'shell' only is P/N D01PB306NT and the female contact is P/N
YSK006-010ANH (three needed).

http://ecommerce.keiconn.com/hypertronics/D01PB306FSTAH

I ordered two of the connectors from Fluke using a P/N that one of the Fluke
folks in their eCal facility gave me, noting that someone else had asked the
same question a couple of weeks earlier, with Fluke Item# 2181497, described
as '100-166, PLUG - MALE, HYPERTRONICS'.  They were $12.31 each (plus tax
and shipping) and arrived as the shell only, no contacts.

If Fluke solves their supply chain problem, I sure would like to get the six
female contacts I need to make my connectors 'complete'.  When I got on the
phone with Fluke, I could never find anyone that had any knowledge about
this.  Is there anyone there I should ask for that might understand my
question? 

I look forward to your posting the update from Fluke.

Thanks.

Joe


___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-08 Thread Robert Atkinson
Hi David,
Our posts crossed. Note that the laptop battery has been independently safety 
tested. Or at least it should have been. Also you are no longer allowed to put 
batteries in you checked airline luggage, only carry-on and there are limits on 
the Lithium content (now expressed in WH to make it easier). This is pure 
safety addressing a very real hazard. The krytron restriction is ITAR (google 
it) as they are used to fire slapper detonators in nuclear weapons (that 
probably got a ping on a monitoring service;-).

Robert G8RPI.





 From: David C. Partridge david.partri...@perdrix.co.uk
To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement' volt-nuts@febo.com 
Sent: Saturday, 8 March 2014, 22:04
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
 

You can ship a Li-Ion or Li-Po battery inside a laptop no problem, but not
on its own. 

No it doesn't make sense except to the postal/shipping/airline safety types.
Probably the same logic that applies to exporting krytrons (even though Made
in China applies to these too).anymore).

Regards,
David Partridge 
-Original Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chuck Harris

Sent: 08 March 2014 21:36
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

Surely that isn't true... otherwise laptop computers and cell phones
wouldn't be allowed on board passenger aircraft.  A laptop computer's
battery would greatly exceed the power in the original 732A battery pack.

-Chuck Harris

___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-08 Thread Tom Miller
Some laptop batteries are not allowed. Spares have some limits also. Better 
check because TSA will take them from you.



 Lithium-ion batteries (a.k.a.: rechargeable lithium, lithium polymer, 
LIPO, secondary lithium). Passengers may carry all


consumer-sized lithium-ion batteries (no more than 8 grams of equivalent 
lithium content or 100 watt hours per battery). This


size covers AA, AAA, cell phone, PDA, camera, camcorder, handheld game, 
tablet, and standard laptop computer batteries.


The watt hours (Wh) rating is marked on newer lithium ion batteries and is 
explained in #3 below.


Passengers can also bring two (2) larger lithium-ion batteries (more than 8 
less than 25 grams of equivalent lithium content per


battery or about 100-300 watt hours per battery) in their carry-on. This 
size covers the largest aftermarket extended-life laptop


batteries and most lithium-ion batteries for professional-grade audio/visual 
equipment. Most lithium-ion batteries are below


this size.









- Original Message - 
From: Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com

To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?



Surely that isn't true... otherwise laptop computers and cell phones
wouldn't be allowed on board passenger aircraft.  A laptop computer's
battery would greatly exceed the power in the original 732A battery
pack.

-Chuck Harris

Tom Miller wrote:
If you change to Li-Ion, you give up the ability to ship by air or at 
least carry it

in any passenger aircraft.

You might look at the Li-Ion motorcycle batteries. They are designed to 
charge from a
normal Pb-Ac system. Down side is a pair of them will run ~$600. They are 
 20 AH at

12 volts nominal.

Regards,
Tom


___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there. 


___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-08 Thread Tony
Unfortunately the hazards are indeed very real. The regulations were 
almost certainly introduced because a UPS cargo plane crashed in Dubai 
in 2010, killing both crew, as a result of a catastrophic fire in the 
cargo of 80,000 to 90,000 lithium batteries.


http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324110404578625801602671408

And surprise, surprise:

'It added that shippers of some of the lithium battery cargo loaded onto 
the plane in Hong Kong did not properly declare these shipments and 
did not provide battery test reports recommended under U.N. aviation 
guidelines.'


(Which may be of interest to those buying those AD584LH voltage 
reference modules containing a lithium battery from Ebay).


And from

http://www.flyingmag.com/news/ups-747-crash-highlights-lithium-battery-danger

In a *recent report issued by the FAA in conjunction with Transport 
Canada* http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-13-2.pdf, the agencies 
predicted there will be an average of six cargo plane crashes between 
now and 2021, with four of them likely to be caused by battery fires.
Read more at 
http://www.flyingmag.com/news/ups-747-crash-highlights-lithium-battery-danger#1FZYPdiLXxLz0Fby.99
'In a recent report issued by the FAA in conjunction with Transport 
Canada, the agencies predicted there will be an average of six cargo 
plane crashes between now and 2021, with four of them likely to be 
caused by battery fires.'


Tony H

On 08/03/2014 22:32, Robert Atkinson wrote:

Hi David,
Our posts crossed. Note that the laptop battery has been independently safety 
tested. Or at least it should have been. Also you are no longer allowed to put 
batteries in you checked airline luggage, only carry-on and there are limits on 
the Lithium content (now expressed in WH to make it easier). This is pure 
safety addressing a very real hazard. The krytron restriction is ITAR (google 
it) as they are used to fire slapper detonators in nuclear weapons (that 
probably got a ping on a monitoring service;-).

Robert G8RPI.





  From: David C. Partridgedavid.partri...@perdrix.co.uk
To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'volt-nuts@febo.com  
Sent: Saturday, 8 March 2014, 22:04

Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
  


You can ship a Li-Ion or Li-Po battery inside a laptop no problem, but not
on its own.

No it doesn't make sense except to the postal/shipping/airline safety types.
Probably the same logic that applies to exporting krytrons (even though Made
in China applies to these too).anymore).

Regards,
David Partridge
-Original Message-
From:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com  [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chuck Harris

Sent: 08 March 2014 21:36
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

Surely that isn't true... otherwise laptop computers and cell phones
wouldn't be allowed on board passenger aircraft.  A laptop computer's
battery would greatly exceed the power in the original 732A battery pack.

-Chuck Harris

___
volt-nuts mailing list --volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go tohttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
___
volt-nuts mailing list --volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go tohttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-08 Thread Tom Knox
I think everyone missed my point, Replace the current battery with ANY other 
type battery that is not destroyed by deep cyclng. Perhaps Ni-Mh would be 
better. Ni-Mh also has a very consistent output voltage (Low voltage drop) 
until nearly discharged. Also a quick Google search found a wealth of 
information on shipping Li-Ion and it appears the 732A batteries are right on 
the edge of no shipping restriction.

Thomas Knox



 Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2014 23:56:19 +
 From: vn...@toneh.demon.co.uk
 To: volt-nuts@febo.com
 Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
 
 Unfortunately the hazards are indeed very real. The regulations were 
 almost certainly introduced because a UPS cargo plane crashed in Dubai 
 in 2010, killing both crew, as a result of a catastrophic fire in the 
 cargo of 80,000 to 90,000 lithium batteries.
 
 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324110404578625801602671408
 
 And surprise, surprise:
 
 'It added that shippers of some of the lithium battery cargo loaded onto 
 the plane in Hong Kong did not properly declare these shipments and 
 did not provide battery test reports recommended under U.N. aviation 
 guidelines.'
 
 (Which may be of interest to those buying those AD584LH voltage 
 reference modules containing a lithium battery from Ebay).
 
 And from
 
 http://www.flyingmag.com/news/ups-747-crash-highlights-lithium-battery-danger
 
 In a *recent report issued by the FAA in conjunction with Transport 
 Canada* http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-13-2.pdf, the agencies 
 predicted there will be an average of six cargo plane crashes between 
 now and 2021, with four of them likely to be caused by battery fires.
 Read more at 
 http://www.flyingmag.com/news/ups-747-crash-highlights-lithium-battery-danger#1FZYPdiLXxLz0Fby.99
 'In a recent report issued by the FAA in conjunction with Transport 
 Canada, the agencies predicted there will be an average of six cargo 
 plane crashes between now and 2021, with four of them likely to be 
 caused by battery fires.'
 
 Tony H
 
 On 08/03/2014 22:32, Robert Atkinson wrote:
  Hi David,
  Our posts crossed. Note that the laptop battery has been independently 
  safety tested. Or at least it should have been. Also you are no longer 
  allowed to put batteries in you checked airline luggage, only carry-on and 
  there are limits on the Lithium content (now expressed in WH to make it 
  easier). This is pure safety addressing a very real hazard. The krytron 
  restriction is ITAR (google it) as they are used to fire slapper detonators 
  in nuclear weapons (that probably got a ping on a monitoring service;-).
 
  Robert G8RPI.
 
 
 
 
  
From: David C. Partridgedavid.partri...@perdrix.co.uk
  To: 'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'volt-nuts@febo.com  
  Sent: Saturday, 8 March 2014, 22:04
  Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

 
  You can ship a Li-Ion or Li-Po battery inside a laptop no problem, but not
  on its own.
 
  No it doesn't make sense except to the postal/shipping/airline safety types.
  Probably the same logic that applies to exporting krytrons (even though Made
  in China applies to these too).anymore).
 
  Regards,
  David Partridge
  -Original Message-
  From:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com  [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
  Behalf Of Chuck Harris
 
  Sent: 08 March 2014 21:36
  To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
  Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?
 
  Surely that isn't true... otherwise laptop computers and cell phones
  wouldn't be allowed on board passenger aircraft.  A laptop computer's
  battery would greatly exceed the power in the original 732A battery pack.
 
  -Chuck Harris
 
  ___
  volt-nuts mailing list --volt-nuts@febo.com
  To unsubscribe, go tohttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
  and follow the instructions there.
  ___
  volt-nuts mailing list --volt-nuts@febo.com
  To unsubscribe, go tohttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
  and follow the instructions there.
 
 
 ___
 volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.
  
___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


[volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-07 Thread Michael Hong
Hi nuts,
This is my first message. Just reading the posted messages is a big learning to 
me so I didn't post but instead trying to read all.

Here is my issue.

I received a Fluke 732A yesterday which was purchased from an eBay seller.


(1)
I plugged in and started measuring the 3 voltages and thermistor resistance 
value.
After about 2 hours later all 3 voltages were stabilized and thermistor value 
stabilized after 24 hours.

All voltages and thermistor values were measured on a HP 3457 which was 
calibrated and certified by a local cal lab 10 months ago. Here is how I 
measure: After changing the connection to a different voltage I wait 30 second. 
I start STAT and wait 1 minute and R MEAN.

10V  (10.000360 36.0ppm, 360uV)
1V    (1.383 38.3ppm, 38.3uV)
1.018V  (1.0180200 20ppm, 20uV)

According to the manual adjustable(calibration) ranges are:
10V 5ppm 50uV
1V   5ppm 5uV
1.018   50ppm 50uV

So obviously either 732A or 3457A is wrong.
I tried to contact the person who calibrated the HP 3457A. No response. 

(2)
No light on BTRY CHG and IN CAL
Rear panel Battery Operation switch is on.

(3)
Front panel calibration hole
I put a thin flat blade driver into the holes. I couldn't feel anything until 4 
1/4 inside where I felt something but not the potentiometer.



I offered to the seller that if I find the 732A is no problem but only requires 
the new battery, refunding $150 for the battery will close the deal. All other 
case, I return the item. 

He responded Just return it.

My questions:
(1) Which one is wrong the DMM or 732A?
(2) What is the cheapest battery replacement cost?
(3) Were the calibration mechanism removed or they are there? In manual I 
couldn't find any detailed description or diagram of it.

Last, I paid $650 plus $35 shipping. Do you think it is worth without battery, 
if voltages are in the range?

Michael
___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-07 Thread Orin Eman
Best I can tell, the 3457A 1 year spec is 0.0040% of reading + 19 counts
for 6.5 digits on the 30V scale, 100PLC, cal temp +/- 5 deg C.

Your 10.00036 V reading is therefore +/- 0.00059 V.  I'd say you can't
really tell with the 3457A whether the 732A is close or not.

Orin.


On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 4:19 PM, Michael Hong mikeya...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Hi nuts,
 This is my first message. Just reading the posted messages is a big
 learning to me so I didn't post but instead trying to read all.

 Here is my issue.

 I received a Fluke 732A yesterday which was purchased from an eBay seller.


 (1)
 I plugged in and started measuring the 3 voltages and thermistor
 resistance value.
 After about 2 hours later all 3 voltages were stabilized and thermistor
 value stabilized after 24 hours.

 All voltages and thermistor values were measured on a HP 3457 which was
 calibrated and certified by a local cal lab 10 months ago. Here is how I
 measure: After changing the connection to a different voltage I wait 30
 second. I start STAT and wait 1 minute and R MEAN.

 10V  (10.000360 36.0ppm, 360uV)
 1V(1.383 38.3ppm, 38.3uV)
 1.018V  (1.0180200 20ppm, 20uV)

 According to the manual adjustable(calibration) ranges are:
 10V 5ppm 50uV
 1V   5ppm 5uV
 1.018   50ppm 50uV

 So obviously either 732A or 3457A is wrong.
 I tried to contact the person who calibrated the HP 3457A. No response.

 (2)
 No light on BTRY CHG and IN CAL
 Rear panel Battery Operation switch is on.

 (3)
 Front panel calibration hole
 I put a thin flat blade driver into the holes. I couldn't feel anything
 until 4 1/4 inside where I felt something but not the potentiometer.



 I offered to the seller that if I find the 732A is no problem but only
 requires the new battery, refunding $150 for the battery will close the
 deal. All other case, I return the item.

 He responded Just return it.

 My questions:
 (1) Which one is wrong the DMM or 732A?
 (2) What is the cheapest battery replacement cost?
 (3) Were the calibration mechanism removed or they are there? In manual I
 couldn't find any detailed description or diagram of it.

 Last, I paid $650 plus $35 shipping. Do you think it is worth without
 battery, if voltages are in the range?

 Michael
 ___
 volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
 https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
 and follow the instructions there.

___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-07 Thread J. L. Trantham
Michael,

I would recommend you download the manual if you have not already done so.
(Sorry, just noticed you had looked at the manual.)

I don't think you are going to have enough resolution with the 3457A to
characterize the 732A, other than a rough idea of stability.  You will need
a 3458A, a Solartron 7081 or some other 8 1/2 digit DMM.

The unit uses four 6 V SLA batteries that are relatively cheap.  I ordered 8
of them since shipping was the same, whether I got 4 or 8.  Unless they were
recently replaced, you will need to replace them.  The 'In Cal' light needs
to be 'reset' after the unit is powered up, stabilized, and calibrated.  It
remains on as long as there is continuous power applied to the unit, either
from AC, the battery pack, or an external battery attached to the connector
on the back.  I have a spare connector, yours for cost plus shipping, if you
need one.  Two others on the list have sent me the money for one but work
has really interfered with my life this week and I have not yet shipped
them.  It will be tomorrow.  (Sorry, guys, my apologies.)

The batteries I ordered are these:
http://www.batteryclerk.com/store/p/80492-Panasonic-LC-RB064P-Sealed-Lead-Ac
id-AGM-VRLA-Battery.html  $5.69 each plus shipping.

If power is lost, power must be re-attached and the 'In Cal' light 'reset'.
The light is 'reset' by connecting the negative terminal to a spot in the
'reset' hole just below the 'In Cal' light.

If the battery charge light is not on, and the unit is plugged in, the
batteries are either completely charged, not connected, dead, or there is a
problem with the charger circuit.  My bet is a battery issue since I bet you
had to plug in the unit to get it to work.

There is a multi-turn pot inside each of the three holes and they are
difficult to get to but can be seen if you have a flashlight to shine in
essentially parallel to your line of sight.  If the 10 V can't be brought to
exactly 10.000 V, there are 'jumpers' under the top layer of insulation
for the 'heated unit' that can be adjusted to bring it 'in range'.  At least
I was able to bring mine 'in range' and 'calibrated' against my Agilent
Cal'd 3458A.  Mine has been on continuously now for about 2 months.  I
'calibrated' it after it was on for about a week.  It now reads about
9.920 V and seems extremely stable (3458A with NDIG=8 and NPLC=60).  I'm
thinking of 're-calibrating' it and see how close it will stay to 10.000
VDC.  I think it will be more stable the longer it is on.  I have no idea of
how long it was off before I turned it on.

The schematic of the A5 Reference PCB Assembly shows the calibration
adjustments and the drawing of that assembly shows the location of the
adjustments.  They are deep inside the unit.  You'll need a small flat
bladed tool, a flashlight, and probably a magnifier.  I used a length of 12
ga. copper wire with one end flattened to make a screwdriver.

Good luck.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Michael Hong
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 6:19 PM
To: volt-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

Hi nuts,
This is my first message. Just reading the posted messages is a big learning
to me so I didn't post but instead trying to read all.

Here is my issue.

I received a Fluke 732A yesterday which was purchased from an eBay seller.


(1)
I plugged in and started measuring the 3 voltages and thermistor resistance
value.
After about 2 hours later all 3 voltages were stabilized and thermistor
value stabilized after 24 hours.

All voltages and thermistor values were measured on a HP 3457 which was
calibrated and certified by a local cal lab 10 months ago. Here is how I
measure: After changing the connection to a different voltage I wait 30
second. I start STAT and wait 1 minute and R MEAN.

10V  (10.000360 36.0ppm, 360uV)
1V    (1.383 38.3ppm, 38.3uV)
1.018V  (1.0180200 20ppm, 20uV)

According to the manual adjustable(calibration) ranges are:
10V 5ppm 50uV
1V   5ppm 5uV
1.018   50ppm 50uV

So obviously either 732A or 3457A is wrong.
I tried to contact the person who calibrated the HP 3457A. No response. 

(2)
No light on BTRY CHG and IN CAL
Rear panel Battery Operation switch is on.

(3)
Front panel calibration hole
I put a thin flat blade driver into the holes. I couldn't feel anything
until 4 1/4 inside where I felt something but not the potentiometer.



I offered to the seller that if I find the 732A is no problem but only
requires the new battery, refunding $150 for the battery will close the
deal. All other case, I return the item. 

He responded Just return it.

My questions:
(1) Which one is wrong the DMM or 732A?
(2) What is the cheapest battery replacement cost?
(3) Were the calibration mechanism removed or they are there? In manual I
couldn't find any detailed description or diagram of it.

Last, I paid $650 plus $35 shipping. Do you think it is worth

Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-07 Thread Michael Hong
Thank you all for your concerns.

I will reply out of order, sorry.

IN CAL right came on as I poked(turned) with a slim screw driver. Yes, I know 
it supposed to be on after calibration.

AC PWR light turned and stayed on ever since I plugged in the main yesterday.

When I pulled out the main plug as you said, voltages went down immediately. 
Probably the battery is completely gone.

I have been asking quote on this standard from Fluke down to local no name guy 
long before I buy it.
I have no intention of calibrating this by myself. That defeats the purpose of 
the purchase.
Because it will be my primary standard.

I just wanted to turn slightly to both directions to see if the potentiometer 
is working since the 732A's volts looked out of ranges. I calibrated 8 720As 
with Nanovolt Null meter and Keithley 155 last week, so I have no fun left to 
turning the small thing.

The battery is big concern to me. When I called Fluke, one of the rep said it 
should be shipped to them hot Because 732A's battery life is very limited, it 
should be shipped using Morning Service. I was going to call FedEx if they have 
12 hours service. And I belive most cal lab require the 732A to be delivered 
hot. The manual says so.

Thermistor value is now 4470.1132 ohm It changes less than 50mmohm/hour now.

Once I purchase one more 732A, I will experiment how  close it come back to 
before turn-off value.

Again thank you all.

Best Regards,

Michael
___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-07 Thread J. L. Trantham
Michael,

Definitely need to keep it on, ship it hot, and have an external battery
pack attached.  IIRC, the internal batteries are good only for about 4
hours.  I have not tested that though.  I think I read this in the manual or
one of the list members mentioned it.  That's why the connector is on the
back, to allow attaching an external battery pack for longer duration away
from AC power.

I would love to get mine calibrated with Fluke but I think I want to wait a
few more months before undertaking this.  Any suggestions from the group on
how long to leave it on?  What 'drift' rate I would want before concluding
it is 'stable'?  I have a 3458A Opt 002 that I can use to track it with and
another 3458A that I can track the thermistor with.

Removing the battery pack is easy, just remove four screws and slide it out.
Certainly worth doing if you are going to keep it.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Michael Hong
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 10:22 PM
To: volt-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

Thank you all for your concerns.

I will reply out of order, sorry.

IN CAL right came on as I poked(turned) with a slim screw driver. Yes, I
know it supposed to be on after calibration.

AC PWR light turned and stayed on ever since I plugged in the main
yesterday.

When I pulled out the main plug as you said, voltages went down immediately.
Probably the battery is completely gone.

I have been asking quote on this standard from Fluke down to local no name
guy long before I buy it.
I have no intention of calibrating this by myself. That defeats the purpose
of the purchase.
Because it will be my primary standard.

I just wanted to turn slightly to both directions to see if the
potentiometer is working since the 732A's volts looked out of ranges. I
calibrated 8 720As with Nanovolt Null meter and Keithley 155 last week, so I
have no fun left to turning the small thing.

The battery is big concern to me. When I called Fluke, one of the rep said
it should be shipped to them hot Because 732A's battery life is very
limited, it should be shipped using Morning Service. I was going to call
FedEx if they have 12 hours service. And I belive most cal lab require the
732A to be delivered hot. The manual says so.

Thermistor value is now 4470.1132 ohm It changes less than 50mmohm/hour now.

Once I purchase one more 732A, I will experiment how  close it come back to
before turn-off value.

Again thank you all.

Best Regards,

Michael
___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


Re: [volt-nuts] A Fluke 732A: Return it or keep it?

2014-03-07 Thread Charles Steinmetz

Michael wrote:


I received a Fluke 732A yesterday which was purchased from an eBay seller.
 * * *
(1) Which one is wrong the DMM or 732A?


As others have said, you have no way to tell with what you have.  I 
note that the seller's 34401A read the 10v output as 10.0004v, pretty 
consistent with the 10.00036 your 3457A read.  So it seems likely 
that the 732A really is significantly farther off than the cal pot 
will correct, and the internal jumpers will need to be changed.



(2) What is the cheapest battery replacement cost?


Fluke built the 732A with four, 6v, 4.5AH SLA batteries.  For some 
years now, when Fluke replaces the batteries, they use two, 12v, 5AH 
SLA batteries for a modest increase in capacity.  I believe the best 
course is to follow Fluke's lead, and use two, 12v, 5AH batteries 
when I replace them.


Also, I strongly advise against using the cheapest batteries you can 
get.  Those will invariably be very low quality batteries, which will 
fail prematurely.   There is a huge difference in quality from good 
SLAs to poor ones.  I have found that PowerSonic SLA batteries give 
good service in the 732A (about $35 each).


[NOTE: Be very careful shopping for SLA batteries -- the retail SLA 
market is absolutely full of fraudulent marketing.  For example, 
http://www.batteryclerk.com/ does everything possible to make you 
think you are buying genuine brand-name batteries, but all they sell 
are AJC brand batteries, which are unmitigated crap.  In tiny print 
they say, This is an AJC Brand replacement compatible with and then 
in giant red letters, Panasonic (or other name brand) Sealed Lead 
Acid Battery.  Many, many vendors play this same game.  Be 
absolutely positive you're getting the real thing.]


In order for the 732A to do what it is supposed to do (be, without 
question, the most accurate voltage standard you own), you will need 
to send it to Fluke for calibration (or to one of the very, very few 
other labs with sufficient accuracy and precision to calibrate a 0.1 
ppm voltage standard).  You will pay from $700 to $1500 for 
this.  Every year.  So trying to save $50 on batteries is beyond foolish.


Last, I paid $650 plus $35 shipping. Do you think it is worth 
without battery, if voltages are in the range?


It is hard to say what a fair price is.  I have three, all of which 
came from working calibration labs (so I know they had been back to 
Fluke every year from new).  Mine have never needed anything other 
than batteries.  The most expensive of the bunch cost me $325.  But, 
as noted above, the cost of the hardware is not the real expense -- 
it's those trips back to Fluke for calibration.  (If you're not 
willing to send it to Fluke for calibration, you're just wasting 
money buying a 732A.  You should get one of these instead):


http://www.voltagestandard.com/New_Products.html

Best regards,

Charles



___
volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
and follow the instructions there.