Russian researchers build prototype of perpetual propulsion unit
Not sure if this is a hoax, but it appears to come from TASS rather than pravda.ru so it might be genuine. The name Menshikov appears on several web sites and scientific paper archives in connection with space propulsion research. Rob http://www.gateway2russia.com/st/art_257162.php 11 November 2004 15:00 Russian researchers build prototype of perpetual propulsion unit The Space Systems Scientific Research Institute outside Moscow is developing a perpetual engine for use in space and on Earth. Valeriy Menshikov, the director and chief scientist at the institute, told ITAR-TASS news agency today that the institute has been working on a so-called reactive mass emission-free engine for some years. He said scientists have already developed an original prototype engine. The prototype is propelled by the movement within it of a liquid or solid propellant on a fixed trajectory reminiscent of a tornado, Menshikov explained. Moreover, it is possible that we may observe in this motion some as-yet unknown interaction between the propellant and little-studied fields such as, for example, the gravitational field, he said. We have managed to record thrust of up to 28g with this prototype, but only for a few minutes so far, a department head at the institute, Yuriy Danshov, told the agency. Thrust of this magnitude may appear extremely small, but were it to be applied for 20 minutes to a 100-kg satellite, the satellite's orbit would increase by 2 km, the scientist said. The developers say this kind of propulsion unit would have a service life of at least 15 years, with a maximum of some 300,000 activations. It would be powered by solar batteries. Experts believe the device needs to be tested in space or dropped down a deep silo to replicate the effects of weightlessness to maintain the integrity of the experiment in measuring the thrust of the prototype. Formally, science draws parallels between this research and attempts to build a perpetual motion machine, but big firms in the West are working very seriously and investing heavily in this, Menshikov said. The Moscow researchers believe the engine would not just be for use in controlling and adjusting space craft orbits and orbital stations. This environmentally clean engine will have applications in air and land transport in future, too, Menshikov said. Source: ITAR-TASS news agency, Moscow -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html mail /\- against microsoft attachments This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person.
Re: Getting AntiGrav Off The Ground
I received this note from an unimpeachable source. Most flying saucers are ~10m in diameter Three "ampere-turns on a lifting solenoid" will still allow the 100 meter full-wave loop at 3.04 MHz. Giving about 85 pounds lift per ampere-meter. The only problem left is proper feeding, and keeping the FCC off your back.:-) Frederick
Latest from Szpak et al.
Paper: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf PowerPoint presentation: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursorsa.pdf - Jed
mineral oxidation reduction via vortex
Regarding the use of a vortex for reducing minerals in seawater.. the vortex created by the high speed rotating member on the mixer acts as an enhancement to a complex set of events that we have finally been able to replicate. We actually achieved a sustained oxidation reduction of minerals in water. The vortex produces the "oommph" . Inducting air at the periphery of the rotating ( 110 f/p/s velocity) member permits a velocity shear sufficent to partially oxidize the entrained minerals in the water. An active cavitation event is present at this time. The trick was to keep the cavitation bubble in suspension and away from the inner shroud wall or the wall dissappears rapidly The vortex swirl is sufficent to performthis balancing act. Based on the residual in the bottom of the test tank, we calculate we had a mineral reduction of 10-15%. Why such high hopes for achieving 40% or more ? Most seawater desal plants use a battery of filters upstream of the reverse osmosis battery of membranes. Some are experiencing clogged filters on 2 hour intervals so they add an expensive chemical for descaling.Any reduction of minerals prior to filtering is money in the bank. We have a long difficult path to traverse to reduce the electric power used but that again is mostly grunt work. Best guess why the vortex gives the "oommph" is it " triggers" the cavitation event. Addto that is theshape of the parabolic shroud and it becomes an " echo chamber" similar to a speaker. Please do not misunderstand.. we are NOT making a claim that the vortex has " magic" powers. Richard Blank Bkgrd.gif
RE: mineral oxidation reduction via vortex
Hi Richard. Sounds like a good start! I know a great deal of work along these lines has been done by other researchers using ultrasonic horns to generate the cavitation for wastewater treatment and general chemical processing. Consider this from a few seconds of googling. http://www.univ-savoie.fr/labos/lcme/organic.htm The novelty you are claiming is the use of the vortex to generate the and maintain the cavitating shroud? It will be interesting to see what your final efficiency is for the process, whether you can beat out an ultrasonic horn type system. Again, I hope we can rouse Knuke from his slumbers to comment upon this subject. I'll bet a few days spent on a literature search would save you months of head banging. K. -Original Message- From: RC Macaulay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 12:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: mineral oxidation reduction via vortex Regarding the use of a vortex for reducing minerals in seawater.. the vortex created by the high speed rotating member on the mixer acts as an enhancement to a complex set of events that we have finally been able to replicate. We actually achieved a sustained oxidation reduction of minerals in water. The vortex produces the oommph . Inducting air at the periphery of the rotating ( 110 f/p/s velocity) member permits a velocity shear sufficent to partially oxidize the entrained minerals in the water. An active cavitation event is present at this time. The trick was to keep the cavitation bubble in suspension and away from the inner shroud wall or the wall dissappears rapidly The vortex swirl is sufficent to perform this balancing act. Based on the residual in the bottom of the test tank, we calculate we had a mineral reduction of 10-15%. Why such high hopes for achieving 40% or more ? Most seawater desal plants use a battery of filters upstream of the reverse osmosis battery of membranes. Some are experiencing clogged filters on 2 hour intervals so they add an expensive chemical for descaling. Any reduction of minerals prior to filtering is money in the bank. We have a long difficult path to traverse to reduce the electric power used but that again is mostly grunt work. Best guess why the vortex gives the oommph is it triggers the cavitation event. Add to that is the shape of the parabolic shroud and it becomes an echo chamber similar to a speaker. Please do not misunderstand.. we are NOT making a claim that the vortex has magic powers. Richard
Demon aluminum
Ref the recent Paper: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf Fig. 6. Analysis of the boulder-like segment showed the presence of a single element, Aluminum... Why would aluminum be favored? And how could the nuclear events leading up to this substantial amount of aluminum happen and at the same time have been close to energy neutral. IOW the formative events must have been energy neutral or else one would have a deep cavity there rather than a mound... Here is an explanation, admittedly working backwards, so to speak. I find it attractive, far more so than the explanations forwarded by Szpak et al as will Fred Sparber because it implicates the hypothetical lepton triad, (*e-). Thinking out loud... When the most common Pd isotope -which is Pd106 - fuses with a deuteron, one would end up with a transitory nucleon mass of 108. Cd108 is technically stable, but any newly formed nucleon would be formed on the very edge of instability. How could Cd108 decay in an energy neutral way and at the same time allow four neutrons to convert to protons. so as to give us aluminum? Aluminum comes in only one size Al27. It is pretty obvious to anyone that 108 is a couple of octaves removed from 27, but the p/n balance of protons and neutrons indicates that such an end result would necessarily involve a number of high energy beta decays, which are not seen, which is not the same as saying that these beta decays have not taken place. Therefore, lets go back to the original poser. How could Cd108 decay in an energy neutral way, releasing four high energy betas ( 1 MeV each) and at the same time end up with four neutrons converted to protons. so as to give us four atoms of aluminum and very little net energy release? Easy !! ...says the village idiot - just allow the excess energy to be converted into mass via Dirac reciprocal space, sending to Dirac the 4 high energy betas in exchange for 4 positrons, which take up residence in the 4 newly created lepton triads, in effect creating electronium(*e-) where there was none before - and the beauty of this is that you have an almost perfect balance in net energy. ... and no need to summon up demonology Jones
Fwd: Got my Midi session 4 running and wrote some flying sauce music.
---BeginMessage--- http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/craft.html Frank Znidarsic ---End Message---
Re: Latest from Szpak et al.
Personally I do not believe all that is claimed, even in cold fusion :-). I have seen such boulders on metal samples that clearly result from the environment. The normal environment has all kinds of small particles floating in the air, which can land on a sample and be completely unnoticed until after the experiment. As you point out, it makes no sense for transmutation products to move from where they are produced to form a boulder. This defies the concept of entropy. Ed Jones Beene wrote: From: Jed Rothwell Paper: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSprecursors.pdf Which contains one of the most amazing understatements that you are likely to ever see in any new energy technology (at least it will be most amazing to the mainstream of nuclear physics). That statement is found on page 8, where NOT just traces of transmutation products were found, but instead, well... in the authors own words: Fig. 6. Analysis of the boulder-like segment showed the presence of a single element, Al, [!]... Imagine that... in a Pd cathode one finds a micro-sized boulder but not a mix of elements - a boulder of a single transmutation product, aluminum... furthermore- and that resembling a crater, the presence of two elements, namely Mg and Al. Without the aid of a Maxwell demon, it would be difficult to argue that such directed motion of impurities can take place. The only sensible answer is that they were produced in the course of electrolysis of D2O in a cell placed in an external electric field by nuclear events. Why would aluminum be favored? And how could the nuclear events leading up to this substantial amount of aluminum happen and at the same time have been close to energy neutral. IOW the formative events must have been energy neutral or else one would have a deep cavity there rather than a mound... Maxwell's demon goes mainstream ? Jones
Re: Demon aluminum
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:37:59 -0800: Hi, [snip] Easy !! ...says the village idiot - just allow the excess energy to be converted into mass via Dirac reciprocal space, sending to Dirac the 4 high energy betas in exchange for 4 positrons, which take up residence in the 4 newly created lepton triads, in effect creating electronium(*e-) where there was none before - and the beauty of this is that you have an almost perfect balance in net energy. ...but, but...Pd106 + D - 4*Al27 -7.8 MeV. This is just straight mass - mass, without regard to charge. Where does the missing 8 MeV come from? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk All SPAM goes in the trash unread.
Re: Latest from Szpak et al.
Edmund Storms writes, Personally I do not believe all that is claimed, even in cold fusion :-). Instead of even in cold fusion some observers might even be inclined to opine espeically... as that genius Bob Park does on a regular basis - but in this case, there is some reason for me to believe that Szpak et al. are indeed exactly on-target. I have seen such boulders on metal samples that clearly result from the environment. If what Szpak has located in this image were purely a one-of-a-kind, singularity type of thing, instead of something which was not uncommon in the work, then yes you could be right. But I do not think that they would have taken the time to present it this way, if they did not think that this feature was *normal* to their expeiment. One must assume that they took the necessary precautions to avoid contamination, since they do mention this factor as an alternative explanation... for the skeptics to fall back on (they are diplomatic, one should add)... The normal environment has all kinds of small particles floating in the air, which can land on a sample and be completely unnoticed until after the experiment. Perhaps this could explain a single instance, or it could explain abnormally sloppy work, which is hopefully NOT your implication, I am assuming. It all gets back to whether this phenomenon is a regular feature of their work or not. If they said that it is, then I would be inclined to suggest that a proper resolution of the anomaly would NOT relate to environmental contamination. As you point out, it makes no sense for transmutation products to move from where they are produced to form a boulder. This defies the concept of entropy. I hope that I wasn't misconstrued on this. My intent may have been just the opposite... What is wrong with defying the poorly understood concept of entropy anyway? Sure, this experiment defies entropy in several other ways - for one, in exactly the same way that LENR defies the concept of entropy. IOW it presents a such a clear violation, such as hot-nuclear energy itself once presented, that the violation in itself forces the pedagogues who believe in entropy to go back to the drawing board and redefine it... to save face, if nothing else. Entropy has been already revised more than once, for instance to NOT inlcude the hot version of nuclear energy - and now this work, and ZPE also becomes just a further invitation to revise the 'entropy concept' further to include a bulk transmutation BEC-like effect which can occur in energy-neutral fashion, and in a rather large particulates consisting of many atoms. If you have a BEC-like reaction, it will seldom involve on a few atoms. Not ot mention that any of regular BEC has entropy violating issues which have nto been adequately addressed. I think that you are failing to grasp the critical point that can possibly explain the Szpak results ... that when a BEC-like QM reaction occurs at all, it usually IS a bulk energy-near-neutral type of reaction, not confined to 'pair of particles' or even a few particles. When you have the QM wave functions involved, as with the putative bulk reaction [Pd106 + D -- Cd1098 --- four Al27 + four (*e-)] then this can occur in the normal Pd nanaoparticle as a unit, and if energy neutral, you do indeed end up with a boulder - entropy-be-damned. But of course, one must first buy-into the concept of a BEC-like reaction. Jones
Re: Demon aluminum
From: Robin van Spaandonk ...but, but...Pd106 + D - 4*Al27 -7.8 MeV. This is just straight mass - mass, without regard to charge. Where does the missing 8 MeV come from? Easy! ... at first glance, the court jester would say... Perhaps the missing ~8 MeV comes from interleaved matrices of the larger nanoparticle, where similar BEC-like reactions involving D+D -- He + 24 MeV but in a 1:3 ratio - will occur... which serve to fuel the endotherm of a bulk aluminum forming reaction ?or is that too contrived to be so elegant?... Actually I have different and less-elegant figures, but the underlying idea is the same. Jones fact is stranger than fiction... but perhaps concocted-fact purported to explain seeming fiction, which is in-fact real fact... is stranger than either
FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, October 29, 2004
[Original Message] From: What's New [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Akira Kawasaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 10/29/2004 12:03:36 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, October 29, 2004 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 29 Oct 04 Washington, DC 1. WARPED SCIENCE: BEAM ME UP SCOTTY, THEY'RE CRAZY DOWN HERE. Making the rounds in Washington this week is a 75-page Air Force Research Laboratory report, Teleportation Physics Study (my spell checker balks on teleportation, and well it should). This is not the IBM entangled photon stuff; this is transporting people across space. The subway does that, but it's not included in the report. Instead it describes conveyance of persons by psychic means, and transport through extra space dimensions or parallel universes. The contractor for the study was Warp Drive Metrics in Las Vegas, and the author was Eric W. Davis, PhD, FBIS. We couldn't find Dr. Davis in American Men and Women of Science, so we googled him and Warp Drive Metrics. Warp Drive Metrics has no website. We did find an article by Dr. Davis, Wormhole Induction Propulsion, prepared for the 1997 NASA Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Workshop, which NASA had refused to allow me to attend http://www.aps.org/WN/WN97/wn081597.cfm . His affiliation then was the National Institute for Discovery Science, Las Vegas. The NIDS website displays an Oct 15, 04 notice from its president that the Institute is on an inactive status. Desperate for information, we contacted the Project Manager of the study, Dr. Franklin Mead, Senior Scientist of the Advanced Concepts Office. He's not listed in American Men and Women of Science either, but he has a 1996 Patent (5,590,031) for a system to convert zero point energy to electrical energy. Apparently it's not available yet. He could not give me the exact cost of the teleportation report, but said the subcontractor, ERC Inc., would know. We called ERC, but teleportation is just one small part of a huge contract. Two weeks ago we learned of the Air Force positron bomb (WN 15 Oct 04). How many fantasy weapons are taxpayers buying? 2. SUPERCOLLIDERS: ARE PARTICLE ACCELERATORS A THREAT TO LIFE? The Raelians have been pretty quiet since they announced that baby Eve had been cloned http://www.aps.org/WN/WN02/wn122702.cfm That was two years ago. Now the Raelian Scientists Association is urging that supercolliders be turned off to protect life at every level of existence in the universe. The Raelians believe all life on Earth is the result of intelligent design, and so do a lot of fundamentalist Christians, but that's where similarities end. Raelians think our creators were scientific space aliens. (Have you ever noticed how silly everyone else's religion is?) Raelians also believe the universe is fractal, with an infinite number of fractal levels of life. Thus, supercolliders might be destroying life in infinitely small worlds. WN does not believe there is much supporting evidence, but we'll watch where we step. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, November 05, 2004
[Original Message] From: What's New [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Akira Kawasaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 11/5/2004 12:03:57 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, November 05, 2004 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 5 Nov 04 Washington, DC 1. THE VOTE IS IN: IT'S NOW TIME TO UNITE BEHIND THE WINNER. The winner of the Excalibur Prize, was the Black Hole Weapon or BHW, nominated by George Wallerstein. Too dangerous to use on Earth, it's designed for use against any alien planet suspected of harboring weapons of mass destruction. If we're wrong, who's to complain? George will now receive WN without charge for an entire year. The Excalibur Prize http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn101504.cfm was inspired by bold outside-the-box pioneers at the Pentagon, NASA and CIA, who gave us the Excalibur X-ray laser, the Podkletnov gravity shield, and remote-viewing. Other brilliant ideas in past years included the neutrino bomb, which had an acoustic device to let victims know they'd been zapped by trillions of neutrinos. Our panel of experts faced an ethical crisis when former WN intern Paul Gresser, who is not exactly svelte, nominated the Atkins bomb. When detonated, the A-bomb coats the target area with bacon grease, reducing everyone to skin-and-bones with high blood pressure. The countermeasure is carbs, applied with a device called a carburetor. Would picking Paul's idea be viewed as conflict-of-interest? One panelist, General Persiflage, scoffed: At the Pentagon we always award contracts to friends; you gonna do favors for your enemies? Another idea was nano voodoo dolls; trillions of them on a single chip. Jim Dukarm explained, It amplifies Murphy's law based on quantum theory or something. In tests it dropped a tree on a troublemaker with at least partial effectiveness. 2. IRAN: THE NUCLEAR CHALLENGE THAT THE CAMPAIGN MOSTLY IGNORED. The world is too divided to agree on sanctions, the U.S. is too bogged down in Iraq to threaten punitive action, and Iran sees an opportunity to wring concessions from a divided world. Diplomats from Iran and the European Union are meeting in Paris today, but there seems to be little prospect of agreement. Iran, floating on an ocean of oil, insists it will never abandon its sovereign right to produce peaceful nuclear power. Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said today that, Our nuclear weapon is our devoted youth and our believing nation. The election showed we're also a believing nation. It's our young fundamentalist believers against their young fundamentalist believers. 3. DIETARY SUPPLEMENTS: FDA VOWS TO CRACK DOWN ON MISLABELING. Don't count on it. Passage of the 1994 Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act largely freed the industry from government oversight. A couple of celebrity deaths has turned up the heat on the FDA http://www.aps.org/WN/WN04/wn040904.cfm , but this is a powerful industry, and it will change when the law changes. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
FW: WHAT'S NEW Friday, November 12, 2004
[Original Message] From: What's New [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Akira Kawasaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 11/12/2004 1:15:11 PM Subject: WHAT'S NEW Friday, November 12, 2004 WHAT'S NEW Robert L. Park Friday, 12 Nov 04 Washington, DC 1. SHELL GAME: INDUSTRY PLAYS ITS PART IN THE HYDROGEN CIRCUS. They installed the nation's first public hydrogen pump in the Shell station at 525 Benning Road in Washington, DC, just 5.2 miles from the U.S. Capitol Building. We thought you'd like to know just in case you're in town driving your hydrogen powered car. Oh! I forgot -- you can't buy one, can you? GM has six hydrogen prototype minivans in Washington, parked by the Capital for what a GM executive calls educational outreach. Parked, because a round trip to the Shell station will use a third of a tank of hydrogen. No matter, GM isn't trying to sell hydrogen cars. Here's a WN educational outreach: the Bush administration points to the hydrogen car to show that while other countries sign treaties, we do something about the environment. Here's more education: even if they solve all the problems with the hydrogen car, it won't do squat for the environment. Pollution comes from making the hydrogen. GM will turn out a handful of hydrogen concept-cars with government subsidies while selling thousands of profitable SUVs, and Shell's gasoline sales will climb filling up those SUVs, at the cost of putting up with a few little- used hydrogen pumps, paid for with government subsidies. 2. FOSSILIZED: ASSESSING ENERGY TRENDS FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE There was an Exxon Mobil ad on the op-ed page of the Washington Post yesterday titled Energy through 2030. It was an ad by a fossil-fuel company, not a research paper, but it was sobering: Fossil fuels meet more than 80% of world energy needs, it concluded, and we expect this trend to continue through 2030. There was no mention of a hydrogen initiative. 3. MORAL VALUES: DARWINISM CONTINUES TO STIR UP THE FAITHFUL. In Cobb County Georgia, a sticker on science textbooks warns that evolution is a theory, not a fact. It's being challenged in court. The Grantsburg School District in Wisconsin wants Various theories of origins (read intelligent design) taught. The move is overwhelmingly opposed by higher education groups in the state. In Charles County, Maryland, several school board members want creationism on the curriculum and American History to stress our roots as a Christian nation. They are also considering inviting Gideons to provide each students with a bible. The Washington Post says one board member is a member of Gideons. Another hosts a conservative religious radio talk show. The Raelians http://www.aps.org/WN/WN02/wn122702.cfm note that, The Theory of Intelligent Design does not lead to a supernatural designer but to an extraterrestrial human- civilization designer. THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND. Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the University of Maryland, but they should be. --- Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ICCF11 Results
Hey Vorts... I met Naudin and interviewed him a bit but he declined to go on record. I know who is paying his salary though I can't disclose it. It is a major agency in France. He was quite nervous about me talking with him and I found that interesting. I am undecided as to whether he is a benefit or a detriment to CF. He clearly has a very sexed-up website and makes it easy for amateurs to get their hands on CF and give it a shot. Is this a good thing? I don't know. Does he give sufficient and respectful credit to Mizuno? I have not spent the time to analyze his site to determine this. My bets are the following: 1. That Naudin attracted his sugar daddy by the strong efforts he has made over the years to create his excellent web presence. 2. The people who pay his salary, who were at ICCF-11 will soon figure out who the real players, the original scientists in this game are. Now that Naudin has made it to the big time (as far as sponsorship), I'll be quite curious if the CF dev and dissemination continues on his website. He didn't forbid me to take his picture - so I'll have a nice mugshot of him in an upcoming newsletter. That's about all I know about JLN. Like Jed, I am working to dig out from data and will have stuff going up on www.newenergytimes.com shortly. At 08:42 AM 11/8/2004 -0800, you wrote: From: Terry Blanton (in reference of the elebaorate Mizuno presentation, which immediate appeared in great detail on Naudin's web-site) A *net* reduction in entropy? Is nothing sacred? Not to Naudin, that is for sure. I am curious whether Jed or any of the other vortex attendees had occassion to meet Naudin? He certainly has his ear to the ground like no other free-energy researcher on the planet, and despite allegations of being more copy-cat that creative genius (probably he is a good helping of both), he must be well-funded... which in France, often means that the *bureaucracy* is somehow involved... after all, they not only invented the term and perfected the institution to its ultimate stage of usefulness (or maximum emmerdement, shall we say)... in effect the bureaucracy is the French national condescension to Communist ideals, which surely would have taken root without it as an weighty counterbalance - IOW a patronizing gesture has now become a dominant way of life... and not a bad one... nor an efficient one either. Of course, Naudin like the more infamous and infinitely more boring Professor Nicholas Bourbaki, could end up being not a single person at all, but a dedicated group of experimenters(doubtful), but ... as they say in Private Eye, I think we should be told *-) Jones
