Re: [Vo]:[OT] DOM Vote
on 31/8/08 1:57 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As for the evolution matter, what we intelligent design advocates ask to the opportunity to present our case to students. To wit, the living cell is a production facility. The definition of a P F, is that it takes that with you have, and changes it into that which you need or desire. In addition, it is self correcting. IMHO, both of these functions defy entropy. The appeals court decision in this matter needs legislative correction. If a cell defies entropy then the analogy of the cell as a production facility, although useful, is inaccurate. Harry
Re: [Vo]:[OT] DOM Vote
Of course a cell does not defy entropy. It takes in a certain amount of energy, uses that to reduce the entropy of the materials it takes in to make what it desires. The amount of increase of entropy (disorder) caused by the use of the energy is larger than the amount of decrease in entropy (increased order) of the products of the cells production. It's like running up a downwards moving escalator - you get higher by expending a lot more energy (increasing entropy) than you could recover by going down again once you reached the top. Nick Palmer
Re: [Vo]:[OT] DOM Vote
Unfortunately, the personal qualities of the candidates or their religious views are not important to our basic living standards. Bush was chosen on the basis of such criteria and look what happened. If the people who vote on the basis of religious values do not start looking at the deeper issues, this country will continue to go down hill. The bad things that are happening now are not accidental and the “liberals” and the democrats have not caused them. They are caused by the basic philosophy of the present leaders. This attitude needs to be changed. McCain and Palin, although nice and sincere people, share these attitudes toward government. The attitude that has caused the trouble is the belief that the free enterprise system, if allowed to work without oversight, will produce the best result. The fact is that certain people in free enterprise system will try to take every advantage they can get at the expense of other people unless the system is regulated by rules that prevent such action. The most recent example is how the mortgage industry was corrupted by greed and self- interest. The Bush administration encouraged this action because everyone was appearing to get rich. It was obvious to any rational person that this could not continue, which was correct. Unfortunately, this was only one of many big and small disasters caused by their hands-off approach. This approach has failed. The ordinary citizen is loosing while the few are getting very rich. This is not what the founding fathers wanted. Obama may be inexperienced, but he sees the problem and has proposed solutions. This is more than be said for McCain et al. Ed On Aug 30, 2008, at 11:57 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Aug 29, 2008, at 3:47 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:57:30 -0600: Hi, [snip] I wonder how many people turned McCain down before Gov. Palin's name came up? The ship is sinking with all aboard. It was a horse race before. I saw my friend switch from being decided for Obama, to giving McCain a second look when I told her about Governor Pailin. Ed Actually I thought it was a very shrewd choice. By choosing a woman he improves his chances of capturing the disaffected Hillary supporters. According to the pole results I heard, 20 - 30% of the Hillary voters were leaning to supporting McCain. Frankly, I have a higher opinion of the female voter. Only the most Bill. What does Palin have other than the right sex? Governor Pailin is the sort of leader that the Founding Father's had in mind. A person has a life (a business or profession) which they leave temporarily to lead the government. She has solid prolife credentials, and a demonstrated passion to root out governmental corruption and waste. President Bush has presided over a kleptoracy worthy of a third world dictatorship. Between John McCain's fiscal conservatism, and Sarah Pailin, this situation can be ameliorated. As for the evolution matter, what we intelligent design advocates ask to the opportunity to present our case to students. To wit, the living cell is a production facility. The definition of a P F, is that it takes that with you have, and changes it into that which you need or desire. In addition, it is self correcting. IMHO, both of these functions defy entropy. The appeals court decision in this matter needs legislative correction. Then there is the Fairness Doctrine, this Orwellian piece of legislation would destroy one of our rallying centers, talk radio. The radical left has taken control of the Democratic Party, IMHO, what you are witnessing is a repeat of 1972. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:[OT] DOM Vote
on 31/8/08 9:17 am, Nick Palmer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Of course a cell does not defy entropy. It takes in a certain amount of energy, uses that to reduce the entropy of the materials it takes in to make what it desires. The amount of increase of entropy (disorder) caused by the use of the energy is larger than the amount of decrease in entropy (increased order) of the products of the cells production. It's like running up a downwards moving escalator - you get higher by expending a lot more energy (increasing entropy) than you could recover by going down again once you reached the top. Nick Palmer Built into your analysis is the assumption that the _cell_ is somehow interested in recovering the old-energy because going up down escalators is the long term mission of a cell. A cell does defy entropy in the sense that it invests some energy in searching for new-energy inaddition to producing the things its needs. Harry
Re: [Vo]:[OT] DOM Vote
Air travel safety is achieved by the analysis of crashes, which illustrate unintended design and operation defects. Economic policy matures by similar means. Aircraft designed for total safety will not fly. Commerce free of risk and greed will not function. The finger of greed points in every direction. From primitive barter to electronic commerce we must always seek a balance, making on-course corrections. Neither Democrats nor Republicans are immune. Both have lavish parties at their conventions, adroitly conforming to reforms passed by Congress. Mike Carrell - Original Message - From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 10:33 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] DOM Vote Unfortunately, the personal qualities of the candidates or their religious views are not important to our basic living standards. Bush was chosen on the basis of such criteria and look what happened. If the people who vote on the basis of religious values do not start looking at the deeper issues, this country will continue to go down hill. The bad things that are happening now are not accidental and the “liberals” and the democrats have not caused them. They are caused by the basic philosophy of the present leaders. This attitude needs to be changed. McCain and Palin, although nice and sincere people, share these attitudes toward government. The attitude that has caused the trouble is the belief that the free enterprise system, if allowed to work without oversight, will produce the best result. The fact is that certain people in free enterprise system will try to take every advantage they can get at the expense of other people unless the system is regulated by rules that prevent such action. The most recent example is how the mortgage industry was corrupted by greed and self- interest. The Bush administration encouraged this action because everyone was appearing to get rich. It was obvious to any rational person that this could not continue, which was correct. Unfortunately, this was only one of many big and small disasters caused by their hands-off approach. This approach has failed. The ordinary citizen is loosing while the few are getting very rich. This is not what the founding fathers wanted. Obama may be inexperienced, but he sees the problem and has proposed solutions. This is more than be said for McCain et al. Ed On Aug 30, 2008, at 11:57 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Aug 29, 2008, at 3:47 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 29 Aug 2008 :57:30 -0600: Hi, [snip] I wonder how many people turned McCain down before Gov. Palin's name came up? The ship is sinking with all aboard. It was a horse race before. I saw my friend switch from being decided for Obama, to giving McCain a second look when I told her about Governor Pailin. Ed Actually I thought it was a very shrewd choice. By choosing a woman he improves his chances of capturing the disaffected Hillary supporters. According to the pole results I heard, 20 - 30% of the Hillary voters were leaning to supporting McCain. Frankly, I have a higher opinion of the female voter. Only the most Bill. What does Palin have other than the right sex? Governor Pailin is the sort of leader that the Founding Father's had in mind. A person has a life (a business or profession) which they leave temporarily to lead the government. She has solid prolife credentials, and a demonstrated passion to root out governmental corruption and waste. President Bush has presided over a kleptoracy worthy of a third world dictatorship. Between John McCain's fiscal conservatism, and Sarah Pailin, this situation can be ameliorated. As for the evolution matter, what we intelligent design advocates ask to the opportunity to present our case to students. To wit, the living cell is a production facility. The definition of a P F, is that it takes that with you have, and changes it into that which you need or desire. In addition, it is self correcting. IMHO, both of these functions defy entropy. The appeals court decision in this matter needs legislative correction. Then there is the Fairness Doctrine, this Orwellian piece of legislation would destroy one of our rallying centers, talk radio. The radical left has taken control of the Democratic Party, IMHO, what you are witnessing is a repeat of 1972. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html --- This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. Department.
Re: [Vo]:[OT] DOM Vote
Hi Mike, Th problem is that the lessons are learned over and over again. We have already experienced what happens when regulation is not in place, yet the Bush administration, in their profound ignorance and greed, ignored the lessons. Of course a balance is needed. What we don't need is people who ignore history and remove regulation that worked. It is hard to tell whether this was done by Bush and his people because of ignorance or because they discovered they could get rich this way at the expense of everyone else. Now the issue is whether the American people can see through the sham to elect someone who intends to change the system. I fear the person who will support McCain and feel they made the right moral choice all the way to the poor house, or the person who believes the government should have little power while we all are ripped off by the growing power structure. Ed On Aug 31, 2008, at 2:11 PM, Mike Carrell wrote: Air travel safety is achieved by the analysis of crashes, which illustrate unintended design and operation defects. Economic policy matures by similar means. Aircraft designed for total safety will not fly. Commerce free of risk and greed will not function. The finger of greed points in every direction. From primitive barter to electronic commerce we must always seek a balance, making on-course corrections. Neither Democrats nor Republicans are immune. Both have lavish parties at their conventions, adroitly conforming to reforms passed by Congress. Mike Carrell - Original Message - From: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 10:33 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] DOM Vote Unfortunately, the personal qualities of the candidates or their religious views are not important to our basic living standards. Bush was chosen on the basis of such criteria and look what happened. If the people who vote on the basis of religious values do not start looking at the deeper issues, this country will continue to go down hill. The bad things that are happening now are not accidental and the “liberals” and the democrats have not caused them. They are caused by the basic philosophy of the present leaders. This attitude needs to be changed. McCain and Palin, although nice and sincere people, share these attitudes toward government. The attitude that has caused the trouble is the belief that the free enterprise system, if allowed to work without oversight, will produce the best result. The fact is that certain people in free enterprise system will try to take every advantage they can get at the expense of other people unless the system is regulated by rules that prevent such action. The most recent example is how the mortgage industry was corrupted by greed and self- interest. The Bush administration encouraged this action because everyone was appearing to get rich. It was obvious to any rational person that this could not continue, which was correct. Unfortunately, this was only one of many big and small disasters caused by their hands-off approach. This approach has failed. The ordinary citizen is loosing while the few are getting very rich. This is not what the founding fathers wanted. Obama may be inexperienced, but he sees the problem and has proposed solutions. This is more than be said for McCain et al. Ed On Aug 30, 2008, at 11:57 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Edmund Storms [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Aug 29, 2008, at 3:47 PM, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: In reply to Edmund Storms's message of Fri, 29 Aug 2008 :57:30 -0600: Hi, [snip] I wonder how many people turned McCain down before Gov. Palin's name came up? The ship is sinking with all aboard. It was a horse race before. I saw my friend switch from being decided for Obama, to giving McCain a second look when I told her about Governor Pailin. Ed Actually I thought it was a very shrewd choice. By choosing a woman he improves his chances of capturing the disaffected Hillary supporters. According to the pole results I heard, 20 - 30% of the Hillary voters were leaning to supporting McCain. Frankly, I have a higher opinion of the female voter. Only the most Bill. What does Palin have other than the right sex? Governor Pailin is the sort of leader that the Founding Father's had in mind. A person has a life (a business or profession) which they leave temporarily to lead the government. She has solid prolife credentials, and a demonstrated passion to root out governmental corruption and waste. President Bush has presided over a kleptoracy worthy of a third world dictatorship. Between John McCain's fiscal conservatism, and Sarah Pailin, this situation can be ameliorated. As for the evolution matter, what we intelligent design advocates ask to the opportunity to present our case to students. To wit, the living cell is a production facility. The
[Vo]:Amazing changes on Phoenix stage
Compare: Sol 68, time 10:40:06, position 23077, FOCUS 49111, illumination blue: http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=17626cID=198 to the micrograph: Sol 93, time 17:21:00, position 23104, focus 49111, illumination blue: http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=25876cID=259 The stage location is significantly shifted so it takes some sliding of the registration before toggling between photos. Things have changed so much it is difficult to pick out landmarks to do the registration. I picked the dark spot adjacent to a large white spot and a small white spot, located half way down and a bit to the right of center. A photo of it is attached. inline: landmark.png I found it useful, once proper registration of the two windows was achieved, to position the cursor near something of interest so as to be sure of the location after toggling. Over the 25 days some things have remained an place but tendrils attached have moved. Some things have moved slightly and changed shape. Some things have changed color. Some things have not changed position or appearance. Some things have disappeared, and some new things have arrived. Some white things have grown larger. Taken all together this looks like a pretty good indication of life. Where oh where are the atomic force microscope images! The original mission duration is over and yet no meaningful AFM photos?? Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Amazing changes on Phoenix stage
This reminds me of how GA red clay, when saturated with water, would have ice columns grow during the freezing night and lift a layer of clay. The little white column growing on the right looks just like one of those ice columns. Terry On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 6:18 PM, Horace Heffner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Compare: Sol 68, time 10:40:06, position 23077, FOCUS 49111, illumination blue: http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=17626cID=198 to the micrograph: Sol 93, time 17:21:00, position 23104, focus 49111, illumination blue: http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=25876cID=259 The stage location is significantly shifted so it takes some sliding of the registration before toggling between photos. Things have changed so much it is difficult to pick out landmarks to do the registration. I picked the dark spot adjacent to a large white spot and a small white spot, located half way down and a bit to the right of center. A photo of it is attached. I found it useful, once proper registration of the two windows was achieved, to position the cursor near something of interest so as to be sure of the location after toggling. Over the 25 days some things have remained an place but tendrils attached have moved. Some things have moved slightly and changed shape. Some things have changed color. Some things have not changed position or appearance. Some things have disappeared, and some new things have arrived. Some white things have grown larger. Taken all together this looks like a pretty good indication of life. Where oh where are the atomic force microscope images! The original mission duration is over and yet no meaningful AFM photos?? Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:[OT] DOM Vote
Built into your analysis is the assumption that the _cell_ is somehow interested in recovering the old-energy because going up down escalators is the long term mission of a cell. A cell does defy entropy in the sense that it invests some energy in searching for new-energy inaddition to producing the things its needs. Harry Nah, not really. The processes of the cell decreases it's own entropy (increases it's order) but at the expense of creating extra disorder (increasing entropy) in the whole area around its operations. Let's just say that after the cell has done its thing, its personal entropy/disorder has decreased by say 2 units.The entropy/disorder of the surrounding area has increased by, say 10 units. Had the cell not been there, the entropy/disorder of the area would not have increased as much. The net result of life is that the Universe will end up in heat death earlier...
Re: [Vo]:[OT] DOM Vote
Quoting Nick Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Of course a cell does not defy entropy. It takes in a certain amount of energy, uses that to reduce the entropy of the materials it takes in to make what it desires. The amount of increase of entropy (disorder) caused by the use of the energy is larger than the amount of decrease in entropy (increased order) What I meant by defying entropy was the increasing complexity of the chemicals in it, that those complex chemicals produce the desired cellular operations, and that the entire mechanism can fix and replicate itself. Anyone who has build a production facility realizes that the desired results don't just happen. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:[OT] DOM Vote
Keen observation , Thomas were we discussing the political parties or science? The boys at the Dime Box Saloon have keenly observed that both the GOP and Dems have fond intentions but the desired results just ain't gonna happen. Why? because wez broke! Richard Thomas wrote, Anyone who has build a production facility realizes that the desired results don't just happen.
Re: [Vo]:[OT] DOM Vote
on 31/8/08 8:10 pm, Nick Palmer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Built into your analysis is the assumption that the _cell_ is somehow interested in recovering the old-energy because going up down escalators is the long term mission of a cell. A cell does defy entropy in the sense that it invests some energy in searching for new-energy inaddition to producing the things its needs. Harry Nah, not really. The processes of the cell decreases it's own entropy (increases it's order) but at the expense of creating extra disorder (increasing entropy) in the whole area around its operations. Let's just say that after the cell has done its thing, its personal entropy/disorder has decreased by say 2 units.The entropy/disorder of the surrounding area has increased by, say 10 units. Had the cell not been there, the entropy/disorder of the area would not have increased as much. You cannot be certain of that unless you were somehow controlling the environment to eliminate the possibility of surprises. The net result of life is that the Universe will end up in heat death earlier... This assumes the universe is a finite system which you could view from the outside like God. The early formulators of thermodynamics were trying to understand the dynamics of machines powered by heat. They did not imagine applying the concept of entropy to life, the universe and everything. Applying the concept of entropy to life is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. If you are prepared to take every theoretical implication of thermodynamics as True they will fit, but the result is not pretty. Harry
