RE: [Vo]:quantum thermodynamics and the Second Law--

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

Dave and Bob--

In common nuclear magnetic resonance machines the angular momentum of nuclei 
are  changed by a resonant radio frequency energy source in a strong ambient 
magnetic field.  That field aligns  the  nuclear magnetic dipoles and creates 
new  discrete potential energy levels for the nuclei.When excited to a new 
level by the radio frequency input, the nuclei are said to be in an elevated 
isomeric energy state.  When the ambient magnetic field is shut off, the nuclei 
relax giving off EM energy.  This energy from the relaxing nuclei is monitored 
to determine the location and concentration of nuclei which return to a ground 
state.

I believe the energy associated with the various nuclear spin states is 
considered nuclear binding potential energy, but not associated with mass 
energy binding protons and neutrons within a nucleus.  However, this potential 
energy  of an isomer DOES add mass to nuclei.

Thus, I would guess that transitions of nuclear species during LENR from one 
ground state to another ground state (with  a different combination of neutrons 
and protons and lower net angular momentum) would involve coupling via a 
magnetic field to the orbital electrons of a metal lattice.  You can call that 
energy mass energy,  binding energy or whatever.  It is a parameter of the 
nucleus in question in units of joules.  Energy is energy no matter what force  
field is involved IMHO.

Dave,

( I  believe linear momentum can be co-linear (not necessarily orthogonal) with 
angular momentum for properties ascribed to a particle or system of particles.  
  Even thought they have the same units mass-length/time, one must change in 
units of h/2pie and the other is associated with free particles in space and 
subject to uncertainty in its actual value reflecting Planck’s constant, h.

  ( I am not sure I understand your comment regarding classical physics.)

Bob Cook



From: David Roberson
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2017 11:29 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:quantum thermodynamics and the Second Law--

Of course, in classical physics linear momentum and angular momentum are 
orthogonal to each other and can not be exchanged within a closed system.

Dave



-Original Message-
From: Bob Higgins 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Sat, May 20, 2017 11:16 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:quantum thermodynamics and the Second Law--
This is interesting thinking.  The idea that angular momentum, linear momentum, 
and energy are "conserved" is a hypothesis created and supported (as I 
understand it) by observation, not by derivation based upon a fundamental 
principle.  While it would be a violation of the hypothesis, trading between 
these conserved quantities would not invalidate a fundamental premise (am I 
correct?).
So, Bob, when you say, "Trading nuclear potential energy for metal lattice 
electron orbital (thermal) angular momentum is LENR", what is the nuclear 
potential energy that you are saying is being traded (exchanged) into the 
electron orbital angular momentum?  What in the nucleus do you envision being 
traded?
Clearly the nucleus is not as well understood as we imagine.  If you read 
Norman Cook's book, "Models of the Atomic Nucleus", you will see the sorry 
state of things.  Present models for the nucleus predict fission as occurring 
in equal portions, but experiment shows that is far from the case.  Even though 
we rely heavily on engineering of nuclear fission, the models don't predict the 
characteristics of the reaction.  Could the "smallness" of the constituents in 
the nucleus allow interaction with a zero-point field, where at such small 
scales physics is different than we know?  Could the trading of "conserved" 
quantities be commonplace at such small scales?

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:30 AM, 
bobcook39...@hotmail.com 
> wrote:
The following link contains interesting views on the subject of this thread.

IMHO these are key LENR concepts.   Trading nuclear potential energy for metal 
lattice electron orbital (thermal) angular momentum is LENR.

http://www.quantamagazine.org/the-quantum-thermodynamics-revolution-20170502/

The following is excerpted from the article on thermodynamics:

“Imagine a vast container, or reservoir, of particles that possess both
energy and angular momentum (they’re both moving around and spinning).
This reservoir is connected to both a weight, which takes energy to
lift, and a turning turntable, which takes angular momentum to speed up
or slow down. Normally, a single reservoir can’t do any work — this goes
back to Carnot’s discovery about the need for hot and cold reservoirs.
But the researchers found that a reservoir containing multiple conserved
quantities follows different rules. “If you have two different physical
quantities that are conserved, like energy 

[Vo]:Activated nanoparticles and LENR

[Axil Axil]

It might be that the LENR reaction wants to run hot at just below 3000C.
This could be why Rossi has had problems with burnouts over the years when
the balance between cooling applied to the LENR reactor's structure and
LENR heat production is lost. It may be that a LENR reactor that loses
cooling of its structure will fail when the temperature of the plasma
produced by LENR begins to rise to its stability point at 2700C.


Rossi's solution to the reactor meltdown problem as deminstated by the
QuarkX is to ensure that his reactor can survive the highest temperature
that the LENR reactor can produce.


This could mean that any LENR reactor that depends on external cooling to
keep its operating temperature under the LENR reaction stability
temperature is subject to meltdown if the external cooling is lost.


Rossi's sigma 5 testing could be a method to check high temperature
endurance in the Quark structural material.


One thought that I have in the back of my mind is that the SunCell reaction
can sustain a self-sustaining plasma for minutes on end without any
external stimulation of energy input. This indicates that a plasma can
reach a state of equilibrium where it can maintain its own temperature that
does not increase beyond a certain stability point.


Similarities between systems sometimes lends insights into their underlying
mechanisms.


Could the QuarkX be a tiny version of the SunCell? If so, this insight
could imply some important reactor design principles.


For example, it is interesting that the boiling point of nickel and the
2700C operating temperature of the QuarkX are the same.


It might be that the stability temperature of the plasma based LENR reactor
can be set through the use of the metal used in its electrodes. For
example, a QuarkX using silver electrodes might have a stable plasma
temperature at 2200C which happens to be the boiling point of silver. An
alumina tube in a QuarkX configuration just might be able to handle that
operating temperature.


There could be a relationship between the boiling point of conductive metal
used in the reaction and melting point of the insulating structural
material used to confine that metal plasma.


Brian Ahern has given us critical insight into the underpinnings of LENR
when he postulates that nanoparticles are central to the LENR reaction. But
there particles must be energized when they are newly formed during
condensation out of vapor.


use the link below to find the boiling point of elements


http://periodictable.com/Properties/A/BoilingPoint.st.log.html

A lead electrode might be in the operating range of alumina at lead's
boiling point of 1800C.


Just to give himself some operational safety factor, Rossi may be using
Boron Nitride (melting point -> 2,973 °C) for the structural tube for his
QuarkX reactor.


The SunCell is sure to melt down when tungsten is used as its electrode
metal with a boiling point of C. Using silver makes for a colder
reaction. If you use tungsten in your reactor you are asking for a meltdown.


A zirconia tube (2,715 °C) might be able to handle a nickel electrode. A
zirconia tube will handle a silver electrode boiling temperature for sure.


An aluminum electrode (2519C ) used with a zirconia tube looks like a good
match with some meltdown safety factor tossed in. This apparent materials
michmatch Rossi may have had some meltdown issues when he started out using
an alumina tube in his hot cat.


If you want to use lithium aluminum hydride to supply your hydrogen, it
might be wise to use a zirconia tube.


If you use titanium(3287C) hydride for your hydrogen, you are askings for a
meltdown.

Re: [Vo]:quantum thermodynamics and the origin of the neutrino-

[Brian Ahern]

An energetic universe has no need for the neutrino. Fermi hypothesized it as an 
object to preserve angular momentum in interacting nuclear particle and 
radiations.


A Dirac universe can access angular momenta from the Dirac Sea.


This is not a closed system.



From: David Roberson 
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2017 2:29 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:quantum thermodynamics and the Second Law--

Of course, in classical physics linear momentum and angular momentum are 
orthogonal to each other and can not be exchanged within a closed system.

Dave



-Original Message-
From: Bob Higgins 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Sat, May 20, 2017 11:16 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:quantum thermodynamics and the Second Law--

This is interesting thinking.  The idea that angular momentum, linear momentum, 
and energy are "conserved" is a hypothesis created and supported (as I 
understand it) by observation, not by derivation based upon a fundamental 
principle.  While it would be a violation of the hypothesis, trading between 
these conserved quantities would not invalidate a fundamental premise (am I 
correct?).

So, Bob, when you say, "Trading nuclear potential energy for metal lattice 
electron orbital (thermal) angular momentum is LENR", what is the nuclear 
potential energy that you are saying is being traded (exchanged) into the 
electron orbital angular momentum?  What in the nucleus do you envision being 
traded?

Clearly the nucleus is not as well understood as we imagine.  If you read 
Norman Cook's book, "Models of the Atomic Nucleus", you will see the sorry 
state of things.  Present models for the nucleus predict fission as occurring 
in equal portions, but experiment shows that is far from the case.  Even though 
we rely heavily on engineering of nuclear fission, the models don't predict the 
characteristics of the reaction.  Could the "smallness" of the constituents in 
the nucleus allow interaction with a zero-point field, where at such small 
scales physics is different than we know?  Could the trading of "conserved" 
quantities be commonplace at such small scales?

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:30 AM, 
bobcook39...@hotmail.com 
> wrote:
The following link contains interesting views on the subject of this thread.

IMHO these are key LENR concepts.   Trading nuclear potential energy for metal 
lattice electron orbital (thermal) angular momentum is LENR.

http://www.quantamagazine.org/the-quantum-thermodynamics-revolution-20170502/

The following is excerpted from the article on thermodynamics:

“Imagine a vast container, or reservoir, of particles that possess both
energy and angular momentum (they’re both moving around and spinning).
This reservoir is connected to both a weight, which takes energy to
lift, and a turning turntable, which takes angular momentum to speed up
or slow down. Normally, a single reservoir can’t do any work — this goes
back to Carnot’s discovery about the need for hot and cold reservoirs.
But the researchers found that a reservoir containing multiple conserved
quantities follows different rules. “If you have two different physical
quantities that are conserved, like energy and angular momentum,”
Popescu said, “as long as you have a bath that contains both of them,
then you can trade one for another.”

In the hypothetical weight-reservoir-turntable system, the weight can be
lifted as the turntable slows down, or, conversely, lowering the weight
causes the turntable to spin faster. The researchers found that the
quantum information describing the particles’ energy and spin states can
act as a kind of currency that enables trading between the reservoir’s
energy and angular momentum supplies. The notion that conserved
quantities can be traded for one another in quantum systems is brand
new. It may suggest the need for a more complete thermodynamic theory
that would describe not only the flow of energy, but also the interplay
between all the conserved quantities in the universe.

The fact that energy has dominated the thermodynamics story up to now
might be circumstantial rather than profound, Oppenheim said. Carnot and
his successors might have developed a thermodynamic theory governing the
flow of, say, angular momentum to go with their engine theory, if only
there had been a need. “We have energy sources all around us that we
want to extract and use,” Oppenheim said. “It happens to be the case
that we don’t have big angular momentum heat baths around us. We don’t
come across huge gyroscopes.”

_”Popescu, who won a Dirac Medal last year for his insights in quantum
information theory and quantum foundations, said he and his
collaborators work by “pushing quantum mechanics into a corner,”
gathering at a blackboard and reasoning their way to a new insight after
which it’s easy to derive the 

Re: [Vo]:quantum thermodynamics and the Second Law--

[David Roberson]

Of course, in classical physics linear momentum and angular momentum are 
orthogonal to each other and can not be exchanged within a closed system.

Dave

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Bob Higgins 
To: vortex-l 
Sent: Sat, May 20, 2017 11:16 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:quantum thermodynamics and the Second Law--




This is interesting thinking.  The idea that angular momentum, linear momentum, 
and energy are "conserved" is a hypothesis created and supported (as I 
understand it) by observation, not by derivation based upon a fundamental 
principle.  While it would be a violation of the hypothesis, trading between 
these conserved quantities would not invalidate a fundamental premise (am I 
correct?).


So, Bob, when you say, "Trading nuclear potential energy for metal lattice 
electron orbital (thermal) angular momentum is LENR", what is the nuclear 
potential energy that you are saying is being traded (exchanged) into the 
electron orbital angular momentum?  What in the nucleus do you envision being 
traded?


Clearly the nucleus is not as well understood as we imagine.  If you read 
Norman Cook's book, "Models of the Atomic Nucleus", you will see the sorry 
state of things.  Present models for the nucleus predict fission as occurring 
in equal portions, but experiment shows that is far from the case.  Even though 
we rely heavily on engineering of nuclear fission, the models don't predict the 
characteristics of the reaction.  Could the "smallness" of the constituents in 
the nucleus allow interaction with a zero-point field, where at such small 
scales physics is different than we know?  Could the trading of "conserved" 
quantities be commonplace at such small scales?




On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:30 AM, bobcook39...@hotmail.com 
 wrote:


The following link contains interesting views on the subject of this thread.
 
IMHO these are key LENR concepts.   Trading nuclear potential energy for metal 
lattice electron orbital (thermal) angular momentum is LENR.
 
http://www.quantamagazine.org/the-quantum-thermodynamics-revolution-20170502/
 
The following is excerpted from the article on thermodynamics:
 
“Imagine a vast container, or reservoir, of particles that possess both
energy and angular momentum (they’re both moving around and spinning).
This reservoir is connected to both a weight, which takes energy to
lift, and a turning turntable, which takes angular momentum to speed up
or slow down. Normally, a single reservoir can’t do any work — this goes
back to Carnot’s discovery about the need for hot and cold reservoirs.
But the researchers found that a reservoir containing multiple conserved
quantities follows different rules. “If you have two different physical
quantities that are conserved, like energy and angular momentum,”
Popescu said, “as long as you have a bath that contains both of them,
then you can trade one for another.”
 
In the hypothetical weight-reservoir-turntable system, the weight can be
lifted as the turntable slows down, or, conversely, lowering the weight
causes the turntable to spin faster. The researchers found that the
quantum information describing the particles’ energy and spin states can
act as a kind of currency that enables trading between the reservoir’s
energy and angular momentum supplies. The notion that conserved
quantities can be traded for one another in quantum systems is brand
new. It may suggest the need for a more complete thermodynamic theory
that would describe not only the flow of energy, but also the interplay
between all the conserved quantities in the universe.
 
The fact that energy has dominated the thermodynamics story up to now
might be circumstantial rather than profound, Oppenheim said. Carnot and
his successors might have developed a thermodynamic theory governing the
flow of, say, angular momentum to go with their engine theory, if only
there had been a need. “We have energy sources all around us that we
want to extract and use,” Oppenheim said. “It happens to be the case
that we don’t have big angular momentum heat baths around us. We don’t
come across huge gyroscopes.”
 
_”Popescu, who won a Dirac Medal last year for his insights in quantum
information theory and quantum foundations, said he and his
collaborators work by “pushing quantum mechanics into a corner,”
gathering at a blackboard and reasoning their way to a new insight after
which it’s easy to derive the associated equations. Some realizations
are in the process of crystalizing. In one of several phone
conversations in March, Popescu discussed a new thought experiment that
illustrates a distinction between information and other conserved
quantities — and indicates how symmetries in nature might set them apart.”
 
 











Virus-free. www.avg.com 

[Vo]:A New Hope ...err Hoax

[H LV]

​
THE CONCEPTUAL PENIS AS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT: A SOKAL-STYLE HOAX ON GENDER
STUDIES

BY PETER BOGHOSSIAN, ED.D. (AKA PETER BOYLE, ED.D.)
AND JAMES LINDSAY, PH.D. (AKA, JAMIE LINDSAY, PH.D.)

Note from the editor: Every once in awhile it is necessary and desirable to
expose extreme ideologies for what they are by carrying out their arguments
and rhetoric to their logical and absurd conclusion, which is why we are
proud to publish this expose of a hoaxed article published in a
peer-reviewed article today. It’s ramifications are unknown but one hopes
it will help reign in extremism in this and related areas.
—Michael Shermer

“The conceptual penis as a social construct” is a Sokal-style hoax on
gender studies.

​​
http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/conceptual-penis-social-contruct-sokal-style-hoax-on-gender-studies/

Re: [Vo]:ZPE as the superset of Dark Energy

[H LV]

:o)

Harry

On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 10:58 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:

> Frigorific !
>
>
> H LV wrote:
>
>> Count Rumford vindicated?
>>
>> Harry
>>
>
>
> If nature has provided us with a bottomless heat sink, or free-cold so to
>> speak, then a lot of time has been wasted by inventors looking for
>> free-heat.
>>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:quantum thermodynamics and the Second Law--

[Bob Higgins]

This is interesting thinking.  The idea that angular momentum, linear
momentum, and energy are "conserved" is a hypothesis created and supported
(as I understand it) by observation, not by derivation based upon a
fundamental principle.  While it would be a violation of the hypothesis,
trading between these conserved quantities would not invalidate a
fundamental premise (am I correct?).

So, Bob, when you say, "Trading nuclear potential energy for metal lattice
electron orbital (thermal) angular momentum is LENR", what is the nuclear
potential energy that you are saying is being traded (exchanged) into the
electron orbital angular momentum?  What in the nucleus do you envision
being traded?

Clearly the nucleus is not as well understood as we imagine.  If you read
Norman Cook's book, "Models of the Atomic Nucleus", you will see the sorry
state of things.  Present models for the nucleus predict fission as
occurring in equal portions, but experiment shows that is far from the
case.  Even though we rely heavily on engineering of nuclear fission, the
models don't predict the characteristics of the reaction.  Could the
"smallness" of the constituents in the nucleus allow interaction with a
zero-point field, where at such small scales physics is different than we
know?  Could the trading of "conserved" quantities be commonplace at such
small scales?

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:30 AM, bobcook39...@hotmail.com <
bobcook39...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> The following link contains interesting views on the subject of this
> thread.
>
>
>
> IMHO these are key LENR concepts.   Trading nuclear potential energy for
> metal lattice electron orbital (thermal) angular momentum is LENR.
>
>
>
> http://www.quantamagazine.org/the-quantum-thermodynamics-
> revolution-20170502/
>
>
>
> The following is excerpted from the article on thermodynamics:
>
>
>
> “Imagine a vast container, or reservoir, of particles that possess both
>
> energy and angular momentum (they’re both moving around and spinning).
>
> This reservoir is connected to both a weight, which takes energy to
>
> lift, and a turning turntable, which takes angular momentum to speed up
>
> or slow down. Normally, a single reservoir can’t do any work — this goes
>
> back to Carnot’s discovery about the need for hot and cold reservoirs.
>
> But the researchers found that a reservoir containing multiple conserved
>
> quantities follows different rules. “If you have two different physical
>
> quantities that are conserved, like energy and angular momentum,”
>
> Popescu said, “as long as you have a bath that contains both of them,
>
> then you can trade one for another.”
>
>
>
> In the hypothetical weight-reservoir-turntable system, the weight can be
>
> lifted as the turntable slows down, or, conversely, lowering the weight
>
> causes the turntable to spin faster. The researchers found that the
>
> quantum information describing the particles’ energy and spin states can
>
> act as a kind of currency that enables trading between the reservoir’s
>
> energy and angular momentum supplies. The notion that conserved
>
> quantities can be traded for one another in quantum systems is brand
>
> new. It may suggest the need for a more complete thermodynamic theory
>
> that would describe not only the flow of energy, but also the interplay
>
> between all the conserved quantities in the universe.
>
>
>
> The fact that energy has dominated the thermodynamics story up to now
>
> might be circumstantial rather than profound, Oppenheim said. Carnot and
>
> his successors might have developed a thermodynamic theory governing the
>
> flow of, say, angular momentum to go with their engine theory, if only
>
> there had been a need. “We have energy sources all around us that we
>
> want to extract and use,” Oppenheim said. “It happens to be the case
>
> that we don’t have big angular momentum heat baths around us. We don’t
>
> come across huge gyroscopes.”
>
>
>
> _”Popescu, who won a Dirac Medal last year for his insights in quantum
>
> information theory and quantum foundations, said he and his
>
> collaborators work by “pushing quantum mechanics into a corner,”
>
> gathering at a blackboard and reasoning their way to a new insight after
>
> which it’s easy to derive the associated equations. Some realizations
>
> are in the process of crystalizing. In one of several phone
>
> conversations in March, Popescu discussed a new thought experiment that
>
> illustrates a distinction between information and other conserved
>
> quantities — and indicates how symmetries in nature might set them apart.”
>
>
>
>
>



Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

[Vo]:quantum thermodynamics and the Second Law--

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

The following link contains interesting views on the subject of this thread.

IMHO these are key LENR concepts.   Trading nuclear potential energy for metal 
lattice electron orbital (thermal) angular momentum is LENR.

http://www.quantamagazine.org/the-quantum-thermodynamics-revolution-20170502/

The following is excerpted from the article on thermodynamics:

“Imagine a vast container, or reservoir, of particles that possess both
energy and angular momentum (they’re both moving around and spinning).
This reservoir is connected to both a weight, which takes energy to
lift, and a turning turntable, which takes angular momentum to speed up
or slow down. Normally, a single reservoir can’t do any work — this goes
back to Carnot’s discovery about the need for hot and cold reservoirs.
But the researchers found that a reservoir containing multiple conserved
quantities follows different rules. “If you have two different physical
quantities that are conserved, like energy and angular momentum,”
Popescu said, “as long as you have a bath that contains both of them,
then you can trade one for another.”

In the hypothetical weight-reservoir-turntable system, the weight can be
lifted as the turntable slows down, or, conversely, lowering the weight
causes the turntable to spin faster. The researchers found that the
quantum information describing the particles’ energy and spin states can
act as a kind of currency that enables trading between the reservoir’s
energy and angular momentum supplies. The notion that conserved
quantities can be traded for one another in quantum systems is brand
new. It may suggest the need for a more complete thermodynamic theory
that would describe not only the flow of energy, but also the interplay
between all the conserved quantities in the universe.

The fact that energy has dominated the thermodynamics story up to now
might be circumstantial rather than profound, Oppenheim said. Carnot and
his successors might have developed a thermodynamic theory governing the
flow of, say, angular momentum to go with their engine theory, if only
there had been a need. “We have energy sources all around us that we
want to extract and use,” Oppenheim said. “It happens to be the case
that we don’t have big angular momentum heat baths around us. We don’t
come across huge gyroscopes.”

_”Popescu, who won a Dirac Medal last year for his insights in quantum
information theory and quantum foundations, said he and his
collaborators work by “pushing quantum mechanics into a corner,”
gathering at a blackboard and reasoning their way to a new insight after
which it’s easy to derive the associated equations. Some realizations
are in the process of crystalizing. In one of several phone
conversations in March, Popescu discussed a new thought experiment that
illustrates a distinction between information and other conserved
quantities — and indicates how symmetries in nature might set them apart.”