Re: [Vo]: Re: Scam or no?
On 3/22/07, Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We can assume that the capacitance is unbalanced and the the charge carrier is positive - since only a positive charge is available from an auto alternator (negative is ground). Huh? Automobiles are not earthed. Could you expand on this a bit? Terry
[Vo]: Re: Scam or no?
I didn't say earth ground. The steel in the auto is the chasis ground, no? Terry may be setting me up for one of Michel's 'proper English wording' lessons Methinks that most of the World thinks that the USA speaks English, but that hasn't been precisely accurate for quite some time ... Terry Blanton wrote: On 3/22/07, Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We can assume that the capacitance is unbalanced and the the charge carrier is positive - since only a positive charge is available from an auto alternator (negative is ground). Huh? Automobiles are not earthed. Could you expand on this a bit? Terry
Re: [Vo]: Re: Scam or no?
On 3/23/07, Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Terry may be setting me up for one of Michel's 'proper English wording' lessons No, I just don't understand why you say the charge carrier is positive. Terry
[Vo]: Re: Scam or no?
Terry may be setting me up for one of Michel's 'proper English wording' lessons No, I just don't understand why you say the charge carrier is positive. Here is the quote from the initial posting on how the inventor describes his cell - and admittedly it does not sound like conventional EE-jargon, so perhaps we can deconstruct what he is trying to say: Zigouras - The voltage applied to the cell never falls below +1 volt. As one side of the cell is connected to +13.8 volts, that means that the other side of the cell never goes above +12.8 volts. In other words, the square wave switches between zero volts and +12.8 volts 40,000 times per second. END of Zigouras quote. I was trying to tailor my comments on a working hypothesis (giving him the benefit of the doubt that he was getting 200 HP from only water) to this set of 'facts'. It is of course clear that massive positive charge imbalance in a water fog or mist would be difficult to achieve in an engine which is also chassis-grounded (unless the engine itself floats above ground - not likely). It is common knowledge among the water-fuel (JC) set that older ICE's often work better than new ones for this - and in the past, as you know, I have been vocal in saying that this could indicate that some of the energy is coming from crankcase oil which is leaking through the rings. One of the reasons I stop posting to those JC forums is hate-mail from true-believers asking - how can you know that they didn't have a new ring-job? They never claimed they did have new rings - only why would anyone assume they did not. Go figure. OTOH this factor (old engine working better than new one) could also mean that in an 10 year oldster, one with thickly oxidized (and electrically insulating) surfaces being formed over time on the manifold, piston crowns and cylinder head etc - that this helps to retain capacitance. We are only talking 14 v. here - and water mist can have a few acres per liter - of surface area - which translates into lots of capacitance. This would be especially true if there is some kind of positive charge sequestration, say in the center of a hexagonal arrangement of 6 water molecules - or even in a tetragonal grouping. Both are found in water in addition to the massive icosahedrons of Prof. Chaplin. which could easily sequester a charge. ... just thinking out loud(and hoping that it is not a scam). Jones
[Vo]: Re: Scam or no?
I wouldn't trust the money back guarantee ;-) The ebay auction page says: Sold for:US $1,150.00 Auction ended early with Buy It Now. So it seems they found a... what shall we call him/her... customer ;-) Note it's a scam which can reduce GW actually, in that it allows your ICE to run on electricity :) Michel - Original Message - From: Jones Beene [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 5:07 PM Subject: [Vo]: Scam or no? A small auto racing company called Zigouras has gotten into the ultra-efficient electrolysis fray and claims to power an ICE on self-generated hydrogen [Brown's Gas] with zero gasoline. Money back guarantee! The inventor, Paul Zigouras summarized the main details on another forum: 1. The cell is 316L grade s/s plates [Brown's Gas type] spaced at only 0.025 inch apart (0.6 mm) 2. Water goes in one end and gas comes out the other 3. The current drive is via many FET transistors in parallel 4. The output waveform is a perfect square wave as that has all harmonics in it 5. The central frequency is about 40 kHz 6. There is a frequency modulation wobble of the signal +1 to -3 kHz around the base frequency. 7. The current draw at 13.8 volts is between 160 and 190 amps. 8. A cell of about 20 plates 3 x 10 is capable of generating 20,000 litres of gas per minute. 9. The voltage applied to the cell never falls below +1 volt. As one side of the cell is connected to +13.8 volts, that means that the other side of the cell never goes above +12.8 volts. In other words, the square wave switches between zero volts and +12.8 volts 40,000 times per second. 10. Paul Z. developed his circuit by modifying the circuit from Kevin at www.waterforfuel.com. However, it is likely that Paul's final circuit does not have very much in common with Kevin's circuit as Paul did a good deal of development and testing. The company is in Brockton, Mass. They sound like they are onto something which is seemingly scientifically impossible. http://www.zigourasracing.com/ I would not even have mentioned it - since the claim is preposterous on its surface (although others have been making the same claim since Dad Garrett in 1935, especially Stan Meyers)... except that Zigouras do seems to be a valid racing outfit - so they must know a thing or two about engines. Zigouras Racing is building and recently started selling (on eBay!) this water-fuel technology (BG electrolysis) unit which sounds too good to be true, and probably is hyped-up beyond a real ability to validate, but anyway is there any anomaly at all in what they are doing? They have an electroyzer driven by very high amps off of a beefed up alternator in an auto - they are claiming to be capable of electrolyzing 5 gallons of water per minute (impossible !) and then using only this (part steam part H2 and O2 or Brown's gas) to power a vehicle with no gasoline! Not the first time this claim has been made, of course. Stanley Meyer returns from the grave g. Below is data from their eBay ad which appeared here (may be lapsed): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=120086147205 This is our first production ECM (electronic control module) for our standard water cell. This ECM is pictured on the right, and is rated at 150 amps output. This module comes completely calibrated to our 14-plate cell, and is plug-and-play -- no tuning required. If you are planning on running your car strictly on water, without the use of gasoline, this ECM will run the car just fine as long as your engine is around 2.5 L or so. Larger engines will have limited throttle response, and should use the larger ECM (pictured on the left) which is rated at up to 400 amps. This larger ECM will be auctioned off in a few days on ebay. The unit in this auction is capable of putting out over 150 amps (12VDC) at 35khz. This intelligent unit modifies the signal to allow for peak HHO gas output, while drawing minimal current. On smaller engines, you can generate up to 90 horsepower with our 14-plate cell, and over 150 horsepower with our 30-plate cell. The 30-plate cell requires the heavy duty version of this ECM, which only costs slightly more than the smaller version. This is version 1.0A of the ECM, which does not have any type of safeties built into it. Shorting the plates could cause damage to the electronics, so we recommend only using our cells for your projects. ECM has a 90 day warranty, if installed and used correctly. Warranty covers the ECM only -- labor and shipping is not included. If you are looking to run a V8 or other type of large engine, please call engineering at (508) 583-5133. We are currenty designing an ECM specifically for larger engines, even though doing so will consume a tremendous amount of water. Technical support is provided for the ECM at the number above, however, it
[Vo]: Re: Scam or no?
Let's say they were electrolyzing 5 gallons per hour, instead of per minute - The transit time from reactor to cylinder is in milliseconds, so even if the capacitance is not stable for much longer - it could somehow be effective. What I was referring to in that somewhat cryptic reference is the hypothesis that water-splitting may NOT be occurring per se. Technically this situation may NOT be electrolysis at all, in the sense of water being split into H2 and O2. Instead the power source would be the exploding water capacitor. This has been mentioned here several times as an alternative hypothesis for certain water fuel claims - like that of Stanley Meyer (if that were to be trusted), and it does not rule out other new physics contributions to the anomalous energy (hydrino etc). It does rule out steam, as opposed to water mist, since steam has too low a dielectric constant (~1, as opposed to 80 for pure water). If this kind of water-capacitor were to be exploded - to use the direct analogy to an exploding electrolytic capacitor then the question arises as to how much energy is available from this, compared with gasoline combustion. We can assume that the capacitance is unbalanced and the the charge carrier is positive - since only a positive charge is available from an auto alternator (negative is ground). This means that the charge must be shielded and we know that water, even as a mist favors a hexagonal structure - which can be a natural shield. If six water molecules were used to shield an electron hole, then that compound ion has a molecular weight of 6x18 = 106 and if this ion were to collapse in a capacitor-like situation - it would probably attract the needed electron from the ubiquitous Dirac epo-field (electron-postitron pairs) which is the QM virtual foam and a proven resource in quantum mechanics. At that point the energy available might not be the full annihilation energy, but instead the electron-positron ionization potential, or 6.8 eV per 106 a.m.u. Doesn't sound like enough. Gasoline combustion resulting in CO2 gives more apparent energy per amu - ostensibly - until you realize that for every Oxygen molecule which is used, there must be 4 nitrogen molecules (since that is the ratio of air), ergo the net energy of gasoline, burned in air is actually less per net amu (atomic mass unit) of the exhaust constituents (arguably) then is the exploding water-fuel capacitor, in this grossly oversimplified comparison. This methodology assumes that this natural fuel, which is little more then ionized water mist, is the conduit for coherence of electron-positron pairs in much higher QM probability than normal. It is still troubling that this has situation not been seen by mainstream science before now - if it has any validity - and that such a very high COP could have gone undetected for so long... ...unless, of course, the tropical hurricane and other electrical storms provides some of that evidence and hidden proof -- from mother-nature herself. Jones BTW - the last paragraph from this blog - or all of it really, is where Zigouras got the idea - basically it is an improvement of SA Meyer: http://blog.waterforfuel.com/search.aspx?q=Zigouras
