[Vo]:100000 e-cats preordered
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510cpage=46#comment-182601 replying to someone asking how many e-cats where pre ordered already, rossi made the following comment : about 100,000 As the pre order announce occurred about 81 days ago this gives us about 1234 pre orders everyday, well i guess rossi's mailbox must be pretty crowded these days and i think the assistant sorting out all those orders every day really deserves our gratitude for doing such an insane job. So how many of these ordered 10+ units ? everyone ? this still makes at least 123 orders to sort everyday, 100 ? we go down to 12 orders per day, seems more manageable, but anyway something seems a bit off with these numbers.
Re: [Vo]:100000 e-cats preordered
I was thinking: As a good example, the ecatnews.com headline reads: Andrea Rossi: Almost 100,000 Domestic eCat Orders. How many of you have (subconsciously?) read this as domestic orders for an eCat instead of orders for a domestic eCat? And how many of you have assumed for other reasons that this preorder list was limited to individuals? In fact I think it is not limited to that in any way. If I were Rossi I'd carry a notebook and jot down everyone with a big mouth : individuals, small business owners, large business representitives, for the numbers they are even half-jokingly mentioning. And why not? In the end all these orders, including my own (which I put in on the first day the list was opened, when it was priced substantially higher than it is now), are subject to that one conditional: the device should work. If *he* knows it works, he knows the condition is met, and there is no real reason not to accept these words as a preorder, even if the one who said it was not convinced himself at the time. Andre On 02/10/2012 08:38 AM, zer tte wrote: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510cpage=46#comment-182601 replying to someone asking how many e-cats where pre ordered already, rossi made the following comment : about 100,000 As the pre order announce occurred about 81 days ago this gives us about 1234 pre orders everyday, well i guess rossi's mailbox must be pretty crowded these days and i think the assistant sorting out all those orders every day really deserves our gratitude for doing such an insane job. So how many of these ordered 10+ units ? everyone ? this still makes at least 123 orders to sort everyday, 100 ? we go down to 12 orders per day, seems more manageable, but anyway something seems a bit off with these numbers.
Re: [Vo]:100000 e-cats preordered
What, exactly, do mean 100,000 orders for a product that is not still on the market? Is this a proof of the products value and performances? The workld market for such a product is in the range of hundreds of millions. Peter On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Andre Blum andre_vor...@blums.nl wrote: I was thinking: As a good example, the ecatnews.com headline reads: Andrea Rossi: Almost 100,000 Domestic eCat Orders. How many of you have (subconsciously?) read this as domestic orders for an eCat instead of orders for a domestic eCat? And how many of you have assumed for other reasons that this preorder list was limited to individuals? In fact I think it is not limited to that in any way. If I were Rossi I'd carry a notebook and jot down everyone with a big mouth : individuals, small business owners, large business representitives, for the numbers they are even half-jokingly mentioning. And why not? In the end all these orders, including my own (which I put in on the first day the list was opened, when it was priced substantially higher than it is now), are subject to that one conditional: the device should work. If *he* knows it works, he knows the condition is met, and there is no real reason not to accept these words as a preorder, even if the one who said it was not convinced himself at the time. Andre On 02/10/2012 08:38 AM, zer tte wrote: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510cpage=46#comment-182601 replying to someone asking how many e-cats where pre ordered already, rossi made the following comment : about 100,000 As the pre order announce occurred about 81 days ago this gives us about 1234 pre orders everyday, well i guess rossi's mailbox must be pretty crowded these days and i think the assistant sorting out all those orders every day really deserves our gratitude for doing such an insane job. So how many of these ordered 10+ units ? everyone ? this still makes at least 123 orders to sort everyday, 100 ? we go down to 12 orders per day, seems more manageable, but anyway something seems a bit off with these numbers. -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
RE: [Vo]:100000 e-cats preordered
As It stands right now, no money is actually tied to these preorders. I'm sure that in A.R's world, they serve to legitimize his claims. For a potential investor, it would be requiring to hear that he has already received 100,000 firm commitments (and actually sold fourteen 1MW plants!). As one of the sillier examples of his preorder method, let's take Wladimir as an example: Wladimir Guglinski February 8th, 2012 at 2:59 AM Dear Mr. Andrea Rossi May I pre-order 1000 eCats? Firstly I will ask to send me 5 eCats. After selling them, I will ask more 10, and after selling them more 20… more 40… etc. Regarded Wlad Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 15:58:31 +0200 Subject: Re: [Vo]:10 e-cats preordered From: peter.gl...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com What, exactly, do mean 100,000 orders fora product that is not still on the market?Is this a proof of the products value and performances? The workld market for such a product is in the range of hundreds of millions. Peter On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Andre Blum andre_vor...@blums.nl wrote: I was thinking: As a good example, the ecatnews.com headline reads: Andrea Rossi: Almost 100,000 Domestic eCat Orders. How many of you have (subconsciously?) read this as domestic orders for an eCat instead of orders for a domestic eCat? And how many of you have assumed for other reasons that this preorder list was limited to individuals? In fact I think it is not limited to that in any way. If I were Rossi I'd carry a notebook and jot down everyone with a big mouth : individuals, small business owners, large business representitives, for the numbers they are even half-jokingly mentioning. And why not? In the end all these orders, including my own (which I put in on the first day the list was opened, when it was priced substantially higher than it is now), are subject to that one conditional: the device should work. If *he* knows it works, he knows the condition is met, and there is no real reason not to accept these words as a preorder, even if the one who said it was not convinced himself at the time. Andre On 02/10/2012 08:38 AM, zer tte wrote: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510cpage=46#comment-182601 replying to someone asking how many e-cats where pre ordered already, rossi made the following comment : about 100,000 As the pre order announce occurred about 81 days ago this gives us about 1234 pre orders everyday, well i guess rossi's mailbox must be pretty crowded these days and i think the assistant sorting out all those orders every day really deserves our gratitude for doing such an insane job. So how many of these ordered 10+ units ? everyone ? this still makes at least 123 orders to sort everyday, 100 ? we go down to 12 orders per day, seems more manageable, but anyway something seems a bit off with these numbers. -- Dr. Peter GluckCluj, Romaniahttp://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:100000 e-cats preordered
Yes it is a bit unusual, as Wlad's paper are too. Peter On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 4:37 PM, Robert Leguillon robert.leguil...@hotmail.com wrote: As It stands right now, no money is actually tied to these preorders. I'm sure that in A.R's world, they serve to legitimize his claims. For a potential investor, it would be requiring to hear that he has already received 100,000 firm commitments (and actually sold fourteen 1MW plants!). As one of the sillier examples of his preorder method, let's take Wladimir as an example: Wladimir Guglinski February 8th, 2012 at 2:59 AM Dear Mr. Andrea Rossi May I pre-order 1000 eCats? Firstly I will ask to send me 5 eCats. After selling them, I will ask more 10, and after selling them more 20… more 40… etc. Regarded Wlad -- Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 15:58:31 +0200 Subject: Re: [Vo]:10 e-cats preordered From: peter.gl...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com What, exactly, do mean 100,000 orders for a product that is not still on the market? Is this a proof of the products value and performances? The workld market for such a product is in the range of hundreds of millions. Peter On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Andre Blum andre_vor...@blums.nl wrote: I was thinking: As a good example, the ecatnews.com headline reads: Andrea Rossi: Almost 100,000 Domestic eCat Orders. How many of you have (subconsciously?) read this as domestic orders for an eCat instead of orders for a domestic eCat? And how many of you have assumed for other reasons that this preorder list was limited to individuals? In fact I think it is not limited to that in any way. If I were Rossi I'd carry a notebook and jot down everyone with a big mouth : individuals, small business owners, large business representitives, for the numbers they are even half-jokingly mentioning. And why not? In the end all these orders, including my own (which I put in on the first day the list was opened, when it was priced substantially higher than it is now), are subject to that one conditional: the device should work. If *he* knows it works, he knows the condition is met, and there is no real reason not to accept these words as a preorder, even if the one who said it was not convinced himself at the time. Andre On 02/10/2012 08:38 AM, zer tte wrote: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510cpage=46#comment-182601 replying to someone asking how many e-cats where pre ordered already, rossi made the following comment : about 100,000 As the pre order announce occurred about 81 days ago this gives us about 1234 pre orders everyday, well i guess rossi's mailbox must be pretty crowded these days and i think the assistant sorting out all those orders every day really deserves our gratitude for doing such an insane job. So how many of these ordered 10+ units ? everyone ? this still makes at least 123 orders to sort everyday, 100 ? we go down to 12 orders per day, seems more manageable, but anyway something seems a bit off with these numbers. -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:100000 e-cats preordered
From Peter, What, exactly, do mean 100,000 orders for a product that is not still on the market? ... Good question. One way I can look at this conundrum is to do some simple napkin math. 100,000 orders x $500 to $1000 (retail price per eCat) comes to gross sales of approximately 50 to 100 million dollars. I can not overemphasize the term POTENTIAL gross sales. 50 to 100 million certainly sounds impressive. I guess if I were in Andrea's shoes perhaps I would take those figures to the bank and use it as a form of financial collateral in order to secure additional funding to help scale up mass production. A loan officer might be favorably inclined to bite after reviewing the financial potential. But who really knows what Rossi is up to. Rossi strikes me as someone who has a propensity to change his business plans on a dime if it suits his best interests to do so. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It's just business. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:100000 e-cats preordered
From Peter: ... As one of the sillier examples of his preorder method, let's take Wladimir as an example: Wladimir Guglinski February 8th, 2012 at 2:59 AM Dear Mr. Andrea Rossi May I pre-order 1000 eCats? Firstly I will ask to send me 5 eCats. After selling them, I will ask more 10, and after selling them more 20… more 40… etc. Regarded Wlad LOL! Thanks for posting that one,Peter. Let me put my Mr. Rodger's Hat on: Can you spell Ponzi Scheme? ;-) Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:100000 e-cats preordered
A good Ponzi scheme needs some intelligence and organization. We in Romanian had two great ones after the 1989 revolution- made many people bankrupt. You had one really great recently. But this scheme 100,000 (coming 1000,000,000 next) so called orders is IMHO just a game, circus, marketing parody. Surely you can find a better name for it. Surrealistic. Peter On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 5:14 PM, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: From Peter: ... As one of the sillier examples of his preorder method, let's take Wladimir as an example: Wladimir Guglinski February 8th, 2012 at 2:59 AM Dear Mr. Andrea Rossi May I pre-order 1000 eCats? Firstly I will ask to send me 5 eCats. After selling them, I will ask more 10, and after selling them more 20… more 40… etc. Regarded Wlad LOL! Thanks for posting that one,Peter. Let me put my Mr. Rodger's Hat on: Can you spell Ponzi Scheme? ;-) Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:100000 e-cats preordered
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 10:40 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: A good Ponzi scheme needs some intelligence and organization. We in Romanian had two great ones after the 1989 revolution- made many people bankrupt. You had one really great recently. But this scheme 100,000 (coming 1000,000,000 next) so called orders is IMHO just a game, circus, marketing parody. Surely you can find a better name for it. Surrealistic. We have two phrases, Selling a pig in a poke and Let the cat out of the bag. Selling a pig in a poke or bag means that the buyer should beware because he is likely not buying a pig. And when someone lets the cat out of the bag, the potential buyer is aware of the attempt to scam him. T
Re: [Vo]:100000 e-cats preordered
On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 6:08 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 10:40 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: A good Ponzi scheme needs some intelligence and organization. We in Romanian had two great ones after the 1989 revolution- made many people bankrupt. You had one really great recently. But this scheme 100,000 (coming 1000,000,000 next) so called orders is IMHO just a game, circus, marketing parody. Surely you can find a better name for it. Surrealistic. We have two phrases, Selling a pig in a poke and Let the cat out of the bag. Selling a pig in a poke or bag means that the buyer should beware because he is likely not buying a pig. And when someone lets the cat out of the bag, the potential buyer is aware of the attempt to scam him. See please my old paper: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com/2011/05/buying-e-cat-in-sack.html No real dialogue possible with Rossi, sorry for him. Peter -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:100000 e-cats preordered
From Peter: ... See please my old paper: http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com/2011/05/buying-e-cat-in-sack.html No real dialogue possible with Rossi, sorry for him. Peter Personally, I think it's a tad premature for us to feel sorry for Rossi. He strikes me as an extraordinarily intuitive entrepreneur when it comes to assessing potential business relationships. Granted, on the surface Rossi's business strategy doesn't seem to reveal a smooth track record - a track record which self-appointed skeptics love to luxuriate in. But, hey, I get the impression that most enterprises (particularly those considered to be outrageous, like Rossi's) tend to reveal a string of unpredictable patterns shrouded in mystique and misinformation. This is, of course, augmented by the fact that countless detractors will make sure everyone within earshot will claim such enterprises are positively, absolutely impossible. All considered, I still think it's possible Rossi's obfuscations of the deliberate kind could eventually allow him to get his cake and eat it too. We just don't know yet. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:100000 e-cats preordered
Von:Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Gesendet: 17:29 Freitag, 10.Februar 2012 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:10 e-cats preordered No real dialogue possible with Rossi, sorry for him. Peter --- in this very diffuse situation I would jump to Rossi's defense. Think about that: Rossi has to finance quite a big enterprise. To not totally sell out to 'investors', the preorders are an asset to him, to get good conditions from banks, to finance the enterprise. W.r.t. the whole enterprise, Rossi at first has only the 'believers' on his side. A 1mio/y facility needs say a 100mio investment. If he has preorders of say 100k units, this would amount to a virtual asset of 50Mio, which is in risk-adjusted terms maybe 20mio, i.e. 20% of the enterprise. This is a difficult game, to be sure. But in the first place this is a back-of the napkin calculation, which everybody can do in short time. And surely Rossi too, because he is used to that. Long words, short conclusion: This is extend, pretend, deliver or not, but not the final nail into Rossi's Dracula-heart, as my friend Peter, the good Romanian, is tempted to hammer. Rossi is not quite where he wants to be, but he plays the game, maybe to keep up with Defkalion. This is very much like a poker game, with Rossi and Defkalion sitting on the table. Maybe its all bluff, but then: who pays? Does not make much sense, right? There must be a real asset.
Re: [Vo]:100000 e-cats preordered
OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: 50 to 100 million certainly sounds impressive. I guess if I were in Andrea's shoes perhaps I would take those figures to the bank and use it as a form of financial collateral in order to secure additional funding to help scale up mass production. Good idea. That is a valid basis for a loan. That is an enviable position for Rossi, like GM getting pre-orders for the Volt. Rossi strikes me as someone who has a propensity to change his business plans on a dime if it suits his best interests to do so. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It's just business. It is not a bad thing. I wish he would change again, and this time come up with a more realistic business strategy. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:100000 e-cats preordered
This thread is about the list of the 100.000 domestic E-cats and my opinion is that it is a bluff. On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: 50 to 100 million certainly sounds impressive. I guess if I were in Andrea's shoes perhaps I would take those figures to the bank and use it as a form of financial collateral in order to secure additional funding to help scale up mass production. Good idea. That is a valid basis for a loan. That is an enviable position for Rossi, like GM getting pre-orders for the Volt. Rossi strikes me as someone who has a propensity to change his business plans on a dime if it suits his best interests to do so. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It's just business. It is not a bad thing. I wish he would change again, and this time come up with a more realistic business strategy. I don't wish any bad to Rossi, but I think that it is not good that the development of this new source of energy should depend on Rossi alone or mainly. We have to distinguish his invention from his methods and his character. Piantelli, Defkalion and others to come will make this development less chaotic, more faster. and healthier. Peter - Jed -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:100000 e-cats preordered
Von: Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Gesendet: 20:08 Freitag, 10.Februar 2012 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:10 e-cats preordered I don't wish any bad to Rossi, but I think that it is not good that the development of this new source of energy should depend on Rossi alone or mainly. We have to distinguish his invention from his methods and his character. Piantelli, Defkalion and others to come will make this development less chaotic, more faster. and healthier. Peter, This thread is about the list of the 100.000 domestic E-cats and my opinion is that it is a bluff. -- As I tried to argue, it is sort of a 'bluff' on the commercial side, which scientifically minded people, or existentially minded people like us do not understand or cannot appreciate. If I put myself into the shoe of Rossi, as the Indian saying goes, I understand him, albeit it is unclear whether he is right or wrong. This puzzles us, because we strive for clarity. But maybe this is the very problem, when we have NO theory, or TOO MANY theories, which is somehow synonymous. If Rossi is a fraud, then at least he told us a lesson about the very fundamentals of our beliefs. I do not think that Rossi recognizes himself as a fraud, and acts accordingly. Far from that! He exactly acts according to his blief, and adjusts the world, he is living in, according to his belief. This is not very different from Galileo So the proof is in the pudding. Maybe we should just wait a bit, to see this all unfolding. But on the other hand, it is so much fun, to mess with the matter, right?
Re: [Vo]:100000 e-cats preordered
Guenter, I agree with what you say, but I want to see the problem solved. My time- the rest is short. Plus in the area where I spent my first 21 years till I became an engineer (Temeswar, Banat)_ correctness, punctuality, honesty and hard work were basic values. We don't like Gauners and Rossi is one, even if the inventions works and can be made to work very well. The man is the style, or vice-versa? Peter On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Guenter Wildgruber gwildgru...@ymail.comwrote: -- *Von:* Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com *An:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Gesendet:* 20:08 Freitag, 10.Februar 2012 *Betreff:* Re: [Vo]:10 e-cats preordered I don't wish any bad to Rossi, but I think that it is not good that the development of this new source of energy should depend on Rossi alone or mainly. We have to distinguish his invention from his methods and his character. Piantelli, Defkalion and others to come will make this development less chaotic, more faster. and healthier. Peter, This thread is about the list of the 100.000 domestic E-cats and my opinion is that it is a bluff. -- As I tried to argue, it is sort of a 'bluff' on the commercial side, which scientifically minded people, or existentially minded people like us do not understand or cannot appreciate. If I put myself into the shoe of Rossi, as the Indian saying goes, I understand him, albeit it is unclear whether he is right or wrong. This puzzles us, because we strive for clarity. But maybe this is the very problem, when we have NO theory, or TOO MANY theories, which is somehow synonymous. If Rossi is a fraud, then at least he told us a lesson about the very fundamentals of our beliefs. I do not think that Rossi recognizes himself as a fraud, and acts accordingly. Far from that! He exactly acts according to his blief, and adjusts the world, he is living in, according to his belief. This is not very different from Galileo So the proof is in the pudding. Maybe we should just wait a bit, to see this all unfolding. But on the other hand, it is so much fun, to mess with the matter, right? -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
