[Vo]:Bob Park is back!
In his Dec 01 (?) "What's New", Bob Park speaks in his usual style about cold fusion see- LET ME COUNT THE WAYS: PSEUDOSCIENCE IS AN ENORMOUS FIELD CF is on the first place! -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Bob Park is back!
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:10 PM, Peter Gluck wrote: > In his Dec 01 (?) "What's New", Bob Park > speaks in his usual style about cold fusion > see- LET ME COUNT THE WAYS: PSEUDOSCIENCE > IS AN ENORMOUS FIELD > CF is on the first place! > You must be on his mailing list. The newest I find is Nov 28: http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/index.html Do you have a link, pls?
Re: [Vo]:Bob Park is back!
no link yet, sorry but this is the relevant text: 3. LET ME COUNT THE WAYS: PSEUDOSCIENCE IS AN ENORMOUS FIELD There are, I think, many more of them than there are of us. Let me mention just a few of the more notorious: Stanley Pons and Martin Fleishman, who gave us Cold Fusion in 1989, are the most famous in the Free Energy Category. Even so, physicists had their number in a couple of weeks. More recently (2006) in the same category, the Steorn Company in Dublin gave us Orbo, a classic perpetual motion machine. So classic it gets reinvented every century or so. Unfortunately Orbo is shy and refuses to perform when anyone’s watching. In the Chicken-Little Category, Devra Davis says the 5 billion cell-phone users are toast when we reach the latency period of brain cancer. Alas, I'm reaching my limit and there are hundreds more on my list. Maybe I'll write a book, or did I already do that? On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Mary Yugo wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 12:10 PM, Peter Gluck wrote: > >> In his Dec 01 (?) "What's New", Bob Park >> speaks in his usual style about cold fusion >> see- LET ME COUNT THE WAYS: PSEUDOSCIENCE >> IS AN ENORMOUS FIELD >> CF is on the first place! >> > > > You must be on his mailing list. The newest I find is Nov 28: > > http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/index.html > > Do you have a link, pls? > -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Bob Park is back!
Thanks for posting the actual paragraph, Peter. > 3. LET ME COUNT THE WAYS: PSEUDOSCIENCE IS AN ENORMOUS FIELD > There are, I think, many more of them than there are of us. Let me mention > just a few of the more notorious: Stanley Pons and Martin Fleishman, who > gave us Cold Fusion in 1989, are the most famous in the Free Energy > Category. Even so, physicists had their number in a couple of weeks. More > recently (2006) in the same category, the Steorn Company in Dublin gave us > Orbo, a classic perpetual motion machine. So classic it gets reinvented > every century or so. Unfortunately Orbo is shy and refuses to perform when > anyone’s watching. In the Chicken-Little Category, Devra Davis says the 5 > billion cell-phone users are toast when we reach the latency period of > brain cancer. Alas, I'm reaching my limit and there are hundreds more on > my list. Maybe I'll write a book, or did I already do that? And still no mention of Rossi, Defkalion, and the rest. Seems to me this only makes Park's deliberate action of continuing to ignore the elephant in the middle of the living room even more striking. Does anyone seriously question the possibility that Park remains unaware of Rossi, Defkalion, and the rest of the eCat gang? Seriously? This is deflection - trying to give CF a black eye by casting random dispersions into the field. It won't work. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Bob Park is back!
The whole thing is related to pseudoscience and ignorance, and it's all relevant. Here it is: 1. HACKS: SHODDY PRESS COVERAGE OF SCIENCE. The Leveson Inquiry into the standards and ethics of the UK press, headed by Lord Justice Brian Leveson, was prompted by the News of the World phone- hacking scandal (WN 22 Jul 2011). The seamy British tabloid was the top- selling English-language newspaper in the world when owner Rupert Murdoch had to close it five months ago after its news-collection methods were exposed. The intense public interest in the sex and drug culture of celebrities is certainly troubling, but the same journalistic standards applied to science news may be more dangerous. In 1998, for example, Andrew Wakefield, an obscure British gastroenterologist, set off a worldwide vaccination panic when he falsely identified the common MMR vaccination as a cause of autism. Widely reported by the press, Wakefield's irresponsible assertion led to a precipitous decline in vaccination rate and a corresponding 14-year rise in measles cases. An editorial in the current issue of Nature (8 Dec 2011) urges scientists to "fight back against agenda-driven reporting of science." Who could disagree? It is, after all, a fight against ignorance. 2. IGNORANCE: THERE'S PLENTY MORE WHERE THAT CAME FROM. A commitment to intellectual openness provides a mechanism for self- correction that sets science apart from the unchanging dictates of revealed religion, raising the prospect of transforming Earth into something close to biblical paradise, at least for Homo sapiens. Directions to this earthly paradise, however, are written in mathematics. In particular, the dialect of scientific progress is differential equations. Unfortunately, few people speak mathematics or have any interest in learning it. In the modern world, the engine of scientific progress is driven by a subset of the human race that speaks mathematics as a second language. This is not healthy. Many people, unable to distinguish science from pseudoscience, are duped by crackpots and swindlers who attempt to mimic scientists, and often manage to fool themselves. How do they do it? 3. LET ME COUNT THE WAYS: PSEUDOSCIENCE IS AN ENORMOUS FIELD There are, I think, many more of them than there are of us. Let me mention just a few of the more notorious: Stanley Pons and Martin Fleishman, who gave us Cold Fusion in 1989, are the most famous in the Free Energy Category. Even so, physicists had their number in a couple of weeks. More recently (2006) in the same category, the Steorn Company in Dublin gave us Orbo, a classic perpetual motion machine. So classic it gets reinvented every century or so. Unfortunately Orbo is shy and refuses to perform when anyone’s watching. In the Chicken-Little Category, Devra Davis says the 5 billion cell-phone users are toast when we reach the latency period of brain cancer. Alas, I'm reaching my limit and there are hundreds more on my list. Maybe I'll write a book, or did I already do that?
Re: [Vo]:Bob Park is back!
OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote: > Does anyone seriously question the possibility that Park > remains unaware of Rossi, Defkalion, and the rest of the eCat gang? > Seriously? > It hasn't been in the mass media much. I don't anyone who has discussed this with Park . . . I suppose it is possible he does not know. Or he heard months ago and it slipped his mind. I'm a little puzzled why you think he might refrain from attacking Rossi. Why would he be indirect, or use deflection? He is not reticent about expressing his opinions. If he attacks cold fusion I do not think he would hold back from attacking Rossi. Everyone I know thinks they are the same phenomenon. Rossi and Defkalion deny this but I assume that is only for business purposes. Rossi has no credibility in the wider world. Most news articles say he is probably a fraud. Maybe Park thinks the news articles are enough. Perhaps he thinks Rossi is far out and so disreputable he does not merit debunking. Just another in a long line of frauds. Park says all cold fusion results are fraud or delusion. That's what he told me last time the subject came up. I do not think he bothers to make any distinctions or to call out any particular worker. Perhaps he thinks Rossi is no better or worse than anyone else. You have to realize that people like Park are profoundly ignorant of this subject. He says he has never read any papers and I think that is true. He does not know what the claims are, or what supporting evidence there is, or how many people have replicated. Mary Yugo also says she has read no papers. I believe her. Most confirmed skeptics refuse to read anything. If they read something, and understood it, they would not be skeptics, would they? The only people I know who have read many papers and yet who do not believe the mainstream results such as McKubre's are Britz and Krivit. I find them both a little strange. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Bob Park is back!
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Most confirmed skeptics refuse to read anything. > It's not refusal. It's that they are not interested. Most skeptics are satisfied that if the grandiose claims were real, simple and obvious demonstrations would not only be possible, but would be ubiquitous, and then, as in 1989, they would all leap in quicker than you can say lenr. If they read something, and understood it, they would not be skeptics, > would they? > Yes, they would. The DOE panel read it, understood it, and were still skeptical.
Re: [Vo]:Bob Park is back!
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > If he attacks cold fusion I do not think he would hold back from attacking > Rossi. Everyone I know thinks they are the same phenomenon. > Guess you don't know me! I think there might possibly be something to cold fusion. I also think Rossi is most likely a crook and his E-cat is a fraud. I also think Defkalion has nothing and never did -- not even as lame a bunch of evidence as Rossi has tried to put forth. Mary Yugo also says she has read no papers. > No longer the case. I slogged through a couple, was not impressed by their clarity and robustness and stopped reading them. When I read a paper purporting to show a new source of energy, I want to see iron clad blank runs and calibrations and then I want to see a robust, long lasting excess heat shown on a proper heat output vs time plot. > I believe her. Most confirmed skeptics refuse to read anything. If they > read something, and understood it, they would not be skeptics, would they? > Sure they would be -- if they either didn't believe the results or thought they were insufficient proof. > The only people I know who have read many papers and yet who do not > believe the mainstream results such as McKubre's are Britz and Krivit. I > find them both a little strange. > I'm sure they return the compliment. Parks is a straw man and a red herring to combine two metaphors in one. Everyone including him would be convinced if Rossi had bothered to get ONE single properly done independent test or if any other researcher had anything like Rossi's claimed robust output and got it properly verified. With respect to Rossi, the single good test would have to be in addition to or instead of his weird and likely misdirecting and deceptive demonstrations. And that's before you even get to his ridiculous, laughable, comically awkward, anonymous client who is said to have bought 13 essentially useless leaky kloodges in huge containers. Like he really expected anyone to believe that unsupported assertion? That's more than 1300 Ottoman E-cats to service and maintain! How would you like that job? Strangely, a surprising number of people actually believe this improbable fantasy! I never cease to be amazed at that.
Re: [Vo]:Bob Park is back!
Mary Yugo wrote: Mary Yugo also says she has read no papers. >> > > No longer the case. I slogged through a couple, was not impressed by > their clarity and robustness and stopped reading them. > If you find McKubre, Miles or Storms difficult to read then you are not very good at calorimetry, despite your claim to having some expertise in it. This is like reading Niclaus Wirth and concluding he does not know how to describe programming well, because his discussion of recursion is complicated. > Parks is a straw man . . . PARK, Park, Park, Park. Not plural Parks. Park. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Bob Park is back!
Jed, Peter can correct me if I error on this point but I believe he has repeatedly attempted to contact Dr. Park specifically in regard to the Rossi saga. Numerous times. I believe Peter as posted the fact that Park has never responded to any of his repeated inquiries. I'm sure others have attempted to contact Park as well on Rossi. IMO, I find it highly... HIGHLY unlikely that Park has not heard of Rossi. Meanwhile, in Park's Dec 15 publication he couldn't help but mention his disdain towards Steorn and their Orbo prototype. I don't consider Steorn's operations as being no that much more visible that Rossi's operations. Going after individuals like Rossi strikes me as something Park would love to do. After all, he's gone after Steorn. Therefore, under the circumstance why wouldn't he go after Rossi, an individual who comes across as a flagrant carnival barker, for Pete's sake! Shoot! Even the Amazing Randy has already lifted his leg on this hydrant, as seen in that ridiculous You-Tube installment. So, why wouldn't Park...unless, IMHO, he has deliberately chosen to avoid discussing the matter... for now. Please understand, I think you are correct in the sense that I suspect Park doesn't believe in Rossi or his eCats. However, my suspicion is that what Park has seen so far has caused him to refrain from going after Rossi publicly. I suspect he is looking for more definitive proof that Rossi and his eCats are fraudulent, but that he has not yet found sufficient evidence. Only circumstantial here-say. To me, Park is acting like a smart bully who knows how to stay in power. A good bully knows when to refrain from getting in the middle of the lime light. He will let others less experienced than him do the ground work, like MY or J. Cude. If these individuals can find something definitive, I'm sure Park will come out swinging. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Bob Park is back!
It's not relevant, because his criticism is against innumeracy, which applies to such delusions as astrology and homeopathy, but not cold fusion, where the most serious advocates are scientists, who certainly know their differential equations. Why would anyone mention cold fusion in 2011, and raise P & F as the example, while neglecting Rossi? That's really bizarre. On Dec 15, 2011, at 16:36, Joshua Cude wrote: > The whole thing is related to pseudoscience and ignorance, and it's all > relevant. Here it is: > > > 1. HACKS: SHODDY PRESS COVERAGE OF SCIENCE. > The Leveson Inquiry into the standards and ethics of the UK press, headed > by Lord Justice Brian Leveson, was prompted by the News of the World phone- > hacking scandal (WN 22 Jul 2011). The seamy British tabloid was the top- > selling English-language newspaper in the world when owner Rupert Murdoch > had to close it five months ago after its news-collection methods were > exposed. The intense public interest in the sex and drug culture of > celebrities is certainly troubling, but the same journalistic standards > applied to science news may be more dangerous. In 1998, for example, > Andrew Wakefield, an obscure British gastroenterologist, set off a > worldwide vaccination panic when he falsely identified the common MMR > vaccination as a cause of autism. Widely reported by the press, > Wakefield's irresponsible assertion led to a precipitous decline in > vaccination rate and a corresponding 14-year rise in measles cases. An > editorial in the current issue of Nature (8 Dec 2011) urges scientists > to "fight back against agenda-driven reporting of science." Who could > disagree? It is, after all, a fight against ignorance. > > 2. IGNORANCE: THERE'S PLENTY MORE WHERE THAT CAME FROM. > A commitment to intellectual openness provides a mechanism for self- > correction that sets science apart from the unchanging dictates of revealed > religion, raising the prospect of transforming Earth into something close > to biblical paradise, at least for Homo sapiens. Directions to this > earthly paradise, however, are written in mathematics. In particular, the > dialect of scientific progress is differential equations. Unfortunately, > few people speak mathematics or have any interest in learning it. In the > modern world, the engine of scientific progress is driven by a subset of > the human race that speaks mathematics as a second language. This is not > healthy. Many people, unable to distinguish science from pseudoscience, > are duped by crackpots and swindlers who attempt to mimic scientists, and > often manage to fool themselves. How do they do it? > > 3. LET ME COUNT THE WAYS: PSEUDOSCIENCE IS AN ENORMOUS FIELD > There are, I think, many more of them than there are of us. Let me mention > just a few of the more notorious: Stanley Pons and Martin Fleishman, who > gave us Cold Fusion in 1989, are the most famous in the Free Energy > Category. Even so, physicists had their number in a couple of weeks. More > recently (2006) in the same category, the Steorn Company in Dublin gave us > Orbo, a classic perpetual motion machine. So classic it gets reinvented > every century or so. Unfortunately Orbo is shy and refuses to perform when > anyone’s watching. In the Chicken-Little Category, Devra Davis says the 5 > billion cell-phone users are toast when we reach the latency period of > brain cancer. Alas, I'm reaching my limit and there are hundreds more on > my list. Maybe I'll write a book, or did I already do that? > >
Re: [Vo]:Bob Park is back!
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:37 PM, Charles Hope wrote: > It's not relevant, because his criticism is against innumeracy, which > applies to such delusions as astrology and homeopathy, but not cold fusion, > where the most serious advocates are scientists, who certainly know their > differential equations. > It's about pseudoscience in general, and he cites cold fusion specifically. > > Why would anyone mention cold fusion in 2011, and raise P & F as the > example, while neglecting Rossi? That's really bizarre. > > My guess is that he knows it will irk the believers even more if he ignores Rossi, than if he dumps on him. It seems to be working.
Re: [Vo]:Bob Park is back!
I have kept Park informed about the Rossi story for, say the first 3 months see papers about Skeptics on my blog. He did not answer after a while. He is not living in an ivory tower so he must know- but perhaps cannot decide what to do with the story. It is difficult to dismiss or to accept Rossi completely- he is a highly unusual case. The netire story is strange and Bob is an over-eighty. Peter On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 2:16 AM, Joshua Cude wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:37 PM, Charles Hope < > lookslikeiwasri...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> It's not relevant, because his criticism is against innumeracy, which >> applies to such delusions as astrology and homeopathy, but not cold fusion, >> where the most serious advocates are scientists, who certainly know their >> differential equations. >> > > It's about pseudoscience in general, and he cites cold fusion specifically. > > > >> >> Why would anyone mention cold fusion in 2011, and raise P & F as the >> example, while neglecting Rossi? That's really bizarre. >> >> > My guess is that he knows it will irk the believers even more if he > ignores Rossi, than if he dumps on him. It seems to be working. > > > -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Bob Park is back!
The jocular way in which the CF pros and cons joust reminds me of the old story about the commedians' club that met monthly for a hearty meal and joke sharing, until after a few years they had all their jokes numbered, so they could just call out the number to reap some laughter... a guest watched this going on, and noticed one guy called out a number, but no one laughed -- so he asked his table neighbor about this, and got this answer, "Oh, him? -- Some people just can't tell a joke..." On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Peter Gluck wrote: > I have kept Park informed about the Rossi story > for, say the first 3 months see papers about Skeptics on my blog. He did not > answer after a while. He is not living in an ivory tower so he must know- > but perhaps cannot decide what to do with the story. It is difficult to > dismiss or to accept Rossi completely- he is a highly unusual case. The > netire story is strange and Bob is an over-eighty. > Peter > > > On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 2:16 AM, Joshua Cude wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:37 PM, Charles Hope >> wrote: >>> >>> It's not relevant, because his criticism is against innumeracy, which >>> applies to such delusions as astrology and homeopathy, but not cold fusion, >>> where the most serious advocates are scientists, who certainly know their >>> differential equations. >> >> >> It's about pseudoscience in general, and he cites cold fusion >> specifically. >> >> >>> >>> >>> Why would anyone mention cold fusion in 2011, and raise P & F as the >>> example, while neglecting Rossi? That's really bizarre. >>> >> >> My guess is that he knows it will irk the believers even more if he >> ignores Rossi, than if he dumps on him. It seems to be working. >> >> > > > > -- > Dr. Peter Gluck > Cluj, Romania > http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com >
Re: [Vo]:Bob Park is back!
>From Josh: > My guess is that he knows it will irk the believers even more if he ignores > Rossi, than if he dumps on him. It seems to be working. Keep guessing Joshua. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
