Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
Jones Beene wrote: *From:* Stephen A. Lawrence Let me remind these John Galt, Rush Bimbo wannabes that if the Christ were alive today - he most assuredly would not only be strongly socialistic, much more strongly to the left than anyone in the Obama camp, but closer to full Communistic in his economic leanings and in I disagree with you Jones. The essence of any of the varieties of socialist regimes is the use of the power of the state, ie, force. This is anathema to the Bible. Richard Macaulay are G-d fearers, and we both support free market economics. The vast majority of people whose faith is based on the Bible are conservative. Socialism is, IMHO, an attempt on the part of sinful man to reproduce the sort of world order that the Bible talks about. That's why it has never worked, and never will work. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
- Original Message - From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net Date: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 10:43 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt? Not only that, Christ would shudder at those mindless bigots, like the business owner of a previous posting, who express the sentiment that I got mine, so why should I help my brothers in need? The boss also sounds like the only pleasure he gets out of life is making money. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
grok blathered: Gawd... if I got a slip of Monopoly money for every time I've had socialism/communism -- or capitalism -- patiently explained to me (or not) by a petit-bourgeois, I'd never have to buy toilet paper ever again... Typical troll. Insult the senders -- petit-bourgeois is usually considered an insult -- and spout some buzz words but don't answer any arguments. Troll, you've just joined my kill file. (Yup, I've got one for Vortex; only one or two other folks in it, and none of them are currently regular posters.) Grok's posts are all noise, no content. If arguments were presented by Grok, his posts might be interesting; there is a lot to be said on the side of socialism. But Grok posts no arguments. Perhaps Grok doesn't know the arguments in favor of socialism. (Of course, such arguments are entirely off-topic for Vortex so I'm not going to start down that path.) Be that as it may, Grok is a troll, pure and simple: A troll sends easy to produce messages with provocative claims and no reasoned arguments in an effort to get a rise out of people. It's very easy to do, because leaving out the reasoned arguments means the emails can be churned out without thought, care, or much of anything else. The folks who are hooked, on the other hand, typically waste large amounts of time coming up with reasoned arguments to refute the unreasoned and unsupported statements spouted by the troll. It's a situation where the reasoning people lose big. The fish works very hard to catch up with the lure which is being dragged through the water on the line put out by the fisherman who is sitting on a boat trolling... and the fish never can win. *plonk* Stick to tinkering in your garages, guys. Stick to the politics groups, troll. -- grok. As the smoke cleared, John Berry aethe...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out:
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
Thanks, Robin. I like your analysis and I don't recall ever seeing it stated that way before. mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to John Berry's message of Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:05:35 +1300: Hi, I find it incomprehensible that anyone could seriously support communism/socialism and actually be talking about the same thing that created some of the greatest atrocities that have ever occurred and been so dysfunctional as to then fall part. So if that is not what you mean, if you are not championing the murder and oppression of humanity then say so. There are many positive examples of something that could be termed positive examples of socialism in the west, socialistic health care practiced in most places seems more attractive than the capitalistic version in the US being just one example and you don't need to watch Michael Moore's Sicko to recognize it. [snip] There is a trap that almost everyone falls into. It is the assumption that the situation is dipolar, when actually it is quadrupolar. Rather than just left and right there is also an up and a down, or perhaps a better analogy is the 4 points of the compass. If East and West are collectivism and capitalism, and North and South are totalitarianism and anarchy, then all forms of society fall somewhere on the plane thus described. IOW, there is an economic axis (E-W) and an order (or control) axis (N-S). The worst atrocities appear to be committed by peoples that tend toward the N-S extremes. The most prosperous and happiest societies tend toward the centre. In the N-S direction, you need some measure of control, but not so much as to stifle the individual. In the E-W direction you need freely flowing trade, with some government interference in some cases. Sigh... I can't resist throwing my 25 cents into the fray. Regarding stifling the individual ... It is, unfortunately, the gap between rich and poor which drives people to work hard to become rich -- it's that gap which drives them to work harder than the bare minimum needed to maintain their current lifestyle. Consequently it is exactly the inequity of capitalist society which makes it work so well, in economic terms. If you eliminate the gap, you eliminate the incentives at the same time. Conversely if you allow people to lock out others from climbing above their current stratum you also eliminate the incentive to work harder than the bare minimum needed to just get by. This one of the reasons monopolies and hereditary landlords are both bad. Unfortunately there's nothing fair or moral about capitalism and, from a utilitarian point of view, it's not clear that unbridled capitalism comes anywhere near maximizing total happiness (to put it mildly). I've long felt that socialism has the moral high ground, in terms of fairness and just generally being pretty good for more people. But if you want economic efficiency, what you probably need is laissez faire capitalism combined with strong antitrust laws and draconian inheritance taxes. (You need that last one to prevent the rise of hereditary landlords, who provided much of the impetus for Karl Marx's view of the world. Hereditary landlords are leeches on the body of a capitalist economy, as Marx recognized, but to get rid of a leech it is not necessary to kill the patient.) Anyhow this is totally off topic, and I send far too much stuff to Vortex which is off topic already, so I won't be responding again on this thread. The arguments I just gave are certainly no more than half baked but I'm not going to try to bake them fully in this forum. By trying to see everything as only E-W, the economic aspects are frequently confused with the order aspects. To take two examples from the real world, China and the US, I would say that China is currently approaching the centre on the E-W axis, from the collectivist direction, but is still rather strongly totalitarian on the N-S axis. With the new administration in Washington, the US is approaching the centre in the E-W direction from the capitalistic side. In the N-S direction, it isn't yet clear (to me) what direction the new administration is going in, but the previous administration was clearly going away from the centre in the totalitarian direction. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
From: Stephen A. Lawrence Thanks, Robin. I like your analysis and I don't recall ever seeing it stated that way before. Let me second that. Robin seems to be the only commentator who has looked at this situation intelligently. But why isn't this thread labeled as off-topic? I find it most curious - that the right (aka the religious right) in its efforts to assert the Rand or the Raw-Capitalist perspective - has now taken the *anti-Christian* road. They have dropped all pretense at brotherly love and are full speed ahead on the greed-is-good freeway to Hell. What a change of direction, no? Let me remind these John Galt, Rush Bimbo wannabes that if the Christ were alive today - he most assuredly would not only be strongly socialistic, much more strongly to the left than anyone in the Obama camp, but closer to full Communistic in his economic leanings and in his teachings. The 'right' conveniently forgets the so-called moral underpinnings that helped them elect the root cause of our problems - in these latest flights of perverted rhetoric. How quickly the forget. Not only that, Christ would shudder at those mindless bigots, like the business owner of a previous posting, who express the sentiment that I got mine, so why should I help my brothers in need? ... absolutely disgraceful sentiments spewing forth from the far-right these days. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: But why isn't this thread labeled as off-topic? Look at the original message. John Galt was the fictional inventor of a free energy engine. ;-) Terry
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
From: Terry Blanton But why isn't this thread labeled as off-topic? Look at the original message. John Galt was the fictional inventor of a free energy engine. ;-) Aha... OK I had forgotten that it was 'free energy'... BTW here is what Wiki has to say about Galt's motor John Galt invented a new type of electrical apparatus described in the book as a motor. This motor is revolutionary because it uses static electricity from the atmosphere as its main source of energy, requiring only a small amount of conventional fuel to run the conversion mechanism. The motor is described as super-efficient, and capable of revolutionizing the industry of the world. This approximates a perpetual motion machine of the second kind, a machine which spontaneously converts thermal energy into mechanical work (versus conventional heat engines, which convert thermal energy into mechanical work by transferring thermal energy from one reservoir to another). The theory is that the power is drawn from the environment. The book gives the source as static electricity from the air, and suggests that a new physics was necessary to tap it. Additionally, the motor could be seen as a metaphor... [side note] The curious thing is that we may be on the cusp of something similar in 2009. ... more on Fictional technology Because the book centers on industrial capitalism, Ayn Rand mentions many technologies throughout the book. In addition to normal technologies, she introduces several fictional inventions, including refractor rays (Gulch mirage), Rearden Metal, a sonic death ray (Project X), motors powered by static electricity, and a sophisticated electrical torture device. The depiction of progress coming in leaps and bounds at the hands of heroic entrepreneurs is similar to Joseph Schumpeter's theory of Creative destruction (expressed in Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy). Rearden metal Rearden metal is a fictitious metal alloy invented by Hank Rearden. It is lighter and stronger than traditional steel, and is to steel what steel was to iron. It is described as greenish-blue. Among its ingredients are iron and copper, two metals seldom found together in real-world alloys. Initially, no one is willing to use Rearden metal due to an unsupported but nonetheless damaging report by the State Science Institute which implies the metal is weak and prone to breaking. The introduction of the metal is seen as potentially damaging to the already established steel industries. Dagny Taggart, regardless of the public opinion, places an order for Rearden metal when she needs rails to rebuild the Rio Norte Line which is in disrepair. Once the metal is proven in the Rio Norte Line, the looters seek both to place it on the market for everyone, and to deny it to the industrialists who would make the most profitable use of it. Later, the formula for the metal itself is extorted by way of blackmail from Rearden and dubbed Miracle Metal. Rearden Metal and the plot concerning its fate in Atlas Shrugged are strikingly similar[11] to a series of 1930's Little Orphan Annie strips created by Harold Gray. According to columnist Brian Doherty: One Annie storyline [Comic historian Brian] Schwartz described makes you wonder whether Ayn Rand had been reading the funnies with notepad in hand in the 1930s, when you think about Atlas Shrugged's Rearden metal: Gray followed his pro-millionaire saga with a remarkably full-throated antiunion story line. In it, Annie befriends a homeless scientist, Eli Eon, inventor of Eonite, a cheap, easy-to-produce, indestructible material. Warbucks envisions it ending the Depression. Millions will work to mass-produce it, creating materials for housing that millions more will build. A corrupt union, led by John L. Lewis look-alike Claude Claptrap and liberal, long-haired journalist Horatio Hack, demands Warbucks give Eonite “to the pee-pul” or they’ll strike. Their workers burn down Warbucks’s factory (he hadn’t gotten around to building it out of Eonite yet), killing Eon. The secret of Eonite, and to ending the Depression, dies with him. Project X Project X, also known as Project Xylophone, is an invention of the scientists at the State Science Institute, requiring tons of Rearden metal. It is a sonic weapon, capable of destroying everything in a 100-mile radius. The scientists claim that the project will be used to preserve peace and squash rebellion. The mechanism is destroyed towards the end of the book, and emits a sonic pulse that destroys everything within a hundred mile radius, including Cuffy Meigs and Dr. Stadler, as well as half of the Taggart Bridge, which spanned the Mississippi River, and was, effectively, the lifeline of New York City. Rand also mentioned technologies that were unavailable at the time, but which have since been invented. Examples are voice activated door locks (Gulch power station), and palm-activated door locks (Galt's NY lab).
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 11:28 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: The theory is that the power is drawn from the environment. The book gives the source as static electricity from the air, and suggests that a new physics was necessary to tap it. Additionally, the motor could be seen as a metaphor... [side note] The curious thing is that we may be on the cusp of something similar in 2009.1 Thanks for bringing the thread back on topic. :-) Of course you are familiar with the Thestatica, eh? http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Methernitha/Thestatica/index.html The Swiss cult could be exactly where John Galt is hiding: http://www.methernitha.com/English/english.htm Terry
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
Several youtube vids, here's one: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4455951993961148210 On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 11:28 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: The theory is that the power is drawn from the environment. The book gives the source as static electricity from the air, and suggests that a new physics was necessary to tap it. Additionally, the motor could be seen as a metaphor... [side note] The curious thing is that we may be on the cusp of something similar in 2009.1 Thanks for bringing the thread back on topic. :-) Of course you are familiar with the Thestatica, eh? http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Methernitha/Thestatica/index.html The Swiss cult could be exactly where John Galt is hiding: http://www.methernitha.com/English/english.htm Terry
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
I think that it is clear to everyone that socialism, communism in anything like the form that we have seen in the past is not what anyone is talking about, not even the theory/ideals of Marxism would have any fans. However something else that is differentiated from current so called capitalism or communism or any other type of ism would be desirable. No what I am talking about doesn't have a name but it is more social and so does sound a bit like socialism. And though I am talking about my own concept that I have developed I am sure that others when they speak positively about socialism have something much more like what I have in mind than anything resembling socialism. Rather I think that your remark is more of a troll as I believe you know that full well. The relative success of democrats/left/liberals as leaders of countries and of developers of businesses as already mentioned is what is meant not anything resembling communism. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 6:31 PM, Rick Monteverde r...@highsurf.com wrote: This is a troll, right? Glorious examples of Socialism's successes please? Thought so. -Original Message- From: grok [mailto:g...@resist.ca] Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 6:05 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt? -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: With regard to both energy and the economy those bumper stickers should ask: Where is John Galt when we need him? Ayn Rand gave us John Galt in fiction. Reality hands us Bernie Madoff. No one does more harm to capitalism than capitalists. - Jed I really hate to break this to people here, but the future has *always* been with Socialism -- and that includes our glorious energy future as well. And some people can rant against this all they want, invoking their rabid individualist ideology or whatever -- but that doesn't make what I've just said any the less necessary as what we must aim for. And we can seetoday, too, where individualism(sic) gets us, for that matter... - -- grok. - -- *** FULL-SPECTRUM DOMINANCE! *** * BOYCOTT BOURGEOIS MASS-MEDIA: * McNews: UNfair UNbalanced * * Get mediaworx for your group/Internet/pirate tv/radio station! * Critical endorsement only Most sites need donations *** * http://satellite.indymedia.org North American Indymedia Newsreal * * http://newsreal.indymedia.de European Indymedia Newsreal * * http://www.outfoxed.orgOutfoxed AFSC Video * * http://www.afsc.org/resources/video-film.htm Lending Library * * http://www.unionist.com/song.htm Labor Song of the Week * * http://www.mirafilms.org Mira Films * * http://www.canofun.com/videoclips.asp Can o' Fun video clips * * HEY, KIDS!: JUST SAY *NO* TO THE DRAFT! * GPG fingerprint = 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJoCY1Xo3EtEYbt3ERAn0+AJ0WGYt2/SyTWJp1kspoHudqphtp9ACg1i/n EBAHg9MlDUiSeposPNiaQkk= =7KGL -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Berry aethe...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: I think that it is clear to everyone that socialism, communism in anything like the form that we have seen in the past is not what anyone is talking about, not even the theory/ideals of Marxism would have any fans. List hypocrisy and trolling for Ayn Rand aside -- guess what? Reality doesn't much care what you and your friends think, fella. You're just regurgitating decades of brainwashing, AFAIC. Doesn't make what you say the least true. So what if millions of [ex-]middle-class suburban drones agree with you? They're grasping at straws, right about now. They'll believe anything in their (whipped-up) hysteria. Even fascism. Which is the immediate goal of the Rightwing of the U.S. ruling-class, actually... You north americans and brits are about to find out the very real limits of capitalism -- and all its support structures (like your totalitarian mass-propaganda media, for instance). And liberals and even neocon- fascists can burble-on about the new green economy all they want, too: your very REAL collective problem _remains_ the capitalist mode of production itself -- as the entire Planet has just found out, and can clearly see for itself right now. 'Atlantis' indeed... Beam me up. - -- grok. - -- *** FULL-SPECTRUM DOMINANCE! *** * BOYCOTT BOURGEOIS MASS-MEDIA* RSS/XML newsfeeds from around * * Use these links in RSS readers * the planet: Who needs CNN/Fox? * Critical endorsement only Most sites need donations * http://southafrica.indymedia.org/newswire.rss Azania IndyMedia * * http://sopsy.com/rss/empireNotesEmpire Notes * * http://www.dominionpaper.ca/index.rdf The Dominion * *** Only *Dialog* Is Truly Free Speech *** GPG fingerprint = 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJopZOXo3EtEYbt3ERAopqAKDWnzuZGeiLEm4NmceWO1Zf9jhxhQCdEnfg s0+mR6D/6Se1RLbRTZ6bkxY= =FVdd -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
Hey, you're right: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0480239/ For a 2011 release date, it seems a bit early to start the ads, however. Terry On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 11:26 AM, trevsta...@aol.com wrote: I read that Brad Pitt and Agela Jolie are huge fans of Atlas Shrugged and they have brought the rights to make the movie and will do so. That may be the reason for the bumper stickers. Trevor Need a job? Find an employment agency near you.
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
Grok sez: ... You north americans and brits are about to find out the very real limits of capitalism ... Seems to me that as the smoke cleared Grok roared loudly in his efforts of coming off as an enlightened educated individual. Ok, Grok, since it would appear that you wish to continue hiding behind the handle of Michael Valentine Smith show us your stuff, water brother. What's your ultimate solution? It would help to be a tad more specific than simply giving us a pat label, like socialism. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
grok wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Berry aethe...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: I think that it is clear to everyone that socialism, communism in anything like the form that we have seen in the past is not what anyone is talking about, not even the theory/ideals of Marxism would have any fans. List hypocrisy and trolling for Ayn Rand aside -- guess what? Reality doesn't much care what you and your friends think, fella. I really hate to break this to people here, but the future has *always* been with Socialism -- Grok, You are, IMHO, either totally misguided, or one sick individual. socialism's agenda is the destruction of the individual. What I liked about Randian Philosophy was the celebration of the triumph of the individual against the collective. Even fascism. Which is the immediate goal of the Rightwing of the U.S. ruling-class, actually... What you ignore is that fascism is socialism with private ownership. It is a more efficient production system, but it has no difference fundamentally between fascism and socialism. Both destroy the individual for the good of the collective. You north americans and brits are about to find out the very real limits of capitalism -- and all its support structures (like your totalitarian mass-propaganda media, Calling the economic system in America and Britain capitalism may fit with your agenda Grok, but the truth is that neither country has had free enterprise capitalism in the last 100 years. for instance). And liberals and even neocon- fascists can burble-on about the new green economy all they want, too: your very REAL collective problem _remains_ the capitalist mode of production itself -- People have certain wants and needs, the limited amount of free enterprise that we have here meets those needs much better than the collectivized system that the Russians had. as the entire Planet has just found out, and can clearly see for itself right now. The entire planet is riddled with collectivism, where does this place where capitalism is practiced exist? What is it that the entire planet has found out? The fact that collectivism has failed every time it's been tried clearly isn't one of them. This misguided idea is apparently the basis of your belief that America is particular is a bastion of free enterprise capitalism. You are right, we have a ruling elite, Oligarchy, which is promoting the sort of dystopia which Orwell and Huxley wrote about in 1984 and Brave New World. If you truely believe that this is a good thing, then you are indeed sick. 'Atlantis' indeed...Beam me up. Another interesting comment. You may have heard that certain Christians believe that one of these days a trumpet is going to blow, and they are going to vanish. Well I'm one of them. That's why I'm not just too concerned about the world's continuing to deterioration. The main reason is that I've realized over the past 1/2 century that there's nothing I can do about it. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
I find it incomprehensible that anyone could seriously support communism/socialism and actually be talking about the same thing that created some of the greatest atrocities that have ever occurred and been so dysfunctional as to then fall part. So if that is not what you mean, if you are not championing the murder and oppression of humanity then say so. There are many positive examples of something that could be termed positive examples of socialism in the west, socialistic health care practiced in most places seems more attractive than the capitalistic version in the US being just one example and you don't need to watch Michael Moore's Sicko to recognize it. On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 1:27 AM, grok g...@resist.ca wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Berry aethe...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: I think that it is clear to everyone that socialism, communism in anything like the form that we have seen in the past is not what anyone is talking about, not even the theory/ideals of Marxism would have any fans. List hypocrisy and trolling for Ayn Rand aside -- guess what? Reality doesn't much care what you and your friends think, fella. You're just regurgitating decades of brainwashing, AFAIC. Doesn't make what you say the least true. So what if millions of [ex-]middle-class suburban drones agree with you? They're grasping at straws, right about now. They'll believe anything in their (whipped-up) hysteria. Even fascism. Which is the immediate goal of the Rightwing of the U.S. ruling-class, actually... You north americans and brits are about to find out the very real limits of capitalism -- and all its support structures (like your totalitarian mass-propaganda media, for instance). And liberals and even neocon- fascists can burble-on about the new green economy all they want, too: your very REAL collective problem _remains_ the capitalist mode of production itself -- as the entire Planet has just found out, and can clearly see for itself right now. 'Atlantis' indeed... Beam me up. - -- grok. - -- *** FULL-SPECTRUM DOMINANCE! *** * BOYCOTT BOURGEOIS MASS-MEDIA* RSS/XML newsfeeds from around * * Use these links in RSS readers * the planet: Who needs CNN/Fox? * Critical endorsement only Most sites need donations * http://southafrica.indymedia.org/newswire.rss Azania IndyMedia * * http://sopsy.com/rss/empireNotesEmpire Notes * * http://www.dominionpaper.ca/index.rdf The Dominion * *** Only *Dialog* Is Truly Free Speech *** GPG fingerprint = 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJopZOXo3EtEYbt3ERAopqAKDWnzuZGeiLEm4NmceWO1Zf9jhxhQCdEnfg s0+mR6D/6Se1RLbRTZ6bkxY= =FVdd -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
I agree with John, However, there seems to be a basic misunderstanding about the difference between capitalism and socialism. Capitalism works because it is designed to allow each person to make decisions based on their own self interest. This is called freedom by people who use simple descriptions. For this system to work properly, rules have to be agreed to that encourage individual decisions that benefit society in general, rather than just a few people. Unfortunately, over the years, the rules have been slowly changed by the rich and powerful. We now see the result of these changes. We now need to restore the rules that have been lost. This is NOT socialism. In contrast, socialism imposes rules that are independent of personal choice. The rules force choices based on what the government wants. Some choices must be made at the top and this requirement operates without objection in all organizations and in various ways in all governments. The challenge is to find an efficient mixture of freedom and controlled behavior. Unfortunately, too many people in the US do not think clearly. Consequently, compromises are made that only benefit people who have the largest self-interest to protect. This is achieved by keeping the rest of society occupied by fighting among themselves over irrelevant issues like who is liberal or who is conservative, or by encouraging an attack of anything that is unwanted by calling it socialism. If you want to know who is to blame, just look at what is written here many times by people who have no understanding about how the world works. Regards, Ed On Feb 23, 2009, at 2:05 PM, John Berry wrote: I find it incomprehensible that anyone could seriously support communism/socialism and actually be talking about the same thing that created some of the greatest atrocities that have ever occurred and been so dysfunctional as to then fall part. So if that is not what you mean, if you are not championing the murder and oppression of humanity then say so. There are many positive examples of something that could be termed positive examples of socialism in the west, socialistic health care practiced in most places seems more attractive than the capitalistic version in the US being just one example and you don't need to watch Michael Moore's Sicko to recognize it. On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 1:27 AM, grok g...@resist.ca wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Berry aethe...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: I think that it is clear to everyone that socialism, communism in anything like the form that we have seen in the past is not what anyone is talking about, not even the theory/ideals of Marxism would have any fans. List hypocrisy and trolling for Ayn Rand aside -- guess what? Reality doesn't much care what you and your friends think, fella. You're just regurgitating decades of brainwashing, AFAIC. Doesn't make what you say the least true. So what if millions of [ex-]middle-class suburban drones agree with you? They're grasping at straws, right about now. They'll believe anything in their (whipped-up) hysteria. Even fascism. Which is the immediate goal of the Rightwing of the U.S. ruling-class, actually... You north americans and brits are about to find out the very real limits of capitalism -- and all its support structures (like your totalitarian mass-propaganda media, for instance). And liberals and even neocon- fascists can burble-on about the new green economy all they want, too: your very REAL collective problem _remains_ the capitalist mode of production itself -- as the entire Planet has just found out, and can clearly see for itself right now. 'Atlantis' indeed... Beam me up. - -- grok. - -- *** FULL-SPECTRUM DOMINANCE! *** * BOYCOTT BOURGEOIS MASS-MEDIA* RSS/XML newsfeeds from around * * Use these links in RSS readers * the planet: Who needs CNN/Fox? * Critical endorsement only Most sites need donations * http://southafrica.indymedia.org/newswire.rss Azania IndyMedia * * http://sopsy.com/rss/empireNotesEmpire Notes * * http://www.dominionpaper.ca/index.rdf The Dominion * *** Only *Dialog* Is Truly Free Speech *** GPG fingerprint = 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJopZOXo3EtEYbt3ERAopqAKDWnzuZGeiLEm4NmceWO1Zf9jhxhQCdEnfg s0+mR6D/6Se1RLbRTZ6bkxY= =FVdd -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
I agree with Edmund ;) On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: I agree with John, However, there seems to be a basic misunderstanding about the difference between capitalism and socialism. Capitalism works because it is designed to allow each person to make decisions based on their own self interest. This is called freedom by people who use simple descriptions. For this system to work properly, rules have to be agreed to that encourage individual decisions that benefit society in general, rather than just a few people. Unfortunately, over the years, the rules have been slowly changed by the rich and powerful. We now see the result of these changes. We now need to restore the rules that have been lost. This is NOT socialism. In contrast, socialism imposes rules that are independent of personal choice. The rules force choices based on what the government wants. Some choices must be made at the top and this requirement operates without objection in all organizations and in various ways in all governments. The challenge is to find an efficient mixture of freedom and controlled behavior. Unfortunately, too many people in the US do not think clearly. Consequently, compromises are made that only benefit people who have the largest self-interest to protect. This is achieved by keeping the rest of society occupied by fighting among themselves over irrelevant issues like who is liberal or who is conservative, or by encouraging an attack of anything that is unwanted by calling it socialism. If you want to know who is to blame, just look at what is written here many times by people who have no understanding about how the world works. Regards, Ed
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
In reply to John Berry's message of Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:05:35 +1300: Hi, I find it incomprehensible that anyone could seriously support communism/socialism and actually be talking about the same thing that created some of the greatest atrocities that have ever occurred and been so dysfunctional as to then fall part. So if that is not what you mean, if you are not championing the murder and oppression of humanity then say so. There are many positive examples of something that could be termed positive examples of socialism in the west, socialistic health care practiced in most places seems more attractive than the capitalistic version in the US being just one example and you don't need to watch Michael Moore's Sicko to recognize it. [snip] There is a trap that almost everyone falls into. It is the assumption that the situation is dipolar, when actually it is quadrupolar. Rather than just left and right there is also an up and a down, or perhaps a better analogy is the 4 points of the compass. If East and West are collectivism and capitalism, and North and South are totalitarianism and anarchy, then all forms of society fall somewhere on the plane thus described. IOW, there is an economic axis (E-W) and an order (or control) axis (N-S). The worst atrocities appear to be committed by peoples that tend toward the N-S extremes. The most prosperous and happiest societies tend toward the centre. In the N-S direction, you need some measure of control, but not so much as to stifle the individual. In the E-W direction you need freely flowing trade, with some government interference in some cases. By trying to see everything as only E-W, the economic aspects are frequently confused with the order aspects. To take two examples from the real world, China and the US, I would say that China is currently approaching the centre on the E-W axis, from the collectivist direction, but is still rather strongly totalitarian on the N-S axis. With the new administration in Washington, the US is approaching the centre in the E-W direction from the capitalistic side. In the N-S direction, it isn't yet clear (to me) what direction the new administration is going in, but the previous administration was clearly going away from the centre in the totalitarian direction. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
John Berry wrote: There are many positive examples of something that could be termed positive examples of socialism in the west, socialistic health care practiced in most places seems more attractive than the capitalistic version in the US being just one example and you don't need to watch Michael Moore's Sicko to recognize it. In the real world, all economies in all nations and cultures are a mixture of capitalism and socialism. Nowhere on earth does the fire department charge you to put out a fire in your house. Nowhere is every single road a privately owned toll road. In the past there have been some more extreme examples in both directions. In Edo Japan fire departments were private, and when two companies responded to the same fire they sometimes spent more effort fighting one another over turf than putting out the fire. The private, capitalistic model for fire departments does not work well for practical reasons. Winston Churchill favored socialized medicine and compared it to fire fighting. Firemen do not stop and ask whose house is burning, and they do not charge the victim for their services, so hospitals should not either. The key point is that no one chooses to be sick (or to recover). There is no benefit to being sick. In short, it is an unmitigated and uncontrollable evil, like having your house burn down. (There are some things you can do to prevent your house from burning down such as not using kerosene heaters; and by the same token there are some things you can do to preserve your health, but these methods are not foolproof.) There are many other reasons that favor socialized medicine more strongly than socializing other sectors of the economy. Three related developments have strengthened the appeal of socialized medicine in recent decades: 1. The cost of medical treatment has skyrocketed because of improvements in technology. Many people who would have died cheaply years ago can now be saved at great expense. 2. Because medicine is now more effective, people want it more than they used to. Most people who are desperately ill will pay huge sums to live. They will bankrupt their families to save themselves or their children, or even elderly parents in some cases. In the past you could not do this even if you wanted to. It wasn't an option. A middle class person could afford to buy all the medial help he could get, because there wasn't much on offer. 3. Doctors, insurance companies and others have taken advantage of this situation to raise their rates. In the 1930s, medical students were told that if they wanted to become wealthy they should marry money. Doctors were expected to scrape by on a respectable but lower-middle-class salary. (The same is true of university professors, by the way. At Cornell, most of the professors' wives worked in the 1930s, to make ends meet, whereas nowadays profs. make huge salaries.) When doctors could not do much for patients they could not charge much, either. Now they have the power of life and death over use, and if they are left of their own devices they will eventually swallow up 20% then 30% then 50% of the GDP. The situation is obviously out of control. The proof of that is that there is no correlation between the amount of money different societies spend on medicine and the results. Europeans and Japanese spend far less per capita, and a far lower fraction of their GDP, but their treatment and outcomes are superior to the US for middle-class and working-class people (90% of the population). By most measures such as longevity, infant mortality, chronic disease, obesity, diabetes, primary care access, end of life, quality of life and so on, the US is dead last in the developed world, and well behind places like Albania and Cuba. People who have not lived overseas or personally experienced healthcare in Europe or Japan (as I have) cannot imagine how screwed up our system is, or how easily it might be improved. The movie Sicko barely scratched the surface. I know several people in the U.S. whose lives have been ruined and families bankrupted by illnesses such as stroke and cancer. I also know many people in Japan who had these diseases and were either cured or cared for to the end at no cost to the family, with far less trauma and heartbreak for everyone, and far superior nursing and daily care. In short, the competitive, self-limiting mechanisms that normally keep prices reasonable and prevent one sector of the economy from taking over do not work in medicine. Every sector of the economy, every product, and every consumer is unique. The generalized laws of economics are only approximations and do not apply well to some goods and services. They hardly apply at all to medicine. The notion that ordinary people will shop around to find a cure for disease is ludicrous. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Gawd... if I got a slip of Monopoly money for every time I've had socialism/communism -- or capitalism -- patiently explained to me (or not) by a petit-bourgeois, I'd never have to buy toilet paper ever again... Stick to tinkering in your garages, guys. - -- grok. As the smoke cleared, John Berry aethe...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: I agree with Edmund ;) On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: I agree with John, However, there seems to be a basic misunderstanding about the difference between capitalism and socialism. Capitalism works because it is designed to allow each person to make decisions based on their own self interest. This is called freedom by people who use simple descriptions. For this system to work properly, rules have to be agreed to that encourage individual decisions that benefit society in general, rather than just a few people. Unfortunately, over the years, the rules have been slowly changed by the rich and powerful. We now see the result of these changes. We now need to restore the rules that have been lost. This is NOT socialism. In contrast, socialism imposes rules that are independent of personal choice. The rules force choices based on what the government wants. Some choices must be made at the top and this requirement operates without objection in all organizations and in various ways in all governments. The challenge is to find an efficient mixture of freedom and controlled behavior. Unfortunately, too many people in the US do not think clearly. Consequently, compromises are made that only benefit people who have the largest self-interest to protect. This is achieved by keeping the rest of society occupied by fighting among themselves over irrelevant issues like who is liberal or who is conservative, or by encouraging an attack of anything that is unwanted by calling it socialism. If you want to know who is to blame, just look at what is written here many times by people who have no understanding about how the world works. Regards, Ed - -- ** FULL-SPECTRUM DOMINANCE! *BOYCOTT BOURGEOIS* Get your news analysis * * MASS-MEDIA:* from the Best on the Web * Critical endorsement only Most sites need donations * http://www.opensecrets.org Opensecrets.org * * http://www.flashpoints.net Flashpoints Radio * * http://www.snowshoefilms.com Snowshoe Films * * http://www.911inquiry.org International Inquiry Into 911 * * http://www.unknownnews.net Unknown News * * http://www.unknownnews.net/relalt.html Reliable Alterns. WebRing * * http://www.projectcensored.org Project Censored * * Weapons of Mass Destruction?? LOOK INSIDE THE U.S.A.! * GPG fingerprint = 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJoyLvXo3EtEYbt3ERAv+EAKCt/LB6ZznH2oIUElv5uIQy9gk/1gCfS+js GyZbBLz8Yv2Nw1nh+HDfPOo= =/U/p -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
grok wrote: Gawd... if I got a slip of Monopoly money for every time I've had socialism/communism -- or capitalism -- patiently explained to me (or not) by a petit-bourgeois, I'd never have to buy toilet paper ever again... We are not all petit-bourgeois, and it is possible that some of us know more about some aspects of this situation than you do. For example, I probably know more about medical care in Japan than you do. It is a mistake to judge an idea by judging the background or economic status the person who presents it, rather than by considering the merits of the idea itself. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 11:14 AM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to John Berry's message of Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:05:35 +1300: Hi, I find it incomprehensible that anyone could seriously support communism/socialism and actually be talking about the same thing that created some of the greatest atrocities that have ever occurred and been so dysfunctional as to then fall part. So if that is not what you mean, if you are not championing the murder and oppression of humanity then say so. There are many positive examples of something that could be termed positive examples of socialism in the west, socialistic health care practiced in most places seems more attractive than the capitalistic version in the US being just one example and you don't need to watch Michael Moore's Sicko to recognize it. [snip] There is a trap that almost everyone falls into. It is the assumption that the situation is dipolar, when actually it is quadrupolar. Rather than just left and right there is also an up and a down, or perhaps a better analogy is the 4 points of the compass. If East and West are collectivism and capitalism, and North and South are totalitarianism and anarchy, then all forms of society fall somewhere on the plane thus described. IOW, there is an economic axis (E-W) and an order (or control) axis (N-S). Indeed, the other day i was looking at: http://www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html The worst atrocities appear to be committed by peoples that tend toward the N-S extremes. I consider the N extreme to be the ideal, though one that people must be ready for, but I am looking at the north end as being labeled libertarian not anarchist which has different connotations. (Libertarian does not bring up images of Sid Viscous and graffiti) I am not sure what atrocities you consider to have been committed by those on the north end of the scale. The most prosperous and happiest societies tend toward the centre. Center is most practical, however it misses the point somewhat in that just because things average out to center does not mean that the correct answer is always the center, sometimes the answer is an extreme. It's like driving a car, the steering wheel position will average out while driving to be centered but if you want to get anywhere you are going to have to turn tight corners. In the N-S direction, you need some measure of control, but not so much as to stifle the individual. In the E-W direction you need freely flowing trade, with some government interference in some cases. By trying to see everything as only E-W, the economic aspects are frequently confused with the order aspects. To take two examples from the real world, China and the US, I would say that China is currently approaching the centre on the E-W axis, from the collectivist direction, but is still rather strongly totalitarian on the N-S axis. Indeed. With the new administration in Washington, the US is approaching the centre in the E-W direction from the capitalistic side. In the N-S direction, it isn't yet clear (to me) what direction the new administration is going in, but the previous administration was clearly going away from the centre in the totalitarian direction. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: grok wrote: Gawd... if I got a slip of Monopoly money for every time I've had socialism/communism -- or capitalism -- patiently explained to me (or not) by a petit-bourgeois, I'd never have to buy toilet paper ever again... We are not all petit-bourgeois, and it is possible that some of us know more about some aspects of this situation than you do. For example, I probably know more about medical care in Japan than you do. Actually, you most all seem quite petit-bourgeois to me -- mentality-wise anyway (and for that matter: aren't all U.S. workers middle-class these days..?) And if you are not being exploited for your surplus-value -- well, all the more so. As for what you or I or anyone does or doesn't know specifically: that's somewhat of a non sequitur in this discussion, isn't it..? And for the record: I certainly don't pretend to be deeply knowledgable about Over-Unity, or much else in these technical fields. It is a mistake to judge an idea by judging the background or economic status the person who presents it, rather than by considering the merits of the idea itself. - Jed No, it's wrong to be ad hominem -- quite another thing. The class orientation of the speaker can -- and often is -- to-the-point. But it is in the nature of Late Capitalist U.S. culture to deny absolutely everything about class. - -- grok. - -- *** FULL-SPECTRUM DOMINANCE! *** * BOYCOTT BOURGEOIS MASS-MEDIA* RSS/XML newsfeeds from around * * Use these links in RSS readers * the planet: Who needs CNN/Fox? * Critical endorsement only Most sites need donations * http://rss.newstandardnews.net/envirohealth_1.xml Enviro Health* * http://cat.radicaldesigns.org/rssfeed.php Stop Caterpillar * * http://auto_sol.tao.ca/taxonomy/feed/or/135 Autonomy Solidarity* * http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/atom.xml CANNONFIRE * * http://www.indybay.org/syn/newswire.rssSF Bay Area Indymedia * *** When the banks do well you can be sure the people aren't *** GPG fingerprint = 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJo0DuXo3EtEYbt3ERApzEAKDLcQN8HB/mLfWf1qQQzohqRjFOWgCeI6Lc K/xl78X4fveXEkLf2+f7N3o= =5Fwq -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
grok wrote: Gawd... if I got a slip of Monopoly money for every time I've had socialism/communism -- or capitalism -- patiently explained to me (or not) by a petit-bourgeois, I'd never have to buy toilet paper ever again... Stick to tinkering in your garages, guys. Given how full of s-it you are Grok, that would talk a lot of T P. Any body who thinks that the world is a better place because of increasing socialist tinkering in the economy is either insane, or so full of chutzpah that he is experiencing a willful suspension of disbelief. IMHO, world would be a better place if we techies ran it, I doubt that even a committee of all of us could make a bigger mess of things than people with legal degrees have. Speaking of serendipity, Hugh Hewitt just had an investment guy on. He attributed the Stock Market's free fall to capital going on strike because of the crazy regulatory environment created by the Demoncratic controlled congress. Rather like Atlas Shrugged he continued. I'm Petite Bourgeois, and proud of it. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
In reply to John Berry's message of Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:13:40 +1300: Hi, [snip] I consider the N extreme to be the ideal, though one that people must be ready for, but I am looking at the north end as being labeled libertarian not anarchist which has different connotations. (Libertarian does not bring up images of Sid Viscous and graffiti) [snip] The extreme example of free will is a lawless society where everyone is free to do exactly as they please. This is anarchy by definition, and the closest example today that I can think of is Somalia. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
Well I guess that would be off the scale, those who hold it as a political ideology would assume that there is a system to keep people from harming each other or that the society did not contain dysfunction so not requiring any army/police/justice system to protect people On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 2:58 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to John Berry's message of Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:13:40 +1300: Hi, [snip] I consider the N extreme to be the ideal, though one that people must be ready for, but I am looking at the north end as being labeled libertarian not anarchist which has different connotations. (Libertarian does not bring up images of Sid Viscous and graffiti) [snip] The extreme example of free will is a lawless society where everyone is free to do exactly as they please. This is anarchy by definition, and the closest example today that I can think of is Somalia. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
- Original Message - From: John Berry aethe...@gmail.com Date: Monday, February 23, 2009 10:18 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt? Well I guess that would be off the scale, those who hold it as a politicalideology would assume that there is a system to keep people from harming each other or that the society did not contain dysfunction so not requiringany army/police/justice system to protect people On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 2:58 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to John Berry's message of Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:13:40 +1300: Hi, [snip] I consider the N extreme to be the ideal, though one that people must be ready for, but I am looking at the north end as being labeled libertarian not anarchist which has different connotations. (Libertarian does not bring up images of Sid Viscous and graffiti) [snip] The extreme example of free will is a lawless society where everyone is free to do exactly as they please. A state of anarchy would work only under ideal circumstances where all the participants are equally powerful from the outset. harry This is anarchy by definition, and the closest example today that I can think of is Somalia. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk Anarchy is always short lived, because
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
Terry Blanton wrote: Inventor of a free energy engine using static electricity (fiction). I am seeing bumper stickers with the subject title all over lately. Can't figure out why. ;-) People who have Who is John Galt? bumper stickers are devotees of the novelist Ayn Rand. When I was young and foolish, I was infatuated with Ms. Rand's ideas. Atheism is an integral part of her philosophy however, and I was already rejected the idea of a godless universe when I was exposed to her theories. Randian Philosophy (Objectivism) is more about the celebration of self (selfishness), and property rights, than F E machines, which are ancillary to the story. Rand contended that the people who drive the economic engine of the world would with draw their creative input, resulting in economic collapse. IMHO, she got it backwards, most people want to live well, and enjoy the other perks of business success, and will voluntarily work very hard in order to do so. What's bringing about the sort of economic collapse spoken of in Atlas Shrugged is the government, rather than vice versa, as Rand contended. Now that I think of it, some of the most successful people are big liberals. The people behind Goggle are proof of that. I wonder which one of us Ayn would have found more galling? --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
thomas malloy wrote: People who have Who is John Galt? bumper stickers are devotees of the novelist Ayn Rand ... What's bringing about the sort of economic collapse spoken of in Atlas Shrugged is the government ... Hi All, Our economic problems are primarily the result of theft encouraged by the federal govenment during the past 8 years. The Oil Gang almost had me convinced that it is possible to fool all of the people all of the time. Speaking of eye-openers, Russ Baker's agument in Family of Secrets that Nixon was toppled by a Bonesmen conspiracy led by Bush 41 is fascinating. A similar argument was made several years ago in Silent Coup from a very different point of view by Len Colodny and Robert Gettlin. Jack Smith
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
I read that Brad Pitt and Agela Jolie are huge fans of Atlas Shrugged and they have brought the rights to make the movie and will do so. That may be the reason for the bumper stickers. Trevor **Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agenciesncid=emlcntusyelp0003)
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
Taylor J. Smith wrote: thomas malloy wrote: People who have Who is John Galt? bumper Our economic problems are primarily the result of theft encouraged by the federal govenment during the past 8 years. Good point, C to C AM interviewed an investigative reporter. The thesis of his book is that Bush 43 ran a kleptocracy worthy of an African dictatorship. The Oil Gang almost had me convinced that it is possible to fool all of the people all of the time. Unfortunately, you only need to fool the majority, which they have continued to do. Speaking of eye-openers, Russ Baker's agument in Family of Secrets that Nixon was toppled by a Bonesmen conspiracy led by Bush 41 is fascinating. Well, they couldn't have done it without Nixon's help. A similar argument was made several years ago in Silent Coup from a very different point of view by Len Colodny and Robert Gettlin. IMHO, Bush 41 was complicit in the coup of 1963. In the early 20th century there was a venture capitalist named Herbert Walker. The story of how he financed the second Russian revolution and helped an obscure Austrian politician come to power in Germany, are detailed in the writings of Antony Sutton. The books, Wall Street and the Russian Revolution and Wall Street and the rise of the |Nazi's were available on line. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
RE: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
This is a troll, right? Glorious examples of Socialism's successes please? Thought so. -Original Message- From: grok [mailto:g...@resist.ca] Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 6:05 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt? -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: With regard to both energy and the economy those bumper stickers should ask: Where is John Galt when we need him? Ayn Rand gave us John Galt in fiction. Reality hands us Bernie Madoff. No one does more harm to capitalism than capitalists. - Jed I really hate to break this to people here, but the future has *always* been with Socialism -- and that includes our glorious energy future as well. And some people can rant against this all they want, invoking their rabid individualist ideology or whatever -- but that doesn't make what I've just said any the less necessary as what we must aim for. And we can seetoday, too, where individualism(sic) gets us, for that matter... - -- grok. - -- *** FULL-SPECTRUM DOMINANCE! *** * BOYCOTT BOURGEOIS MASS-MEDIA: * McNews: UNfair UNbalanced * * Get mediaworx for your group/Internet/pirate tv/radio station! * Critical endorsement only Most sites need donations *** * http://satellite.indymedia.org North American Indymedia Newsreal * * http://newsreal.indymedia.de European Indymedia Newsreal * * http://www.outfoxed.orgOutfoxed AFSC Video * * http://www.afsc.org/resources/video-film.htm Lending Library * * http://www.unionist.com/song.htm Labor Song of the Week * * http://www.mirafilms.org Mira Films * * http://www.canofun.com/videoclips.asp Can o' Fun video clips * * HEY, KIDS!: JUST SAY *NO* TO THE DRAFT! * GPG fingerprint = 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJoCY1Xo3EtEYbt3ERAn0+AJ0WGYt2/SyTWJp1kspoHudqphtp9ACg1i/n EBAHg9MlDUiSeposPNiaQkk= =7KGL -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
With regard to both energy and the economy those bumper stickers should ask: Where is John Galt when we need him? Ayn Rand gave us John Galt in fiction. Reality hands us Bernie Madoff. No one does more harm to capitalism than capitalists. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com mounted the barricade and roared out: With regard to both energy and the economy those bumper stickers should ask: Where is John Galt when we need him? Ayn Rand gave us John Galt in fiction. Reality hands us Bernie Madoff. No one does more harm to capitalism than capitalists. - Jed I really hate to break this to people here, but the future has *always* been with Socialism -- and that includes our glorious energy future as well. And some people can rant against this all they want, invoking their rabid individualist ideology or whatever -- but that doesn't make what I've just said any the less necessary as what we must aim for. And we can seetoday, too, where individualism(sic) gets us, for that matter... - -- grok. - -- *** FULL-SPECTRUM DOMINANCE! *** * BOYCOTT BOURGEOIS MASS-MEDIA: * McNews: UNfair UNbalanced * * Get mediaworx for your group/Internet/pirate tv/radio station! * Critical endorsement only Most sites need donations *** * http://satellite.indymedia.org North American Indymedia Newsreal * * http://newsreal.indymedia.de European Indymedia Newsreal * * http://www.outfoxed.orgOutfoxed AFSC Video * * http://www.afsc.org/resources/video-film.htm Lending Library * * http://www.unionist.com/song.htm Labor Song of the Week * * http://www.mirafilms.org Mira Films * * http://www.canofun.com/videoclips.asp Can o' Fun video clips * * HEY, KIDS!: JUST SAY *NO* TO THE DRAFT! * GPG fingerprint = 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJoCY1Xo3EtEYbt3ERAn0+AJ0WGYt2/SyTWJp1kspoHudqphtp9ACg1i/n EBAHg9MlDUiSeposPNiaQkk= =7KGL -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Fw: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
Hey Jed, Speaking of capital.. ever heard of this quasi-govt firm.. Maiden Lane 111.. ?? Richard http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29311015 As the collateral calls kept coming, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York announced in November it would create a separate company, dubbed Maiden Lane III, to help alleviate AIG's cash crunch caused by the credit-default swaps written by Financial Products. By buying up the underlying mortgage-related securities, the government freed Financial Products to terminate billions of dollars in credit-default swap contracts that had plagued AIG's balance sheet. So far, the government has poured more than $60 billion into the effort. With regard to both energy and the economy those bumper stickers should ask: Where is John Galt when we need him? Ayn Rand gave us John Galt in fiction. Reality hands us Bernie Madoff. No one does more harm to capitalism than capitalists. - Jed
Re: Fw: [Vo]:Who is John Galt?
Maiden Lane is in downtown Manhattan near Wall St. Terry On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 12:09 PM, R C Macaulay walha...@cvctx.com wrote: Hey Jed, Speaking of capital.. ever heard of this quasi-govt firm.. Maiden Lane 111.. ?? Richard http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29311015 As the collateral calls kept coming, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York announced in November it would create a separate company, dubbed Maiden Lane III, to help alleviate AIG's cash crunch caused by the credit-default swaps written by Financial Products. By buying up the underlying mortgage-related securities, the government freed Financial Products to terminate billions of dollars in credit-default swap contracts that had plagued AIG's balance sheet. So far, the government has poured more than $60 billion into the effort. With regard to both energy and the economy those bumper stickers should ask: Where is John Galt when we need him? Ayn Rand gave us John Galt in fiction. Reality hands us Bernie Madoff. No one does more harm to capitalism than capitalists. - Jed
[Vo]:Who is John Galt?
Inventor of a free energy engine using static electricity (fiction). I am seeing bumper stickers with the subject title all over lately. Can't figure out why. ;-) Terry
