Re: [Vo]: Coupled Protons and Directional Stability
Thanks for the interesting discussion Lou. I am not sure why my posting did not have paragraph separation as the source did. I used Word to write the posting with standard formatting that should have shown breaks when copied, but for some reason did not do so. Does anyone know why this technique did not perform this time? Your description of the series of protons working together is very much akin to what I was considering in my conception. In some ways this reminds me of a pinch mechanism of sorts since all of the effective current is flowing in one direction and their magnetic field should tend to concentrate them into a tighter beam. I wonder if the extended view of this mechanism into a cloud like structure would enhance the directional properties of the individual protons? If this occurs, then some of the projectile protons might be able to move more or less in a straight path toward a target nucleus with the ability to overcome the coulomb barrier as well as any small spatially oriented local magnetic fields. Your pictorial below suggests that the protons of the following chain add push to the head one. It will be interesting to determine how powerful this elastic connection is between them. Perhaps if enough protons work together it can become powerful. Another feature of the coupled protons would be their tendency to absorb strong forces applied to one of their members is we assume that the elastic connection is sufficiently resistive. I have been seeking a process that can retard the action of the strong force as a proton overcomes the coulomb barrier and is rapidly pulled toward its accepting nucleus. The action of a multitude of protons might be capable of this feat. The other interesting phenomena I seek is the modification of proton direction of motion by a strong magnetic field that is extensive in nature. I visualize this field as directing the protons toward collisions with nuclei as it is adjusted either intentionally or by accident. A well regulated system would hopefully direct the protons according to plan. Dave -Original Message- From: pagnucco pagnu...@htdconnect.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 31, 2012 12:34 am Subject: Re: [Vo]: Coupled Protons and Directional Stability David, Good questions. (However, to make your posts more readable, I suggest limiting your text lines to 75 characters, and using a paragraph format.) I believe that protons (or electrons) may move in coherent waves in nanostructures (or beams) that are strongly coupled permitting single particles to surmount much higher potential barriers than might be expected if one assumes that the particle can only use its kinetic energy to climb a potential hill - i.e., it behaves the same as in a vacuum. For example, I believe a single proton in the vacuum with velocity v, e.g., v --- p cannot surmount a barrier as high as the lead proton in a coherent, coupled proton row, all moving at the same velocity (v), e.g., v v v v v --- p --- p --- p --- --- p (A 3-dimensional funnel formation would deliver even more energy.) I am trying to work out some simple examples assuming just classical physics, with densities and velocities attainable in nanowires. It is not clear to me that this kind of analysis applies when translated to quantum field theory, but at least it gives some hints about what may be possible. I find it also interesting that axial collisions between proton and electron pairs may be head-on collisions since magnetic and coulomb forces will be 180 degrees opposite each other. Maybe, too, captures of inner (K-shell) electrons by protons in a nucleus could be analyzed by classical physics as a cross check for whether electron capture could be responsible for transmutations which may move atoms downward toward smaller atomic numbers. -- Lou Pagnucco David Roberson wrote: I asked the question in a previous post about thedirectional stability of a group of coupled protons but did not get sufficientresponse so I am attempting to rephrase. The stability of the directional characteristic of these nucleons is ofparamount importance if confirmed. There is a suggestion that many protons can work as a unit whenconfined to a nickel or similar crystal. If this is true, then perhaps an external or internal magnetic fieldmight be capable of modifying the direction of the entire group resulting inthe collision of one or more protons with nearby nickel nuclei. In this case fusion might occur when the LENRdevice sees a change in the field direction. This seems to be consistent with the observation that movement ofhydrogen protons by diffusion into the nickel crystal appears to enhance energyproduction. The motion of theseparticles would result in the modification of the instantaneous magnetic field. It has also been reported that LENR does not occur until acertain minimum temperature
RE: [Vo]: Coupled Protons and Directional Stability
Thanks, Mark This is an interesting way to model the nucleus. I wonder if there are any simulation tools that approximate charged paricle collisions with nuclei (or atoms) that run on PCs rather than super-computers. Probably, the task is too computationally intensive, but maybe a moderately accurate simulation may be possible. If you know of any, let me know. -- Lou Pagnucco MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote: Lou and DaveR: You might want to take a look at this article: The atomic nucleus: fissile liquid or molecule of life? http://phys.org/news/2012-07-atomic-nucleus-fissile-liquid-molecule.html -Mark -Original Message- From: pagnu...@htdconnect.com [mailto:pagnu...@htdconnect.com] Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 9:34 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Coupled Protons and Directional Stability David, Good questions. (However, to make your posts more readable, I suggest limiting your text lines to 75 characters, and using a paragraph format.) I believe that protons (or electrons) may move in coherent waves in nanostructures (or beams) that are strongly coupled permitting single particles to surmount much higher potential barriers than might be expected if one assumes that the particle can only use its kinetic energy to climb a potential hill - i.e., it behaves the same as in a vacuum. For example, I believe a single proton in the vacuum with velocity v, e.g., v --- p cannot surmount a barrier as high as the lead proton in a coherent, coupled proton row, all moving at the same velocity (v), e.g., v v v v v --- p --- p --- p --- --- p (A 3-dimensional funnel formation would deliver even more energy.) I am trying to work out some simple examples assuming just classical physics, with densities and velocities attainable in nanowires. It is not clear to me that this kind of analysis applies when translated to quantum field theory, but at least it gives some hints about what may be possible. I find it also interesting that axial collisions between proton and electron pairs may be head-on collisions since magnetic and coulomb forces will be 180 degrees opposite each other. Maybe, too, captures of inner (K-shell) electrons by protons in a nucleus could be analyzed by classical physics as a cross check for whether electron capture could be responsible for transmutations which may move atoms downward toward smaller atomic numbers. -- Lou Pagnucco David Roberson wrote: I asked the question in a previous post about thedirectional stability of a group of coupled protons but did not get sufficientresponse so I am attempting to rephrase. The stability of the directional characteristic of these nucleons is ofparamount importance if confirmed. There is a suggestion that many protons can work as a unit whenconfined to a nickel or similar crystal. If this is true, then perhaps an external or internal magnetic fieldmight be capable of modifying the direction of the entire group resulting inthe collision of one or more protons with nearby nickel nuclei. In this case fusion might occur when the LENRdevice sees a change in the field direction. This seems to be consistent with the observation that movement ofhydrogen protons by diffusion into the nickel crystal appears to enhance energyproduction. The motion of theseparticles would result in the modification of the instantaneous magnetic field. It has also been reported that LENR does not occur until acertain minimum temperature is reached. This quite possibly may be when the internal magnetic properties of thenickel degrade and external lines of force take over. A process such as this would tend to bedifficult to predict unless understood and hence we would interpret this as atough process to reproduce. So the big question is: how strong is the coupling effectwith regard to the maintenance of the motion vector of the protons that groupand how much force can one proton be given as it attempts to breech the coulombbarrier? Does anyone know of where thistype of information might be obtained? Is there an experiment that can be performed that demonstrates thesephenomena? The question about directional stiffness can be broken downinto one major effect. Do coupled protonshave a very strong tendency to keep moving in the same direction as dictated bythe group? For example, if the group ofprotons is moving in the X direction, will it take a very large force to makeone of these acquire a Y or Z component to its motion? Likewise, can one of these protons overcomethe coulomb barrier by borrowing propulsion from its partners? I am considering protons that are ââ¬Ådressedââ¬Â in a mannersimilar to the electrons that are activated by an energy source such as alaser. The electron coupling wasmentioned earlier in the vortex. Dave P.S. I am hoping to direct some energy toward a new subject. The climate change discussion is absorbing all
RE: [Vo]: Coupled Protons and Directional Stability
Hi Lou, No, I do not know of any simulation tools, but didn't the article refer to Schrödinger's equation? I take it that is not enough, but the paper would likely explain the mathematics. The other thought that comes to mind when looking at the pics of the charge distribution inside the nucleus, is orientation; and I've mentioned this before in relation to electrons. I.e., if you could fire a particle (e, p or n) at an individual nucleus, would the orientation of the line of fire and the arrangement of nucleons (which in some cases takes in the look of a crystal lattice), would the probability of interaction be highly different (towards MORE likely to interact) if the line of fire was oriented perpendicular to what appears to be the nucleon lattice... or edge-on? There is a reason WHY the E and B fields are perpendicular (and don't say because of Maxwell!); there is a reason why when certain decay occurs the ejecta fly off in opposite directions, etc. There most certainly is geometry and specific orientations involved in atomic structure. The problem is just colliding two beams, or various other methods of investigation are dealing with a collection of atoms and thus, the orientation of collisions is random, which leads to probabilistic outcomes. RE: orientation and electrons... As I've mentioned in 'FYI' postings to the Collective over the last year, there are several groups now that are able to hold a single atom in laser/magnet 'traps' and perform very specific tests or imaging which involve orientation, so I think we're getting close to some significant new insights about atomic physics. -Mark -Original Message- From: pagnu...@htdconnect.com [mailto:pagnu...@htdconnect.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 11:14 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Coupled Protons and Directional Stability Thanks, Mark This is an interesting way to model the nucleus. I wonder if there are any simulation tools that approximate charged paricle collisions with nuclei (or atoms) that run on PCs rather than super-computers. Probably, the task is too computationally intensive, but maybe a moderately accurate simulation may be possible. If you know of any, let me know. -- Lou Pagnucco MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote: Lou and DaveR: You might want to take a look at this article: The atomic nucleus: fissile liquid or molecule of life? http://phys.org/news/2012-07-atomic-nucleus-fissile-liquid-molecule.ht ml -Mark -Original Message- From: pagnu...@htdconnect.com [mailto:pagnu...@htdconnect.com] Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 9:34 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Coupled Protons and Directional Stability David, Good questions. (However, to make your posts more readable, I suggest limiting your text lines to 75 characters, and using a paragraph format.) I believe that protons (or electrons) may move in coherent waves in nanostructures (or beams) that are strongly coupled permitting single particles to surmount much higher potential barriers than might be expected if one assumes that the particle can only use its kinetic energy to climb a potential hill - i.e., it behaves the same as in a vacuum. For example, I believe a single proton in the vacuum with velocity v, e.g., v --- p cannot surmount a barrier as high as the lead proton in a coherent, coupled proton row, all moving at the same velocity (v), e.g., v v v v v --- p --- p --- p --- --- p (A 3-dimensional funnel formation would deliver even more energy.) I am trying to work out some simple examples assuming just classical physics, with densities and velocities attainable in nanowires. It is not clear to me that this kind of analysis applies when translated to quantum field theory, but at least it gives some hints about what may be possible. I find it also interesting that axial collisions between proton and electron pairs may be head-on collisions since magnetic and coulomb forces will be 180 degrees opposite each other. Maybe, too, captures of inner (K-shell) electrons by protons in a nucleus could be analyzed by classical physics as a cross check for whether electron capture could be responsible for transmutations which may move atoms downward toward smaller atomic numbers. -- Lou Pagnucco David Roberson wrote: I asked the question in a previous post about thedirectional stability of a group of coupled protons but did not get sufficientresponse so I am attempting to rephrase. The stability of the directional characteristic of these nucleons is ofparamount importance if confirmed. There is a suggestion that many protons can work as a unit whenconfined to a nickel or similar crystal. If this is true, then perhaps an external or internal magnetic fieldmight be capable of modifying the direction of the entire group resulting inthe collision of one or more protons with nearby nickel nuclei. In this case fusion
Re: [Vo]: Coupled Protons and Directional Stability
David, My reply is below -- David Roberson wrote: Thanks for the interesting discussion Lou. I am not sure why my posting did not have paragraph separation as the source did. I used Word to write the posting with standard formatting that should have shown breaks when copied, but for some reason did not do so. Does anyone know why this technique did not perform this time? Your description of the series of protons working together is very much akin to what I was considering in my conception. In some ways this reminds me of a pinch mechanism of sorts since all of the effective current is flowing in one direction and their magnetic field should tend to concentrate them into a tighter beam. I wonder if the extended view of this mechanism into a cloud like structure would enhance the directional properties of the individual protons? If this occurs, then some of the projectile protons might be able to move more or less in a straight path toward a target nucleus with the ability to overcome the coulomb barrier as well as any small spatially oriented local magnetic fields. I believe that in oscillating plasmons, or in dielectric breakdown currents/arcs, or in ballistic (or super-conductive) currents in microstures, etc., charged particles can collectively move in highly correlated states. Certainly magnetic pinching can spatially and directionally concentrate these states. Possibly, the wave functions of both electrons and protons are pinched. This could only be a small effect, but I haven't been able to figure out the math yet. Your pictorial below suggests that the protons of the following chain add push to the head one. It will be interesting to determine how powerful this elastic connection is between them. Perhaps if enough protons work together it can become powerful. Perhaps. Making some reasonable assumptions on current densities and particle velocities in nanocircuits, you can use the classical Lorentz force formula to calculate how much energy can be borrowed from other electrons/protons in the collective oscillation or current - assuming classical electrons/protons. Trying to do the same calculation using quantum field theory is far more difficult - at least for me. Another feature of the coupled protons would be their tendency to absorb strong forces applied to one of their members is we assume that the elastic connection is sufficiently resistive. I have been seeking a process that can retard the action of the strong force as a proton overcomes the coulomb barrier and is rapidly pulled toward its accepting nucleus. The action of a multitude of protons might be capable of this feat. I am not sure if proton capture can be compared to electron capture. Maybe you are looking for some kind of screening effect? The other interesting phenomena I seek is the modification of proton direction of motion by a strong magnetic field that is extensive in nature. I visualize this field as directing the protons toward collisions with nuclei as it is adjusted either intentionally or by accident. A well regulated system would hopefully direct the protons according to plan. Well, I don't have an answer. However, electron capture and neutron capture can move the atomic number of a nucleus downward and upward, respectively - after decays. So, is it possible that an apparent proton capture is really a neutron capture after the captured neutron has decayed? Dave -Original Message- From: pagnucco pagnu...@htdconnect.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 31, 2012 12:34 am Subject: Re: [Vo]: Coupled Protons and Directional Stability David, Good questions. (However, to make your posts more readable, I suggest limiting your text lines to 75 characters, and using a paragraph format.) I believe that protons (or electrons) may move in coherent waves in nanostructures (or beams) that are strongly coupled permitting single particles to surmount much higher potential barriers than might be expected if one assumes that the particle can only use its kinetic energy to climb a potential hill - i.e., it behaves the same as in a vacuum. For example, I believe a single proton in the vacuum with velocity v, e.g., v --- p cannot surmount a barrier as high as the lead proton in a coherent, coupled proton row, all moving at the same velocity (v), e.g., v v v v v --- p --- p --- p --- --- p (A 3-dimensional funnel formation would deliver even more energy.) I am trying to work out some simple examples assuming just classical physics, with densities and velocities attainable in nanowires. It is not clear to me that this kind of analysis applies when translated to quantum field theory, but at least it gives some hints about what may be possible. I find it also interesting that axial collisions between proton and electron pairs may be head-on collisions since magnetic and coulomb
RE: [Vo]: Coupled Protons and Directional Stability
Hi Mark, My reply is below -- MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote: Hi Lou, No, I do not know of any simulation tools, but didn't the article refer to Schrödinger's equation? I take it that is not enough, but the paper would likely explain the mathematics. Yes - in theory, a simulation of the multibody Schroedinger is possible, but since computer time and memory requirements go up exponentially with particle number, only simple, few-particle simulations are possible. The quantum chemists have a lot of tricks to reduce the simulation requirements, but I don't know much about them. The other thought that comes to mind when looking at the pics of the charge distribution inside the nucleus, is orientation; and I've mentioned this before in relation to electrons. I.e., if you could fire a particle (e, p or n) at an individual nucleus, would the orientation of the line of fire and the arrangement of nucleons (which in some cases takes in the look of a crystal lattice), would the probability of interaction be highly different (towards MORE likely to interact) if the line of fire was oriented perpendicular to what appears to be the nucleon lattice... or edge-on? There is a reason WHY the E and B fields are perpendicular (and don't say because of Maxwell!); there is a reason why when certain decay occurs the ejecta fly off in opposite directions, etc. There most certainly is geometry and specific orientations involved in atomic structure. The problem is just colliding two beams, or various other methods of investigation are dealing with a collection of atoms and thus, the orientation of collisions is random, which leads to probabilistic outcomes. Yes. It must get really complicated when all of the orientation and fine-structure nuclear variables are taken into account. I am not sure, but I'd guess that some experiments induce a collective spin in the targets to at least reduce that dimension. For sure, the decays you mention respect momentum and energy conservation, and indicate some kinds of symmetries and orientations in the nucleus. I wish I knew more about this. RE: orientation and electrons... As I've mentioned in 'FYI' postings to the Collective over the last year, there are several groups now that are able to hold a single atom in laser/magnet 'traps' and perform very specific tests or imaging which involve orientation, so I think we're getting close to some significant new insights about atomic physics. -Mark -Original Message- From: pagnu...@htdconnect.com [mailto:pagnu...@htdconnect.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 11:14 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]: Coupled Protons and Directional Stability Thanks, Mark This is an interesting way to model the nucleus. I wonder if there are any simulation tools that approximate charged paricle collisions with nuclei (or atoms) that run on PCs rather than super-computers. Probably, the task is too computationally intensive, but maybe a moderately accurate simulation may be possible. If you know of any, let me know. -- Lou Pagnucco MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote: Lou and DaveR: You might want to take a look at this article: The atomic nucleus: fissile liquid or molecule of life? http://phys.org/news/2012-07-atomic-nucleus-fissile-liquid-molecule.ht ml -Mark -Original Message- From: pagnu...@htdconnect.com [mailto:pagnu...@htdconnect.com] Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 9:34 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Coupled Protons and Directional Stability David, Good questions. (However, to make your posts more readable, I suggest limiting your text lines to 75 characters, and using a paragraph format.) I believe that protons (or electrons) may move in coherent waves in nanostructures (or beams) that are strongly coupled permitting single particles to surmount much higher potential barriers than might be expected if one assumes that the particle can only use its kinetic energy to climb a potential hill - i.e., it behaves the same as in a vacuum. For example, I believe a single proton in the vacuum with velocity v, e.g., v --- p cannot surmount a barrier as high as the lead proton in a coherent, coupled proton row, all moving at the same velocity (v), e.g., v v v v v --- p --- p --- p --- --- p (A 3-dimensional funnel formation would deliver even more energy.) I am trying to work out some simple examples assuming just classical physics, with densities and velocities attainable in nanowires. It is not clear to me that this kind of analysis applies when translated to quantum field theory, but at least it gives some hints about what may be possible. I find it also interesting that axial collisions between proton and electron pairs may be head-on collisions since magnetic and coulomb forces will be 180 degrees opposite each other. Maybe, too, captures of inner (K-shell) electrons by protons in a nucleus could
RE: [Vo]: Coupled Protons and Directional Stability
Lou and DaveR: You might want to take a look at this article: The atomic nucleus: fissile liquid or molecule of life? http://phys.org/news/2012-07-atomic-nucleus-fissile-liquid-molecule.html -Mark -Original Message- From: pagnu...@htdconnect.com [mailto:pagnu...@htdconnect.com] Sent: Monday, July 30, 2012 9:34 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Coupled Protons and Directional Stability David, Good questions. (However, to make your posts more readable, I suggest limiting your text lines to 75 characters, and using a paragraph format.) I believe that protons (or electrons) may move in coherent waves in nanostructures (or beams) that are strongly coupled permitting single particles to surmount much higher potential barriers than might be expected if one assumes that the particle can only use its kinetic energy to climb a potential hill - i.e., it behaves the same as in a vacuum. For example, I believe a single proton in the vacuum with velocity v, e.g., v --- p cannot surmount a barrier as high as the lead proton in a coherent, coupled proton row, all moving at the same velocity (v), e.g., v v v v v --- p --- p --- p --- --- p (A 3-dimensional funnel formation would deliver even more energy.) I am trying to work out some simple examples assuming just classical physics, with densities and velocities attainable in nanowires. It is not clear to me that this kind of analysis applies when translated to quantum field theory, but at least it gives some hints about what may be possible. I find it also interesting that axial collisions between proton and electron pairs may be head-on collisions since magnetic and coulomb forces will be 180 degrees opposite each other. Maybe, too, captures of inner (K-shell) electrons by protons in a nucleus could be analyzed by classical physics as a cross check for whether electron capture could be responsible for transmutations which may move atoms downward toward smaller atomic numbers. -- Lou Pagnucco David Roberson wrote: I asked the question in a previous post about thedirectional stability of a group of coupled protons but did not get sufficientresponse so I am attempting to rephrase. The stability of the directional characteristic of these nucleons is ofparamount importance if confirmed. There is a suggestion that many protons can work as a unit whenconfined to a nickel or similar crystal. If this is true, then perhaps an external or internal magnetic fieldmight be capable of modifying the direction of the entire group resulting inthe collision of one or more protons with nearby nickel nuclei. In this case fusion might occur when the LENRdevice sees a change in the field direction. This seems to be consistent with the observation that movement ofhydrogen protons by diffusion into the nickel crystal appears to enhance energyproduction. The motion of theseparticles would result in the modification of the instantaneous magnetic field. It has also been reported that LENR does not occur until acertain minimum temperature is reached. This quite possibly may be when the internal magnetic properties of thenickel degrade and external lines of force take over. A process such as this would tend to bedifficult to predict unless understood and hence we would interpret this as atough process to reproduce. So the big question is: how strong is the coupling effectwith regard to the maintenance of the motion vector of the protons that groupand how much force can one proton be given as it attempts to breech the coulombbarrier? Does anyone know of where thistype of information might be obtained? Is there an experiment that can be performed that demonstrates thesephenomena? The question about directional stiffness can be broken downinto one major effect. Do coupled protonshave a very strong tendency to keep moving in the same direction as dictated bythe group? For example, if the group ofprotons is moving in the X direction, will it take a very large force to makeone of these acquire a Y or Z component to its motion? Likewise, can one of these protons overcomethe coulomb barrier by borrowing propulsion from its partners? I am considering protons that are “dressed†in a mannersimilar to the electrons that are activated by an energy source such as alaser. The electron coupling wasmentioned earlier in the vortex. Dave P.S. I am hoping to direct some energy toward a new subject. The climate change discussion is absorbing all of the bandwidth.
