Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
Thanks, I put this on Rossi's blog -- very interesting to read the old article. Robert A. Heinlein in "The Rolling Stones" wrote fine science fiction for teenagers in 1952 about a family vacationing from the Moon to Mars, in a rocket powered by "Single-H"... I read it over and over. Rich Murray
RE: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
-Original Message- From: Rich Murray > Thanks, I put this on Rossi's blog -- very interesting to read the old > article. Wait, there is more. And it is what many of you have been breathlessly awaiting. Yup, it’s black box time. Show and tell. Here is what could be in the Rossi black box, so-called - at least as best I can describe it in such a way to get the required “negative temperature” for getting the quasi-BEC. Of course the mystery box is the power supply, and my guess is it contains a precision RF power supply – to wit: a microwave tube or microtron or maser operating at 1420 MHz, the famous 21 cm line for spin flipping hydrogen. There is also an internal magnetic field in the device so the PS provides DC or pulsed DC for that. Here is how your go from there to negative temperature. On application of a magnetic field, hydrogen atoms will tend to align so as to minimize the energy of the system. Energy is added using radio frequency (RF) causing a population to flip, providing to a positive temperature - which is also the trigger temperature. At some point more than half of the spins are in the spin-up position. In this case, adding additional energy reduces the entropy, since it moves the system further from max entropy. This reduction in entropy with the addition of energy corresponds to a negative temperature. Some of this is paraphrased from the Wiki entry and you can fill in the blanks. The leap of faith, as stated in the original post, is the proposition that negative temperature can substitute for cryogenics to give a quasi-BEC. Again, you have every reason to be skeptical of that hypothesis, since there is not only no proof, but the logical connection is strained to the limits. That is what usually happens in paradigm shifts, so we will have to wait till the fat lady sings - but if nothing else, at that point we can use it in a re-write of “The Rolling Stones”… I doubt if it will gather moss.
RE: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
Jones: Did you have the right units on that RF frequency... 1420 Mhz is 1.420 Ghz, correct? -Mark -Original Message- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 7:56 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction? -Original Message- From: Rich Murray > Thanks, I put this on Rossi's blog -- very interesting to read the old > article. [snip] Of course the mystery box is the power supply, and my guess is it contains a precision RF power supply - to wit: a microwave tube or microtron or maser operating at 1420 MHz, the famous 21 cm line for spin flipping hydrogen. There is also an internal magnetic field in the device so the PS provides DC or pulsed DC for that. [snip]
Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
hmmm...consider this... A CANDU fission reactor needs lots of slow neutrons, so it uses heavy water as a moderator instead of light water. Harry > >From: Jones Beene >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Sent: Wed, January 19, 2011 9:27:47 PM >Subject: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction? > >Deuterium kills the reaction? >One detail worth exploringfurtherwas the statement from Rossi that >onlyhydrogenworks,andthatdeuterium kills the reaction! >That is counter-intuitive to say the least. Everyone in hot fusion knowsforan >absolutefact that deuterium isthemore activenucleus, right?And everyone in >LENR >knows that deuterium and palladium work, whereas H2is often used >asthe‘control’to show what doesn’t work. Go figure. >Well, pondering this for a moment, the onlypossiblepropertythat comes to >mindto >explain itwas posted a few days ago–the“composite boson”in the context of >negative temperature.It is sounding better and better as a rationale. >To rephrase, thecomplexargument goes like this. The heat anomaly, whether it >is >fusion or not depends on“pycno”or dense hydrogen clusters.Based on Lawandy’s >paperand others,we see thatspillovercatalysts operate by splitting molecular >hydrogen into atomic hydrogen without ionization. Dense hydrogen forms from >atomic hydrogenif there areadjoiningdielectricsurfaces orcavities.Atomic >hydrogen is a composite boson.If there areinternaldefects(cavities)for atoms >to >accumulate, they somehow seem to densifytherewithout ever going molecular. >We know that H is a composite boson which is a singularity in nature – as it >is >composed of the minimum number of fermions (2) that permit both states to >oscillate back and forth… and furthermore having this minimum number of >quantum >states to“align”(statistically)meansthatit is exponentially easier to condense >than deuterium atso-callednegative temperature(which are not“cold”)especially >since spin can be aligned magnetically... >Thanks to google books, we have access toanold issue of New Scientist from >1981. >On p. 205-6 there is clear indication that we have known for nearly 30 years >that hydrogen condensation can happen at cryogenic temperatures – i.e. that >monatomic hydrogen is a composite boson independent of the molecular state - >which has very unusual properties as a condensate. > >http://books.google.com/books?id=IbbMj56ht8sC&pg=PA205&lpg=PA205&dq=composite-boson+monatomic-hydrogen&source=bl&ots=XlZyp6rE-9&sig=AwMnZv-hCQzTfcbnkN2mQZ65VG0&hl=en&ei=JFwaTab7Oon0tgPSpKjJCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false > >This paper seems to have been largely forgotten,andoffers no indication that >“negative temperature” could provide an alternative to cryogenic temperature. >And certainly no indication that the Casimir cavity can provide a locus for >negative temperature. >Nooneshouldbe blamedat this juncturefor being completely skeptical that >negative >temperature in a cavity can do this, even on a temporary time frame; and the >onlyevidenceof it today is the implication from half a dozen papers which >indicate that so-called pycno-hydrogen exists (under many different names, >evenIRH or InverseRydbergHydrogen).Rossi’s results are consistent with this >modality, andHolmlid and Miley claim to have evidence oftiny bits ofhydrogen a >million times denser than liquidH2. >Are they nuts too?Or is it all fitting together like a jigsaw puzzle? >Jones
RE: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
Yes, I think Jones has a point... We know that at least some of the input power is used to feed a (resistive) heating element when starting up the reactor... i.e., you have to 'preheat the oven before baking the cookies'! :-) This initial power level is ~1000W - 1200W. After the reaction starts they lower the input power to ~600W. Now, if the ONLY thing that is fed by this input power is the heating element, then why does turning it off cause runaway??? Turning it off will cause the temperature to decrease since that's 600W of heat that is removed from the reactor, which should make internal reactor temp go down... ah, so as Holmes always sez... "Eliminate the impossible, and whatever remains, however improbable, must be the answer!" Conclusion: The input power is NOT just going to a resistive element. There's got to be something else that is requiring power, and whatever that is consumes about 600W and is what maintains stability. The heating element is the other ~400 to 600W and is just used as preheater to start the reaction... -Mark -Original Message- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 7:56 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction? -Original Message- From: Rich Murray > Thanks, I put this on Rossi's blog -- very interesting to read the old > article. Wait, there is more. And it is what many of you have been breathlessly awaiting. Yup, it's black box time. Show and tell. Here is what could be in the Rossi black box, so-called - at least as best I can describe it in such a way to get the required "negative temperature" for getting the quasi-BEC. Of course the mystery box is the power supply, and my guess is it contains a precision RF power supply - to wit: a microwave tube or microtron or maser operating at 1420 MHz, the famous 21 cm line for spin flipping hydrogen. There is also an internal magnetic field in the device so the PS provides DC or pulsed DC for that. Here is how your go from there to negative temperature. On application of a magnetic field, hydrogen atoms will tend to align so as to minimize the energy of the system. Energy is added using radio frequency (RF) causing a population to flip, providing to a positive temperature - which is also the trigger temperature. At some point more than half of the spins are in the spin-up position. In this case, adding additional energy reduces the entropy, since it moves the system further from max entropy. This reduction in entropy with the addition of energy corresponds to a negative temperature. Some of this is paraphrased from the Wiki entry and you can fill in the blanks. The leap of faith, as stated in the original post, is the proposition that negative temperature can substitute for cryogenics to give a quasi-BEC. Again, you have every reason to be skeptical of that hypothesis, since there is not only no proof, but the logical connection is strained to the limits. That is what usually happens in paradigm shifts, so we will have to wait till the fat lady sings - but if nothing else, at that point we can use it in a re-write of "The Rolling Stones". I doubt if it will gather moss.
Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
I don't think there is any RF generator. My understanding of how the process works is this First, the nano sized powder is cleaned of impurities by being baked and perhaps exposed to chemicals. Second, the nano sized powder is bathed in chemicals and baked repeatedly. This makes it able to absorb more hydrogen. Third, the powder is mixed with one or more catalysts. One of these catalysts may be sodium hydride. Fourth, the sodium hydride and nickel powder are embedded into some sort of ceramic. Fifth, this is placed in the cell. Sixth, the cell is pumped with hydrogen. Seventh, the resistor in the cell is turned on which produces heat. Eighth, when the cell reaches a certain temperature the sodium hydride releases atomic hydrogen which fills in the little cracks in the nickel powder. The atomic hydrogen may turn into hydrinos (releasing energy) which then may fuse with the nickel which may produce more energy. Ninth, the temperature in the cell rises. Then the input is reduced slightly to allow the temperature to go down. This allows the sodium hydride to regenerate and absorb hydrogen. Tenth, the current through the resistor is increased and the cycle starts all over again. I do not see any need for an RF generator. I think the system can self sustain if the temperature is hot enough, but the problem is that there could be a runaway explosion if that happens. Also, I do not see how the reaction runs away when the device is turned off. From: Mark Iverson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, January 19, 2011 11:29:15 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction? Jones: Did you have the right units on that RF frequency... 1420 Mhz is 1.420 Ghz, correct? -Mark -Original Message- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 7:56 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction? -Original Message- From: Rich Murray > Thanks, I put this on Rossi's blog -- very interesting to read the old article. [snip] Of course the mystery box is the power supply, and my guess is it contains a precision RF power supply - to wit: a microwave tube or microtron or maser operating at 1420 MHz, the famous 21 cm line for spin flipping hydrogen. There is also an internal magnetic field in the device so the PS provides DC or pulsed DC for that. [snip]
Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
Hi noone noone said on Thu, 20 Jan 2011 02:13:08 -0800 I don't think there is any RF generator. My understanding of how the process works is this First, the nano sized powder is cleaned of impurities by being baked and perhaps exposed to chemicals. Second, the nano sized powder is bathed in chemicals and baked repeatedly. This makes it able to absorb more hydrogen. Third, the powder is mixed with one or more catalysts. One of these catalysts may be sodium hydride. Fourth, the sodium hydride and nickel powder are embedded into some sort of ceramic. = I did see someone mention ceramic but think this is an equivalent ceramic environment resulting >From the crystalline structure of metal lattice with defects and it's ability to store hydrogen protons In the interstitial space of said lattice. == Fifth, this is placed in the cell. Sixth, the cell is pumped with hydrogen. ===I know it is pressurized but are sure it is pumped? That would suggest a flow and the tank didn't use any measurable gas Seventh, the resistor in the cell is turned on which produces heat. Eighth, when the cell reaches a certain temperature the sodium hydride releases atomic hydrogen which fills in the little cracks in the nickel powder. The atomic hydrogen may turn into hydrinos (releasing energy) which then may fuse with the nickel which may produce more energy. this is where we are all conjecturing for a best fit but still remains a mystery, we need more clues You imply there must be an asymmetry in the absorbing desorbing of hydrogen by the sodium where I suspect there must also be a change in bond state To aquire this asymmetry -perhaps due to the proximity of the disassociation threshold the bond states for absorb abd desorb are different? = Ninth, the temperature in the cell rises. Then the input is reduced slightly to allow the temperature to go down. This allows the sodium hydride to regenerate and absorb hydrogen. Tenth, the current through the resistor is increased and the cycle starts all over again. I do not see any need for an RF generator. I think the system can self sustain if the temperature is hot enough, but the problem is that there could be a runaway explosion if that happens. Also, I do not see how the reaction runs away when the device is turned off.
RE: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
Yes. That's right. If you are old enough, you learned the hydrogen line in school as 1420 megacycles. "Giga" was not in student's vocabulary then. This is what we call the "hyperfine structure" today. -Original Message- From: Mark Iverson Jones: Did you have the right units on that RF frequency... 1420 Mhz is 1.420 Ghz, correct? -Mark
Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
Deuterium kills the reaction? Amazing if true. You have to hand it to Rossi: he finds things out. He discovers things others do not. Like Mizuno. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
From: noone noone * I don't think there is any RF generator. The purpose of the Rossi "black box" is said to be a secret, but if it were merely a DC power supply for a resistive heater, then you would be implying a planned intent to deceive the audience, which is not impossible, but unlikely. * I do not see any need for an RF generator. I think the system can self sustain if the temperature is hot enough, but the problem is that there could be a runaway explosion if that happens. Again, the need for RF is NOT as a heater, but as a means of spin flipping hydrogen to attain negative temperature in this (highly speculative) hypothesis. Rossi cannot mention RF as an input in the patent, since RF has been previously patented as a way to heat a hydrogen nuclear reactor. And since Rossi is probably unaware of the quasi-BEC modality (assuming that it could be accurate to some extent) then he probably thinks the advantage of RF over other input is the great unknown mystery, and which he admits to not comprehending. If it turns out to indeed be RF input, then we can say that he found out that it is advantageous through trial and error, yet apparently thinks that it works for the same reason that it is used in prior-art, in tokomaks, etc. So he could be right for the wrong reason. Although my underlying hypothesis of operation - with the quasi-BEC - is admittedly "way out there" on the fringe of the fringe, it is pretty clear that Rossi has done what Randell Mills could not do. In effect, you seem to be saying that Rossi has invented nothing more than a better version of the Mills' reactor. That is most unlikely, since Mills has not gotten his to run in a continuous mode for long enough to begin placement in the grid plants of his licensees, and he is far better funded. Rossi claims a year of operation already. OK maybe that is an exaggeration, but it is clear to me that he has made a major breakthrough advance over Mills, even though he may have borrowed the basic starting ingredients - and so far that alone implies a fundamental difference in the MO. It may not be RF as the input, but it is probably going to be new physics; and the hypothesis of dense hydrogen (pycno) leading to a quasi-BEC has not been shot down yet. Of course, that could happen later today :-) Jones
Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
Dear Jones, Randy Mills would not agree with your assertion. He is waiting for the scientific analysis (that of Bologna professors) to make an opinion of the demonstration and the generator. If hydrinos have played a role, they can be found with the method described e..g. in this paper: RL Mills et many: "Commercializable Power Source from Forming New States of Hydrogen" Int J. Hydrogen Energy vol 34 (2009) 573-614 One of the greaest advantages of Mills upon "us" is that he understand what happens in his systems. He has a first class theory- that predicts. Second class theory prohibits, third class describes, explans what has happened> What kind of theory do we have? A "good" point is that we have many! On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Jones Beene wrote: > *From:* noone noone > > > > Ø I don't think there is any RF generator. > > > > The purpose of the Rossi “black box” is said to be a secret, but if it were > merely a DC power supply for a resistive heater, then you would be implying > a planned intent to deceive the audience, which is not impossible, but > unlikely. > > > > Ø I do not see any need for an RF generator. I think the system can self > sustain if the temperature is hot enough, but the problem is that there > could be a runaway explosion if that happens. > > Again, the need for RF is NOT as a heater, but as a means of spin > flipping hydrogen to attain negative temperature in this (highly > speculative) hypothesis. Rossi cannot mention RF as an input in the patent, > since RF has been previously patented as a way to heat a hydrogen nuclear > reactor. > > > > And since Rossi is probably unaware of the quasi-BEC modality (assuming > that it could be accurate to some extent) then he probably thinks the > advantage of RF over other input is the great unknown mystery, and which he > admits to not comprehending. > > > > If it turns out to indeed be RF input, then we can say that he found out > that it is advantageous through trial and error, yet apparently thinks that > it works for the same reason that it is used in prior-art, in tokomaks, etc. > So he could be right for the wrong reason. > > > > Although my underlying hypothesis of operation - with the quasi-BEC - is > admittedly “way out there” on the fringe of the fringe, it is pretty clear > that Rossi has done what Randell Mills could not do. > > > > In effect, you seem to be saying that Rossi has invented nothing more than > a better version of the Mills’ reactor. That is most unlikely, since Mills > has not gotten his to run in a continuous mode for long enough to begin > placement in the grid plants of his licensees, and he is far better funded. > > > > Rossi claims a year of operation already. OK maybe that is an exaggeration, > but it is clear to me that he has made a major breakthrough advance over > Mills, even though he may have borrowed the basic starting ingredients - and > so far that alone implies a fundamental difference in the MO. > > > > It may not be RF as the input, but it is probably going to be new physics; > and the hypothesis of dense hydrogen (pycno) leading to a quasi-BEC has not > been shot down yet. Of course, that could happen later today J > > > > Jones > > > > >
RE: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
Dear Peter, Do you know the phrase "specchietto per le allodole"? It is often what happens publicly, after a furious inventor has had a heart-to-heart talk with his attorney: "Stay cool and maintain dignity, let me handle the dirty work" Jones From: Peter Gluck Dear Jones, Randy Mills would not agree with your assertion. He is waiting for the scientific analysis (that of Bologna professors) to make an opinion of the demonstration and the generator. If hydrinos have played a role, they can be found with the method described e..g. in this paper: RL Mills et many: "Commercializable Power Source from Forming New States of Hydrogen" Int J. Hydrogen Energy vol 34 (2009) 573-614 One of the greaest advantages of Mills upon "us" is that he understand what happens in his systems. He has a first class theory- that predicts. Second class theory prohibits, third class describes, explans what has happened> What kind of theory do we have? A "good" point is that we have many!
Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
Yes, but it is about a kind of trap. What does it mean in the context of our discussions- re Randy? I e-knew one of the attorneys of Randy- it was some dispute with an Englishman re a patent. Peter On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Jones Beene wrote: > Dear Peter, > > > > Do you know the phrase “specchietto per le allodole”? > > > > It is often what happens publicly, after a furious inventor has had a > heart-to-heart talk with his attorney: “Stay cool and maintain dignity, let > me handle the dirty work” > > > > Jones > > > > > > > > *From:* Peter Gluck > > > > Dear Jones, > > > > Randy Mills would not agree with your assertion. > > He is waiting for the scientific analysis (that of Bologna professors) to > > make an opinion of the demonstration and the generator. > > > > If hydrinos have played a role, they can be found with the method described > e..g. in this paper: > > RL Mills et many: "Commercializable Power Source from Forming New States of > Hydrogen" Int J. Hydrogen Energy vol 34 (2009) 573-614 > > > > One of the greaest advantages of Mills upon "us" is that he understand > > what happens in his systems. He has a first class theory- that predicts. > > Second class theory prohibits, third class describes, explans what has > happened> What kind of theory do we have? A "good" point is that we have > many! > > > > >
Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
Then why does BLP not produce a product? They seem to have had a rock solid easily to replicate technology for a decade. From: Peter Gluck To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 10:30:34 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction? Dear Jones, Randy Mills would not agree with your assertion. He is waiting for the scientific analysis (that of Bologna professors) to make an opinion of the demonstration and the generator. If hydrinos have played a role, they can be found with the method described e..g. in this paper: RL Mills et many: "Commercializable Power Source from Forming New States of Hydrogen" Int J. Hydrogen Energy vol 34 (2009) 573-614 One of the greaest advantages of Mills upon "us" is that he understand what happens in his systems. He has a first class theory- that predicts. Second class theory prohibits, third class describes, explans what has happened> What kind of theory do we have? A "good" point is that we have many! On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Jones Beene wrote: From:noone noone > >Ø I don't think there is any RF generator. > >The purpose of the Rossi “black box” is said to be a secret, but if it were >merely a DC power supply for a resistive heater, then you would be implying a >planned intent to deceive the audience, which is not impossible, but unlikely. > > >Ø I do not see any need for an RF generator. I think the system can self >sustain if the temperature is hot enough, but the problem is that there could >be >a runaway explosion if that happens. > > >Again, the need for RF is NOT as a heater, but as a means of spin flipping >hydrogen to attain negative temperature in this (highly speculative) >hypothesis. >Rossi cannot mention RF as an input in the patent, since RF has been >previously >patented as a way to heat a hydrogen nuclear reactor. > > >And since Rossi is probably unaware of the quasi-BEC modality (assuming that >it >could be accurate to some extent) then he probably thinks the advantage of RF >over other input is the great unknown mystery, and which he admits to not >comprehending. > > >If it turns out to indeed be RF input, then we can say that he found out that >it >is advantageous through trial and error, yet apparently thinks that it works >for >the same reason that it is used in prior-art, in tokomaks, etc. So he could be >right for the wrong reason. > >Although my underlying hypothesis of operation - with the quasi-BEC - is >admittedly “way out there” on the fringe of the fringe, it is pretty clear >that >Rossi has done what Randell Mills could not do. > > >In effect, you seem to be saying that Rossi has invented nothing more than a >better version of the Mills’ reactor. That is most unlikely, since Mills has >not >gotten his to run in a continuous mode for long enough to begin placement in >the >grid plants of his licensees, and he is far better funded. > > >Rossi claims a year of operation already. OK maybe that is an exaggeration, >but >it is clear to me that he has made a major breakthrough advance over Mills, >even >though he may have borrowed the basic starting ingredients - and so far that >alone implies a fundamental difference in the MO. > > >It may not be RF as the input, but it is probably going to be new physics; and >the hypothesis of dense hydrogen (pycno) leading to a quasi-BEC has not been >shot down yet. Of course, that could happen later today J > >Jones > >
Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
They have a complex technology, needs a lot of development, can be replicated but no easily. Take please a look to the papers at the BlackLightPower website. They will demonstrate later this year their CIHT technology- it generates electricity. I have worked 40 years in the chemical industry nad I have an understanding of the problems they have to solve before becoming a very important source of energy. My best friend Mike Carrell who has also worked for long years -electrotechnics, advent of elctronics also sees Randy's technology as The Solution Peter On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 7:27 PM, noone noone wrote: > Then why does BLP not produce a product? > > They seem to have had a rock solid easily to replicate technology for a > decade. > > > -- > *From:* Peter Gluck > > *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com > *Sent:* Thu, January 20, 2011 10:30:34 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction? > > Dear Jones, > > Randy Mills would not agree with your assertion. > He is waiting for the scientific analysis (that of Bologna professors) to > make an opinion of the demonstration and the generator. > > If hydrinos have played a role, they can be found with the method described > e..g. in this paper: > RL Mills et many: "Commercializable Power Source from Forming New States of > Hydrogen" Int J. Hydrogen Energy vol 34 (2009) 573-614 > > One of the greaest advantages of Mills upon "us" is that he understand > what happens in his systems. He has a first class theory- that predicts. > Second class theory prohibits, third class describes, explans what has > happened> What kind of theory do we have? A "good" point is that we have > many! > > On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Jones Beene wrote: > >> *From:* noone noone >> >> >> >> Ø I don't think there is any RF generator. >> >> >> >> The purpose of the Rossi “black box” is said to be a secret, but if it >> were merely a DC power supply for a resistive heater, then you would be >> implying a planned intent to deceive the audience, which is not impossible, >> but unlikely. >> >> >> >> Ø I do not see any need for an RF generator. I think the system can self >> sustain if the temperature is hot enough, but the problem is that there >> could be a runaway explosion if that happens. >> >> Again, the need for RF is NOT as a heater, but as a means of spin >> flipping hydrogen to attain negative temperature in this (highly >> speculative) hypothesis. Rossi cannot mention RF as an input in the patent, >> since RF has been previously patented as a way to heat a hydrogen nuclear >> reactor. >> >> >> >> And since Rossi is probably unaware of the quasi-BEC modality (assuming >> that it could be accurate to some extent) then he probably thinks the >> advantage of RF over other input is the great unknown mystery, and which he >> admits to not comprehending. >> >> >> >> If it turns out to indeed be RF input, then we can say that he found out >> that it is advantageous through trial and error, yet apparently thinks that >> it works for the same reason that it is used in prior-art, in tokomaks, etc. >> So he could be right for the wrong reason. >> >> >> >> Although my underlying hypothesis of operation - with the quasi-BEC - is >> admittedly “way out there” on the fringe of the fringe, it is pretty clear >> that Rossi has done what Randell Mills could not do. >> >> >> >> In effect, you seem to be saying that Rossi has invented nothing more than >> a better version of the Mills’ reactor. That is most unlikely, since Mills >> has not gotten his to run in a continuous mode for long enough to begin >> placement in the grid plants of his licensees, and he is far better funded. >> >> >> >> Rossi claims a year of operation already. OK maybe that is an >> exaggeration, but it is clear to me that he has made a major breakthrough >> advance over Mills, even though he may have borrowed the basic starting >> ingredients - and so far that alone implies a fundamental difference in the >> MO. >> >> >> >> It may not be RF as the input, but it is probably going to be new physics; >> and the hypothesis of dense hydrogen (pycno) leading to a quasi-BEC has not >> been shot down yet. Of course, that could happen later today J >> >> >> >> Jones >> >> >> >> >> > > >
Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
The information about the ceramic comes from the following: Dr. Brian Ahern presented the tenth talk, “Inverse Capillary Discharge for Amplifying LANR.” Ahern has been very intrigued by the recent work by Rossi and Focardi (http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSanewenergy.pdf) involving Ni and normal hydrogen. He pointed out that they have used two important innovative steps: 1) The use of a composite material involving nanometer scale Ni and a ceramic; 2) The use of gas-loading to significantly raise the levels of excess heat that are observed in Ni-H systems. As in his first talk, Ahern emphasized the idea that energy localization, resulting from non-linear effects, might potentially play a key role in initiating excess heat. (Infinite Energy) I do not know if it is pumped or not. Please explain this "this is where we are all conjecturing for a best fit but still remains a mystery, we need more clues You imply there must be an asymmetry in the absorbing desorbing of hydrogen by the sodium where I suspect there must also be a change in bond state To aquire this asymmetry –perhaps due to the proximity of the disassociation threshold the bond states for absorb abd desorb are different? From: francis To: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 7:28:21 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction? Hi noone noone said on Thu, 20 Jan 2011 02:13:08 -0800 I don't think there is any RF generator. My understanding of how the process works is this First, the nano sized powder is cleaned of impurities by being baked and perhaps exposed to chemicals. Second, the nano sized powder is bathed in chemicals and baked repeatedly. This makes it able to absorb more hydrogen. Third, the powder is mixed with one or more catalysts. One of these catalysts may be sodium hydride. Fourth, the sodium hydride and nickel powder are embedded into some sort of ceramic. = I did see someone mention ceramic but think this is an equivalent ceramic environment resulting From the crystalline structure of metal lattice with defects and it’s ability to store hydrogen protons In the interstitial space of said lattice. == Fifth, this is placed in the cell. Sixth, the cell is pumped with hydrogen. ===I know it is pressurized but are sure it is pumped? That would suggest a flow and the tank didn’t use any measurable gas Seventh, the resistor in the cell is turned on which produces heat. Eighth, when the cell reaches a certain temperature the sodium hydride releases atomic hydrogen which fills in the little cracks in the nickel powder. The atomic hydrogen may turn into hydrinos (releasing energy) which then may fuse with the nickel which may produce more energy. this is where we are all conjecturing for a best fit but still remains a mystery, we need more clues You imply there must be an asymmetry in the absorbing desorbing of hydrogen by the sodium where I suspect there must also be a change in bond state To aquire this asymmetry –perhaps due to the proximity of the disassociation threshold the bond states for absorb abd desorb are different? = Ninth, the temperature in the cell rises. Then the input is reduced slightly to allow the temperature to go down. This allows the sodium hydride to regenerate and absorb hydrogen. Tenth, the current through the resistor is increased and the cycle starts all over again. I do not see any need for an RF generator. I think the system can self sustain if the temperature is hot enough, but the problem is that there could be a runaway explosion if that happens. Also, I do not see how the reaction runs away when the device is turned off.
Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
Do you have Skype? Could we talk on there? From: Peter Gluck To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 12:39:13 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction? They have a complex technology, needs a lot of development, can be replicated but no easily. Take please a look to the papers at the BlackLightPower website. They will demonstrate later this year their CIHT technology- it generates electricity. I have worked 40 years in the chemical industry nad I have an understanding of the problems they have to solve before becoming a very important source of energy. My best friend Mike Carrell who has also worked for long years -electrotechnics, advent of elctronics also sees Randy's technology as The Solution Peter On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 7:27 PM, noone noone wrote: Then why does BLP not produce a product? > >They seem to have had a rock solid easily to replicate technology for a decade. > > > > > > From: Peter Gluck > >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 10:30:34 AM >Subject: Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction? > > >Dear Jones, > > >Randy Mills would not agree with your assertion. >He is waiting for the scientific analysis (that of Bologna professors) to >make an opinion of the demonstration and the generator. > > >If hydrinos have played a role, they can be found with the method described >e..g. in this paper: >RL Mills et many: "Commercializable Power Source from Forming New States of >Hydrogen" Int J. Hydrogen Energy vol 34 (2009) 573-614 > > >One of the greaest advantages of Mills upon "us" is that he understand >what happens in his systems. He has a first class theory- that predicts. >Second class theory prohibits, third class describes, explans what has >happened> >What kind of theory do we have? A "good" point is that we have many! > > >On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Jones Beene wrote: > >From:noone noone >> >>Ø I don't think there is any RF generator. >> >>The purpose of the Rossi “black box” is said to be a secret, but if it were >>merely a DC power supply for a resistive heater, then you would be implying a >>planned intent to deceive the audience, which is not impossible, but >>unlikely. >> >> >>Ø I do not see any need for an RF generator. I think the system can self >>sustain if the temperature is hot enough, but the problem is that there could >>be >>a runaway explosion if that happens. >> >> >>Again, the need for RF is NOT as a heater, but as a means of spin flipping >>hydrogen to attain negative temperature in this (highly speculative) >>hypothesis. >>Rossi cannot mention RF as an input in the patent, since RF has been >>previously >>patented as a way to heat a hydrogen nuclear reactor. >> >> >>And since Rossi is probably unaware of the quasi-BEC modality (assuming that >>it >>could be accurate to some extent) then he probably thinks the advantage of RF >>over other input is the great unknown mystery, and which he admits to not >>comprehending. >> >> >>If it turns out to indeed be RF input, then we can say that he found out that >>it >>is advantageous through trial and error, yet apparently thinks that it works >>for >>the same reason that it is used in prior-art, in tokomaks, etc. So he could >>be >>right for the wrong reason. >> >>Although my underlying hypothesis of operation - with the quasi-BEC - is >>admittedly “way out there” on the fringe of the fringe, it is pretty clear >>that >>Rossi has done what Randell Mills could not do. >> >> >>In effect, you seem to be saying that Rossi has invented nothing more than a >>better version of the Mills’ reactor. That is most unlikely, since Mills has >>not >>gotten his to run in a continuous mode for long enough to begin placement in >>the >>grid plants of his licensees, and he is far better funded. >> >> >>Rossi claims a year of operation already. OK maybe that is an exaggeration, >>but >>it is clear to me that he has made a major breakthrough advance over Mills, >>even >>though he may have borrowed the basic starting ingredients - and so far that >>alone implies a fundamental difference in the MO. >> >> >>It may not be RF as the input, but it is probably going to be new physics; >>and >>the hypothesis of dense hydrogen (pycno) leading to a quasi-BEC has not been >>shot down yet. Of course, that could happen later today J >> >>Jones >> >> > >
Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
No, I am rather deaf- not completely anyway- I enjoy good music. You can write me at peter.gl...@gmail.com and I will answer immediately, with pleasure. Peter On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 7:41 PM, noone noone wrote: > Do you have Skype? Could we talk on there? > > > -- > *From:* Peter Gluck > *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com > *Sent:* Thu, January 20, 2011 12:39:13 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction? > > They have a complex technology, needs a lot of development, can be > replicated but no easily. Take please a look to the papers at the > BlackLightPower website. They will demonstrate later this year their CIHT > technology- it generates electricity. I have worked 40 years in the chemical > industry nad I have an understanding of the problems they have to solve > before becoming a very important source of energy. My best friend Mike > Carrell who has also worked for long years -electrotechnics, advent of > elctronics also sees Randy's technology as The Solution > Peter > > On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 7:27 PM, noone noone wrote: > >> Then why does BLP not produce a product? >> >> They seem to have had a rock solid easily to replicate technology for a >> decade. >> >> >> -- >> *From:* Peter Gluck >> >> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com >> *Sent:* Thu, January 20, 2011 10:30:34 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction? >> >> Dear Jones, >> >> Randy Mills would not agree with your assertion. >> He is waiting for the scientific analysis (that of Bologna professors) to >> make an opinion of the demonstration and the generator. >> >> If hydrinos have played a role, they can be found with the method >> described e..g. in this paper: >> RL Mills et many: "Commercializable Power Source from Forming New States >> of Hydrogen" Int J. Hydrogen Energy vol 34 (2009) 573-614 >> >> One of the greaest advantages of Mills upon "us" is that he understand >> what happens in his systems. He has a first class theory- that predicts. >> Second class theory prohibits, third class describes, explans what has >> happened> What kind of theory do we have? A "good" point is that we have >> many! >> >> On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Jones Beene wrote: >> >>> *From:* noone noone >>> >>> >>> >>> Ø I don't think there is any RF generator. >>> >>> >>> >>> The purpose of the Rossi “black box” is said to be a secret, but if it >>> were merely a DC power supply for a resistive heater, then you would be >>> implying a planned intent to deceive the audience, which is not impossible, >>> but unlikely. >>> >>> >>> >>> Ø I do not see any need for an RF generator. I think the system can >>> self sustain if the temperature is hot enough, but the problem is that there >>> could be a runaway explosion if that happens. >>> >>> Again, the need for RF is NOT as a heater, but as a means of spin >>> flipping hydrogen to attain negative temperature in this (highly >>> speculative) hypothesis. Rossi cannot mention RF as an input in the patent, >>> since RF has been previously patented as a way to heat a hydrogen nuclear >>> reactor. >>> >>> >>> >>> And since Rossi is probably unaware of the quasi-BEC modality (assuming >>> that it could be accurate to some extent) then he probably thinks the >>> advantage of RF over other input is the great unknown mystery, and which he >>> admits to not comprehending. >>> >>> >>> >>> If it turns out to indeed be RF input, then we can say that he found out >>> that it is advantageous through trial and error, yet apparently thinks that >>> it works for the same reason that it is used in prior-art, in tokomaks, etc. >>> So he could be right for the wrong reason. >>> >>> >>> >>> Although my underlying hypothesis of operation - with the quasi-BEC - is >>> admittedly “way out there” on the fringe of the fringe, it is pretty clear >>> that Rossi has done what Randell Mills could not do. >>> >>> >>> >>> In effect, you seem to be saying that Rossi has invented nothing more >>> than a better version of the Mills’ reactor. That is most unlikely, since >>> Mills has not gotten his to run in a continuous mode for long enough to >>> begin placement in the grid plants of his licensees, and he is far better >>> funded. >>> >>> >>> >>> Rossi claims a year of operation already. OK maybe that is an >>> exaggeration, but it is clear to me that he has made a major breakthrough >>> advance over Mills, even though he may have borrowed the basic starting >>> ingredients - and so far that alone implies a fundamental difference in the >>> MO. >>> >>> >>> >>> It may not be RF as the input, but it is probably going to be new >>> physics; and the hypothesis of dense hydrogen (pycno) leading to a quasi-BEC >>> has not been shot down yet. Of course, that could happen later today J >>> >>> >>> >>> Jones >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > >
Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 12:27 PM, noone noone wrote: > Then why does BLP not produce a product? > I think Jones has pointed out why. They generate radioactive ash. T
Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
In reply to noone noone's message of Thu, 20 Jan 2011 02:11:47 -0800 (PST): Hi, [snip] >Also, I do not see how the reaction runs away when the device is turned off. The Papp engine also exploded when the power was removed. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 20 Jan 2011 06:57:15 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Again, the need for RF is NOT as a heater, but as a means of spin flipping >hydrogen to attain negative temperature in this (highly speculative) >hypothesis. Rossi cannot mention RF as an input in the patent, since RF has >been previously patented as a way to heat a hydrogen nuclear reactor. > Surely that would only preclude him from getting a patent if it were the only claim? Many patents include aspects of other patents. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
RE: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
Hi Robin, > Surely that [RF] would only preclude him from getting a patent if it were the only claim? Many patents include aspects of other patents. Well, maybe not - but I am backing off the RF possibility anyway without more evidence for it. It was offered as a an effective way to stimulate the reaction via resonant spin flipping at 1.42 GHz. There could be distinct advantage to any kind of RF over resistence heating, if dense hydrogen is there; but it looks like there are technical problems in powering RF from the Blue box. The case of the missing coax. The only possible way would be to set up the reactor itself as a triode, where the fuel cylinder was the anode, and there is a concentric cathode, external to the anode with a grid in between. In this way a P-in of mid voltage DC current to the cathode and the grid could be modulated by onboard circuitry which tolerates heat. That is: the grid could be modulated by say an onboard array of Gunn or tuned cavity diodes. IOW there probably are tunable diodes available which could tolerate the heat. But the signal would likely be easily detectable in the room, even with a Faraday cage. I wonder if anyone checked for RF in there? Jones
RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction?
Noone, Thanks for the references regarding the ceramic and the 30% transmutation of Ni to cu after 6 months of operation (guilty of not doing my homework). I will google these further to see if I can find any additional support. As far as my comment on the need for asymmetry I am simply saying the environment must create an energy imbalance to either accelerate the reactants or lower the columb barrier as compared to a non catalyzed reaction to explain the transmutations to cu . Something in the MO has to be unbalanced – I am convinced that the change in bond state is a requirement to creating an asymetry because the anomaly requires a proximity to the threshold of disassociation (this goes all the way back to Langmuir and the atomic welder)– it may be the absorbing and desorbing process provide a sort of hysteresis to that threshold trip level varies depending on the bond state of the gas. A sort of maxwells demon that sidesteps the difficulty of directionalizing and segregates energy based on bond state. Regards Fran From: noone noone [mailto:thesteornpa...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:41 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction? The information about the ceramic comes from the following: Dr. Brian Ahern presented the tenth talk, “Inverse Capillary Discharge for Amplifying LANR.” Ahern has been very intrigued by the recent work by Rossi and Focardi (http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSanewenergy.pdf) involving Ni and normal hydrogen. He pointed out that they have used two important innovative steps: 1) The use of a composite material involving nanometer scale Ni and a ceramic; 2) The use of gas-loading to significantly raise the levels of excess heat that are observed in Ni-H systems. As in his first talk, Ahern emphasized the idea that energy localization, resulting from non-linear effects, might potentially play a key role in initiating excess heat. (Infinite Energy) I do not know if it is pumped or not. Please explain this "this is where we are all conjecturing for a best fit but still remains a mystery, we need more clues You imply there must be an asymmetry in the absorbing desorbing of hydrogen by the sodium where I suspect there must also be a change in bond state To aquire this asymmetry –perhaps due to the proximity of the disassociation threshold the bond states for absorb abd desorb are different? From: francis To: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 7:28:21 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Deuterium kills the reaction? Hi noone noone said on Thu, 20 Jan 2011 02:13:08 -0800 I don't think there is any RF generator. My understanding of how the process works is this First, the nano sized powder is cleaned of impurities by being baked and perhaps exposed to chemicals. Second, the nano sized powder is bathed in chemicals and baked repeatedly. This makes it able to absorb more hydrogen. Third, the powder is mixed with one or more catalysts. One of these catalysts may be sodium hydride. Fourth, the sodium hydride and nickel powder are embedded into some sort of ceramic. = I did see someone mention ceramic but think this is an equivalent ceramic environment resulting From the crystalline structure of metal lattice with defects and it’s ability to store hydrogen protons In the interstitial space of said lattice. == Fifth, this is placed in the cell. Sixth, the cell is pumped with hydrogen. ===I know it is pressurized but are sure it is pumped? That would suggest a flow and the tank didn’t use any measurable gas Seventh, the resistor in the cell is turned on which produces heat. Eighth, when the cell reaches a certain temperature the sodium hydride releases atomic hydrogen which fills in the little cracks in the nickel powder. The atomic hydrogen may turn into hydrinos (releasing energy) which then may fuse with the nickel which may produce more energy. this is where we are all conjecturing for a best fit but still remains a mystery, we need more clues You imply there must be an asymmetry in the absorbing desorbing of hydrogen by the sodium where I suspect there must also be a change in bond state To aquire this asymmetry –perhaps due to the proximity of the disassociation threshold the bond states for absorb abd desorb are different? = Ninth, the temperature in the cell rises. Then the input is reduced slightly to allow the temperature to go down. This allows the sodium hydride to regenerate and absorb hydrogen. Tenth, the current through the resistor is increased and the cycle starts all over again. I do not see any need for an RF generator. I think the system can self sustain if the temperature is hot enough, but the problem is that there could be a runaway explosion if that happens. Also, I do not see how the reaction runs awa
