RE: [Vo]: f13C or faux13C

[JonesBeene]

Interesting comments here, thanks.

I do believe that NMR is the way to go for easiest and most reliable detection, 
especially with carbon. Pure carbon should have only one peak – 13C. Nothing 
else.

Basically there would be two kinds of carbon to test – old and young. Old 
carbon as defined herein comes from mineral graphite and is at least 100 
million years in the making, while young carbon comes from activated carbon 
(made from charcoal biomass, thus comparatively young). Both must be pure 
carbon. 

The premise would be that young carbon has one peak only - since most of the 
13C in young carbon is the isotope, just as expected, BUT in old carbon a 
significant fraction is 12C+UDH and this gives two peaks.

In short, the actual NMR signature of young would have only one peak, and that 
of old would have two peaks and it does not get much simpler than that. 

The two peaks could look something like methanol, actually. There is a simple 
route for testing called “benchtop NMR”. This one is on my “wish list”.
http://www.nanalysis.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjwlrnNBRBMEiwApKU4PEbIHuJZGUNC8CFU4ibwPuplnUU4h2204xt0yRJB1iL9B89RWh5Z8BoC49kQAvD_BwE
Nice. They have a database page with spectra which can be used as 
identification. There is a page for carbon 13C compounds – check out ethanol. 
This is what I would expect to see from graphite with significant UDH – two 
peaks instead of one. The UDH should look like a proton in NMR which is the 
second peak but it could be at a different frequency. 

From: bobcook39...@hotmail.com

The magnetic resonance states of the fC13 would be easy to test for and should 
say much about the nature of the entity, if it exists.   An unpaired electron 
in a 1p H(0) would certainly have a unique signature IMHO.  The key would be to 
get enough to test.  

From: Bob Higgins

As I understand it, there are two hydrino-like transitions that could occur, 
perhaps on a 12C atom.  Suppose that the 12C is subject to catalytic hydrino 
formation wherein one of its electron enters a (1/p) state.  Such an electron 
would enter an orbital around the nucleus that is smaller than the s orbital 
and would screen one of the protons from the remainder of the electrons.  This 
would cause it chemical and spectral properties to appear as 12B instead of 
12C.  This would be a very unusual find because real 12B decays with a 
half-life of 20ms and should not be seen in the experiment.  Finding a stable 
signature of 12B would be a likely indicator of formation of the hydrino state 
of 12C.
Now consider that a hydrino hydride ion, described by Mills as H-(1/p) could 
enter a hydrogen nucleus and bind so tightly as to become an innermost orbital 
below the s orbital.  A similar thing would happen in that this tightly bound 
negative charge would screen a proton as far as the remainder of the 12C 
electrons are concerned - it would have a mass of 13, but would chemically and 
spectrally appear as 13B, not 13C.  13B has the same uniqueness in discovery as 
the 12B - because real 13B has a half-life of only 17ms and hence should not be 
found in the experiment.  It would only be determined to be 13C accidentally if 
there were no spectra taken - I.E. in a high resolution mass spectrometer test 
only.  This aspect is certainly not out of the question, as 13B would not be 
anticipated to be found because real 13B would quickly decay most of the time 
to 13C anyway.  If they were to test for the x-ray spectra of B, perhaps the 
hydrino hydride of 12C could be detected.

Note, however, that 13C is stable and is about 1% of natural C.  It is not used 
for dating.  Interestingly, the natural variation of 13C is nearly +/-1%.  
Could the hydrino hydride of 12C cause a measurement uncertainty in the 
isotopic ratio of 13C/12C?

I estimate that hydrino states would be as stable in atoms with multiple 
electrons as they are with hydrogen having a single electron.  The reason is 
that the additional electrons of, say a 12C, provide a possible means of 
evanescent coupling to the innermost (hydrino) electron and provides some 
opportunity to transfer energy without photon transfer and relieve the hydrino 
state.

RE: [Vo]: f13C or faux13C

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

The magnetic resonance states of the fC13 would be easy to test for and should 
say much about the nature of the entity, if it exists.   An unpaired electron 
in a 1p H(0) would certainly have a unique signature IMHO.  The key would be to 
get enough to test.

Bob Cook

From: Bob Higgins
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 9:25 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: f13C or faux13C

As I understand it, there are two hydrino-like transitions that could occur, 
perhaps on a 12C atom.  Suppose that the 12C is subject to catalytic hydrino 
formation wherein one of its electron enters a (1/p) state.  Such an electron 
would enter an orbital around the nucleus that is smaller than the s orbital 
and would screen one of the protons from the remainder of the electrons.  This 
would cause it chemical and spectral properties to appear as 12B instead of 
12C.  This would be a very unusual find because real 12B decays with a 
half-life of 20ms and should not be seen in the experiment.  Finding a stable 
signature of 12B would be a likely indicator of formation of the hydrino state 
of 12C.
Now consider that a hydrino hydride ion, described by Mills as H-(1/p) could 
enter a hydrogen nucleus and bind so tightly as to become an innermost orbital 
below the s orbital.  A similar thing would happen in that this tightly bound 
negative charge would screen a proton as far as the remainder of the 12C 
electrons are concerned - it would have a mass of 13, but would chemically and 
spectrally appear as 13B, not 13C.  13B has the same uniqueness in discovery as 
the 12B - because real 13B has a half-life of only 17ms and hence should not be 
found in the experiment.  It would only be determined to be 13C accidentally if 
there were no spectra taken - I.E. in a high resolution mass spectrometer test 
only.  This aspect is certainly not out of the question, as 13B would not be 
anticipated to be found because real 13B would quickly decay most of the time 
to 13C anyway.  If they were to test for the x-ray spectra of B, perhaps the 
hydrino hydride of 12C could be detected.

Note, however, that 13C is stable and is about 1% of natural C.  It is not used 
for dating.  Interestingly, the natural variation of 13C is nearly +/-1%.  
Could the hydrino hydride of 12C cause a measurement uncertainty in the 
isotopic ratio of 13C/12C?

I estimate that hydrino states would be as stable in atoms with multiple 
electrons as they are with hydrogen having a single electron.  The reason is 
that the additional electrons of, say a 12C, provide a possible means of 
evanescent coupling to the innermost (hydrino) electron and provides some 
opportunity to transfer energy without photon transfer and relieve the hydrino 
state.
Bob

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 9:44 AM, JonesBeene 
mailto:jone...@pacbell.net>> wrote:
Here is a detail which came up earlier – the embedded proton concept works best 
in the context of the Mills’ “hydrino hydride” where the proton and two very 
tight electrons combine into a stable ion which replaces carbon’s innermost 
orbital electron. The innermost orbital of carbon would need to have a binding 
strength which is resonant with dense hydrogen in order to do this so Rydberg 
values come into play.

Holmlid, Mills, Miley, Mayer, Meulenberg and others who have written on the 
subject of dense hydrogen have different thinking on the details. They could 
all be partly correct with Mills being the most accurate for this detail (but 
he does not mention 13C).

The innermost carbon electron is bound at slightly less than 490 eV which is 
exactly the 18th Rydberg multiple… yet it is not clear how significant that 
detail is in the context of coal formation.

-

In prior thread, the premise was suggested that there are two different species 
(allotropes) of carbon which are being called carbon-13. One of the two species 
is the normal isotope with 7 neutrons, but the second is carbon-12 with a 
deeply embedded proton of UDH (the ultra-dense hydrogen) of Holmlid.

This result has happened with some types of carbon during the 100 million year 
formation process of decay from ancient vegetation under pressure in coal beds, 
especially anthracite and mineral graphite. This type of coal is often used to 
manufacture the kinds of graphite where physical anomalies have been witnessed.

Here is another piece of evidence which points to a thermal anomaly with carbon 
which could be explained with this hypothesis. (Thanks to Can for the link)

The Replication of an Experiment Which Produced Anomalous Excess 
Energy.pdf
More on those details later…

Re: [Vo]:f13C or faux13C

[mixent]

In reply to  JonesBeene's message of Sun, 27 Aug 2017 16:26:31 -0700:
Hi,

Following on from Bob's comments, it occurs to me that a small neutral Hydrino,
which has large magnetic moment, might be attracted to nuclei, with an odd mass
number, magnetically.
The force of attraction would increase as it got closer, and if it were small
enough to hang on to its electron till it got within range of the nuclear force,
might go some way toward explaining the transmutation results that have been
seen in LENR.
Note that if Mills' disproportionation reactions are real, then such very small
Hydrinos are readily formed.

>Hi Bob,
>
>Thanks for your analysis and let me clear up one detail.
>
> I did not make it clear enough that I am not suggesting the Holmlid version, 
> nor the Mills version, nor the Miley version of dense hydrogen - but a 
> composite, where the charged UDH- is a negative particle (aka hydrino 
> hydride) which actually fully replaces one of the two inner orbital electrons 
> of carbon. A neutral UDH would not work, as you suggest.
>
>This would mean that the major flaw of the premise becomes the fact that there 
>is a valid reason why the inner orbital cannot be replaced with a much heavier 
>particle with the same charge. 
>
>If there is such a reason, then the proposition fails unless there are other 
>routes.
>
>
>
>From: Bob Higgins
>
>There seems to be a number of flaws in this hypothesis.  First of all, the 
>only way a shrunken neutral hydrogen can "hang around" in an atom of 12C is if 
>it has become in range of the strong force of the nucleus.  In that case, it 
>would become a part of the nucleus and would be ripped to pieces in the 
>process.  It is much more likely that it would be quickly scattered out of the 
>12C atom.  If a hydrino hydride had entered the atom and became a part of the 
>lowest orbital in 12C, it would screen one of the positive charges and would 
>appear as 13B, which would really be unusual because the half-life of real 13B 
>is only 17ms.  The only way a hydrino hydride entering a nucleus could appear 
>as 13C is if it entered an atom of 12N.  However, 12N has a half-life of only 
>11 ms, so you wouldn't find any 12N hanging around for a hydrino hydride to 
>enter….As I understand it, Holmlid's work proposes no UDH in an atomic form - 
>only in a cluster form.  So, he is completely out of this proposition to
>begin.
>
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:f13C or faux13C

[Axil Axil]

What might carry the Ultra dense hydrogen in the Rossi fuel is its lithium
content. A method used in hydogen storage is nanoconfinement where lithium
hydride is encapsulated in other material to protect it. The lithium
particles in the Lugano fuel assay had many other elements incorporated in
its structure.


See


https://www.rdmag.com/news/2017/02/nanoconfinement-shows-promise-hydrogen-powered-vehicles


>From the Lugano fuel assay, the percent of sodium or magnesium are high in
the lithium complex. These elements could have been used to produce
nanoconfinement of the Lithium hydride and possibly the UDH nanoparticle
itself.


Also


The Lugano reports states as follows:


"Besides the analyzed elements it has been found that the fuel also
contains rather high concentrations of C, Ca, Cl, Fe, Mg, Mn and these are
not found in the ash."


[image: nano_0.jpg?itok=CEvdks7-]

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 6:54 PM, Bob Higgins 
wrote:

> Jones,
>
> There seems to be a number of flaws in this hypothesis.  First of all, the
> only way a shrunken neutral hydrogen can "hang around" in an atom of 12C is
> if it has become in range of the strong force of the nucleus.  In that
> case, it would become a part of the nucleus and would be ripped to pieces
> in the process.  It is much more likely that it would be quickly scattered
> out of the 12C atom.  If a hydrino hydride had entered the atom and became
> a part of the lowest orbital in 12C, it would screen one of the positive
> charges and would appear as 13B, which would really be unusual because the
> half-life of real 13B is only 17ms.  The only way a hydrino hydride
> entering a nucleus could appear as 13C is if it entered an atom of 12N.
> However, 12N has a half-life of only 11 ms, so you wouldn't find any 12N
> hanging around for a hydrino hydride to enter.
>
> As I understand it, Holmlid's work proposes no UDH in an atomic form -
> only in a cluster form.  So, he is completely out of this proposition to
> begin.
>
> On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 4:35 PM, JonesBeene  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Here is a premise which may be worth consideration, even if the evidence for 
>> it is not yet certain and the details are fluid. After all, this is vortex – 
>> not Fusion Technology… plus… the proposition is falsifiable, should it 
>> gather any traction.
>>
>>
>>
>> The premise involves the isotope carbon-13 and its abundance/identity. 
>> Standard physics says that 13C is 1.1% of all carbon. However, in fossils 
>> the ratio can range from as high as 5% to almost neglible. This shouldn’t 
>> happen with a true isotope. Likewise many plants either exclude it via 
>> fractionation or else exploit it (as they have vastly different signatures). 
>> Anomalies of 13C are also huge in meteorites –larger than other common 
>> elements such as iron. This variability of isotope ratios is problematic but 
>> has been “kept in the closet” so to speak - since one technique for dating 
>> of fossils depends on the assumption of a steady ratio.
>>
>>
>>
>> The present premise - which attempts to explain the isotope anomalies and 
>> other oddities of carbon (esp magnetic) is that some of the apparent 13C in 
>> nature is not really an isotope at all - but instead is normal 12C plus UDH 
>> tightly bound as a unit – to be explained. If even a few ppm were not 
>> isotopic, then among other things, the economics of coal and coal cleaning 
>> become favorable.
>>
>>
>>
>> The work of Leif Holmlid and others has suggested the possibility of a very 
>> dense form of hydrogen labeled as UDH or ultradense hydrogen. The hydrogen 
>> isomer could act more like a neutron in properties than atomic hydrogen and 
>> has been called a “virtual neutron.” In a departure from Holmlid, Miley has 
>> suggested that a version of this species is inverted and mobile as a single 
>> neutron-like unit instead of as a cluster. Then… there is Mills who has a 
>> charged version with an extra electron. All of these views can be merged.
>>
>>
>>
>> The lifetime of this species could be very long. The compact spatial 
>> dimension would indicate that UDH could “nest” in the inner orbital of a few 
>> host low Z atoms of the proper IP resonance. UDH- (aka hydrino hydride) when 
>> bound as 13C would increase by only one part in 100,000 the dimensions of a 
>> carbon atom, and would not drastically affect the redox chemistry of the 
>> host. The host atoms would have a measured mass increase of 1 AMU.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thus a measureable mass difference (deficit) exists between this faux-13C 
>> and true 13C to provide a way to validate or falsify this suggestion. 
>> Falsifiability is most important if this is to gain traction.
>>
>>
>>
>> When hydrogen is densified catalytically into UDH – which would be expected 
>> under the parameters of coal formation for instance… decaying vegetation 
>> provides all the ingredients, even the iron oxide catalyst. A new type of 
>> compressed molecular species becomes what is measured as 13C. Thus,

Re: [Vo]:f13C or faux13C

[Axil Axil]

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2016/ph241/yoon1/

The Curious Story of the Muon-Catalyzed Fusion Reaction

The Curious fact is that LENR produces mostly muons from the energy that it
generates from nuclear reactions and very little heat.

These muons push out covalent electrons that bind chemical compounds
together and fuse that molecule into a heavier element. What comes out of
the transmutation process is a reflection of the chemical elements that go
into that reaction. In this why, chemistry controls the products of
transmutation.

What happens in LENR is a Muon-Catalyzed Fusion Chain Reaction where muons
beget many more muons. In this way tons of carbon can be converted to even
more tons of iron without much heat produced in all that fusion. The wild
proliferation of muon production is truly staggering but the electric arc
smelter does not vaporize in a mushroom cloud the size of a few countries.
The foundry workers do not die of gamma radiation exposure and nothing is
amiss except more iron is produced by the ton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgr4aoZZ4fI

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 6:35 PM, JonesBeene  wrote:

>
>
> Here is a premise which may be worth consideration, even if the evidence for 
> it is not yet certain and the details are fluid. After all, this is vortex – 
> not Fusion Technology… plus… the proposition is falsifiable, should it gather 
> any traction.
>
>
>
> The premise involves the isotope carbon-13 and its abundance/identity. 
> Standard physics says that 13C is 1.1% of all carbon. However, in fossils the 
> ratio can range from as high as 5% to almost neglible. This shouldn’t happen 
> with a true isotope. Likewise many plants either exclude it via fractionation 
> or else exploit it (as they have vastly different signatures). Anomalies of 
> 13C are also huge in meteorites –larger than other common elements such as 
> iron. This variability of isotope ratios is problematic but has been “kept in 
> the closet” so to speak - since one technique for dating of fossils depends 
> on the assumption of a steady ratio.
>
>
>
> The present premise - which attempts to explain the isotope anomalies and 
> other oddities of carbon (esp magnetic) is that some of the apparent 13C in 
> nature is not really an isotope at all - but instead is normal 12C plus UDH 
> tightly bound as a unit – to be explained. If even a few ppm were not 
> isotopic, then among other things, the economics of coal and coal cleaning 
> become favorable.
>
>
>
> The work of Leif Holmlid and others has suggested the possibility of a very 
> dense form of hydrogen labeled as UDH or ultradense hydrogen. The hydrogen 
> isomer could act more like a neutron in properties than atomic hydrogen and 
> has been called a “virtual neutron.” In a departure from Holmlid, Miley has 
> suggested that a version of this species is inverted and mobile as a single 
> neutron-like unit instead of as a cluster. Then… there is Mills who has a 
> charged version with an extra electron. All of these views can be merged.
>
>
>
> The lifetime of this species could be very long. The compact spatial 
> dimension would indicate that UDH could “nest” in the inner orbital of a few 
> host low Z atoms of the proper IP resonance. UDH- (aka hydrino hydride) when 
> bound as 13C would increase by only one part in 100,000 the dimensions of a 
> carbon atom, and would not drastically affect the redox chemistry of the 
> host. The host atoms would have a measured mass increase of 1 AMU.
>
>
>
> Thus a measureable mass difference (deficit) exists between this faux-13C and 
> true 13C to provide a way to validate or falsify this suggestion. 
> Falsifiability is most important if this is to gain traction.
>
>
>
> When hydrogen is densified catalytically into UDH – which would be expected 
> under the parameters of coal formation for instance… decaying vegetation 
> provides all the ingredients, even the iron oxide catalyst. A new type of 
> compressed molecular species becomes what is measured as 13C. Thus, we have a 
> natural process, aided by a catalyst (iron oxide)which would present a tight 
> molecule of supposed AMU 13 which would not be broken by normal ionization in 
> a mass spectrometer (although other electrons would ionize). The UDH- would 
> be bound at ~490 eV.
>
>
>
> It might be possible to harvest the "faux-13C” (f13C) from crushed coal using 
> magnetic (diamagnetic) separation of coal nano-powder. The f13C could have 
> very valuable properties due to the potential energy of the UDH.
>
>
>
> One aim of this – if you haven’t guessed it, is to find a both a additional 
> source of LENR energy and also a way to justify the cost of extreme 
> nano-cleaning of coal… rather the BS we hear from the coal industry about 
> “clean coal”.
>
>
>

RE: [Vo]:f13C or faux13C

[JonesBeene]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your analysis and let me clear up one detail.

 I did not make it clear enough that I am not suggesting the Holmlid version, 
nor the Mills version, nor the Miley version of dense hydrogen - but a 
composite, where the charged UDH- is a negative particle (aka hydrino hydride) 
which actually fully replaces one of the two inner orbital electrons of carbon. 
A neutral UDH would not work, as you suggest.

This would mean that the major flaw of the premise becomes the fact that there 
is a valid reason why the inner orbital cannot be replaced with a much heavier 
particle with the same charge. 

If there is such a reason, then the proposition fails unless there are other 
routes.



From: Bob Higgins

There seems to be a number of flaws in this hypothesis.  First of all, the only 
way a shrunken neutral hydrogen can "hang around" in an atom of 12C is if it 
has become in range of the strong force of the nucleus.  In that case, it would 
become a part of the nucleus and would be ripped to pieces in the process.  It 
is much more likely that it would be quickly scattered out of the 12C atom.  If 
a hydrino hydride had entered the atom and became a part of the lowest orbital 
in 12C, it would screen one of the positive charges and would appear as 13B, 
which would really be unusual because the half-life of real 13B is only 17ms.  
The only way a hydrino hydride entering a nucleus could appear as 13C is if it 
entered an atom of 12N.  However, 12N has a half-life of only 11 ms, so you 
wouldn't find any 12N hanging around for a hydrino hydride to enter….As I 
understand it, Holmlid's work proposes no UDH in an atomic form - only in a 
cluster form.  So, he is completely out of this proposition to begin.