Re: [Vo]:Nature India on Bubble Fusion
On Sep 1, 2008, at 5:39 PM, R C Macaulay wrote: Hold it down to a roar Jed, we're all grown boys and girls and understand the full component of racism. I just felt the subject was not a subject for the forum. If racism is to be discussed. they can create a proper forum to address the specific issue. Sufficent to limit it to corruption and academic suppression.. whew! ain't that enough ... This is not merely a case of blatant racism, it is a case of racism affecting scientists and the science itself. It is a case of destruction of academic freedom and integrity, and it is an issue which has reached the highest levels of scientific journalism. This case is scientific infamy at an international level, and thus far apparently sanctioned by a major academic institution. This case also relates directly to alternative means of creating fusion, bubble fusion in fact, the very topic that initiated the list. It strikes me as difficult to come up with a more relevant topic for this list. It is clearly far more important and relevant than the general politics and religion issues that repeatedly creep into discussion here. In any case, racism of this kind should not be laughed off, especially institutionalized racism. I agree with Jed. Racism should be confronted. It is not a joke. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Nature India on Bubble Fusion
I agree with both Horace and Jed, this is serious and should be confronted at every level possible. The initial conflict appeared to be motivated by simple professional jealousy. Now the conflict has gotten more serious because a major university cannot set proper standards for its faculty. The issue of whether the science is real or not has now become much less important. Nevertheless, the fact that apparently good science led to this sorry state points to several serious deficiencies in the system used to evaluate science. Except for popular outrage, no agency seems to be able to intervene in this mess to reach a fair solution. Ed On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:13 AM, Horace Heffner wrote: On Sep 1, 2008, at 5:39 PM, R C Macaulay wrote: Hold it down to a roar Jed, we're all grown boys and girls and understand the full component of racism. I just felt the subject was not a subject for the forum. If racism is to be discussed. they can create a proper forum to address the specific issue. Sufficent to limit it to corruption and academic suppression.. whew! ain't that enough ... This is not merely a case of blatant racism, it is a case of racism affecting scientists and the science itself. It is a case of destruction of academic freedom and integrity, and it is an issue which has reached the highest levels of scientific journalism. This case is scientific infamy at an international level, and thus far apparently sanctioned by a major academic institution. This case also relates directly to alternative means of creating fusion, bubble fusion in fact, the very topic that initiated the list. It strikes me as difficult to come up with a more relevant topic for this list. It is clearly far more important and relevant than the general politics and religion issues that repeatedly creep into discussion here. In any case, racism of this kind should not be laughed off, especially institutionalized racism. I agree with Jed. Racism should be confronted. It is not a joke. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Nature India on Bubble Fusion
The extinguished Vort membership can debate the issues till the cows come home, and that we have done. What I'd like to know is: Officially, what happens next? Legally speaking, what does Taleyarkhan do next? Or is it now in Purdue's court to respond. I've found myself wondering if Purdue is hoping they won't have to, as if they might attempt to infer it's beneath them to respond to Taleyarkhan's unflattering accusations. Perhaps Purdue is hoping this sordid mess will go away if they simply ignore it long enough. I assume that is not likely to happen. Jones, what does your past-life as a champion lawyer for the downtrodden suggest is likely to happen next. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com
Re: [Vo]:Nature India on Bubble Fusion
SVJ: As far as Seth Putterman, PhD and his meddling asst. Naranjo (not the fruit AKAIK) are concerned... not to mention the politician, what's-his-name - who got involved in this soap-opera in a most inappropriate and underhanded way One of the many common law torts which comes to mind which have been used to correct this kind of situation is called: INTENTIONAL INTERFERENCE WITH ECONOMIC RELATIONS http://wps.prenhall.com/wps/media/objects/418/428941/mcinnes_law_1ce_ch11.pdf Politicians are NOT immune. Anyone's job, even at a University, is an economic relationship, as are the possibility of new businesses, and/or royalties and consulting fees ... such as those which even Putterman himself had at one time hoped to reap from a patent which could be circumvented by RT's improvements. There have been hundred million dollar verdicts awarded when this tort has been invoked, so it should not be taken lightly... Seth Putterman's weak and limited patent for a sonofusion device was granted in 1997 and will run out before he gets royalties anyway: US 5,659,173: Converting acoustic energy into useful other energy forms and he did not anticipate RT's improvement, nor the others, which could put those other inventors (not SP) in the cat-bird's seat of sonofusion if it becomes commercial ... ergo - perhaps Putterman would sacrifice disgracing the whole sonofusion technology in deference to his later crystal fusion patent; ...but it is a very complex situation, and who knows what else is involved? I do not even want to know. The whole sordid affair is utterly reprehensible and juvenile. No matter who is ultimately correct on the scientific facts - those are the important thing and are taking a back seat to the drama and professional jealousies which will soon be available on Court-TV, most likely. --- OrionWorks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The extinguished Vort membership can debate the issues till the cows come home, and that we have done. What I'd like to know is: Officially, what happens next? Legally speaking, what does Taleyarkhan do next? Or is it now in Purdue's court to respond. I've found myself wondering if Purdue is hoping they won't have to, as if they might attempt to infer it's beneath them to respond to Taleyarkhan's unflattering accusations. Perhaps Purdue is hoping this sordid mess will go away if they simply ignore it long enough. I assume that is not likely to happen. Jones, what does your past-life as a champion lawyer for the downtrodden suggest is likely to happen next. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com
Re: [Vo]:Nature India on Bubble Fusion
For those who might be interested you can read brief bios and get photo portraits of the major stars in this drama out at: https://engineering.purdue.edu/NE/People/faculty.html Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Nature India on Bubble Fusion
I am dissapointed that Tele would announce the issue as racial. While the individual personalities are obviously in opposition I shudder at the reaction this publicity affords Purdue as a University. I should not have happened... now .. it will reverberate across the science world at a time we most need unity. Richard
Re: [Vo]:Nature India on Bubble Fusion
R C Macaulay wrote: I am dissapointed that Tele would announce the issue as racial. It was racist. It was also plain vanilla corruption and academic suppression. See the Mize affadavit: http://newenergytimes.com/BubbleTrouble/2008MizeDarlaJ.AffadavitFeb2.pdfhttp://newenergytimes.com/BubbleTrouble/2008MizeDarlaJ.AffadavitFeb2.pdf - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Nature India on Bubble Fusion
True Jed, best if it the wording were limited to ...corruption and academic suppression. I am disturbed by the introduction off the racial component. Richard - Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com ; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Nature India on Bubble Fusion R C Macaulay wrote: I am dissapointed that Tele would announce the issue as racial. It was racist. It was also plain vanilla corruption and academic suppression. See the Mize affadavit: http://newenergytimes.com/BubbleTrouble/2008MizeDarlaJ.AffadavitFeb2.pdf - Jed -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1645 - Release Date: 9/1/2008 7:19 AM
Re: [Vo]:Nature India on Bubble Fusion
On Sep 1, 2008, at 12:46 PM, R C Macaulay wrote: True Jed, best if it the wording were limited to ...corruption and academic suppression. I am disturbed by the introduction off the racial component. Richard Read item 26. I would call referring to his staff members as stupid Indians, useless Indians and stating that he hated Indians as clearly racist and prejudicial. If Mize's affidavit is true, then Purdue is an not only a national but an international disgrace if it doesn't remedy the situation quickly. Of course it is not an affidavit is it is not duly sworn and notarized. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Nature India on Bubble Fusion
On Sep 1, 2008, at 12:46 PM, R C Macaulay wrote: True Jed, best if it the wording were limited to ...corruption and academic suppression. I am disturbed by the introduction off the racial component. Richard This is only intended to clarify my prior hurried and somewhat heated remarks, and to correct some typos. If you think prejudice is not involved, then read item 26 of Mize's affidavit: http://newenergytimes.com/BubbleTrouble/2008MizeDarlaJ.AffadavitFeb2.pdf I would say Dr. Tsoukalas referring to his Indian staff members as stupid Indians, useless Indians, and Dr. Tsoukalas further stating that he hated Indians, if true, would be clearly racist and prejudicial on his part. If Mize's affidavit is true in this regard, then Purdue is not only a national but an international disgrace if it doesn't remedy the situation quickly. Of course despite her declaring it so, Mize's statement is is not an affidavit unless it is not duly sworn and notarized. All the same, Mize's statement strongly supports Dr. Talyarkin's claim in Nature of blatant discrimination against Indian professors, as well as the attempted covering up of the discriminatory acts against Dr. Talyarkin by proceeding further with charges of which Dr. Talyarkin is already cleared. See: http://www.nature.com/nindia/2008/080901/full/nindia. 2008.271.html;jsessionid=ra8or419yujy Dr. Talyarkin is so right to say that his sort of treatment cannot be tolerated in a US university. It seems clear at this point the congressional committee previously involved in this case should take further action to see things are made right. Purdue President Martin Jischke's letter to congress discussed the removal of the head of the school who initially brought the allegations to the University's attention. See: http://newenergytimes.com/BubbleTrouble/NETBubbleFusionSpecialReport.pdf It indeed seems appropriate, at a minimum, for Purdue to remove the offending parties, and in this case the evidence at hand shows Dr. Talyarkin is not the offending party. Dragging out this kind of nauseating case in esteemed publications like Nature, with high visibility in India, is not in the best national interest. Hopefully this case will be resolved with all possible speed, and all due apologies. It is an embarrassment to Purdue, to the US, and to the scientific community. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Nature India on Bubble Fusion
On Sep 1, 2008, at 12:46 PM, R C Macaulay wrote: True Jed, best if it the wording were limited to ...corruption and academic suppression. I am disturbed by the introduction off the racial component. Richard If you think prejudice is not involved, then read item 26 of Mize's affidavit: http://newenergytimes.com/BubbleTrouble/2008MizeDarlaJ.AffadavitFeb2.pdf I would say Dr. Tsoukalas referring to his Indian staff members as stupid Indians, useless Indians, and Dr. Tsoukalas further stating that he hated Indians, if true, would be clearly racist and prejudicial on his part. If Mize's affidavit is true in this regard, then Purdue is not only a national but an international disgrace if it doesn't remedy the situation quickly. Of course despite her declaring it so, Mize's statement is is not an affidavit unless it is duly sworn and notarized. All the same, Mize's statement strongly supports Dr. Talyarkin's claim in Nature of blatant discrimination against Indian professors, as well as the attempted covering up of the discriminatory acts against Dr. Talyarkin by proceeding further with charges of which Dr. Talyarkin is already cleared. See: http://www.nature.com/nindia/2008/080901/full/nindia. 2008.271.html;jsessionid=ra8or419yujy Dr. Talyarkin is so right to say that his sort of treatment cannot be tolerated in a US university. It seems clear at this point the congressional committee previously involved in this case should take further action to see things are made right. Purdue President Martin Jischke's letter to congress discussed the removal of the head of the school who initially brought the allegations to the University's attention. See: http://newenergytimes.com/BubbleTrouble/NETBubbleFusionSpecialReport.pdf It indeed seems appropriate, at a minimum, for Purdue to remove the offending parties, and in this case the evidence at hand shows Dr. Talyarkin is not the offending party. Dragging out this kind of nauseating case in esteemed publications like Nature, with high visibility in India, is not in the best national interest. Hopefully this case will be resolved with all possible speed, and all due apologies. It is an embarrassment to Purdue, to the US, and to the scientific community. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Nature India on Bubble Fusion
R C Macaulay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: True Jed, best if it the wording were limited to ...corruption and academic suppression. I am disturbed by the introduction off the racial component. Ditto Horace's response. Frankly, I do not understand your sentiments. Why should anyone hesitate to say this is blatant racism? One of the lessons of the 1960s is that when these things happen it is best to shout it from the rooftops. That's the only way to make the racists crawl back under their rocks. Prior to the '60s, some victims of racism or sexism felt ashamed and did not speak out. Perhaps they were internalizing the attack, and blamed themselves. Some people have gone too far the other direction, and become professional victims. They look for slight to exaggerate and blow out of proportion. Such people, I think, have not experienced the real thing. Taleyarkhan definitely has experienced it, as have many other Indian people in the U.S. Anyone who doubts that racism is still widespread in the U.S. should read about events in Obama's campaign, and read the comments Obama evokes in discussion forums even in places like the Washington Post, where extreme messages are censored. Even I find it a disconcerting, and I have lived in the South most of my life, and heard countless racist comments. Some people here still do not even realize they are being racist when they say outrageous things. A white woman in Atlanta, I think it was, recent said: I am not racist but I do not ever want to see a black man as president. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Nature India on Bubble Fusion
Hold it down to a roar Jed, we're all grown boys and girls and understand the full component of racism. I just felt the subject was not a subject for the forum. If racism is to be discussed. they can create a proper forum to address the specific issue. Sufficent to limit it to corruption and academic suppression.. whew! ain't that enough ... What's the old line of Mark Twain.. de fools in town are on our side.. and ain't that enough for any town? You learn to laugh off ethnic slurs or you become embittered. The Texas AM Aggies teach it best.. tell 'em an Aggie joke and they do you one better.. Most of the early Aggie jokes migrated from Polish jokes that ended in fights.. Aggies laugh them off.. nothing else works,, just ask Thomas Jefferson. Jed wrote, Frankly, I do not understand your sentiments. Why should anyone hesitate to say this is blatant racism?
Re: [Vo]:Nature India on Bubble Fusion
The Indian matter is important, not because of race, but because of culture. Taleyarkhan's Indian background played into what happened because he was caught by surprise by what happened and how things quickly spiraled out of control. He was not accustomed to dealing with media in the way most of them dealt with him. On March 1, 2006 at two in the afternoon, Seth Putterman of UCLA insinuated fraud during an in-person DARPA review at Purdue regarding Taleyarkhan's work. About two hours later, Eugenie Samuel Reich contacted Taleyarkhan to ask him about Putterman's insinuations. From what I know of Taleyarkhan, his experience with media in India did not give him any reason to expect the assault that was on the way. When Reich made the contact with Taleyarkhan, had he been more familiar with the culture of American and British journalism, it is my opinion that alarm bells would have started ringing in his head and he would have raised bloody hell; to DARPA, to UCLA, to the Nature editors and to the Purdue Administrators. But Taleyarkhan is of Indian descent, that was not in his nature. Steve
