[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Dave’s Demon and Radiation Free LENR
I try to cover this subject in the post: Repulsive interactions between neutrons I believe that the multiple particles that can do the dismantling of the nucleus need only be simple electrons. Maybe the large number of neutrons above the proton number magic ratio in the nickel isotopes Ni62 and Ni64 makes these isotopes particularly susceptible to nuclear instability in cold fission. Cheers: Axil On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 12:16 AM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Axil Axil's message of Sun, 1 Jul 2012 00:37:31 -0400: Hi, [snip] https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6id5Hf-xMWOYXVjekJCN1ZkQk0/edit?pli=1 In slide 27 and 28, there is evidence that a large amount of light elements are being formed. This can only happen if some type of fission is also occurring. I agree. Note that with few exceptions, only the very heavy elements fission upon addition of a neutron. Hence one might expect addition of a single proton to follow approximately the same pattern. In order to get fission from a mid-field element like Nickel, one would probably have to add multiple particles concurrently, e.g. one or more Hydrino molecules. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Dave’s Demon and Radiation Free LENR
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6id5Hf-xMWOYXVjekJCN1ZkQk0/edit?pli=1 In slide 27 and 28, there is evidence that a large amount of light elements are being formed. This can only happen if some type of fission is also occurring. On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 12:22 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: When heat is produced, so are transmuted elements. f/h creation would not produce transmuted elements. On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 12:01 AM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Axil Axil's message of Tue, 26 Jun 2012 04:07:03 -0400: Hi, [snip] In the Rossi reaction, the lack of radioactive unstable nuclei tells me that the proton has little or no kinetic energy when it enters a nickel nucleus. This implies that the coulomb barrier has been removed long before the penetration of the nucleus by the proton. Gentle motion isn't enough to preclude gamma radiation. The very entry of the proton releases at least 6 MeV, ample to result in gamma emission from an excited nucleus. The only examples of relatively low gamma emission that are seen in other reactions are when the energy is removed by a fast particle before gamma emission can take place. This seems to me like the most likely path in this case too, since it involves no new physics, and some low energy radiation has been reported. I suspect that the primary reason that Rossi's reactor produces so little radiation is that most of the energy flows from f/H creation, with very little coming from actual nuclear reactions, and those few that do occur produce either a fast proton or a fast electron, or possibly multiple fast particles. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Dave’s Demon and Radiation Free LENR
On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 7:10 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: I've always wondered if this were a red herring designed to lead astray those intent upon creating bombs. ;) Creating pressure with x-rays does sound highly implausible, when you stop to think about it. I wouldn't be surprised at all. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Dave’s Demon and Radiation Free LENR
An interesting thought occurred to me earlier today. The absorption of a proton by a nucleus should be considered an elastic event. All of the energy and momentum imparted upon the proton by the combination of coulomb force and then strong force should be conserved. The energy radiated by the accelerated proton charge during the event is the only outlet path initially. If we assume that most of the 8 MeV or so of binding energy remains with the proton as it is accelerated rapidly toward the nucleus then it will collide with a violent impact. If the target nucleus is nickel 62 the combination becomes copper 63 with a lot of excess energy. It seems reasonable to consider that the kinetic energy of the proton would become spread over the entire group of nucleons in some manner. I picture a bell or drum when I think of the energy distribution where there could easily be many resonate modes excited by this impulsive strike. It is my understanding that any accelerating charged particle such as an electron or proton radiates electromagnetic energy. Also, all of the linear systems that I am aware of that are complex with many resonances oscillate at various sinusoidal frequencies. If the protons within the copper 63 nucleus are oscillating in this manner then they would radiate away the excess energy at a decay rate that depends upon the degree of external coupling for each resonate mode. Further, the magnitude of the output gamma spectrum would depend upon which modes exist and are excited by the impact. The conservation of momentum should also limit the possible resonate modes(think of the swinging metal balls toy). This hypothesis should be testable by analysis of the gamma spectrum. The isomer question keeps nagging me since it suggests that the nucleus must have two stable states that are at different energy levels. The only mental picture that I can draw is the one you mention where the nucleus has a different physical distribution of its protons and neutrons. This seems strange since one might expect a decay event to occur in a fairly short time frame to arrive at the lowest energy state. Actually I think that is what is happening! The main question remaining is to understand the time constant. Once I gave significant thought to the concept of radiation from protons or other charged particles. A simple way to visualize that protons radiate exactly the same as electrons is to consider what happens when a hydrogen atom is accelerated. If you are located in the far field region then the radiation due to the electron acceleration is exactly canceled by that of the proton so that there is no net effect. We should give consideration to as many reaction schemes as possible. I think that the reaction you show would end in D2 when the two protons collide and then beta plus decay. You mention the attenuation aspect of the gamma ray emissions. That is my major hang up at this time. It just does not make sense that it is possible to catch the hounds once they escape the pen. I still do not have a mental picture of how the photoelectric effect works where a light photon that is many times larger than a single electron nevertheless only results in the emission of one electron from a metal surface. I need to find one of those quantum mechanics wands to wave over any problem to find a solution. My mind still thinks in a classical sense most of the time. Dave -Original Message- From: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Jun 28, 2012 12:25 am Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Dave’s Demon and Radiation Free LENR On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 10:36 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Remember that this is a hypothesis and the coupling between a significant number of protons has not been proven. Also, it needs to be shown that the gamma ray that is typically released at the moment that the proton enters the nucleus originates from the acceleration of that proton and not some other mechanism. We know that gammas are emitted by nuclei in other contexts, such as that of a metastable isomer. Such an isomer will give off a gamma at some point uncorrelated with a scattering event. The explanation I have read is that the nucleons are settling into a more stable arrangement. The image I have in my mind is of very dense, heavy magnets screeching a little as they snap into a more stable configuration. Given that metastable isomers emit gammas at the rate of some half life, I see no problem with a similar phenomenon happening at the moment of a fusion event. I have not read anything about protons giving off electromagnetic radiation, although I have wondered about it, in light of the usual explanation that EM radiation has its origin in the acceleration of electrostatically charged particles. I wonder if that explanation is a convenient approximation. In my reading so
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Dave’s Demon and Radiation Free LENR
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 11:16 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I still do not have a mental picture of how the photoelectric effect works where a light photon that is many times larger than a single electron nevertheless only results in the emission of one electron from a metal surface. I need to find one of those quantum mechanics wands to wave over any problem to find a solution. My mind still thinks in a classical sense most of the time. The other things you mentioned were interesting. But for the moment I'll address this point. Descending from higher to lower frequencies, nickel becomes effectively opaque to high-energy electromagnetic radiation at around 50 keV. Once nickel becomes opaque, one can imagine the normal scattering going on in an elongated, nano-scale cavity. I'm thinking of Compton scattering, stimulated emission, the photoelectric effect, and so on. But there's also the possibility of coherent x-ray scattering -- e.g., perhaps a mini x-ray laser or super radiance, a precursor. X-rays are what are used in atomic bombs to exert pressure on fusion fuel, so their credentials for creating pressure are good. All that is needed in this case is a minimum of pressure to bring the likelihood of fusion into a realistic, but not large, range. I'm thinking of something like popcorn in a microwave. Above 50 keV, it is possible that nonlinear effects within the cavity can still yield coherent scattering, even though nickel becomes more and more transparent. An example of the kind of thing that can happen is that x-rays can bounce around for high values of Q if the grazing incidence is slight, and the coherence of the scattering can be improved if there are atoms within the cavity. There are some interesting slides that were included in an earlier email that go into more detail. Unknown (i.e., miraculous) quantum effects may make the nickel cavity even more opaque even to photons above 50 keV. But let's assume that we have to get from 8 MeV to 50 keV in a hurry. That's a decrease of 160-fold. I have no idea how to do this realistically. But that's not a huge range in the big scheme of things, especially when you consider that nano-scale electronic components can generate radio frequencies. One of the nonlinear optical effects is heterodyning. You can combine a lower frequency carrier signal with a higher frequency beat signal and get some interesting effects. Here are two graphs, before and after heterodyning of the carrier signal (x-rays) with the beat signal (a gamma; hopefully I'm doing the calculation correctly): - Before: http://bit.ly/LCMs7E - After: http://bit.ly/N5ybMy You may need Google Chrome to see the graphs -- I'm not sure. The second signal still has a lot of stuff going on, but it's also got some much more macro-scale features now as well. Perhaps it is now able to interact with the environment of the cavity. Other nonlinear effects may take over from here, such as Raman amplification, where the signal photon, in the x-ray range in this case, is amplified by another signal photon in the same range produced by a nonlinear interaction with the pump photon, in this instance the gamma. All of this is obviously highly speculative. But it does not seem to be completely crazy. Eric
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Dave’s Demon and Radiation Free LENR
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 10:36 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Remember that this is a hypothesis and the coupling between a significant number of protons has not been proven. Also, it needs to be shown that the gamma ray that is typically released at the moment that the proton enters the nucleus originates from the acceleration of that proton and not some other mechanism. We know that gammas are emitted by nuclei in other contexts, such as that of a metastable isomer. Such an isomer will give off a gamma at some point uncorrelated with a scattering event. The explanation I have read is that the nucleons are settling into a more stable arrangement. The image I have in my mind is of very dense, heavy magnets screeching a little as they snap into a more stable configuration. Given that metastable isomers emit gammas at the rate of some half life, I see no problem with a similar phenomenon happening at the moment of a fusion event. I have not read anything about protons giving off electromagnetic radiation, although I have wondered about it, in light of the usual explanation that EM radiation has its origin in the acceleration of electrostatically charged particles. I wonder if that explanation is a convenient approximation. In my reading so far I have only seen EM radiation come from electrons and nuclei. About attenuation, I've been wondering how to get from 8 MeV or something in this range to the 50 to 100 keV that Andrea Rossi mentioned to the government employee in Florida (I'm just using his numbers as a representative example). I'm hoping to figure out how EM radiation at these lower energies might be fed into a self-sustaining thermodynamic system that yields energy primarily in the form of soft x-rays and EUV. For my own thinking I am currently exploring conventional reactions such as 2p - 2He - 2H + e+ + v. Note that 50 to 100 keV are hard x-rays. If this is a characteristic range, I do not imagine that you would want to keep an unshielded LENR reactor in your closet. I am optimistic about the attenuation problem; this might be due to having recently read enough phys.org articles to appreciate that there are some truly weird electromagnetic phenomena, especially at the quantum level. Microwaves on the order of 12cm cause a resonance in tiny water molecules. Lightening gives rise to EM radiation in the range of 10 to 500 Hz, at wavelengths of 30,000 to 600 km. And nano-sized electric components emit radio-frequency signals. I am hoping there might be some similar weirdness in reverse, such that a fusion event can be coerced into releasing lower-frequency radiation, or its byproducts can be safely wound down. There is a field called nonlinear optics, which includes a number of interesting leads: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_electrodynamics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_parametric_down_conversion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterodyne#Optical_heterodyning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raman_amplification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulational_instability I imagine that it is unlikely given the relative sizes involved, but there might even be some kind of gamma ray optics going on. I don't know about the proton ensemble. Do protons ever act in concert like that outside of a nucleus? Do they emit radiation? Eric
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I wrote: I'm hoping to figure out how EM radiation at these lower energies might be fed into a self-sustaining thermodynamic system that yields energy primarily in the form of soft x-rays and EUV. I meant infrared. The x-rays and EUV might be present in cavities, but not for the most part in the bulk of the substrate. Eric
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The experiments that these guys performed are quite remarkable if substantiated. I expect that some very strange things happen when large amounts of energy and fields converge upon a small device. It is not clear that this particular information is going to help me in my quest. There seems to be a rather wide gap between the LENR type environments that we are researching and this interesting monster. They might even have generated ball lightning, which if true, is a wonderful thing to explore. I hope to stick with the safer systems and avoid those that might cause serious bodily harm. Dave -Original Message- From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2012 1:59 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Dave’s Demon and Radiation Free LENR http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0101/0101089.pdf In exploding foils in water experiments that are close to what LeClair is doing, a heavy element is transmuted into multiple resultant elements; some lighter and some much heaver. Only heavy ion collisions in the many gigavolts kinetic energy range could come close to producing similar types of transmutations. From the text of the reference: The main regularities experimentally observed during the transformation of chemical elements can be summarized as follows. 1. The transformation occurs predominantly with even-even isotope, which leads to a notable distortion of the original isotope content. 2. Experiments with foils made of different chemical elements have shown that they transform into individual spectra of elements, and the statistical weight of each element is determined by concrete conditions. 3. For the set of chemical elements resulted from the transformation there is a minimal difference D Åb between the binding energy of the original element and the mean over spectrum binding energy of the formed elements. The difference of binding energies DEb = Eorig - Eform (with account of the real isotope ratios) calculated from mass-spectrometric measurements in different tests, falls within the range DEb 0.1 MeV/atom, which is clearly due to mass-spectrometric measurements errors. 4. No increase in the binding energy difference DEb as a function of the transformation fraction of the original chemical element has been detected. 5. All nuclei of chemical elements resulted from the transformation are in the ground (non-excited) state, i.e. no appreciable radioactivity has been found. If you find these types of experiment credible, how do they reflect your current thinking? Cheers: Axil On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 12:31 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Maybe the phrase gently drifting proton is a little mild. I would expect to see an extremely rapid acceleration of the proton once it becomes under the influence of the strong force. If there is no demon to hold it back and gently absorb the energy then the full binding energy is imparted upon the poor little particle. The relative magnitude of this energy imparted upon the proton should be within the range of that applied to its neutral friend (Neutron) that gets a free pass through the coulomb barrier. In the case of nickel 62 I note that this is about 6.84 MeV as it transforms into nickel 63 before the time delayed beta decay. I believe I understand Mill's model of the hydrogen atom where the orbits of the electrons are more tightly bound to the proton than with normal hydrogen. Even in this case the energy is quantized and can be tied with a one to one basis to the orbital jumps. Why would we not envision a proton as emitting photon radiation (gammas) in a similar manner? The strong force coupled with a much larger mass than an electron still might result in substantial acceleration. Is there any reason to believe that no radiation is emitted by the proton during this brief period? Another important question that I have no answer for is the amount of time that elapses between the time the proton enters the nucleus and the emission of the gamma radiation. If the delay is virtually nil then additional support is given to the possible proton source of this energy. An emission of energy by an excited nucleus should appear as a probability event with a measurable half life. Unfortunately, I can imagine how difficult it would be to make such a measurement under the extreme conditions present. Does anyone know if this experiment has been performed and verified? The beta decay events are at a snails pace and clearly not of the same category. The LeClair reactor is a unique device that I prefer to keep at a safe distance. If what they suggest is true then all types of unusual events are possible. It reminds me of a linear proton accelerator that blasts atoms to bits. I am still seeking the coupling mechanism that ties nearby free protons into one large web so that they can share some of the binding
Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Dave’s Demon and Radiation Free LENR
In this particular situation I was referring to a feature of hot fusion reactions where the parts that fuse contain the necessary kinetic energy that is converted into potential energy as the nuclei come closer together. The source of the kinetic energy is temperature in the millions of degrees range and the reactants are in the form of plasma as a result. The high temperature also forces the plasma to be far less dense than a crystalline solid. I recall that the density of atoms within a crystal is orders of magnitude more than within a hot plasma. This density information is available if you need a more accurate estimate but it will take a bit of effort to locate it. Perhaps one of the vorts will supply it from memory. My main reason for mentioning this factor is to suggest that the far larger number of protons per volume present within LENR devices would allow coupling between them that can not readily occur within a plasma. I believe that many of the unusual features of LENR devices would become evident if significant coupling of free protons is proven to occur within the crystal structure. If 100 or more protons work as a team, then I would estimate that as example a gamma ray with an energy of 8 MeV would instead distribute the energy into an average of 80 keV slices. My helpful demon indicates that the energy from a Rossi type proton addition reaction can be slowly absorbed if a force is available that retards the normal proton acceleration due to the strong force interaction. Remember that this is a hypothesis and the coupling between a significant number of protons has not been proven. Also, it needs to be shown that the gamma ray that is typically released at the moment that the proton enters the nucleus originates from the acceleration of that proton and not some other mechanism. It is well established that an accelerated charged particle releases electromagnetic radiation and therefore I would be surprised if none were to be emitted as the strong force grabs hold of the proton that has breached the coulomb barrier. There also should be radiation emission during the initial approach of the proton while it is under the influence of coulomb repulsion by the positively charged nucleus unless this process proceeds at a steady rate. I want to mention that my thoughts are based upon classical physics models and some quantum mechanics behavior might render them inoperable. Dave -Original Message- From: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jun 26, 2012 10:24 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Dave’s Demon and Radiation Free LENR On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:31 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: The density of the plasma is many times lower than in our LENR case so components are further apart by necessity. Could you clarify what you have in mind, here? Pons and Fleischmann initially thought that they were creating a system in which incredible pressure was being exerted upon the deuterium by the palladium lattice. I think the consensus now is that the effective pressure on deuterium and hydrogen loaded in a crystal like that is not actually all that much, and that the mechanism must be due to something other than the interstitial spacing of hydrogen between metal atoms. I actually like the idea of high pressure driving the reaction, but the pressure would not arise from loading. Eric
