Re: [vox-tech] XF86Config Question
On Tue 11 Jan 05, 11:57 PM, Jeff Newmiller [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Robert G. Scofield wrote: This Debian Net Install is requiring a lot of work. That's Debian. :) I'm trying to set up X, and I keep reading warnings that one can burn out a monitor or video card if one screws up. A while ago, Rick Moen posted that any modern monitor has protection circuitry that prevents you from driving the CRT at frequencies that would damage it. Certainly makes sense to me that a monitor would be engineered that way. Of course, you may have that one monitor without the protective circuitry... :) I ran the xf86config program and was asked how much RAM my video card has. I've got onboard video, and I didn't know the answer. I couldn't find it on the web, or in my motherboard manual. So I picked 4096. I notice the following in my XFConfig file: Section Device Identifier My Video Card Driver vga #unsupported card #VideoRAM 4096 # Insert Clocks line here if appropriate So it looks to me like my 4096 selection is commented out, right? That's fine with me because I don't know if it's right. I've got correct settings for the horizontal and vertical sync/refresh rates. And the vga driver looks like I don't have anything to worry about. So it looks to me like I can run X (assuming I can get it up) without blowing anything out. Do you all agree? The vga driver is extremely conservative, and highly unlikely to damage anything. In fact, it is so conservative, you may feel like you are peering through a toilet paper tube at your screen. Why don't you mount the partition the SuSE installation is on and take a look through the XF86Config file on that setup for clues to how to configure it here? Yes, absolutely. This is what I would've suggested had Jeff not read the email first. :) Also, don't forget about XFree86 -configure. This will get you in the right ballpark. After writing a reasonable XF86Config-4 file, you can fine tune your way to the front row seats. Pete -- The mathematics of physics has become ever more abstract, rather than more complicated. The mind of God appears to be abstract but not complicated. He also appears to like group theory. -- Tony Zee's Fearful Symmetry GPG Fingerprint: B9F1 6CF3 47C4 7CD8 D33E 70A9 A3B9 1945 67EA 951D ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] XF86Config Question
On Wednesday 12 January 2005 03:26, Peter Jay Salzman wrote: Also, don't forget about XFree86 -configure. This will get you in the right ballpark. After writing a reasonable XF86Config-4 file, you can fine tune your way to the front row seats. First, thanks to you and Jeff for responding. XFree86 -configure doesn't work for some reason. Here's what I think will be my last question. I am at the stage where I am supposed to set up an X server by making a symbolic link to /usr/X11R6/bin/X In *Linux Unleashed* (Third ed. 1998) an X server is said to be a driver. And one example given of a driver that is a server is this one: XF86_VGA16. Another example is given in the book's illustration of how to set the server up: ln -s /usr/X11R6/bin/XF86_SVA /usr/X11R6/bin/X But I can't find any drivers in /usr/X11R6/bin, and I can't find any drivers anywhere else. So I decided to see how SuSE does it. Here's what SuSE does: /usr/X11R6/bin/X - /var/X11R6/bin/X /var/X11R6/bin/X - /usr/X11R6/bin/Xorg But I can't find Xorg in Debian. And Xorg certainly does not look like the type of driver filed referred to in Linux Unleashed. So I'm thinking of getting some Debian CD's somewhere and giving this net install up, unless someone can tell me where I might find the X server on this system. Thanks. Bob ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] XF86Config Question
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:43:58 -0800 Robert G. Scofield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 12 January 2005 03:26, Peter Jay Salzman wrote: Also, don't forget about XFree86 -configure. This will get you in the right ballpark. After writing a reasonable XF86Config-4 file, you can fine tune your way to the front row seats. First, thanks to you and Jeff for responding. XFree86 -configure doesn't work for some reason. Here's what I think will be my last question. I am at the stage where I am supposed to set up an X server by making a symbolic link to /usr/X11R6/bin/X In *Linux Unleashed* (Third ed. 1998) an X server is said to be a driver. And one example given of a driver that is a server is this one: XF86_VGA16. Another example is given in the book's illustration of how to set the server up: ln -s /usr/X11R6/bin/XF86_SVA /usr/X11R6/bin/X Looks like you got an old book. These are directions for version 3.x of XFree86. You are running XFree86 4.x, which loads its drivers as shared libraries. You select that driver in your XF86Config-4 file. But I can't find any drivers in /usr/X11R6/bin, and I can't find any drivers anywhere else. So I decided to see how SuSE does it. Here's what SuSE does: /usr/X11R6/bin/X - /var/X11R6/bin/X /var/X11R6/bin/X - /usr/X11R6/bin/Xorg But I can't find Xorg in Debian. And Xorg certainly does not look like the type of driver filed referred to in Linux Unleashed. So I'm thinking of getting some Debian CD's somewhere and giving this net install up, unless someone can tell me where I might find the X server on this system. You don't need to do any symlinking. You just need to configure your XF86Config-4 file correctly. --Ken Bloom -- I usually have a GPG digital signature included as an attachment. See http://www.gnupg.org/ for info about these digital signatures. pgpj9yS5LwhSh.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] XF86Config Question
On Wed 12 Jan 05, 9:43 AM, Robert G. Scofield [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wednesday 12 January 2005 03:26, Peter Jay Salzman wrote: Also, don't forget about XFree86 -configure. This will get you in the right ballpark. After writing a reasonable XF86Config-4 file, you can fine tune your way to the front row seats. First, thanks to you and Jeff for responding. XFree86 -configure doesn't work for some reason. Were you root when you did this? I would have hoped you'd know better than to say something doesn't work and leave it at that. Here's what I think will be my last question. I am at the stage where I am supposed to set up an X server by making a symbolic link to /usr/X11R6/bin/X You don't need to (you shouldn't) do that. In *Linux Unleashed* (Third ed. 1998) an X server is said to be a driver. Throw the book away. Programs like ls and cat are eternal. Everything else changes on the order of magnitude of a few years. That book describes X3 from a LONG time ago. It's useless to you. Worse. It's harmful. You're using X4. Much nicer. Convenient. *should* work out of the box. Unless for some reason you really are installing X3? Is it even still available in sarge? one example given of a driver that is a server is this one: XF86_VGA16. Another example is given in the book's illustration of how to set the server up: ln -s /usr/X11R6/bin/XF86_SVA /usr/X11R6/bin/X You used to have to do this painful awful garbage, but thankfully not in a long time. Gee, between XFree86, modems, the cheesey games, and distros actually defaulting to fvwm95, this email has reminded me of how much Linux has truly changed in the past 5 years. It's absolutely unrecognizable from what I had originally installed off a Redhat 5.1 disk. LOL. Pete (who really used to compute his own video modes) ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] XF86Config Question
Quoting Peter Jay Salzman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
A while ago, Rick Moen posted that any modern monitor has protection
circuitry that prevents you from driving the CRT at frequencies that would
damage it. Certainly makes sense to me that a monitor would be engineered
that way.
Near as I can figure it, the lingering warnings about damaging one's monitor
by sending it a video signal it can't handle are a holdover from a
stepwise disaster[1] that occurred in the 1980s.
Early VGA monitors were fixed-frequency -- which was immediately
extended by the Video Electronics Standards Association and others to a
limited, known _set_ of fixed frequencies. It wasn't (at first)
anticipated that people would experiment with input frequencies
(detent settings), so early production units had no protection
circuitry. This was apparently also the case with some of the first
generation of auto-synchronising monitors, pioneered by the NEC
MultiSync.
If you sent such a monitor a signal just barely outside its
ability to synchronise, it would strain to manage the feat, anyway --
and you could hear a high-pitched whine as it made the effort. That
whine was a warning sign: If you dove for the power switch within the
first couple of minutes, the monitor would be OK. Otherwise, boat
anchor.
Immediately following those early production runs, all monitors I'm
aware of simply detect arriving input signals outside the supported
range of frequencies, and blank the monitor harmlessly until the signal
changes to one inside the supported range.
Word has it that LCD (as opposed to tube) monitors were/are for some
reason always immune to the strain-unto-death syndrome.
Boilerplate instructions for video setup (e.g., for X11) still tend to
carry dire warnings about possible monitor damage because nobody wants
to get hatemail from the one-in-a-million owner of an antique monitor
(or some offbrand unit inexplicably lacking protection circuitry) who
watched his pride and joy spew its magic smoke.
Also, don't forget about XFree86 -configure. This will get you in the
right ballpark. After writing a reasonable XF86Config-4 file, you can fine
tune your way to the front row seats.
Running that (as you say, while one is the root user) and then examining
/var/log/XFree86.0.log is usually enlightening.
--
Cheers, $n=99;sub b{$n bottle${[s=]}[$n==1] of beer}
Rick Moen print$b=b, $w=' on the wall',
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ,$b! Take one down, pass it around, ,b($n--),$w! while$n
-- Ben Okopnik
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Re: [vox-tech] XF86Config Question
Quoting Robert G. Scofield ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): This Debian Net Install is requiring a lot of work. I'm trying to set up X, and I keep reading warnings that one can burn out a monitor or video card if one screws up. That's why I'm asking this question. I ran the xf86config program and was asked how much RAM my video card has. I've got onboard video, and I didn't know the answer. I couldn't find it on the web, or in my motherboard manual. So I picked 4096. Suggestion: Before configuring XFree86, install some of the optional hardware-recognition packages, some of which make XFree86 setup smarter. Here's my standard list[1] of such packages: Hardware-recognition (and related) packages: discover Hardware identification system (thank you, Progeny Systems, Inc.), for various PCI, PCMCIA, and USB devices. Will improve XFree86 hardware probing. kudzu, kudzu-vesa Hardware-probing tool (thank you, Red Hat Software, Inc.) intended to be run at boot time. Requires hwdata package. kudzu-vesa is the VBE/DDC stuff for autodetecting monitor characteristics. mdetect Mouse device autodetection tool. If present, it will be used to aid XFree86 configuration tools. read-edid Hardware information-gathering tool for VESA PnP monitors. If present, it will be used to aid XFree86 configuration tools. sndconfig Sound configuration (thank you, Red Hat Software, Inc.), using isapnp detection. Requires kernel with OSS sound modules. Uses kudzu, aumix, and sox. hotplug USB/PCI device hotplugging support, and network autoconfig. nictools-nopci Diagnostic and setup tools for many non-PCI ethernet cards nictools-pci Diagnostic and setup tools for many PCI ethernet cards. mii-diag A little tool to manipulate network cards (examines and sets the MII registers of network cards). printtool Autodetection of printers and PPD support, via an enhanced version of Red Hat Software's Tk-based printtool. Requires the pconf-detect command-line utility for detecting parallel-port, USB, and network-connected printers (which can be installed separately as package pconf-detect). The list is getting a little moldy with age (e.g., odds are long that you won't need nictools-nopci), but at minimum mdetect and read-edid would be helpful.[2] Although XFree86 -configure will do a decent job on any *ix, on Debian specifically you might consider dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86, instead (_after_ installing those hardware-autorecognition packages). #VideoRAM 4096 So it looks to me like my 4096 selection is commented out, right? Don't sweat that. It's there in case XFree86 attempts some stupid guess at your video memory amount that you _know_ to be wrong, in case you therefore wish to un-comment that line, to hit XFree86 with the Cluebat of Enlightenment. [1] Hardware Detection on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian. [2] I'm unsure about why such packages are omitted by default. One speculation is that some hardware may tend to hang if autoprobed. ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] XF86Config Question
Supplying the omitted footnote: Near as I can figure it, the lingering warnings about damaging one's monitor by sending it a video signal it can't handle are a holdover from a stepwise disaster[1] that occurred in the 1980s. Term I coined some years ago. See: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#stepwise-disaster ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] XF86Config Question
On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 11:41:59AM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: The list is getting a little moldy with age (e.g., odds are long that you won't need nictools-nopci), but at minimum mdetect and read-edid would be helpful.[2] [2] I'm unsure about why such packages are omitted by default. One speculation is that some hardware may tend to hang if autoprobed. I think Sarge installs these by default. -- I usually have a GPG digital signature included as an attachment. See http://www.gnupg.org/ for info about these digital signatures. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] XF86Config Question
On Wednesday 12 January 2005 11:41, Rick Moen wrote: Don't sweat that. It's there in case XFree86 attempts some stupid guess at your video memory amount that you _know_ to be wrong, in case you therefore wish to un-comment that line, to hit XFree86 with the Cluebat of Enlightenment. Thanks. And thanks for the other information. And thanks to Ken and Pete. I finally got X working. I could never get XFree86 -configure to work. I played around trying to apt-get servers, and was told I could try 3 or 4 different ones. So I ended up with xserver-xfree86. That prompted me for the writing of a new config file. I put in the wrong mouse info (stupidly copying SuSE entries), but managed to correct it. Then I got an error message about fonts. But Debian told me what font packages to apt-get. And after I got those packages, X started. Now I've got to set up KDE. I downloaded it the other night, but it seems not to be here anymore. Apt and Aptitude, or whatever it is, plays around with packages, removing unused ones, etc. So I'll download KDE again, and read about how to set it up. I think the hardest part is over with. Thanks again. Bob ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] XF86Config Question
On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 03:32:19PM -0800, Robert G. Scofield wrote: On Wednesday 12 January 2005 11:41, Rick Moen wrote: Don't sweat that. It's there in case XFree86 attempts some stupid guess at your video memory amount that you _know_ to be wrong, in case you therefore wish to un-comment that line, to hit XFree86 with the Cluebat of Enlightenment. Thanks. And thanks for the other information. And thanks to Ken and Pete. I finally got X working. I could never get XFree86 -configure to work. I played around trying to apt-get servers, and was told I could try 3 or 4 different ones. So I ended up with xserver-xfree86. That prompted me for the writing of a new config file. I put in the wrong mouse info (stupidly copying SuSE entries), but managed to correct it. Then I got an error message about fonts. But Debian told me what font packages to apt-get. And after I got those packages, X started. Had I known that was your problem, I would have suggested # apt-get install x-window-system or # apt-get install x-window-system-core Now I've got to set up KDE. I downloaded it the other night, but it seems not to be here anymore. Apt and Aptitude, or whatever it is, plays around with packages, removing unused ones, etc. So I'll download KDE again, and read about how to set it up. I think the hardest part is over with. -- I usually have a GPG digital signature included as an attachment. See http://www.gnupg.org/ for info about these digital signatures. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] XF86Config Question
Quoting Robert G. Scofield ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): I finally got X working. I could never get XFree86 -configure to work. See, that's using the rather rudimentary self-configuration abilities provided inside the /usr/bin/X11/XFree86 binary. That's always nice to be able to fall back on, but there is often something better, provided by the distribution itself. I played around trying to apt-get servers, and was told I could try 3 or 4 different ones. So I ended up with xserver-xfree86. Package xserver-xfree86 provides, among other things, the /usr/bin/X11/XFree86 binary (the modular server/graphics-engine binary) for XFree86 _4.x_. In 4.x, that one engine binary is used, regardless of your video chip. Note that I said 4.x. There's a reason I stressed that. Other server packages you refer to were probably legacy XFree86 3.3.x ones for various old chipsets. It's necessary to keep those available because 4.x-type modules have not yet been written for some old video chipsets, and probably never will be. (It's also important to know that 3.x and 4.x use quite different configuration-file formats. You cannot use one version's configuration file with the other's software.) That prompted me for the writing of a new config file. I put in the wrong mouse info (stupidly copying SuSE entries), but managed to correct it. Then I got an error message about fonts. But Debian told me what font packages to apt-get. And after I got those packages, X started. If you ever need to re-do your version 4.x X11 server's configuration for any reason, become the root user (with X _not_ running), and then do: # dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 To review, the term xserver-xfree86 in that command is the name of a file. dpkg-reconfigure means Please once again put me through the final configuration phase for the named package, the one I went through when I initially installed it. Among the reasons that will often work better than XFree86 -configure is that it can leverage the optional hardware-recognition packages I listed in my earlier message. Of course, if you didn't have package xserver-xfree86 installed at the time you tried XFree86 -configure -- well, that's the reason why it didn't work. ;- Now I've got to set up KDE. Intending no criticism, but your original post doesn't seem to have mentioned which Debian branch this is. (It cites just this Debian Net Install.) But there should be a meta-package called kde. On the Debian-sarge box in front of me: Package: kde Priority: optional Section: kde Installed-Size: 40 Maintainer: Debian Qt/KDE Maintainers debian-qt-kde@lists.debian.org Architecture: all Source: meta-kde Version: 5:42 Depends: kde-core, kde-amusements, kdeaddons, kdeadmin, kdeartwork, kdegraphics, kdemultimedia, kdenetwork, kdepim, kdeutils, kdewebdev Suggests: kde-i18n, x-window-system-core Filename: pool/main/m/meta-kde/kde_42_all.deb Size: 7068 MD5sum: 53b4516d7c017ff8cb65ebc38984ed2b Description: The K Desktop Environment A metapackage containing dependencies for the official suite of KDE including arts, kdeaddons, kdeadmin, kdeartwork, kdebase, kdeedu, kdegames, kdegraphics, kdelibs, kdemultimedia, kdenetwork, kdepim, kdetoys, kdeutils, and quanta. . Does not contain depends for Development packages. Task: desktop You should be able to install that meta-package by typing aptitude install kde. I downloaded it the other night, but it seems not to be here anymore. Again, intending no criticism, but I honestly cannot determine, specifically, what the above means. Under ordinary circumstances, you should not need to manually download individual packages (or sets of packages) for a Debian box. Apt and Aptitude, or whatever it is, plays around with packages, removing unused ones, etc. That's not a bug; that's a feature. ;- So I'll download KDE again, and read about how to set it up. I honestly would advise against: I suspect you're solving the wrong problem. If you're getting odd results from trying to use the normal package-management tools, it might be useful to describe those, so people can help determine what if anything is wrong. -- Cheers, Hardware: The part you kick. Rick MoenSoftware: The part you boot. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] XF86Config Question
On Wednesday 12 January 2005 18:45, Rick Moen wrote: First, let me say thanks for the post. There's a lot of good stuff in here for me. So I'm saving it. Under ordinary circumstances, you should not need to manually download individual packages (or sets of packages) for a Debian box. In this Sarge net install you download 110 megs only. After this base you then go online and download what you want. Debian advertises this as a convenient way to download pointing out that it's quicker than downloading iso images for a lot of packages you don't want. Apt and Aptitude, or whatever it is, plays around with packages, removing unused ones, etc. That's not a bug; that's a feature. ;- Yeah, I'm just not used to it. While I haven't yet figured out what Aptitude is doing exactly it does seem to be cleaning things up. So I'll download KDE again, and read about how to set it up. I honestly would advise against: I suspect you're solving the wrong problem. If you're getting odd results from trying to use the normal package-management tools, it might be useful to describe those, so people can help determine what if anything is wrong. The oddest thing I've seen so far is Aptitude in menu mode. I seem to do better with the command line. Every time I want something in menu mode all of the 8,000 to 14,000 Debian packages are set to be downloaded. It's not practical to type the - 13,000 times to get just the KDE packages. Asking for KDE from the command line is more straight forward. The Debian website lists some books on Debian. I was thinking of posting to Vox to see if anyone had a special recommendation for a Debian book. Debian requires more study than the Red Hat, Mandrake, and SuSE that I've used. Bob ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] XF86Config Question
Quoting Robert G. Scofield ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): In this Sarge net install you download 110 megs only. After this base you then go online and download what you want. Er, yes. (I'm very familiar with Debian-compatible netinst installers, and maintain a listing of all such ones known.) Quite possibly, I was misinterpreting what you meant when you said you were downloading a bunch of KDE packages: Your wording made it seem as if you were fetching those manually, rather than using the built-in packag-acquisition and dependency-resolution tools. I was saying that the _former_ would be a bad idea. Yeah, I'm just not used to it. While I haven't yet figured out what Aptitude is doing exactly it does seem to be cleaning things up. Which is what I'd normally expect. Good! The oddest thing I've seen so far is Aptitude in menu mode. I seem to do better with the command line. Yeah, ditto. The Debian website lists some books on Debian. You know, I've not had a very high opinion of the ones I've seen in person: They generally seem like either generic-Linux books, or very outdated, or both. But there may be exceptions. For whatever it's worth, I really do prefer what's findable on the Net. ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
[vox-tech] XF86Config Question
This Debian Net Install is requiring a lot of work. I'm trying to set up X, and I keep reading warnings that one can burn out a monitor or video card if one screws up. That's why I'm asking this question. I ran the xf86config program and was asked how much RAM my video card has. I've got onboard video, and I didn't know the answer. I couldn't find it on the web, or in my motherboard manual. So I picked 4096. I notice the following in my XFConfig file: Section Device Identifier My Video Card Driver vga #unsupported card #VideoRAM 4096 # Insert Clocks line here if appropriate So it looks to me like my 4096 selection is commented out, right? That's fine with me because I don't know if it's right. I've got correct settings for the horizontal and vertical sync/refresh rates. And the vga driver looks like I don't have anything to worry about. So it looks to me like I can run X (assuming I can get it up) without blowing anything out. Do you all agree? Thanks. Bob PS. In the meantime SuSE is working great. So if I don't get Debian up, I'm cool. ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
