Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
On Fri, Mar 18, 2005 at 12:36:22AM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: > For a desktop system, if you're open to evaluation, Ubuntu gets raves > from geeks and newbies alike. So we've finally got a Gentoo presentation scheduled. Who wants to come talk about & demo Ubuntu? :^) -bill! ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
On Fri, Mar 18, 2005 at 07:50:13AM -0600, Jay Strauss wrote: > > > - Kurumin. As Ubuntu, but KDE desktop default. > > Too bad the site is in Spanish (maybe Portugese), I'd like to read > about this distro There's also Kubuntu: http://www.kubuntu.org.uk/ A preview of Hoary Hedgehog was just released yesterday. -David ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
Just to echo everyone else. The new sarge net-install is really easy. From the installer I even created a system where root was on a raid-1 device and the rest of my system is on logical volume groups on top of a raid-1 partition. All from the installer, without any hoops or gymnastics. (I needed to understand the basic concepts of VGs and LVGs to figure out the sequence of stuff to build in the installer, but not too tough even for me) Jay ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
- Kurumin. As Ubuntu, but KDE desktop default. Too bad the site is in Spanish (maybe Portugese), I'd like to read about this distro Jay ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
on Thu, Mar 17, 2005 at 02:03:35PM -0800, Jonathan Stickel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Karsten M. Self wrote: > >Those who fail to understand Debian Policy are forced to reimplement it. > >Poorly. > > > >http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/talks/why_debian/talk.html > >http://twiki.iwethey.org/Main/WhyDebianRocks > > > >Policy - The Special Sauce > > > >This is the crux, the narthex, the throbbing heart of Debian and > >what makes it so utterly superior to all other operating systems. > >Policy is defined. It is clear. It is enforced through the tools you > >use every day. When you issue apt-get install foo, you're not just > >installing software. You're enforcing policy - and that policy's > >objective is to give you the best possible system. > > > > In danger of starting a flame war, I am going to give my view of Debian. This view is based on not having succeeded in actually used or maintained a Debian-based system over any period of time? That's not a slam, it's a question. I'll also preempt a lot of your comments with the following observations: The core Debian distribution is moderately technically oriented. While I probably wouldn't recommend my mother install it, I have few concerns of having her _use_ such a system, once installed and configured. Maintenance of the system, particularly remotely, is a major win. Debian is the basis of a large number of end-user desktop oriented systems. And other systems. You fail to understand Debian policy ;-) Finally: most of your issues appear to concern installation. Try a pre-installed system -- either a vendor-build or through a friend or installfest. > Debian is in fact based on wonderful ideas, but it has horrible > implementation. Um. Well, it's got several implementations. It's best described as a meta-distribution (it's creator, Ian Murdoch, describes it as same). Debian, its policy, and the resulting packages, are the basis from which quite a wide range of systems can be developed. Among the more notable: - Knoppix (and related bootable distros: MEPIS, LNX-BBC, Knoppix-EDU, etc.) - Ubuntu. Desktop / end-user system with special emphasis on an immediately usable GNOME desktop. - Kurumin. As Ubuntu, but KDE desktop default. - Others: Xandros (formerly Corel GNU/Linux), Lycoris, Lindows, the now-defunct Storm. - Embedded systems. HP's iPaq is Debian-based, though using "uDEBs" (micro-debs) rather than the full-sized packages. Many of these are aimed at desktop of novice users. The infrastructure of Policy and packages makes it trivial to customize Debian to specific needs and applications. > Its rigid policy and arrogant developers end up making it difficult to > use for the general user. Um. I'd disagree strongly. Policy means the system behaves in predicable and useful ways. If you want to install your own software, outside the packaging system, you're guaranteed you won't be interefered with by the system. Policy makes possible the creation of systems based on Debian, whether "distros" in their own right (Ubuntu, Lycoris, Xandros, Knoppix, etc.) or tuned Debian installs, which _are_ very user friendly. Most software installs are a matter of starting your package management tool (synaptic (GUI), aptitude (full-screen console), or command-line equivalents), and requesting the software be installed. Any dependencies or conflicts are noted and handled for you. Configuration file changes are tracked and your own settings aren't changed unless requested. Verbosity of such notices can be set (high/medium/low), newbies might want to choose the 'low' setting. The included software selection is larger than any other distro. 17,300+ in testing/unstable. Gentoo's portage lists 9,050, Red Hat and SuSE are in the 3-5k range. Where Debian (and Debian-based systems) wins in particular is in ongoing maintenance. Updates do _not_ require reinstallation. Adding and removing packages is (usually) trivial. The packaging system makes it difficult to shoot yourself in the foot (installing conflicting packages, removing something critical). > It's stable release is nearly 3 years old. It's "its". Um. Yeah, that's why it's "stable" It doesn't change. It is, however, supported. For enterprise / server installs, this is a strong plus: you can install Debian stable and be assured of a 3-5 year horizon without major system upgrades. FYI, "unstable" doesn't refer to software quality, but the fact that your packages _will_ upgrade over time. > Debian's installation process is difficult and requires intimate > knowledge of how linux works. Fair beef: the stock Debian installer has worked at a low level, not performed _any_ hardware autodetection or kernerl module configuration, and assumes you know what software you want to install on your system. As Rick Moen has noted, there are a number of installers. I've worked with
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
Quoting Jonathan Stickel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > See, that's the beginning of the problem. What installer to use? Freedom of choice sucks, doesn't it? ;-> > Why isn't there a standard one that "just works"? Notice the pointer icons for "installation options known to be excellent of their kind"? How many standard ones that just work do you need? ;-> > I've tried the woody net-install, the sarge net-install, and libranet. There is not one single sarge netinst images but numerous ones, created and maintained by various individuals. Most but not all are based on the new, beta-level d-i (debian-installer) code. There are also beta netinst images of the Official Debian sarge d-i installer, automatically built periodically on the build-hosts. There were also numerous unofficial woody netinst images, created and maintained by private parties. The current (non-beta) Official Debian installer _isn't_ available, to my knowledge, as a netinst image. (I just double-checked.) > The libranet install broke after I changed the repositories to sarge > and tried to upgrade. Yes, probably shouldn't have done that, but the > "correct way" was certainly not clear. Changing to use different repositories always creates the risk of some problems, as you're apparently aware. However, in my experience, recent Libranet has always been sarge/sid-compatible. (Prior releases such as 1.7 were pretty much completely compatible with the testing branch of that day, if I recall correctly.) So, I'm left curious about what "broke" means, here. (People really need to be able to deal with minor package-handling faults before doing something like changing repositories. E.g., if you can't figure out how to deal with package foo not installing because it's trying to overwrite file bar owned by package baz, you should stick with more basic setups, until you find your way around.) > I find Fedora 3 to be very stable and usable "out of the box". Good! I like it too. My point is that Debian-testing has proven significantly more stable than each and every one of the Fedora releases over time. In my experience. > Yes, I admit I have "epsilon" experience, where epsilon is some small > but finite number (bad engineering joke). I'm mostly going by all the > "debian is broke" traffic that I see go by on this list. Ah, thank you. ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
Rick Moen wrote: Quoting Jonathan Stickel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Debian's installation process is difficult and requires intimate knowledge of how linux works. Which of the couple of dozen installers for Debian are you referring to? Please see: "Installers" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian See, that's the beginning of the problem. What installer to use? Why isn't there a standard one that "just works"? I've tried the woody net-install, the sarge net-install, and libranet. The libranet install broke after I changed the repositories to sarge and tried to upgrade. Yes, probably shouldn't have done that, but the "correct way" was certainly not clear. In order to have an up-to-date system, you risk instability (with the testing or unstable tree), or must resort to 3rd party "backports". Debian-testing in my experience, has proven much more stable over the years than, say, Mandrakelinux, Fedora, or (in its day) Red Hat 7.x-9. Perhaps you can describe the ways in which your experience has differed. I find Fedora 3 to be very stable and usable "out of the box". Just my view. Maybe I've never given it a fair chance since every install I've tried has failed. Wait, now I'm confused. Was the experience that your claim about "risk[ing] instability" was based on gained using machines that _other_ people installed, then? Or were you speaking from zero experience? Yes, I admit I have "epsilon" experience, where epsilon is some small but finite number (bad engineering joke). I'm mostly going by all the "debian is broke" traffic that I see go by on this list. Jonathan ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
Quoting Jonathan Stickel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > Debian's installation process is difficult and requires intimate > knowledge of how linux works. Which of the couple of dozen installers for Debian are you referring to? Please see: "Installers" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian > In order to have an up-to-date system, you risk instability (with the > testing or unstable tree), or must resort to 3rd party "backports". Debian-testing in my experience, has proven much more stable over the years than, say, Mandrakelinux, Fedora, or (in its day) Red Hat 7.x-9. Perhaps you can describe the ways in which your experience has differed. > Just my view. Maybe I've never given it a fair chance since every > install I've tried has failed. Wait, now I'm confused. Was the experience that your claim about "risk[ing] instability" was based on gained using machines that _other_ people installed, then? Or were you speaking from zero experience? ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
Peter Jay Salzman wrote: Datapoint: I have tried, and failed, to install Gentoo twice. I never failed to install Debian. Yep, I know, everyone is shaped by their experiences. I've tried, and failed, with Debian about 3 times. The last time was about the time I first tried Gentoo... which worked for me! Had Gentoo not worked, for whatever reason, my views may have been polarized to be totally different. Perhaps part of the story is what I expected from Debian vs. Gentoo. I expected Debian to "just work" due to its maturity, user base, and target audience. Gentoo, on the other hand, advertises itself as a guru distribution. Going in with that understanding, and carefully reading the documents, I came out on the other side a happy camper. Nonetheless, it is beyond my comprehension why Debian stable is 3 years old. That is an eternity in the world of open source software. Jonathan ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
On Thu 17 Mar 05, 2:56 PM, Bob Scofield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > On Thursday 17 March 2005 02:03 pm, Jonathan Stickel wrote: > > > Debian's installation process is difficult and requires > > intimate knowledge of how linux works. In order to have an up-to-date > > system, you risk instability (with the testing or unstable tree), or > > must resort to 3rd party "backports". > > *I* think the install is difficult. We have to make a distinction between the installation and the configuration phase that takes place after installation. Installation is easy. Especially with the latest official installers. The configuration phase can be pretty challenging to the uninitiated. But it's a *great* way to learn about your computer and its operating system. Datapoint: I have tried, and failed, to install Gentoo twice. I never failed to install Debian. Pete -- Save Star Trek Enterprise from extinction: http://www.saveenterprise.com GPG Fingerprint: B9F1 6CF3 47C4 7CD8 D33E 70A9 A3B9 1945 67EA 951D ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
On Thursday 17 March 2005 02:03 pm, Jonathan Stickel wrote: > In danger of starting a flame war, I am going to give my view of Debian. > Debian is in fact based on wonderful ideas, but it has horrible > implementation. Seeing as how I both love and hate Debian, a flame war would be difficult for me. I'd be on both sides, and I'd end up attacking myself. > Debian's installation process is difficult and requires > intimate knowledge of how linux works. In order to have an up-to-date > system, you risk instability (with the testing or unstable tree), or > must resort to 3rd party "backports". *I* think the install is difficult. But you don't need an intimate knowledge of how Linux works. I don't know hardly anything about how Linux works, and I got it installed with some help from this list. With the install and some updates I'm being asked configuration questions about things I don't understand at all. But often the configuration programs give hints and advice, and somehow I've ended up with a system that works (except for the disappearing cdrom mount point problem in the 2.6.8-2-386 kernel). I typed up detailed notes on my install, and I'm fighting the sick urge to burn this Debian system over just to install it again to see if I can use my notes for an easier install. This is one reason I hate Debian. It's making me discover these bizarre urges I didn't know I had before. Right now I feel totally committed to SuSE and totally committed to Debian. I want both. With SuSE I'm guaranteed to have an almost flawless system that I can always count on to work and be properly configured. With Debian I can be challenged to learn more, and also be part of the Debian non-commercial ideal. I plan to continue with both distros. > > Just my view. Maybe I've never given it a fair chance since every > install I've tried has failed. You know a lot more than I do, and if I can do a Sarge net install then you can. In fact Janathan it was your post about "localhost:631" that got my printing working. Bob ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
Karsten M. Self wrote: on Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 12:33:06PM -0500, Peter Jay Salzman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon 14 Mar 05, 9:31 AM, Bob Scofield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: Of course I do not expect much sympathy from Debian users for this type of computing. But after Ken's answer to my question about apt upgrading to new versions of open source applications (eventually to Open Office 2.0, for example) I marvel at what Debian is up to. It is clearly economically suicidal for commercial distros to have apt. While Debian is considered geekware, it has tremendous potential to the non-technically inclined. Bob Interesting thought. While my understanding is that apt has been ported to other distros, like Connectiva (which is now owned by someone else) my sense is that it hasn't really caught on. Maybe it doesn't have the blessing of the distros to which it was ported. Those who fail to understand Debian Policy are forced to reimplement it. Poorly. http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/talks/why_debian/talk.html http://twiki.iwethey.org/Main/WhyDebianRocks Policy - The Special Sauce This is the crux, the narthex, the throbbing heart of Debian and what makes it so utterly superior to all other operating systems. Policy is defined. It is clear. It is enforced through the tools you use every day. When you issue apt-get install foo, you're not just installing software. You're enforcing policy - and that policy's objective is to give you the best possible system. In danger of starting a flame war, I am going to give my view of Debian. Debian is in fact based on wonderful ideas, but it has horrible implementation. Its rigid policy and arrogant developers end up making it difficult to use for the general user. It's stable release is nearly 3 years old. Debian's installation process is difficult and requires intimate knowledge of how linux works. In order to have an up-to-date system, you risk instability (with the testing or unstable tree), or must resort to 3rd party "backports". Just my view. Maybe I've never given it a fair chance since every install I've tried has failed. Jonathan ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
on Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 12:33:06PM -0500, Peter Jay Salzman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Mon 14 Mar 05, 9:31 AM, Bob Scofield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > > > Of course I do not expect much sympathy from Debian users for this type of > > computing. But after Ken's answer to my question about apt upgrading to > > new > > versions of open source applications (eventually to Open Office 2.0, for > > example) I marvel at what Debian is up to. It is clearly economically > > suicidal for commercial distros to have apt. While Debian is considered > > geekware, it has tremendous potential to the non-technically inclined. > > > > Bob > > Interesting thought. While my understanding is that apt has been ported to > other distros, like Connectiva (which is now owned by someone else) my sense > is that it hasn't really caught on. Maybe it doesn't have the blessing of > the distros to which it was ported. Those who fail to understand Debian Policy are forced to reimplement it. Poorly. http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/talks/why_debian/talk.html http://twiki.iwethey.org/Main/WhyDebianRocks Policy - The Special Sauce This is the crux, the narthex, the throbbing heart of Debian and what makes it so utterly superior to all other operating systems. Policy is defined. It is clear. It is enforced through the tools you use every day. When you issue apt-get install foo, you're not just installing software. You're enforcing policy - and that policy's objective is to give you the best possible system. What Policy defines are the bounds of Debian, not your own actions on the system. Policy states what parts of the system the package management system can change, and what it can't, how to handle configuration files, etc. By limiting the scope of the distribution in this way, it's possible for the system administrator to make modifications outside the area without fear that Debian packages will affect these changes. In essence, Policy introduces a new class of bugs, policy bugs. Policy bugs are release-critical -- a package which violates policy will not be included in the official stable Debian release. Let me reiterate, because that is the whole secret: A package which violates policy will not be included in the official stable Debian release. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? I found my own migration path from Fedora Core 1. Funny enough, it DOES start with "d" and ends with "ebian," - Seen on Slashdot signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 14:35:14 -0800 "Karsten M. Self" wrote: > The distinction between "desktop" and "server" is about 99.27% > artificial. On my own desktop, I run a mail server, web server, ssh server, a news server (nntpcache), an imap server, and a subversion server. (Half of them sit nicely behind a firewall for local use only). I couldn't get anything done without servers. --Ken Bloom -- I usually have a GPG digital signature included as an attachment. See http://www.gnupg.org/ for info about these digital signatures. pgpP4YfDMyyTK.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
on Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 09:31:35AM -0800, Bob Scofield ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Sunday 13 March 2005 09:34 pm, Karsten M. Self wrote: > > on Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 10:47:06PM -0600, Jay Strauss ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > since wajig was mentioned in the apt-get thread, thought I'd ask. > > > > > > What kind of GUI configuration/administration tools are available for > > > Debian , something like YAST > > > > bash ;-) > > > > > > Seriously: there's a lot of webmin modules available, but strewth, > > Debian emphasizes commandline tools. > > I've just been wondering about Jay's question for the last two days. For the > heck of it, I just typed "aptitude install webmin" to see what would happen. > I was told that apache would be installed. I'm just a desktop user with no > need for apache. Webservers can be useful. Another package you can look into is dwww, which provides web-based access to documentation, including manpages, info, and package-specific docs, in your Debian system. Add swish++ to that and you've got a pretty slick "desktop search" capability. I typically load up a system with GNU/Linux Gazette subscriptions, RFCs, and other docs. Surprisingly useful. The distinction between "desktop" and "server" is about 99.27% artificial. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Bleh! - #debian-bleh signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
on Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 08:25:47AM -0600, Jay Strauss ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > >bash ;-) > > > > > >Seriously: there's a lot of webmin modules available, but strewth, > >Debian emphasizes commandline tools. > > Ok, so I guess I'm using the proper admin too currently. It's also probably worth noting that both GNOME and KDE are increasingly packing system admin tools into their respective GUI "control centers". > What's "strewth"? "It's the truth". "Strewth, blimey bugger cut out in front of me in the car park, 'e did!". Mostly Ozzy. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? I call bullshit on that one, sorry, no man pages no docs. Come on now, what are they supposed do? Call up the Psychic Hotline? - tek, describing GNOME documentation, on linux-elitists signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
Josh Parsons wrote: On Mon, 2005-03-14 at 08:25 -0600, Jay Strauss wrote: What's "strewth"? Short for "God's truth" as in "Strewth, mate, me sheila's nicked off with all me tinnies this arvo!" Oh, Thanks Jay ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
Quoting Bob Scofield ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > I have read that apt can be set up for any rpm-based distro. This is thanks to third-party package repositories, and the porting work done by Conectiva. (Essentially, the back-end code to make the various apt tools able to deal with rpm-format tools is a Conectiva-written fork.) > And my Googling has discovered the fact that there are even SuSE users > using apt. But of course these SuSE users have to somehow set up > their package sources. You download/install a canned sources.list file for that purpose inside the RPM. > My point, which you seem in part to agree with, is this. In > mid-April, a SuSE user can pay $59.99 for an upgrade version of SuSE > 9.3. That will get the user many nice things including an upgrade to > KDE 3.4 and Open Office 2.0. But the Debian users are going to > upgrade to KDE 3.4 and Open Office 2.0 for free. FYI: The SUSE licensing model is often misunderstood, and leads to a lot of confusion and avoidable debate. We tend to discuss that quite a bit on the alt.os.linux.suse newsgroup, and I've FAQed the matter, here: "SUSE Product Stratetgy" on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Licensing_and_Law Your above comparison ignores the differences among SUSE editions, a crucial matter. E.g., SUSE Linux Professional Edition includes a number of packages that are not licensed for redistribution but are included only in retail boxed-sets. In addition, Novell/SUSE does phased rollouts of the various editions, giving earlier access to new software to purchasers of each new release of the boxed-set editions. A few weeks later, it increments Ftp Edition and the others. As of that date, it's my understanding that anyone can download either the (huge) Ftp DVD ISO or the (64MB) mini-installation ISO[1] and run the image's upgrade routine to selectively upgrade whatever packages he wants -- lacking only access to the non-redistributable programs available only in boxed sets. This past Saturday, a fellow was supposed to come by the CABAL meeting at my house in Menlo Park with a copy of SUSE Linux Professional 9.1 to install, and we would have then used the 9.2 mini-installation CD I'd downloaded for him, to grab sundry 9.2 packages. But he didn't drop by. > But I'll bet that Novell will never incorporate apt. If it does, it > will lose it's $59.99 update sales. See, that depends on what Novell/SUSE makes available via apt, and what it doesn't. Which was exactly my point about Xandros. [1] Current releases are at ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/current/iso/ , and mirrors. ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
On Monday 14 March 2005 12:22 pm, Rick Moen wrote: > > Non sequitur. For example, you can point a Debian box at Xandros's > apt-source hosts, but that will not fetch you some key pieces provided > only in the shrink-wrapped boxed sets of Standard Edition and Deluxe > Edition. I have read that apt can be set up for any rpm-based distro. And my Googling has discovered the fact that there are even SuSE users using apt. But of course these SuSE users have to somehow set up their package sources. My point, which you seem in part to agree with, is this. In mid-April, a SuSE user can pay $59.99 for an upgrade version of SuSE 9.3. That will get the user many nice things including an upgrade to KDE 3.4 and Open Office 2.0. But the Debian users are going to upgrade to KDE 3.4 and Open Office 2.0 for free. Now even a SuSE user can upgrade to KDE 3.4 for free. But a lot of SuSE and Mandrake users will not want to, or be able to, download a new KDE version. A Debian user will get there by simply using some form of apt every once and awhile. SuSE has a very nice online update feature; YOU. You get bug fixes and security updates, and you can get things like Microsoft fonts, and NVIDIA drivers. But I'll bet that Novell will never incorporate apt. If it does, it will lose it's $59.99 update sales. Bob ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
Quoting Bob Scofield ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > I've just been wondering about Jay's question for the last two days. For the > heck of it, I just typed "aptitude install webmin" to see what would happen. > I was told that apache would be installed. I'm just a desktop user with no > need for apache. Webmin is a plugin-extensible framework for administering... anything on the system for which someone has written a webmin module. Access is mediated via a Web server. You use it to administer your machine from a Web browser. > Is webmin really very much like YAST? Is it worth getting? YaST, by comparison, is a two-headed piece of software for SUSE boxes: During installation, it _is_ the installer program. After installation, it's a local program for managing services, package insertion/removal, etc. I can't imagine a better way to decide webmin's merits than to use it. > Of course I do not expect much sympathy from Debian users for this type of > computing. I can't imagine why. And the needs of people wanting something like YaST are probably best met by Debian-derived desktop distributions like Libranet and Xandros Desktop OS. > It is clearly economically suicidal for commercial distros to have > apt. Non sequitur. For example, you can point a Debian box at Xandros's apt-source hosts, but that will not fetch you some key pieces provided only in the shrink-wrapped boxed sets of Standard Edition and Deluxe Edition. ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
On Mon, 2005-03-14 at 10:06 -0800, Bill Kendrick wrote: > > Short for "God's truth" as in "Strewth, mate, me sheila's nicked off > > with all me tinnies this arvo!" > > ... a cockney british accent. Obviously my attempt at a comedy *aussie* accent fell flat. I need to figure out how to use accent emoticons. -- Josh Parsons Philosophy Department 1238 Social Sciences and Humanities Bldg. University of California Davis, CA 95616-8673 USA Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
Bob Scofield wrote: I've been doing a lot of thinking about the use of Debian for newbies and bewbies. Bill's directions to Pete on how to set up "My Computer" on KDE takes care of one thing. Something like YAST would take care of another. And something that partitioned as easily as YAST and Mandrake would be still another. I believe synaptic has already been mentioned on this thread. Is it what you want? I use it to manage Fedora installs (via apt-rpm in the background). Of course I do not expect much sympathy from Debian users for this type of computing. But after Ken's answer to my question about apt upgrading to new versions of open source applications (eventually to Open Office 2.0, for example) I marvel at what Debian is up to. It is clearly economically suicidal for commercial distros to have apt. While Debian is considered geekware, it has tremendous potential to the non-technically inclined. Yes, of course, "rolling updates" completely eliminates upgrade purchases. The concept is not totally revolutionary, though. User-based linux distros have been doing it for some time, Debian and Gentoo being the most prominent. I'm able to do rolling updates with Fedora, now too, which is a hybrid user-base, commercially supported distribution. Even commercial companies offer rolling updates under yearly contract licensing rather than single-purchase licensing. Jonathan ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
On Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 09:31:35AM -0800, Bob Scofield wrote: > I've just been wondering about Jay's question for the last two days. For the > heck of it, I just typed "aptitude install webmin" to see what would happen. > I was told that apache would be installed. I'm just a desktop user with no > need for apache. Well, Webmin, as the name implies, is a web-based interface for system administration. I'm currently using it on a machine I'm renting out as a server, and it's actually pretty usable. It provides a web-based GUI interface to control many, many aspects of the system (from log rotation to user accounts). Personally, though, I wouldn't use it on my desktop machine, since I don't do much of those server-y kinds of things at home. > Is webmin really very much like YAST? Is it worth getting? My imperssion was YAST had hardware-detection capabilities, or some-such. So in that sense, no, Webmin is different. (I could be wrong, having never used YAST, and only having used Webmin a little bit, so far!) > Of course I do not expect much sympathy from Debian users for this type of > computing. It depends on which Debian users you're talking to, of course! :^) Personally, I'd love to see Debian become 'the average Joe's' distro, partly because I like what it can do already (the apt-get and other techy stuff), but also because it's "Free." -bill! ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
On Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 08:09:08AM -0800, Josh Parsons wrote: > On Mon, 2005-03-14 at 08:25 -0600, Jay Strauss wrote: > > > What's "strewth"? > > Short for "God's truth" as in "Strewth, mate, me sheila's nicked off > with all me tinnies this arvo!" Two recent 'classic' episodes of Simpsons that aired in syndication recently had Bart suggesting he could be a shoe shine, or some other runt-on-the-street, and doing a cockney british accent. I wonder why they stopped doing that gag... it was funny. :^) -bill! ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
On Mon 14 Mar 05, 9:31 AM, Bob Scofield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > Of course I do not expect much sympathy from Debian users for this type of > computing. But after Ken's answer to my question about apt upgrading to new > versions of open source applications (eventually to Open Office 2.0, for > example) I marvel at what Debian is up to. It is clearly economically > suicidal for commercial distros to have apt. While Debian is considered > geekware, it has tremendous potential to the non-technically inclined. > > Bob Interesting thought. While my understanding is that apt has been ported to other distros, like Connectiva (which is now owned by someone else) my sense is that it hasn't really caught on. Maybe it doesn't have the blessing of the distros to which it was ported. You just might have the answer why. I never really thought of it. I always thought apt was Debian-ware simply because Debian is cool (and I think we have to include Gentoo's system in there too). Perhaps the real reason is more of economics of the commercial distros, not the coolness of the non-commercial distros. Even if it's not true, it's still an interesting take. Pete -- Save Star Trek Enterprise from extinction: http://www.saveenterprise.com GPG Fingerprint: B9F1 6CF3 47C4 7CD8 D33E 70A9 A3B9 1945 67EA 951D ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
On Sunday 13 March 2005 09:34 pm, Karsten M. Self wrote: > on Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 10:47:06PM -0600, Jay Strauss ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > since wajig was mentioned in the apt-get thread, thought I'd ask. > > > > What kind of GUI configuration/administration tools are available for > > Debian , something like YAST > > bash ;-) > > > Seriously: there's a lot of webmin modules available, but strewth, > Debian emphasizes commandline tools. I've just been wondering about Jay's question for the last two days. For the heck of it, I just typed "aptitude install webmin" to see what would happen. I was told that apache would be installed. I'm just a desktop user with no need for apache. Is webmin really very much like YAST? Is it worth getting? I've been doing a lot of thinking about the use of Debian for newbies and bewbies. Bill's directions to Pete on how to set up "My Computer" on KDE takes care of one thing. Something like YAST would take care of another. And something that partitioned as easily as YAST and Mandrake would be still another. Of course I do not expect much sympathy from Debian users for this type of computing. But after Ken's answer to my question about apt upgrading to new versions of open source applications (eventually to Open Office 2.0, for example) I marvel at what Debian is up to. It is clearly economically suicidal for commercial distros to have apt. While Debian is considered geekware, it has tremendous potential to the non-technically inclined. Bob ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
On Mon, 2005-03-14 at 08:25 -0600, Jay Strauss wrote: > What's "strewth"? Short for "God's truth" as in "Strewth, mate, me sheila's nicked off with all me tinnies this arvo!" -- Josh Parsons Philosophy Department 1238 Social Sciences and Humanities Bldg. University of California Davis, CA 95616-8673 USA Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
bash ;-) Seriously: there's a lot of webmin modules available, but strewth, Debian emphasizes commandline tools. Ok, so I guess I'm using the proper admin too currently. What's "strewth"? Jay ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
on Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 10:47:06PM -0600, Jay Strauss ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Hi, > > since wajig was mentioned in the apt-get thread, thought I'd ask. > > What kind of GUI configuration/administration tools are available for > Debian , something like YAST bash ;-) Seriously: there's a lot of webmin modules available, but strewth, Debian emphasizes commandline tools. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? You despise me, don't you? If I gave you any thought, I probably would. - Casablanca signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
[vox-tech] YAST equivalent on Debian?
Hi, since wajig was mentioned in the apt-get thread, thought I'd ask. What kind of GUI configuration/administration tools are available for Debian , something like YAST Thanks Jay ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
