Re: [Vserver] Vserver + OpenMosix...
On Sun, Nov 09, 2003 at 09:48:08AM -, Lu?s Miguel Silva wrote: Hello everybody, I just thought of something! How about the vserver project united with the openmosix project? It would be great to be able to have multiple vservers enjoying the cheerfull'blesses of multi'processing. yes it would. I have already thought of the same, but so far, just thinking. One of my servers is a X86 2.6ghz with 512Mb ram running about 6 vservers and it is *totally* lagged. It would be great if we could balance the load thru other machines (like we do with openmosix). yes it would, but i would prefer to move a whole vserver userland context, and not just a single process. JonB ___ Vserver mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
RE: [Vserver] Vserver + OpenMosix...
I thought about it half a year ago. Well, i tried it out and openmosix and veserver-patch compiled. The Problem is, that the knowledge of the context needs to be migrated, too. in a first attempt it would be sufficient to implement this, but one has to thin about same context-IDs on different servers in the openmosix-cluster. The whole Idea fits close to the Ideas of grid technologies. Zitat von Luís Miguel Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Yes, my server is heavily loaded. I have 2 IDE disks at 7200rpm, doing raid1. The big load comes (mainly) from the mail server (when users use imapd thru the webmail). I use kernel 2.4.21 + ctx17. I really dont believe in SMP solutions. It is far more expensive then setting up a cluster. In the past we (at my university) invested in dual processor boards but now we are convinced that it is not a $good$ $solution$ (heheh). According to the funcionality of how the openmosix kernel works (imho) it would be the best solution to load balance vservers. The vserver project is great for low'cost production servers and...*SECURITY*! I think that if you would be able to get us vserver'users a cluster'like solution...it would be the BEST system administration project *ever*! Best, +- | Luís Miguel Silva | Network Administrator@ ISPGaya.pt | Rua António Rodrigues da Rocha, 291/341 | Sto. Ovídio 4400-025 V. N. de Gaia | Portugal | T: +351 22 3745730/3/5 F: +351 22 3745738 | G: +351 93 6371253 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | H: http://lms.ispgaya.pt/ +- -Mensagem original- De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nome de Herbert Poetzl Enviada: domingo, 9 de Novembro de 2003 16:38 Para: Luís Miguel Silva Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Assunto: Re: [Vserver] Vserver + OpenMosix... On Sun, Nov 09, 2003 at 09:48:08AM -, Luís Miguel Silva wrote: Hello everybody, I just thought of something! How about the vserver project united with the openmosix project? It would be great to be able to have multiple vservers enjoying the cheerfull'blesses of multi'processing. let me address this separated ... One of my servers is a X86 2.6ghz with 512Mb ram running about 6 vservers and it is *totally* lagged. either your 6 servers do really hard work, which will bring down every system sooner or later, or your kernel and/or configuration is not optimal. Another reason could be a slow I/O (disk) and/or memory interface, which usual is the bottleneck nowadays ... what you could do/try: - get a recent kernel and patch rmap and maybe O(1) - use faster memory/disks (maybe striping, raid5) - add a second processor, SMP systems are much more resposive (smooth) with vservers It would be great if we could balance the load thru other machines (like we do with openmosix). I agree that this sounds interesting and it might be a viable solution to scale the vserver project beyond the physical limits of one MP machine ... I do not have any deeper knowledge of OpenMosix and no Farm where such a project could be tested/developed so if there is interest in doing this, we'll need both. best, Herbert Best, +- | Luís Miguel Silva | Network Administrator@ ISPGaya.pt | Rua António Rodrigues da Rocha, 291/341 | Sto. Ovídio 4400-025 V. N. de Gaia | Portugal | T: +351 22 3745730/3/5 F: +351 22 3745738 | G: +351 93 6371253 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | H: http://lms.ispgaya.pt/ +- ___ Vserver mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserverVÇ«½êæj)b b²Õlz»Þ®X¬¶X§»ìz»Þ®àÛiÿùb²Ùbìo±êïzº+ùYùb²Ø§~ï±êïz Mit freundlichen Gruessen Jan Pilawa. -- + Kontakt + + Systembetreuung Rechenzentrum TU Braunschweig + + Hans-Sommer-Str. 65, D-38092 Braunschweig + + Tel: +49 531 391-5548 Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __+ ___ Vserver mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
Re: [Vserver] Vserver + OpenMosix...
Zitat von Herbert Poetzl [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
The vserver project is great for low'cost production
servers and...*SECURITY*!
I think that if you would be able to get us vserver'users
a cluster'like solution...it would be the BEST system
administration project *ever*!
well, so I assume you want to help to make this possible,
by, for example providing mosix specifix information and
setting up a mosix cluster, right?
I, for my part, am willing to port the vserver stuff on
a mosix kernel, if somebody does the testing ...
I think, you have at least two testers. Since all recent projects are
nearly done for this year, I am looking forward for some interesting
projects for future developements.
best,
Herbert
Best,
+-
| Luís Miguel Silva
| Network Administrator@ ISPGaya.pt
| Rua António Rodrigues da Rocha, 291/341
| Sto. Ovídio 4400-025 V. N. de Gaia
| Portugal
| T: +351 22 3745730/3/5 F: +351 22 3745738
| G: +351 93 6371253 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| H: http://lms.ispgaya.pt/
+-
-Mensagem original-
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nome de Herbert
Poetzl
Enviada: domingo, 9 de Novembro de 2003 16:38
Para: Luís Miguel Silva
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Assunto: Re: [Vserver] Vserver + OpenMosix...
On Sun, Nov 09, 2003 at 09:48:08AM -, Luís Miguel Silva wrote:
Hello everybody,
I just thought of something!
How about the vserver project united with the openmosix
project?
It would be great to be able to have multiple vservers enjoying
the cheerfull'blesses of multi'processing.
let me address this separated ...
One of my servers is a X86 2.6ghz with 512Mb ram running about 6
vservers and it is *totally* lagged.
either your 6 servers do really hard work, which will
bring down every system sooner or later, or your kernel
and/or configuration is not optimal. Another reason
could be a slow I/O (disk) and/or memory interface,
which usual is the bottleneck nowadays ...
what you could do/try:
- get a recent kernel and patch rmap and maybe O(1)
- use faster memory/disks (maybe striping, raid5)
- add a second processor, SMP systems are much more
resposive (smooth) with vservers
It would be great if we could balance the load thru other machines
(like we do with openmosix).
I agree that this sounds interesting and it might be
a viable solution to scale the vserver project beyond
the physical limits of one MP machine ...
I do not have any deeper knowledge of OpenMosix and
no Farm where such a project could be tested/developed
so if there is interest in doing this, we'll need both.
best,
Herbert
Best,
+-
| Luís Miguel Silva
| Network Administrator@ ISPGaya.pt
| Rua António Rodrigues da Rocha, 291/341
| Sto. Ovídio 4400-025 V. N. de Gaia
| Portugal
| T: +351 22 3745730/3/5 F: +351 22 3745738
| G: +351 93 6371253 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| H: http://lms.ispgaya.pt/
+-
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Mit freundlichen Gruessen
Jan Pilawa.
--
+ Kontakt +
+ Systembetreuung Rechenzentrum TU Braunschweig +
+ Hans-Sommer-Str. 65, D-38092 Braunschweig +
+ Tel: +49 531 391-5548 Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __+
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RE: [Vserver] Vserver + OpenMosix...
Be careful. You're only comparing the upfront sticker price. If you can double or triple the capacity of your mailserver (I'll bet you can) and minimize the complexity of the solution (openmosix + vserver integration + multiple boxes (multiple points of failure) sounds very complex to me), I'll bet you find the TCO of the solution flip flop with SCSI being much lower than IDE. A parallel example: I recently consulted with a fellow who was trying to run a 25,000 box mailserver on a series of aggregated DSL lines. It was easy work to show him that the TCO for a burstable T3 line was much lower than that of multiple DSL lines, even though the sticker price indicated the opposite. Matthew Nuzum | Makers of Elite Content Management System www.followers.net | View samples of Elite CMS in action [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.followers.net/portfolio/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:vserver- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lus Miguel Silva Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 3:26 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Vserver] Vserver + OpenMosix... Hello Mat, I know that SCSI has better performance then IDE...but...analizing the price it just doenst compensate! I can only get about 60gb SCSI disk for the price i can get a 200gb IDE disk (more or less). We used to use SCSI disks but with the hdd inovations on the last years we realised that its a waste of money (in our case) to buy scsi! Thanks, Lus -Mensagem original- De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nome de Matthew Nuzum Enviada: domingo, 9 de Novembro de 2003 20:12 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Assunto: RE: [Vserver] Vserver + OpenMosix... We have been working on an OpenMosix cluster in the computer club at the school where I'm taking classes now. I've found that the server applications that I typically use do not benefit from openmosix. The applications commonly fall into either of two categories: a) I/O bound applications that only slow down when migrated to a different node on the cluster, or b) Applications that are incompatible with Mosix for various reasons (threaded, shmem, device dependent etc.) such as Database software, Apache and other server processes. I think the audience of people who can legitimately benefit from a combined vserver/mosix installation is rather small. For those that have heavily loaded servers, why not just put fewer vservers on a server? If 6 is too many, just do 4 or 5. If you have extra boxes with spare cpu cycles, put the vserver there. Honestly, if your mailserver setup is too slow, I'm certain you can get better performance by switching from IDE disks to SCSI. In my recent tests, I/O tasks on IDE drives kept the CPU at about 53% utilization. Same tests on SCSI disks used only 14% utilization with the I/O processes taking significantly less time to complete on the SCSI. That was a system with a single IDE drive compared to the same system with a single SCSI drive. This is common knowledge among hardware people as the IDE subsystem uses system resources for the bulk of I/O where SCSI cards were designed to handle the I/O work much the same way a video card handles graphics work. Matthew Nuzum | ISPs: Make $200 - $5,000 per referral by www.followers.net | recommending Elite CMS to your customers! [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.followers.net/isp -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:vserver- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lus Miguel Silva Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 12:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Vserver] Vserver + OpenMosix... Yes, my server is heavily loaded. I have 2 IDE disks at 7200rpm, doing raid1. The big load comes (mainly) from the mail server (when users use imapd thru the webmail). I use kernel 2.4.21 + ctx17. I really dont believe in SMP solutions. It is far more expensive then setting up a cluster. In the past we (at my university) invested in dual processor boards but now we are convinced that it is not a $good$ $solution$ (heheh). According to the funcionality of how the openmosix kernel works (imho) it would be the best solution to load balance vservers. The vserver project is great for low'cost production servers and...*SECURITY*! I think that if you would be able to get us vserver'users a cluster'like solution...it would be the BEST system administration project *ever*! Best, +- | Lus Miguel Silva | Network Administrator@ ISPGaya.pt | Rua Antnio Rodrigues da Rocha, 291/341 | Sto. Ovdio 4400-025 V. N. de Gaia | Portugal | T: +351 22 3745730/3/5 F: +351 22 3745738 | G: +351 93 6371253 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | H: http://lms.ispgaya.pt/ +- -Mensagem original- De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Vserver] Vserver + OpenMosix...
On Sun, Nov 09, 2003 at 05:46:29PM +0100, Herbert Poetzl wrote: On Sun, Nov 09, 2003 at 12:55:51PM +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [cut] yes it would, but i would prefer to move a whole vserver userland context, and not just a single process. you can already move the vserver in a very fast way, which will you give about 10-20 sec downtime, but this requires a restart of the vserver, which might not be what someone wants ... yes, i am aware of this. context coherence on OpenMosix farms for sure is a good concept, but what is the actual advantage over two loosely connected machines? what do you expect which could not be gained by several separated machines? loadbalancing, electricity saving/heat saving. And that i dont want any downtime. JonB ___ Vserver mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
Re: [Vserver] Vserver + OpenMosix...
On Sun, Nov 09, 2003 at 03:12:13PM -0500, Matthew Nuzum wrote: it is annoying that your mail program does not wrap long lines. We have been working on an OpenMosix cluster in the computer club at the school where I'm taking classes now. I've found that the server applications that I typically use do not benefit from openmosix. The applications commonly fall into either of two categories: a) I/O bound applications that only slow down when migrated to a different node on the cluster, or b) Applications that are incompatible with Mosix for various reasons (threaded, shmem, device dependent etc.) such as Database software, Apache and other server processes. a) true, I/O bound processes are not good for migrating, but not all has that kind of processes. And even if they do... Gbit networking is cheap, and is certainly faster than most harddrives. So, fill a server with several harddrives, run raid, and export it through the network, and you will get a better throughput than you would on a single drive, and probably even a 2 disk mirror/stripe. b) one day those processes might be migrateable. I think the audience of people who can legitimately benefit from a combined vserver/mosix installation is rather small. I'm not so sure, i think that once the technology is there, alot of people would want it. They just dont know it yet. Besides even if it is a small ammount of people, why not allow them to have this functionality? For those that have heavily loaded servers, why not just put fewer vservers on a server? If 6 is too many, just do 4 or 5. If you have extra boxes with spare cpu cycles, put the vserver there. if you can NOT tolerate downtime, then it is currently card to migrate the vservers. I imagien a cluster of machines, which only power on when needed. This saves electricity and heat. The actual data is located on a server, because disks are slower than network. Thus, the machines boot fast, and then you can more the vservers to that new physical machine. I can imagien this is usefull for hosting providers, because they can automaticaly power up that extra 8-way opteron with 16G ram the hosting provider has for backup purposes. They have 2. One runs the vservers for customers, and the other is a spare, used if the other fails, or is too small. The spare is normaly shut down to save electricity and heat. (it's located in california ;-P One of their customers is thinkgeek. Then suddently thinkgeek is slashdottet, and normaly their vserver would crawl to a halt, because they ordered a vserver with these limits 10%cpu, 1G memory. However, the hosting provider has a special option for their customers they can choose a disaster package, that allows the customers vservers to suddently use ALOT MORE COMPUTER-RESOURCES. So, the hosting provider power on the extra spare 8-way opteron, and migrate the thinkgeek-vserver to that machine, running ONLY that vserver, and gives it all the cpu and memory it want. The result is that thinkgeek captures all those extra 324723489273434 orders, rather than dropping them because the vserver is not powerfull enough. All this happens without anyone noticing anything, and while the machine is running. No downtime. Honestly, if your mailserver setup is too slow, I'm certain you can get better performance by switching from IDE disks to SCSI. In my recent tests, I/O tasks on IDE drives kept the CPU at about 53% utilization. Same tests on SCSI disks used only 14% utilization with the I/O processes taking significantly less time to complete on the SCSI. That was a system with a single IDE drive compared to the same system with a single SCSI drive. Just because this situation might not use vserver/openmosix, does not mean other situations can not use it. JonB ___ Vserver mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list.linux-vserver.org/mailman/listinfo/vserver
