RE: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
-Original Message- From: rudy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:07 PM To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com Subject: Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry Nothing wrong with the markup unless the poem were written like this sorry, drew, maybe i'm not getting it, but the markup for that would be p unless br /the poem br /were br /written br /like this oh, did you perhaps have some white space formatting there? ironic, isn't it? ;o) === Yes it was white spaced -- in staggered steps to form a right angle bracket. And now since I'm over 16 hours behind on the discussion, I'll blithely, but without piffle, dump some other replies into this one. Stephen, we can of course reduce all written words to lists using your argument about lines being implicitly linked. But the main point is really that semantics shouldn't be the argument about what the meaning of is is. The idea, again, is to make it possible for machines to catch some of the extra meaning humans attach to things. For a machine to do that, the meaning has to be specific. It doesn't have to be grandiose, it just has to be specific. Like headers: intended to define order of importance grouped around a main topic thus forming a possible table of contents. We are adding perhaps unnecessary complications when arguing that this list is for links and that list form for poems. That isn't built into the structure of the language (xhtml or html) and the machine has no way of recognizing that. And if you create an xml agent which can extract ol, ul and dl you will get an enormous range of results. That is, the extractions will not resemble each other except superficially. What I'm trying to say is, heretically, that too much is being made over semantics which are ephemeral. Best practices is a changing thing. Structural specificity, which machines thrive on, is ongoing. So style the list as makes sense, pre the poem but get the structure right. drew The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
Stephen,
Thanks for the demo (and the approval). I was trying to use lists for
links in my new site but have abandoned it; the reason is shown by looking
at the demo in IE and FF (also because IE won't do sub-lists. I know
there are answers but my learning time is now very curtailed.
The difference in the two browsers fro such a straightforward piece of
coding has excercised this list many times, so it is no surprise (well FF is
new as a major contender, but the browser differences aren't).
I'll test out the variations discussed yesterday - my time's a bit broken
today and it will have to be when I can grab a couple of hours to
concentrate. The mail list gets first try!
And I'm a fortnight behind with the eZine...
Joseph
Good call on changing the subject line... def got derailed from it's
initial post subject. I'll jump on in here.
I don't know if you followed through the other thread much, but the
markup you provide below was discussed as well. Personally, the br/'s
just gimme the willies. I haven't intentionally coded one for anything
other than a kludge for years now. Bad br/. bad.
So... to quote myself:
I would think that since the order of the lines is implicit to the
text's meaning, that an ordered list would be most appropriate...
I should probably have expanded that by saying ... since the order of
the lines is implicit to the text meaning, *and in the given example,
each line is a block level element*, an ordered list would seem most
appropriate.
Style out the numbers (for visual and aural UA's) with:
li{
list-style: none;
speak: none;
}
and then you've got a semantically rich container for the textual
content that also happens to display (and / or sound) like you expect it
to.
Again, not knowing if you missed it, here's my demo:
http://mechavox.com/sandbox/poem_markup.html
Which I've just updated so that it should behave properly in conforming
Aural Browsers as well.
- Stephen
rudy wrote:
Nothing wrong with the markup
unless
the poem
were
written
like this
sorry, drew, maybe i'm not getting it, but the markup for that would be
p unless
br /the poem
br /were
br /written
br /like this
oh, did you perhaps have some white space formatting there?
ironic, isn't it?
;o)
this subject interests me greatly, and i would really like to explore
the best
way to do this, so i invite comments on this --
in my mind, best way equates to semantic markup, least non-semantic
markup,
least css, and in particular no css browser hacks...
by semantic markup, i mean if it can be done without ids or classes
by least non-semantic markup, i mean without divs or spans
etc.
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Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
[ out of context ] because IE won't do sub-lists. sure it will rudy The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
RE: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
What do you mean by IE won't do sub lists? I use multilevel lists all the time. Cheryl D. Wise Certified Professional Web Developer Microsoft FrontPage MVP http://wiserways.com -Original Message- From: Joseph Harris Thanks for the demo (and the approval). I was trying to use lists for links in my new site but have abandoned it; the reason is shown by looking at the demo in IE and FF (also because IE won't do sub-lists. I know there are answers but my learning time is now very curtailed. The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
I meant 'drop-down' sub lists of course; for me at least, the cures seemed worse than the problem!! Joseph (Oh, I haven't started another one?) [ out of context ] because IE won't do sub-lists. sure it will rudy The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with. The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: unknown lmsubst tag argument: '' To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
I meant 'drop-down' sub lists of course; okay, again i apologize for missing the start of this lovely thread what is a 'drop-down' sub list? if you have a url where one exists in the wild, please share otherwise a description of this rare beast will have to do rudy htmlin' since '96 and ne'er seen no drop-down sub list yet, dag nabbit The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
RE: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
Me neither Cheryl D. Wise Certified Professional Web Developer Microsoft FrontPage MVP http://wiserways.com -Original Message- From: rudy rudy htmlin' since '96 and ne'er seen no drop-down sub list yet, dag nabbit The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
rudy et al, Answering why poems are 'broken' into short lines. To be very general the poem developed to bring meaning - often emotional - verbally (just means with words - 'orally' means spoken) in both an economical and effective way. It has developed into forms and methods quite distinct from prose as well as bridging the gaps (eg. blank verse). Though free verse forms are now used a lot poetry remains rhythmic and often rhyming. Because of this the layout is an important aid to meaning. Take: Lars Porsena of Clusium, by the nine gods he swore -and - The serried ranks of Tuscany could scarce forbear to cheer -and then see them as verses- 'Lars Porsena of Clusium By the nine gods he swore' (opening lines of How Horatio Held the Bridge) and (further on) 'The seried ranks of Tuscany Could scarce forbear to cheer'. Though there are better examples, the latter couplet in particular shows that - rather than being prose broken into short lines - the verse form has meaning in its own right. Though hopefully still grammatical the poem is not prose, nor should it be. The limerick, for example, gives a way of bringing surprise and relationship in a very economical form combined with expectation. To try to write a limerick in prose and still get the effects is probably impossible. So with much other poetry. I write up a lot of factual stories as humourous poems. You can cut to the chase so much more easily. Freedom Tunnel, which Stephen demonstrates on, is based on a true story from a small zoo. The pigs really did dig the tunnel to let the wallaby escape; the wallaby was in an enclosure with three females. And the pigs did stay put. Each poem can demand its own form; because that form helps the poem to work. And while mostly it is a matter of two, three, four, up to eight verses (lines) to a stanza I do often find the need to put parts of lines near the end of previous lines, or central horizontally and so on. In free verse you can get the strangest of mixes; remember 'I'll be judge, I'll be jury, said cunning old fury... which was laid out like a rat's tail over a century ago? (Lewis Carroll) Can I say more? (Well, yes, but I'd better stop) Joseph forwarding this from last night, which somehow did not get posted to the list My objections are actually along the lines of the fact that br/ tags are usually a byproduct of sloppy coding practices. counterexample: pthere was an old man from nantucket br /who kept his teeth in a bucket br /... /p where, please, is the sloppiness? They are purely presentational and there is, I contest (as does my glass of Pinot Grigio) utterly no use for them other than as a kludge... see above counterexample kludge? i don't think so Further to that, I put forth the challenge (and would be happy to be proved wrong) to find a use for br/ where semantic markup and CSS wouldn't do the job just as well or better. i want to get to the heart of this is breaking a poem into lines purely visual? or is there some semblance of semantic separation from one line to the next? let's ask the poet if breaking his poem into lines is a kludge, whether the poem still has the same semantics when the lines are all run into each other i think poetry is one of the best examples of the proper use of the BR while i sort of like the nested ordered lists, it is nowhere near as semantically elegant as Ps with BRs for each line nowhere near but that's just me what do i know, eh rudy . The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM . To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with. The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at:
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
Cheryl, I kept hitting snags trying to get drop down lists to work in IE and have abandonned the attempt for the moment. this was despite your help and the help of others on the list. I am sure I will pick it up again but not just now. For me the statement has truth :-o Joseph What do you mean by IE won't do sub lists? I use multilevel lists all the time. Cheryl D. Wise Certified Professional Web Developer Microsoft FrontPage MVP http://wiserways.com -Original Message- From: Joseph Harris Thanks for the demo (and the approval). I was trying to use lists for links in my new site but have abandoned it; the reason is shown by looking at the demo in IE and FF (also because IE won't do sub-lists. I know there are answers but my learning time is now very curtailed. . The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM . To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with. The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
What would suckerfish and son of suckerfish be then? Or Cheng's version? Or here http://www.moronicbajebus.com/ perhaps. As Dorothy Parker might have put it ' A drop down menu based on lists is a drop down menu based on lists is a drop down menu based on lists' Or am I wrong? Me neither Cheryl D. Wise Certified Professional Web Developer Microsoft FrontPage MVP http://wiserways.com -Original Message- From: rudy rudy htmlin' since '96 and ne'er seen no drop-down sub list yet, dag nabbit The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
RE: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
Are you talking about something like the suckerfish menu (http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/archives/50.php) or a dropdown form field? For the suckerfish type menu you use an htc file and IE works fine. I use it on my site at http://wiserways.com/web Cheryl D. Wise Certified Professional Web Developer Microsoft FrontPage MVP http://wiserways.com -Original Message- From: Joseph Harris Cheryl, I kept hitting snags trying to get drop down lists to work in IE and have abandonned the attempt for the moment. this was despite your help and the help of others on the list. I am sure I will pick it up again but not just now. For me the statement has truth :-o The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
Oh dear, both ignorance and memory (though I don't know and I don't remember) seem a problem - htc file? And I also wanted to sidestep Javascript issues as I recall. Joseph Are you talking about something like the suckerfish menu (http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/archives/50.php) or a dropdown form field? For the suckerfish type menu you use an htc file and IE works fine. I use it on my site at http://wiserways.com/web Cheryl D. Wise Certified Professional Web Developer Microsoft FrontPage MVP http://wiserways.com -Original Message- From: Joseph Harris Cheryl, I kept hitting snags trying to get drop down lists to work in IE and have abandonned the attempt for the moment. this was despite your help and the help of others on the list. I am sure I will pick it up again but not just now. For me the statement has truth :-o The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
T.S. Eliot. Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock I believe the original poster, having gone to a lot of effort to get the poem looking 'just right' in a word processing program, did not want to have to basically start over by using br tags when pre/pre allowed simple 'cut and paste'. Malcolm Turner Web Site Coordinator American Printing House for the Blind [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (502) 899-2398 Visit our web site: www.aph.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/26/05 02:45PM i haven't been really paying attention to the font size in firefox thread, but there was some discussion of tags for poetry? what's wrong with this markup -- pI have seen them riding seaward on the waves br /Combing the white hair of the waves blown back br /When the wind blows the water white and black. /p pWe have lingered in the chambers of the sea br /By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown br /Till human voices wake us, and we drown. /p (guess the poem -- no fair googling it) rudy http://r937.com/ * The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM * To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with. The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: unknown lmsubst tag argument: '' To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
RE: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
-Original Message- i haven't been really paying attention to the font size in firefox thread, but there was some discussion of tags for poetry? what's wrong with this markup -- pI have seen them riding seaward on the waves br /Combing the white hair of the waves blown back br /When the wind blows the water white and black. /p pWe have lingered in the chambers of the sea br /By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown br /Till human voices wake us, and we drown. /p (guess the poem -- no fair googling it) rudy = Nothing wrong with the markup unless the poem were written like this drew The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
Nothing wrong with the markup unless the poem were written like this sorry, drew, maybe i'm not getting it, but the markup for that would be p unless br /the poem br /were br /written br /like this oh, did you perhaps have some white space formatting there? ironic, isn't it? ;o) this subject interests me greatly, and i would really like to explore the best way to do this, so i invite comments on this -- in my mind, best way equates to semantic markup, least non-semantic markup, least css, and in particular no css browser hacks... by semantic markup, i mean if it can be done without ids or classes by least non-semantic markup, i mean without divs or spans etc. The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
Good call on changing the subject line... def got derailed from it's
initial post subject. I'll jump on in here.
I don't know if you followed through the other thread much, but the
markup you provide below was discussed as well. Personally, the br/'s
just gimme the willies. I haven't intentionally coded one for anything
other than a kludge for years now. Bad br/. bad.
So... to quote myself:
I would think that since the order of the lines is implicit to the
text's meaning, that an ordered list would be most appropriate...
I should probably have expanded that by saying ... since the order of
the lines is implicit to the text meaning, *and in the given example,
each line is a block level element*, an ordered list would seem most
appropriate.
Style out the numbers (for visual and aural UA's) with:
li{
list-style: none;
speak: none;
}
and then you've got a semantically rich container for the textual
content that also happens to display (and / or sound) like you expect it
to.
Again, not knowing if you missed it, here's my demo:
http://mechavox.com/sandbox/poem_markup.html
Which I've just updated so that it should behave properly in conforming
Aural Browsers as well.
- Stephen
rudy wrote:
Nothing wrong with the markup
unless
the poem
were
written
like this
sorry, drew, maybe i'm not getting it, but the markup for that would be
p unless
br /the poem
br /were
br /written
br /like this
oh, did you perhaps have some white space formatting there?
ironic, isn't it?
;o)
this subject interests me greatly, and i would really like to explore the best
way to do this, so i invite comments on this --
in my mind, best way equates to semantic markup, least non-semantic markup,
least css, and in particular no css browser hacks...
by semantic markup, i mean if it can be done without ids or classes
by least non-semantic markup, i mean without divs or spans
etc.
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Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
So... to quote myself: I would think that since the order of the lines is implicit to the text's meaning, that an ordered list would be most appropriate... yeah, but you could say the same for anything, for example the sentences in a typical paragraph -- mix their order around and the paragraph loses meaning just as easily as a poem loses its meaning when its lines are resequenced (although a mish-mashed poem might still actually have some beauty) so i don't buy that rationalization ;o) however, i quite like the solution (nested lists) anyway and then you've got a semantically rich container for the textual content that ... i disagree with this an ordered list for a series of lines (or series of stanzas) is semantically no more rich than an ordered list for a series of paragraphs how many html authors have page content which consists of a series of Ps? -- are these typically nested inside an ordered list? didn't think so ;o) http://mechavox.com/sandbox/poem_markup.html as i said, i quite like that if i weren't so busy i'd build one with Ps and BRs what exactly is your dislike of BR based on? rudy The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
Coming to the more general discussion of mark-up for poetry, songs, blank
verse, sonnets and, most particularly, free verse, I think Malcolm has
understood the matter most perfectly. Having word-processed to the perfect
layout there is no better method than cut and paste into a pre.
Cheryl has now (and thank you for that Cheryl) come up with
.poem {
white-space: pre;
}, which I know she had given me some while back but I could neither find it
nor remember. It will be in the next generation of my eZine - which
template I am just completing - and site - which is still a little
distant --alas!
Theoretically, I agree, the ordered list is a perfect method for normal
verse but, because it is a clumsy and laborious way to render verse, it
cannot find favour among poets (though some may use it, grumbling all the
while).
In that vein rudy's solution is an elegant version of that. But I started
with font and br in 2001 and would not want to go back to any variant of
it.
A secondary hesitation about both methods is the possible difficulty in
cutting and pasting from the html code - needing work to remove tags - or
web page (though I have not tried and am not certain of that).
As Reductio the poem may be an ordered list but, like cutting up the frog to
see what makes it live, the act is one of separation and assumes that each
line exists alone. The very nature of poetry makes that assumption unsafe.
Some lines do work alone, or carry a single concept; it is far more likely
that two lines work together, sometimes three, maybe a line and a half,
maybe a half a line.the limerick is a special case where in fact lines
1, 2 and 5 are related and lines 3 and 4 are related, yet the two groups are
also totally interdependent.
Where rhyme is important the pattern can be any one of about a half-dozen
generally used ones which can mingle the relationships in unexpected ways.
Though unusual Shakespeare's blank verse is particularly awkward over
spilling connections between lines.
And what of songs? When I parody songs I am often faced by (poetically)
very strange layouts and versings. Without pre it might be very
difficult to show them on the web. And don't talk to me about the
difference between equal and proportional spacing...
Joseph
Nothing wrong with the markup
unless
the poem
were
written
like this
sorry, drew, maybe i'm not getting it, but the markup for that would be
p unless
br /the poem
br /were
br /written
br /like this
oh, did you perhaps have some white space formatting there?
ironic, isn't it?
;o)
this subject interests me greatly, and i would really like to explore the
best
way to do this, so i invite comments on this --
in my mind, best way equates to semantic markup, least non-semantic
markup,
least css, and in particular no css browser hacks...
by semantic markup, i mean if it can be done without ids or classes
by least non-semantic markup, i mean without divs or spans
etc.
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Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
Hmm, How are the poems being stored? Is it directly in a html file or can they be processed before being diplayed? If you could do some processing on the file then perhaps you could write a script to replace all the new lines with br/ and all the spaces with 'hard' spaces and then wrap the whole poem in a 'poem style' div. John. - Original Message - From: rudy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry this subject interests me greatly, and i would really like to explore the best way to do this, so i invite comments on this -- in my mind, best way equates to semantic markup, least non-semantic markup, least css, and in particular no css browser hacks... by semantic markup, i mean if it can be done without ids or classes by least non-semantic markup, i mean without divs or spans etc. The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with. The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
rudy wrote: what exactly is your dislike of BR based on? VooDoo, Mumbo-Jumbo and insect carcases. - Stephen The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
rudy, The poet is not technical - you have witnessed me struggle! (Actually I am quite good at technical stuff but the more I do poetry the less my mind wants to get back to it!) Also the poet hates the act of writing down (as with all writers) and anything, just anything that adds to that labour is regarded with hostility. So vote 'cut and paste'. After I discovered pre I could not understand why it is not more widely used. Firefox is making me think again, of course. Joseph So... to quote myself: I would think that since the order of the lines is implicit to the text's meaning, that an ordered list would be most appropriate... yeah, but you could say the same for anything, for example the sentences in a typical paragraph -- mix their order around and the paragraph loses meaning just as easily as a poem loses its meaning when its lines are resequenced (although a mish-mashed poem might still actually have some beauty) so i don't buy that rationalization ;o) however, i quite like the solution (nested lists) anyway and then you've got a semantically rich container for the textual content that ... i disagree with this an ordered list for a series of lines (or series of stanzas) is semantically no more rich than an ordered list for a series of paragraphs how many html authors have page content which consists of a series of Ps? -- are these typically nested inside an ordered list? didn't think so ;o) http://mechavox.com/sandbox/poem_markup.html as i said, i quite like that if i weren't so busy i'd build one with Ps and BRs what exactly is your dislike of BR based on? rudy The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
Ah! Now that is an idea John. I do want to put a store on the server for a random poem interaction. All I have to do now is learn a bit more... My poems can be: a) intro b) first title c) second title d) intro e) at last the poem f) tailpiece; only e) is verse, b) and c) are hs. (Mostly b) and e) with a) or e)) Joseph Hmm, How are the poems being stored? Is it directly in a html file or can they be processed before being diplayed? If you could do some processing on the file then perhaps you could write a script to replace all the new lines with br/ and all the spaces with 'hard' spaces and then wrap the whole poem in a 'poem style' div. John. - Original Message - From: rudy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry this subject interests me greatly, and i would really like to explore the best way to do this, so i invite comments on this -- in my mind, best way equates to semantic markup, least non-semantic markup, least css, and in particular no css browser hacks... by semantic markup, i mean if it can be done without ids or classes by least non-semantic markup, i mean without divs or spans etc. The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
what exactly is your dislike of BR based on? VooDoo, Mumbo-Jumbo and insect carcases. i'm sorry, i was asking a serious question if those are your only objections, may i welcome you into the 21st century, where they are a piffle ;o) rudy The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:23:42 -, John Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm, How are the poems being stored? Is it directly in a html file or can they be processed before being diplayed? If you could do some processing on the file then perhaps you could write a script to replace all the new lines with br/ With php, if your poem is stored in a text field in say, MySQL, you can automagically make the \r\n breaks output as html with nl2br transforming them to br / : echo nl2br(some string in the db); -- cheers, Mark MG Web Services www.mgwebservices.ca Your Canadian West Coast web site development and hosting solution. The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] or use the web interface http://e-newsletters.internet.com/discussionlists.html/ Send Your Posts To: wdvltalk@lists.wdvl.com To change subscription settings, add a password or view the web interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/read/?forum=wdvltalk http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe via postal mail, please contact us at: Jupitermedia Corp. Attn: Discussion List Management 475 Park Avenue South New York, NY 10016 Please include the email address which you have been contacted with.
Re: [wdvltalk] markup for poetry
Piffle! Piffle!!! I know a Macumba Priestess that would happily
prove you wrong. Okay, that's a lie, but still... piffle. really.
I *was* joking though... I was on the way out and found it quick and amusing.
My objections are actually along the lines of the fact that br/ tags
are usually a byproduct of sloppy coding practices. They are purely
presentational and there is, I contest (as does my glass of Pinot
Grigio) utterly no use for them other than as a kludge... Which I use
them for occasionally, afterward engage in ritualistic
self-flagellation (more mumbo-jumbo, but of the Christian variety).
I do use them, but only when I've got a layout that involves floats
that have no sensible manner of clearing the floats. I typically add
the following to my CSS:
br{clear:both;}
and will employ the occasional br/ at the bottom of a container with
floats inside of it to ensure it extends its background to the bottom
of the floats. But it could as well be an empty div or a span with a
nonbreaking space I choose br/ because I don't use it anywhere
else, it's only 5 characters long and is self closing.
Further to that, I put forth the challenge (and would be happy to be
proved wrong) to find a use for br/ where semantic markup and CSS
wouldn't do the job just as well or better.
- Stephen
(who obviously now has the time and wine [or is it whine] to reply)
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:25:09 -0500, rudy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
what exactly is your dislike of BR based on?
VooDoo, Mumbo-Jumbo and insect carcases.
i'm sorry, i was asking a serious question
if those are your only objections, may i welcome you into the 21st century,
where they are a piffle
;o)
rudy
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