[Web-SIG] Announcing bobo
Bobo is a light-weight framework for creating WSGI web applications. It's goal is to be easy to use and remember. You don't have to be a genius. It addresses 2 problems: - Mapping URLs to objects - Calling objects to generate HTTP responses Bobo doesn't have a templateing language, a database integration layer, or a number of other features that can be provided by WSGI middle-ware or application-specific libraries. Bobo builds on other frameworks, most notably WSGI and WebOb. To learn more. visit: http://bobo.digicool.com Jim -- Jim Fulton Zope Corporation ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo
On 2009-06-16, Etienne Robillard robillard.etie...@gmail.com wrote: Nothing very new here. At least next time try to be a little more creative, otherwise this is getting slightly boring and repetitive... I think that's a bit rough, but indeed there are quite a few frameworks / components that do this thing and I kind of don't get why people want to write their apps that way. I wonder if Jim or anyone else could explain the rationale behind all these URL routing libraries. Nobody minds calling functions from other functions -- that's basics of programming, but for some reason URL dispatching is seen as something different. Why? This is not a criticism, I just really would like to understand this. -Sergey ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo
At 05:19 PM 6/16/2009 +0200, Martijn Faassen wrote: Hey, On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Etienne Robillardrobillard.etie...@gmail.com wrote: Nothing very new here. At least next time try to be a little more creative, otherwise this is getting slightly boring and repetitive... It's a bit rich to call Jim Fulton uncreative concerning web development. I suggest you delve into the history of Python web development for a bit. Of course back in '97 there was more to invent than there is today. Surely Etienne is joking, since anybody who knows Python web development should know that Bobo was actually the first Python web framework ever developed, 12 years ago, and that it invented quite a lot of the things found in Python web frameworks today, not to mention being the forerunner of all things Zope. It's rather nice to see it back, reincarnated on today's egg/WSGI infrastructure. The original Bobo was what convinced me to become a Python programmer 12 years ago. (...after I realized that a Bobo-equivalent framework could not be implemented in Perl without far greater wizardry than I was capable of managing, while in Python it was nearly trivial to do so. I left Perl and never looked back.) ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo
Martin, I don't care about '97, pretty much. I think that if this Jim guy has lots of experience then at least he could not pretend that other people works are made by/for geniuses, which is probably untrue anyway. There's other ways to advertise a open source project. One method is to discriminate other projects, thus making it's own work appears better in some ways or another. Of courses this has nothing to do in being a genius.. You don't have to be a genius to copy-and-paste things. regards, Etienne Martijn Faassen wrote: Hey, On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Etienne Robillardrobillard.etie...@gmail.com wrote: Nothing very new here. At least next time try to be a little more creative, otherwise this is getting slightly boring and repetitive... It's a bit rich to call Jim Fulton uncreative concerning web development. I suggest you delve into the history of Python web development for a bit. Of course back in '97 there was more to invent than there is today. Regards, Martijn -- Etienne Robillard robillard.etie...@gmail.com Green Tea Hackers Club http://gthc.org/ Blog: http://gthc.org/blog/ PGP Fingerprint: AED6 B33B B41D 5F4F A92A 2B71 874C FB27 F3A9 BDCC ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo
Nobody minds calling functions from other functions -- that's basics of programming, but for some reason URL dispatching is seen as something different. Why? I don't know, but every time I see a strange data structure with regular expressions in it that is supposed to define my web application URL structure, my skin crawls. I think the simplicity of FILE_PATH==URL is one of the main reasons for the popularity of PHP -- other than that I can't think of any excuse for PHP. If python had a framework that had a simple and straightforward organization 5 to 10 years ago I don't think either PHP or Ruby/Rails would have ever evolved. BTW, this was one of the primary reasons I created WHIFF -- I wanted a structure where I just dropped files into a directory and they were automatically treated as applications or middlewares with an URL derived from the file path with associated services which could be combined in a natural fashion... There wasn't anything like that available, so I had to create it. -- Aaron Watters === http://aaron.oirt.rutgers.edu/myapp/amcharts/doc http://aaron.oirt.rutgers.edu/myapp/docs/W1500.whyIsWhiffCool less is more. ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo
Hey, On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Etienne Robillardrobillard.etie...@gmail.com wrote: I don't care about '97, pretty much. Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it. :) I think that if this Jim guy has lots of experience then at least he could not pretend that other people works are made by/for geniuses, which is probably untrue anyway. There's other ways to advertise a open source project I think you misread him. He said it the goal is for it to be simple, he didn't say other people's works are complicated. Besides; I think Jim would be the first to admit that some of his other works are actually a bit harder to understand for other people. Zope 2 and Zope 3, which Jim both designed, are considered by many to be more than a little bit intimidating. One method is to discriminate other projects, thus making it's own work appears better in some ways or another. Of courses this has nothing to do in being a genius.. You don't have to be a genius to copy-and-paste things. You're reading things that Jim didn't write anywhere as far as I know. He doesn't compare Bobo with anything else. He just states what the goal is. What he does say is that he built Bobo on other people's work, giving it credit. Regards, Martijn ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Etienne Robillardrobillard.etie...@gmail.com wrote: Martin, I don't care about '97, pretty much. I think that if this Jim guy has lots of experience then at least he could not pretend that other people works are made by/for geniuses, which is probably untrue anyway. How do you know that Jim believes this? I don't see anything in his initial announcement (or in skimming the documentation) that implies you should choose Bobo over any other framework. There's other ways to advertise a open source project. One method is to discriminate other projects, thus making it's own work appears better in some ways or another. Of courses this has nothing to do in being a genius.. You don't have to be a genius to copy-and-paste things. Again, this seems to be a stretch. Jim simply sent a message letting people know about Bobo. I for one appreciate that, as it's useful for me to have different tools in my toolkit for approaching different problems. Bobo may share features (or non-features) with other frameworks (web.py comes to mind) but that doesn't mean it's copy and paste. This feels like an ad hominem argument which is both surprising and unproductive. Nathan regards, Etienne Martijn Faassen wrote: Hey, On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Etienne Robillardrobillard.etie...@gmail.com wrote: Nothing very new here. At least next time try to be a little more creative, otherwise this is getting slightly boring and repetitive... It's a bit rich to call Jim Fulton uncreative concerning web development. I suggest you delve into the history of Python web development for a bit. Of course back in '97 there was more to invent than there is today. Regards, Martijn -- Etienne Robillard robillard.etie...@gmail.com Green Tea Hackers Club http://gthc.org/ Blog: http://gthc.org/blog/ PGP Fingerprint: AED6 B33B B41D 5F4F A92A 2B71 874C FB27 F3A9 BDCC ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/nathan%40yergler.net ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo
Jim Fulton wrote: Bobo is a light-weight framework for creating WSGI web applications. It's goal is to be easy to use and remember. You don't have to be a genius. It addresses 2 problems: - Mapping URLs to objects - Calling objects to generate HTTP responses Bobo doesn't have a templateing language, a database integration layer, or a number of other features that can be provided by WSGI middle-ware or application-specific libraries. Bobo builds on other frameworks, most notably WSGI and WebOb. To learn more. visit: http://bobo.digicool.com Jim -- Jim Fulton Zope Corporation Thanks Jim! d ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo
Hey, On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Aaron Wattersarw1...@yahoo.com wrote: [snip] If python had a framework that had a simple and straightforward organization 5 to 10 years ago I don't think either PHP or Ruby/Rails would have ever evolved. 5 years ago would've been far too late for PHP. Even 10 years ago; PHP has been around since '95 and I think was fairly popular quite soon. Even Rails goes back to '04 - not sure when it got really popular. (anyway, I know you were around back then and before me, I just like history) In general, I don't think there's anything that could stop people from creating their own new web frameworks. :) At best we can aim to reuse bits and pieces and work towards making that easier. Regards, Martijn ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo
Hey, don't you people know that you could use a more polite word than Hey to salute people ? I'm just telling my own views. If you disagree then please say something more meaningful than this. Who cares what you know. Senthil Kumaran wrote: On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:15:29PM -0400, Etienne Robillard wrote: I think that if this Jim guy has lots of experience then at least he could not pretend that other people works are made by/for geniuses, which is probably untrue anyway. Hey, I don't understand why are being so negative with your comments. Does not sound good. I surely dont know what your contributions are, but I do know what Jim Fulton's contributions are. -- Etienne Robillard robillard.etie...@gmail.com Green Tea Hackers Club http://gthc.org/ Blog: http://gthc.org/blog/ PGP Fingerprint: AED6 B33B B41D 5F4F A92A 2B71 874C FB27 F3A9 BDCC ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo
I recommend you quit using latin to try looking smarter. ;) I do I'm discouraged to see so much adversion between Python web frameworks fighting for the same goal. To say that you don't to be a genius implies that all other web frameworks are made for geniuses, which is probably offending for less-mature projects. Of courses I might have misread or taking for granted that this was a totally new project.. My apologies then to Jim... ;) Regards, Etienne This feels like an ad hominem argument which is both surprising and unproductive. Nathan regards, Etienne Martijn Faassen wrote: Hey, On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Etienne Robillardrobillard.etie...@gmail.com wrote: Nothing very new here. At least next time try to be a little more creative, otherwise this is getting slightly boring and repetitive... It's a bit rich to call Jim Fulton uncreative concerning web development. I suggest you delve into the history of Python web development for a bit. Of course back in '97 there was more to invent than there is today. Regards, Martijn -- Etienne Robillard robillard.etie...@gmail.com Green Tea Hackers Club http://gthc.org/ Blog: http://gthc.org/blog/ PGP Fingerprint: AED6 B33B B41D 5F4F A92A 2B71 874C FB27 F3A9 BDCC ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/nathan%40yergler.net -- Etienne Robillard robillard.etie...@gmail.com Green Tea Hackers Club http://gthc.org/ Blog: http://gthc.org/blog/ PGP Fingerprint: AED6 B33B B41D 5F4F A92A 2B71 874C FB27 F3A9 BDCC ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:51:48PM -0400, Etienne Robillard wrote: Hey, don't you people know that you could use a more polite word than Hey to salute people ? I'm just telling my own views. If you disagree then please say something more meaningful than this. Who cares what you know. Sorry for that. I wrote that immediately after reading your response. Others have responded more appropriately. Thank you, Senthil ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo
Typical. The first time I make the effort to reply to the list, I reply-to-sender rather than to-list. I'm a muppet. Anyway, reply below Begin forwarded message: From: Jason Briggs jasonrbri...@gmail.com Date: 16 June 2009 20:04:46 BST To: Etienne Robillard robillard.etie...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo Ad hominen isn't using latin to look smart. It's a common-term description of a type of argument... which just happens to be latin. You probably already knew that, but based on your previous emails I wasn't sure -- so just for your info. J On 16 Jun 2009, at 18:38, Etienne Robillard wrote: I recommend you quit using latin to try looking smarter. ;) I do I'm discouraged to see so much adversion between Python web frameworks fighting for the same goal. To say that you don't to be a genius implies that all other web frameworks are made for geniuses, which is probably offending for less-mature projects. Of courses I might have misread or taking for granted that this was a totally new project.. My apologies then to Jim... ;) Regards, Etienne This feels like an ad hominem argument which is both surprising and unproductive. Nathan ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo
Hey all, I think we can pretty safely ignore Etienne as either a troll or an unnecessarily rude person. Has anyone looked at Bobo yet? I'd be interested in comparisons between it and Quixote, which is what I've mostly used in the past. I believe that Bobo begat Zope, which begat Quixote as (I thought) an attempt to return to Bobo-style programming, and so I'm curious about what sort of choices Bobo has made. thanks, --titus -- C. Titus Brown, c...@msu.edu ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo
Pfft, I bet this thread would have never happened without my initial intervention. Likewise, I think you're just using this thread for your own interests, disregarding my own arguments on why web frameworks are so hard to cope with. If you want to start a thread for Bobo, please switch mailing-list or create a new thread, as all I wanted was to tell Jim my disappointement regarding Bobo, and I still think its not very revolutionary. Regards, Etienne C. Titus Brown wrote: Hey all, I think we can pretty safely ignore Etienne as either a troll or an unnecessarily rude person. Has anyone looked at Bobo yet? I'd be interested in comparisons between it and Quixote, which is what I've mostly used in the past. I believe that Bobo begat Zope, which begat Quixote as (I thought) an attempt to return to Bobo-style programming, and so I'm curious about what sort of choices Bobo has made. thanks, --titus -- Etienne Robillard robillard.etie...@gmail.com Green Tea Hackers Club http://gthc.org/ Blog: http://gthc.org/blog/ PGP Fingerprint: AED6 B33B B41D 5F4F A92A 2B71 874C FB27 F3A9 BDCC ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Web-SIG] FYI: nbhttp
I've recently put up a library that I've been working on for a little while, nbhttp: http://github.com/mnot/nbhttp/tree/master nb stands for non-blocking; this is explicitly an asynchronous/event- driven library, with both a server and a client component. They can be trivially used together to implement a proxy. The aim is to be HTTP/1.1 compliant (and it's most of the way there, with the exceptions of expect/continue and pipelining support), to be as performant as possible, and to expose as much of the raw protocol as possible. That last motiviation is because nbhttp is used by REDbot http://redbot.org/ , a HTTP resource checker, and it needs deep access into what's happening on the wire (without intervening software trying to be helpful). It is very rough, mostly undocumented, and will probably crash. It is WSGI-like, but not WSGI compatible, because there were a few places where WSGI was too constraining. However, it may be useful as food for thought in API revisions. Or not. :) Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham http://www.mnot.net/ ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Web-SIG] FYI: nbhttp
2009/6/17 Mark Nottingham m...@mnot.net: I've recently put up a library that I've been working on for a little while, nbhttp: http://github.com/mnot/nbhttp/tree/master nb stands for non-blocking; this is explicitly an asynchronous/event-driven library, with both a server and a client component. They can be trivially used together to implement a proxy. The aim is to be HTTP/1.1 compliant (and it's most of the way there, with the exceptions of expect/continue and pipelining support), to be as performant as possible, and to expose as much of the raw protocol as possible. That last motiviation is because nbhttp is used by REDbot http://redbot.org/, a HTTP resource checker, and it needs deep access into what's happening on the wire (without intervening software trying to be helpful). It is very rough, mostly undocumented, and will probably crash. It is WSGI-like, but not WSGI compatible, because there were a few places where WSGI was too constraining. However, it may be useful as food for thought in API revisions. Or not. :) Can you explain the difference to WSGI so that don't have to go digging through source code to work it out, or is there documentation somewhere which explains it? Graham ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Web-SIG] Announcing bobo
[Etienne] If you want to start a thread for Bobo, please switch mailing-list or create a new thread, as all I wanted was to tell Jim my disappointement regarding Bobo, and I still think its not very revolutionary. I completely disagree; this is definitely the appopriate list for discussing web frameworks and new approaches. There is no perfect framework in python, or any other language. It is only with the introduction, discussion, acceptance and assimilation of new ideas that we all move forward together. Jim has the longest history of all in Python web frameworks; he created the very concept. He founded and built the entire Zope community; I will always listen to what he has to say. I wish you the best of luck with your own web framework, notmm http://gthc.org/projects/notmm/0.2.12/ Which seems to have some potential, but currently lacks community support. http://gthc.org/community/ I'm looking forward to Europython, where I know I'll be meeting some great python folks, and hopefully some of us will get to continue our WSGI revision discussions. All the best, Alan. ___ Web-SIG mailing list Web-SIG@python.org Web SIG: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/web-sig/archive%40mail-archive.com
