Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
On 28/04/2011 Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> fragmentation of the knowledge, etc. There just is no point in
> creating more and more forums.
I agree on this.
> The problem is with the ads the libreofficeforum.org uses.
Yes, so far. But once this is solved, there could still be problems with
the domain name and the LibreOffice Trademark Policy
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TradeMark_Policy
("Non Permitted Use: ... any way that indicates a greater degree of
association between you and TDF than actually exists"). But I don't know
how this and other parts of the Trademark Policy must be interpreted in
concrete terms.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
Hi and sorry for top posting here, but I think you will forgive me. I just wanted to copy the text of a message i put to the discussion going on in the Admin section of the OO.o community forum about my request there - why? Because it fits here also - I really an happy about some of the questions here and how they are phrased and as in that message will directly pass on my thoughts to each - but tomorrow sorry --- Good morning from Cumberland, I can't say I didn't expect to see some good questions and well thought opinions, nor that I would get a few PMs and emails - I am a bit surprised by how many of each I've received and truly am surprised, in a good way, by who some of those mails are from. There are many direct questions I need to address on this discussion thread and on mailing lists. that will require some back and forth of posts. I ask your indulgence however for today - there is also a meeting this afternoon on other LibreOffice subjects that will take all my time today, but I will, without fail tomorrow morning. I'll try to respond to some of the direct correspondence late this evening, for some it will be to ask if I can copy the mail to this list and answer/discuss your questions here in public (tomorrow). Thanks very much and I'll be looking forward to tomorrow, Sincerely Drew --- On Thu, 2011-04-28 at 13:26 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote: > Hi Michael, *, > > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Michael Münch > wrote: > > > > I know there are a lot of discussions already going on in this thread > > but do we already have a consensus about linking to webforums not driven > > by the document foundation? > > It's not a question who runs the forum - in fact there is no forum run > by "The Document Foundation" - and none is planned, as there are other > forums already, and creating yet another one would just cause > fragmentation of the knowledge, etc. There just is no point in > creating more and more forums. > > The problem is with the ads the libreofficeforum.org uses. > > > Apart from minor problems, like if one specific forum has to many/the > > wrong type of ads, what do you want to express with such a link. I would > > say most of the visitors will see it as an "we approve and recommend > > this forum" whatever the exact phrasing of the sentence above the links > > will be. > > Exactly. And "approving" a forum that shows ads is what I personally > have a problem with. (and others share similar feelings) > > > But can you really officially approve a forum that is not running on > > your own infrastructure? > > Yes.. > > > What do you know about the privacy of the > > userdata and if it they are processed accordantly to the different laws > > Well, wherever the forum is hosted, it should have proper privacy statements. > > > (see the SONY/Apple discussions now in the media). What about rude > > behaviour/harassment in personal messages as an other example. The > > hardest consequence you can take if the forum gets out of hand is to > > remove the link and this is a rather weak one. But that this forum was > > linked officially linked from our website will be remembered much > > longer. > > Well if the forum gets out of hands wrt. low quality of answers/no > answers at all or problems with moderators and spamming, the problem > solves itself. And yes, removing the link would be the only option. > But a forum that is treated as a valuable ressource by its users will > not degrade that easily. It's only those forums that don't have a > strong userbase that will rot along. > > > [...] > > If somewhat later there are enough resources to build up an forum on own > > infrastructure > > It's not about the ressources. It's about whether it makes sense or > not. And IMHO it absolutely doesn't make sense to setup an own > user-support forum. > > > with a detailed plan how to connect threads about bugs > > with bugzilla in both directions, how to take input from the forum into > > the mailing lists / teams / committees and how to keep the users up to > > date about the discussions on the mailing lists. > > Duplication of that info/forwarding it to relevant parties is up to > the users frequenting the forums. > > ciao > Christian > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
Hi Michael, *, On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Michael Münch wrote: > > I know there are a lot of discussions already going on in this thread > but do we already have a consensus about linking to webforums not driven > by the document foundation? It's not a question who runs the forum - in fact there is no forum run by "The Document Foundation" - and none is planned, as there are other forums already, and creating yet another one would just cause fragmentation of the knowledge, etc. There just is no point in creating more and more forums. The problem is with the ads the libreofficeforum.org uses. > Apart from minor problems, like if one specific forum has to many/the > wrong type of ads, what do you want to express with such a link. I would > say most of the visitors will see it as an "we approve and recommend > this forum" whatever the exact phrasing of the sentence above the links > will be. Exactly. And "approving" a forum that shows ads is what I personally have a problem with. (and others share similar feelings) > But can you really officially approve a forum that is not running on > your own infrastructure? Yes.. > What do you know about the privacy of the > userdata and if it they are processed accordantly to the different laws Well, wherever the forum is hosted, it should have proper privacy statements. > (see the SONY/Apple discussions now in the media). What about rude > behaviour/harassment in personal messages as an other example. The > hardest consequence you can take if the forum gets out of hand is to > remove the link and this is a rather weak one. But that this forum was > linked officially linked from our website will be remembered much > longer. Well if the forum gets out of hands wrt. low quality of answers/no answers at all or problems with moderators and spamming, the problem solves itself. And yes, removing the link would be the only option. But a forum that is treated as a valuable ressource by its users will not degrade that easily. It's only those forums that don't have a strong userbase that will rot along. > [...] > If somewhat later there are enough resources to build up an forum on own > infrastructure It's not about the ressources. It's about whether it makes sense or not. And IMHO it absolutely doesn't make sense to setup an own user-support forum. > with a detailed plan how to connect threads about bugs > with bugzilla in both directions, how to take input from the forum into > the mailing lists / teams / committees and how to keep the users up to > date about the discussions on the mailing lists. Duplication of that info/forwarding it to relevant parties is up to the users frequenting the forums. ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
Hi *, Am Dienstag, den 26.04.2011, 20:17 +0800 schrieb David Nelson: > Hi, :-) > > I've updated the Getting Help page on LibreOffice.org with links to > some external forums, and also added information about the Nabble > gateway to put it forward more prominently. See [1]. > > [1] http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ > > David Nelson I know there are a lot of discussions already going on in this thread but do we already have a consensus about linking to webforums not driven by the document foundation? Apart from minor problems, like if one specific forum has to many/the wrong type of ads, what do you want to express with such a link. I would say most of the visitors will see it as an "we approve and recommend this forum" whatever the exact phrasing of the sentence above the links will be. But can you really officially approve a forum that is not running on your own infrastructure? What do you know about the privacy of the userdata and if it they are processed accordantly to the different laws (see the SONY/Apple discussions now in the media). What about rude behaviour/harassment in personal messages as an other example. The hardest consequence you can take if the forum gets out of hand is to remove the link and this is a rather weak one. But that this forum was linked officially linked from our website will be remembered much longer. On the other hand what can we gain from it? The most often heard argument is that the ordinary user expects a web based forum, but to be honest if this user already knows about his preference of web forums instead of mailing lists, does he really look for a link on the libreoffice webpage or does he rather go to google.com and type "libreoffice forum". I do not feel that these links are worth all these mails, discussions and anger. If somewhat later there are enough resources to build up an forum on own infrastructure with a detailed plan how to connect threads about bugs with bugzilla in both directions, how to take input from the forum into the mailing lists / teams / committees and how to keep the users up to date about the discussions on the mailing lists. Then is the time to think about the topic web forum again. Michael -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
On Wed, 2011-04-27 at 00:59 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote: > Hi *, > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 5:48 PM, drew wrote: > > On Tue, 2011-04-26 at 23:40 +0800, David Nelson wrote: > >> On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 23:43, Charles-H. Schulz > >> wrote: > > > > Also, if no one minds I would like to start a new thread on the discuss > > list for this, the current one is a bit long in the tooth - but before I > > do would like to do two things: > > > > One - a quick run over the the OO.o user services admin board to make a > > proposal to them, which I think they will be ok with and would like to > > be sure before I offer it as a compromise. > > Is this sentence missing a part? I don't fully understand it. What > proposal do you want to make? The OOo users.services forum is already > stating that's a resource for both OOo a well as LO users. Hello Christian, It was a bit vague, yes. Well, here is the rest of it. Yesterday I initiated a conversation with the OO.o Community Forum administrators about opening a LibreOffice specific sub-forum at the site. This is a large step beyond just having the name LibreOffice in the header. (as an aside, and since there seems to be some confusion on this - the Community Forum is not official in that Oracle has no ownership or management role in the forum, it offers gratis hosting services only, the site is owned and managed by the Volunteers Group within the forum) The LibreOffice forum would be a sub-form within the overall site structure, and as such can be referenced directly from a URL - so for instance instead of listing "OpenOffice.org User Services Forum" on our support page the link could be "LibreOffice Forum at OpenOffice.org Community Forums" and have the link take the user directly to the LibreOffice specific section. The LibreOffice sub-forum would be added at the lop level of the English OO.o Forum (for now this would be the English forum only), for visibility to suers enter the forums normally. (NOT at the Language level which is the very top of the site hierarchy) This would be a flat forum, no module breakdown, so this is a compromise for now - of course the module areas are available as normal to the users and moderators can move messages to appropriate area when needed. I'll skip more details for this email, but can cover those as needed. So where is that is - One of the moderators wrote a, well thought out, argument against doing this, another wrote a strong argument for doing this (including possibilities as to where this could lead) - each asked a few questions of me during that and the responses are included. Today, I will create a voting poll for the general membership (Vols Group) an draft a message to the members presenting the idea and calling for the vote. The poll will run for 7 days or until all members have voted, if 7 days a simple majority will carry the vote. Please - thoughts and questions from everyone. Thanks Drew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
Hi *, On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 5:48 PM, drew wrote: > On Tue, 2011-04-26 at 23:40 +0800, David Nelson wrote: >> On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 23:43, Charles-H. Schulz >> wrote: > > Also, if no one minds I would like to start a new thread on the discuss > list for this, the current one is a bit long in the tooth - but before I > do would like to do two things: > > One - a quick run over the the OO.o user services admin board to make a > proposal to them, which I think they will be ok with and would like to > be sure before I offer it as a compromise. Is this sentence missing a part? I don't fully understand it. What proposal do you want to make? The OOo users.services forum is already stating that's a resource for both OOo a well as LO users. But that is one of the *.services.openoffice.org parts that are hosted at Oracle in Hamburg IIRC, so future of the server is not clear. It might move to OSUOSL that is running other parts of the OOo infrastructure. > A plan? Sure - and to be clear about it: * I have a problem with flagging a forum that uses ads as "official" * I don't have a problem with listing it with the additional remark "makes use of ads" or similar. * I have a problem with listing the "ads-forum" when the other existing ones are not listed at the same place. So I'd very much prefer this: * Having the forum that is now users.services.openoffice.org as the "official" one - but that of course depends son the future of the OOo-Project and its infrastructure. * Listing other forums in two categories: Those with adds, and those that are ads-free And that list should be pretty complete as to our best knowledge. i.e. libreofficeforum.org (uses ads) libreoffice-forum.de (ads-free), de.openoffice.info (ads-free), ... But I don't like the term "official" - as main communication medium is the mailinglists, the forums are completely independent, mostly driven and frequented by users who aren't necessarily involved with the actual development of LibreOffice (that happens on the mailinglists) And I still dislike that there are so many forums, even more so when all are using the same forum-software. What is the difference in having 5 or more different phpBB forums? That just splits the supporters (those with knowledge to answer posts) into 5 or more groups... But I fully agree to let it rest a little ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
On Tue, 2011-04-26 at 18:18 +0200, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: > Drew, > > > > > ps - oh yeah the second thing, any past statements not withstanding - > > I ought to give the MC the chance to turn me down.. > > > > I think you ought, they won't miss the opportunity to vet you :-) God don;t I know it > > > -- > Charles-H. Schulz > Membre du Comité exécutif > The Document Foundation. > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
Drew, > > ps - oh yeah the second thing, any past statements not withstanding - > I ought to give the MC the chance to turn me down.. > I think you ought, they won't miss the opportunity to vet you :-) -- Charles-H. Schulz Membre du Comité exécutif The Document Foundation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
On Tue, 2011-04-26 at 23:40 +0800, David Nelson wrote: > Hi, :-) > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 23:43, Charles-H. Schulz > wrote: > >> IMO, and that is all it is at this point, the link to > >> LibreOfficeForum.org for sure should come down and please come with me > >> to the discuss list and let us see what happens, if you would. > >> > > +1 to all the above, Drew. Hi, > > OK, guys, then I have removed the link to LibreOfficeForum.org, with > my regrets to the webmaster involved. See [1]. Thanks - I think Sam will understand, I hope so anyway. For myself - let's just let it sit for the moment. Also, if no one minds I would like to start a new thread on the discuss list for this, the current one is a bit long in the tooth - but before I do would like to do two things: One - a quick run over the the OO.o user services admin board to make a proposal to them, which I think they will be ok with and would like to be sure before I offer it as a compromise. A plan? Thanks Drew ps - oh yeah the second thing, any past statements not withstanding - I ought to give the MC the chance to turn me down.. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
Hi, :-) On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 23:43, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: >> IMO, and that is all it is at this point, the link to >> LibreOfficeForum.org for sure should come down and please come with me >> to the discuss list and let us see what happens, if you would. >> > +1 to all the above, Drew. OK, guys, then I have removed the link to LibreOfficeForum.org, with my regrets to the webmaster involved. See [1]. Any others to add or remove? [1] http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
Hi, Le Tue, 26 Apr 2011 11:11:22 -0400, drew a écrit : > On Tue, 2011-04-26 at 21:59 +0800, David Nelson wrote: > > Hi, :-) > > > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 21:07, drew wrote: > > > Hi David > > > > > > You should of read the entire 'forums again' thread on the > > > discuss list and therefore you must of known that there are at > > > least three community members quite strongly opposed to at least > > > one of those links and that the question on the other two was not > > > settled. > > > > > Hi Tim > > > > > > > You want in that discussion, then get in it, but you do not have > > > cart blanch to arbitrarily act when the issue is obviously not > > > settled. > > > > > > Please remove those links, ASAP. > > > > I posted those links subsequent to Charles Schulz's comment on them > > (in this thread), and subsequent to again reading complaints > > recently about the lack of support forums > > If I may offer my opinion here on two slightly tangential subjects - > in an open discussion Charles Schulz of the Steering Committee is just > Charles Schulz. (sorry Charles, but think of it this way, at least I > didn't call you Chuck :-/ ) Oh, I agree. I'm of the opinion that, as my grand father used to say, on whatever seat one's sitting on he's always sitting on his own bum. :-) > > Also - You are filling a very visible position in the community at > present with the international website and you need to be very > cognizant of that. That really is the best advice I can give you. > > Ok back to the subject of the forum links - this thread? It is 2 > months old. While the subject on the discussion list has ~60 emails > over the last 9 days and really it is obvious that there are a couple > of different strongly held opinion groups, all of which seem to have > their backs up against the proverbial wall right now. > > I really don't think that any of the links are appropriate for today - > or at least not without taking on the issue directly, which means > engaging in the current discussion. On that I can offer this help - I > was wrong to disengage the other day and will be happy to get back to > it in a constructive way and let us see if there isn't a compromise > that everyone can live with - I think it may of been getting close. > > > > and the lack of prominence of the > > Nabble gateway. > > Different subject and frankly that was the one thing you probably > could of changed today and no one would of minded - I think. > > > > > If you would like forums added or removed, tell me specifically > > which and I'll be pleased to make the changes. > > IMO, and that is all it is at this point, the link to > LibreOfficeForum.org for sure should come down and please come with me > to the discuss list and let us see what happens, if you would. > +1 to all the above, Drew. -- Charles-H. Schulz Membre du Comité exécutif The Document Foundation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
On Tue, 2011-04-26 at 21:59 +0800, David Nelson wrote: > Hi, :-) > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 21:07, drew wrote: > > Hi David > > > > You should of read the entire 'forums again' thread on the discuss list > > and therefore you must of known that there are at least three community > > members quite strongly opposed to at least one of those links and that > > the question on the other two was not settled. > > Hi Tim > > > > You want in that discussion, then get in it, but you do not have cart > > blanch to arbitrarily act when the issue is obviously not settled. > > > > Please remove those links, ASAP. > > I posted those links subsequent to Charles Schulz's comment on them > (in this thread), and subsequent to again reading complaints recently > about the lack of support forums If I may offer my opinion here on two slightly tangential subjects - in an open discussion Charles Schulz of the Steering Committee is just Charles Schulz. (sorry Charles, but think of it this way, at least I didn't call you Chuck :-/ ) Also - You are filling a very visible position in the community at present with the international website and you need to be very cognizant of that. That really is the best advice I can give you. Ok back to the subject of the forum links - this thread? It is 2 months old. While the subject on the discussion list has ~60 emails over the last 9 days and really it is obvious that there are a couple of different strongly held opinion groups, all of which seem to have their backs up against the proverbial wall right now. I really don't think that any of the links are appropriate for today - or at least not without taking on the issue directly, which means engaging in the current discussion. On that I can offer this help - I was wrong to disengage the other day and will be happy to get back to it in a constructive way and let us see if there isn't a compromise that everyone can live with - I think it may of been getting close. > and the lack of prominence of the > Nabble gateway. Different subject and frankly that was the one thing you probably could of changed today and no one would of minded - I think. > > If you would like forums added or removed, tell me specifically which > and I'll be pleased to make the changes. IMO, and that is all it is at this point, the link to LibreOfficeForum.org for sure should come down and please come with me to the discuss list and let us see what happens, if you would. Sincerely, Drew Jensen -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
Hi, :-) On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 21:07, drew wrote: > Hi David > > You should of read the entire 'forums again' thread on the discuss list > and therefore you must of known that there are at least three community > members quite strongly opposed to at least one of those links and that > the question on the other two was not settled. > > Listen - we don't like each other each and every day, but we have to > respect each others opinions > > You want in that discussion, then get in it, but you do not have cart > blanch to arbitrarily act when the issue is obviously not settled. > > Please remove those links, ASAP. I posted those links subsequent to Charles Schulz's comment on them (in this thread), and subsequent to again reading complaints recently about the lack of support forums and the lack of prominence of the Nabble gateway. If you would like forums added or removed, tell me specifically which and I'll be pleased to make the changes. Especially, Charles, what would your comments be? David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
On Tue, 2011-04-26 at 20:17 +0800, David Nelson wrote: > Hi, :-) > > I've updated the Getting Help page on LibreOffice.org with links to > some external forums, and also added information about the Nabble > gateway to put it forward more prominently. See [1]. > > [1] http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ > Hi David You should of read the entire 'forums again' thread on the discuss list and therefore you must of known that there are at least three community members quite strongly opposed to at least one of those links and that the question on the other two was not settled. Listen - we don't like each other each and every day, but we have to respect each others opinions You want in that discussion, then get in it, but you do not have cart blanch to arbitrarily act when the issue is obviously not settled. Please remove those links, ASAP. Sincerely, Drew Jensen -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
Hi David, * David Nelson wrote: > Hi, :-) > > I've updated the Getting Help page on LibreOffice.org with links to > some external forums, and also added information about the Nabble > gateway to put it forward more prominently. See [1]. > > [1] http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ You're sure you did this in compliance with the communty's wishes? If I remember correctly the discussion on forums stated already some months ago that it doesn't seem to be reasonable to send people off to different forums. Diversification leads to split power and costs resources (not only physical, but man-power too). It's great that you start involving the community in your decisions. But it would be even better, if this could be done beforehand. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
Hi, :-) I've updated the Getting Help page on LibreOffice.org with links to some external forums, and also added information about the Nabble gateway to put it forward more prominently. See [1]. [1] http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
Hello everyone, Le Tue, 01 Feb 2011 13:04:53 -0500, drew a écrit : > On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 02:29 +0100, Andrea Pescetti wrote: > > On 31/01/2011 drew wrote: > > > On Mon, 2011-01-31 at 07:56 +0100, Stefan Weigel wrote: > > > > For me, there is absolutely nothing against presenting support > > > > for LibreOffice at sites that use OpenOffice.org branding. > > > > I'd say I agree with Stefan's opinion here; but in general my point > > would be that the rebranding will mean a significantly reduced > > visibility in search engines (since all links will point to the old > > site), with the effect of hiding the work of volunteers over years; > > so while a rebranding could make sense in theory, I see some > > practical problems with it (problems that did not apply for > > instance to OOoAuthors: there the rebranding is welcome and does > > not damage users). > > > > > I can tell you with absolute certainty that some of the people > > > responsible for the decision to support Libo on OO.o project > > > specific sties are doing so out of the same feeling of > > > inclusiveness they applied when supporting Go-OO and NeoOffice. > > > Further that during the discussion to do so there was at no time > > > an agreement in any way that Libo = OO.o > > > > Yes Drew, and this is the cooperation spirit I see on the Italian > > forum now; everyone gives support to everyone for the common parts, > > and specificities are covered correctly and peacefully. > > > > > but there was and is the acceptance that the time will come when > > > the two products are not close enough to be supported on a single > > > site. > > > > This seems a rather forward-looking statement. When the time comes > > that the shared codebase is really tiny I'll agree on this, but I > > don't see it happening reasonably early (say, in 2011). Splitting a > > community that is not split (i.e., making two sites out of one) > > would likely need to be justified by a real difference in code. > > > > Regards, > > Hola Andrea > > Well, I was not speaking of re-branding anything my desire was for > this project to embrace the idea that it is something new and > separate. I will acknowledge that this seems not to be the view of > the majority within the current contributors and speak of it no more. > > Best wishes, > > Drew I think I and others could elaborate why we agree or disagree with respect to the legacy of OOo inside TDF and LibO. But whether one shares the opinion that LibO is the future of OOo or its replacement (which is my opinion) or whether one shares the opinion that it is a new thing, in the end this project is going to bear the legacy of the OOo project and integrate new elements and new beginnings. I think what is perhaps necessary for everyone is that -legacy questions set aside- users convenience is required to think about user forums. The real question in some time (6 months to one year) will be: does it make sense to have an openoffice.org URL? Are the users confused? how about a clearer branding? etc, etc. I would therefore suggest to have a pragmatic approach that also integrates the notion that there is a legacy anyway, knowing it should not hinder anyone for bad reasons, fear, etc. Best, -- Charles-H. Schulz Membre du Comité exécutif The Document Foundation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: RE : [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 02:29 +0100, Andrea Pescetti wrote: > On 31/01/2011 drew wrote: > > On Mon, 2011-01-31 at 07:56 +0100, Stefan Weigel wrote: > > > For me, there is absolutely nothing against presenting support for > > > LibreOffice at sites that use OpenOffice.org branding. > > I'd say I agree with Stefan's opinion here; but in general my point > would be that the rebranding will mean a significantly reduced > visibility in search engines (since all links will point to the old > site), with the effect of hiding the work of volunteers over years; so > while a rebranding could make sense in theory, I see some practical > problems with it (problems that did not apply for instance to > OOoAuthors: there the rebranding is welcome and does not damage users). > > > I can tell you with absolute certainty that some of the people > > responsible for the decision to support Libo on OO.o project specific > > sties are doing so out of the same feeling of inclusiveness they applied > > when supporting Go-OO and NeoOffice. Further that during the discussion > > to do so there was at no time an agreement in any way that Libo = OO.o > > Yes Drew, and this is the cooperation spirit I see on the Italian forum > now; everyone gives support to everyone for the common parts, and > specificities are covered correctly and peacefully. > > > but there was and is the acceptance that the time will come when the two > > products are not close enough to be supported on a single site. > > This seems a rather forward-looking statement. When the time comes that > the shared codebase is really tiny I'll agree on this, but I don't see > it happening reasonably early (say, in 2011). Splitting a community that > is not split (i.e., making two sites out of one) would likely need to be > justified by a real difference in code. > > Regards, Hola Andrea Well, I was not speaking of re-branding anything my desire was for this project to embrace the idea that it is something new and separate. I will acknowledge that this seems not to be the view of the majority within the current contributors and speak of it no more. Best wishes, Drew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: RE : [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
On 31/01/2011 drew wrote: > On Mon, 2011-01-31 at 07:56 +0100, Stefan Weigel wrote: > > For me, there is absolutely nothing against presenting support for > > LibreOffice at sites that use OpenOffice.org branding. I'd say I agree with Stefan's opinion here; but in general my point would be that the rebranding will mean a significantly reduced visibility in search engines (since all links will point to the old site), with the effect of hiding the work of volunteers over years; so while a rebranding could make sense in theory, I see some practical problems with it (problems that did not apply for instance to OOoAuthors: there the rebranding is welcome and does not damage users). > I can tell you with absolute certainty that some of the people > responsible for the decision to support Libo on OO.o project specific > sties are doing so out of the same feeling of inclusiveness they applied > when supporting Go-OO and NeoOffice. Further that during the discussion > to do so there was at no time an agreement in any way that Libo = OO.o Yes Drew, and this is the cooperation spirit I see on the Italian forum now; everyone gives support to everyone for the common parts, and specificities are covered correctly and peacefully. > but there was and is the acceptance that the time will come when the two > products are not close enough to be supported on a single site. This seems a rather forward-looking statement. When the time comes that the shared codebase is really tiny I'll agree on this, but I don't see it happening reasonably early (say, in 2011). Splitting a community that is not split (i.e., making two sites out of one) would likely need to be justified by a real difference in code. Regards, Andrea. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: RE : [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
On Mon, 2011-01-31 at 07:56 +0100, Stefan Weigel wrote: > Hi Michael, > > Am 31.01.2011 04:31, schrieb Michael Wheatland: > > > IMO if we wish to establish LibreOffice as a brand > > [...] > > > it has become clear that we need LibreOffice branded forums for > > product marketing purposes > > Hm? > > http://www.documentfoundation.org/ > > We still *are* the (true) OpenOffice.org community and we still > *are* developing OpenOffice.org. We just use another name due to > some legal issue. > > For me, there is absolutely nothing against presenting support for > LibreOffice at sites that use OpenOffice.org branding. Hi Stefan, I believe your opinion on that is well known. I would hope that you can accept that community members on the OpenOffie.org project that are not on this project may disagree. I can tell you with absolute certainty that some of the people responsible for the decision to support Libo on OO.o project specific sties are doing so out of the same feeling of inclusiveness they applied when supporting Go-OO and NeoOffice. Further that during the discussion to do so there was at no time an agreement in any way that Libo = OO.o but there was and is the acceptance that the time will come when the two products are not close enough to be supported on a single site. Best wishes Drew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: RE : [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:26 PM, Stefan Weigel wrote: > Hi Michael, > > Am 31.01.2011 04:31, schrieb Michael Wheatland: > >> IMO if we wish to establish LibreOffice as a brand > > [...] > >> it has become clear that we need LibreOffice branded forums for >> product marketing purposes > > Hm? > > http://www.documentfoundation.org/ > > We still *are* the (true) OpenOffice.org community and we still > *are* developing OpenOffice.org. We just use another name due to > some legal issue. > > For me, there is absolutely nothing against presenting support for > LibreOffice at sites that use OpenOffice.org branding. Absolutely. I totally agree with you. I think OpenOffice.org branded sites which welcome LibreOffice users is part of the great community spirit, as I hope we will welcome users of OpenOffice.org on our infrastructure. As a 'new brand', regardless of the age of the community, it is also important that we portray a dedication to the users of the product, especially business and government users, that we are fully dedicated to providing ongoing support for the 'LibreOffice' product without ambiguity, whether or not we diverge from the OO.o code in the future. Again, Just my thoughts. Michael Wheatland -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: RE : [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
Hi Michael, Am 31.01.2011 04:31, schrieb Michael Wheatland: > IMO if we wish to establish LibreOffice as a brand [...] > it has become clear that we need LibreOffice branded forums for > product marketing purposes Hm? http://www.documentfoundation.org/ We still *are* the (true) OpenOffice.org community and we still *are* developing OpenOffice.org. We just use another name due to some legal issue. For me, there is absolutely nothing against presenting support for LibreOffice at sites that use OpenOffice.org branding. Stefan -- LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir! -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: RE : [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 3:21 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: > On 28/01/2011 Charles-H. Schulz wrote: >> It's especially the last one in the list but they could get a new url soon, >> so stay tuned. > > Would it really make sense? I perfectly agree with a domain name change > in cases like oooauthors.org -> odfauthors.org, but relocating > http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ > i.e. a forum with 38000 users, seems to me a big move however smooth the > migration can be: search results will need be reindexed and the forum > will lose visibility for what in the end is a purely political issue, > since the forum "neutrality" is clearly stated in the header and is > clearly shown in practice in the threads (at least in the Italian > forum). > > Regards, > Andrea. IMO if we wish to establish LibreOffice as a brand then it is important to establish infrastructure dedicated and branded to our product. A transition from one domain to another does not have to be disruptive as you can setup domain forwarding, hence the search indexing visibility should not be a problem. Politically, it is up to the administrators of the forum, to choose one way or the other, but as has been discussed before, using OpenOffice.org branded infrastructure is confusing for LibreOffice end users. ODFAuthrors has a unique position as they are not directly exposed to the end user, rather their products are distributed through our branded website. Being product neutral is great, but as linux user (example) would you visit a Microsoft branded forum to get advice even if they stated their forum was product neutral? I don't believe that these choices are political, and I have no idea what the administrators are considering, but as per many discussions it has become clear that we need LibreOffice branded forums for product marketing purposes, and I don't mind where they come from, as long as we have them. Just my thoughts, Michael Wheatland -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: RE : [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
On 28/01/2011 Charles-H. Schulz wrote: > It's especially the last one in the list but they could get a new url soon, > so stay tuned. Would it really make sense? I perfectly agree with a domain name change in cases like oooauthors.org -> odfauthors.org, but relocating http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ i.e. a forum with 38000 users, seems to me a big move however smooth the migration can be: search results will need be reindexed and the forum will lose visibility for what in the end is a purely political issue, since the forum "neutrality" is clearly stated in the header and is clearly shown in practice in the threads (at least in the Italian forum). Regards, Andrea. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: RE : [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: > It's especially the last one in the list but they could get a new url soon, > so stay tuned. If it is phpBB based then we will have an opportunity to tie it in with possible future infrastructure including user profile and session sharing. Could be a great boon for the project. Michael Wheatland -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE : [libreoffice-website] Re: On forums for LibreOffice
Hi, It's especially the last one in the list but they could get a new url soon, so stay tuned. Best, Charles. Le 28 janv. 2011, 7:08 AM, "Alexander Thurgood" a écrit : Le 28/01/11 04:21, David Nelson a écrit : Hi all, Well here are a few : http://libreofficeforum.org/ http://www.oooforum.org/ http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ and those are just the ones in English. Alex -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.orgList archive: http://listar... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/website/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
