Re: [Wesnoth-dev] New music.
Joseph Toscano [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Thanks for the list. I'd love to tackle some of these. I'll have something ready ASAP. Wonderful! Thanks. -- a href=http://www.catb.org/~esr/;Eric S. Raymond/a ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Adding new campaigns to mainline, some guidelines
jeremy rosen schrieb: well, apparently the debate part has more or less finished here... the next thing to do would be to synththise that post, and put it either in developer discussion for further comment/looking for a SP maintainer or directly in the campaign forum, locked, as a policy statement... I don't have time to do that, so I would be very gratefull if someone did that for me... Okay, if anyone did gather everything that was said about it so far it would be very nice. Then I would post that policy change and ask for extra campaign maintainers in a news. So in short: Does anyone volunteer to write that new adding campaigns to mainline polcy? Somehow on the same topic: Now that Northern Rebirth was included in mainline, which other campaigns should we consider for addition? Here a short list of campaigns that come to my mind: * Sceptre of Fire: It has a different history but it also does feature dwarves, we don't have a real dwarves campaign yet and I think it works rather nicely. The problem with the different history might be solved via adding something in the beginning stating that this is how the legend is told among the dwarves and that humans do see it a little different... * Saving Elensefar: Never played it myself but I heard it would be rather nice. Though I assume that difficulty level is (like in all of Turins campaigns) rather high... * Son of the Black Eye: Taurus did take over maintaining SotBE, he now is maintaining a mainline campaign and playing the orcs can be really different than the normal humans/elves stuff. The main questions: Is it already complete and does not stop aprupt? Does it work nicely? * Delfadors Memories: rather nice campaign but incomplete. Any chance to get it continued? Which ones did I miss in my (very short) list that should/could be added? Feel free to post campaigns you would like to see in. @ Turin: What do you think of adding SoF and SE to mainline? Cheers, Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Adding new campaigns to mainline, some guidelines
Nils Kneuper schrieb: Somehow on the same topic: Now that Northern Rebirth was included in mainline, which other campaigns should we consider for addition? I am going to propose Descend into Darkness, my personal favorite campaign. It's rather finished (but not yet perfect enough to be boring to maintain) and has an interesting story and gameplay. Possible problems are that it is not converted to 1.3 yet and its art needs improvement. Also its author seems to consider his work as finished and does no longer actively maintain it. You can see the forum thread http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13776 for more details. Just though this campaign is worth to be mentioned. Regards, Thomas Baumhauer aka Baufo ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Adding new campaigns to mainline, some guidelines
I think adding SoF to mainline is a good idea. SE might be a good addition as well, but I'm not going to push for it to be added. SE would need a lot of maintenance to be brought up to snuff, I think, but SoF is pretty much set as-is. With regards to the SoF-HttT conflict, I might indeed need to add something to SoF saying this is how the dwarves tell it, but I wouldn't mind doing that - it would take five minutes. Also, the campaign Legend of Wesmere does a good job of explaining why SoF tells a different story than HttT with them both remaining factual accounts, if we want to go that way. It would require very minor changes to some HttT dialogue, which I could do as well. (It would basically be changing the basic idea of 'Garard I ordered the sceptre of fire to be forged and then, when it was never delivered, his son made finding it the key to being Heir to the Throne' to 'the sceptre was forged long ago, and then because Garard II was unsure about who his heir should be he made the Edict of the Sceptre'. I personally think it makes more sense the second way regardless of whether the campaign SoF exists or not.) ~Turin -- Joseph Simmons Known to some as Túrin Turambar, master of doom, by doom mastered www.wesnoth.org ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Adding new campaigns to mainline, some guidelines
Joseph Simmons schrieb: I think adding SoF to mainline is a good idea. SE might be a good addition as well, but I'm not going to push for it to be added. SE would need a lot of maintenance to be brought up to snuff, I think, but SoF is pretty much set as-is. With regards to the SoF-HttT conflict, I might indeed need to add something to SoF saying this is how the dwarves tell it, but I wouldn't mind doing that - it would take five minutes. Also, the campaign Legend of Wesmere does a good job of explaining why SoF tells a different story than HttT with them both remaining factual accounts, if we want to go that way. It would require very minor changes to some HttT dialogue, which I could do as well. (It would basically be changing the basic idea of 'Garard I ordered the sceptre of fire to be forged and then, when it was never delivered, his son made finding it the key to being Heir to the Throne' to 'the sceptre was forged long ago, and then because Garard II was unsure about who his heir should be he made the Edict of the Sceptre'. I personally think it makes more sense the second way regardless of whether the campaign SoF exists or not.) ~Turin Some little changes like this seem reasonable to me. Currently httt is in general unmaintained so you are free to make these changes. IMO it is okay if you want to go on and include SoF in mainline. If you do the data/campaigns/ stuff, I will do the po stuff (should be easy with /utils/wescamp-import). Cheers, Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Adding new campaigns to mainline, some guidelines
Thomas schrieb: I am going to propose Descend into Darkness, my personal favorite campaign. It's rather finished (but not yet perfect enough to be boring to maintain) and has an interesting story and gameplay. Possible problems are that it is not converted to 1.3 yet and its art needs improvement. Also its author seems to consider his work as finished and does no longer actively maintain it. You can see the forum thread http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13776 for more details. Just though this campaign is worth to be mentioned. Regards, Thomas Baumhauer aka Baufo Would you volunteer to help getting it in and finish it? That it is not 1.3.2 compatible ain't no problem thanks to upconvert. That neat tool written by esr *should* be able to handle about 95% of the conversion. The only problems I am aware of occur with userdefined terrains. The more important part is: how bad is the current art really? If placeholder graphics are used for storyart and portraits: I would vote for removing them. For units: that is a problem... Before adding the campaign you have to make sure that textdomains and stuff are set for translations. Torangan might be able to provide you with some help in this area though in general that is a rather easy job. Some infos about this stuff: http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp In general I do welcome stuff that is being added to mainline. If we think it is not appropriate we can still remove it before preparing for a stable release. Cheers, Nils Kneuper aka Ivanovic ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Adding new campaigns to mainline, some guidelines
Now that Northern Rebirth was included in mainline, which other campaigns should we consider for addition? Campaigns I'd like to see in mainline, in mainline-quality: Son of the Black Eye Scepter of Fire Descent Into Darkness I haven't tried SotBE in a long time, but I think it's the one that would require the most work of the three. Unless it's currently a lot better than it was sometime in the past (six months ago? I don't really remember when I last tried it), then IMO some serious further work would need to go into it for it to become mainline-worthy (I mean some real revisions, not just fixing a lot of individual little things). I'll try to check it out again sometime soon so I can actually say something definite about what I think of it. Scepter of Fire looks like the easiest one to get into mainline. Some polishing here and there and I suppose it could be brought up to mainline-quality rather quickly. Since I haven't played that one through to the end either, I can't give much of an opinion on it. I liked DiD quite a lot when I played it, and I think it has potential to be a really nice shortish campaign when worked on a little bit more. I might have interest in helping with this. I'm not too keen on campaigns like Saving Elensefar (haven't tried it in ages): it's a bit too different and I don't think one can make all the things that are different work and look well and good enough to consider it mainline-quality. It's probably a fun campaign (at least it was when I played it a bit, which must have been a year ago or something like that), but IMO a prime example of something that should remain UMC. *** On a slightly unrelated note, I'd like to propose that mainline campaign candidates be committed into SVN as early as possible (could be done even before there is a consensus on whether we want it in mainline or not), into a separate branch. This way it's a lot easier for interested devs to work on it, and having the campaign in it's own branch doesn't interfere with anything else. -- Lari Nieminen, a.k.a zookeeper [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Adding new campaigns to mainline, some guidelines
Nils Kneuper [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Now that Northern Rebirth was included in mainline, which other campaigns should we consider for addition? Here a short list of campaigns that come to my mind: * Sceptre of Fire: It has a different history but it also does feature dwarves, we don't have a real dwarves campaign yet and I think it works rather nicely. The problem with the different history might be solved via adding something in the beginning stating that this is how the legend is told among the dwarves and that humans do see it a little different... I'm against this for continuity reasons. I think having a consistent overall history of the world is a good thing, and that consistency should be preserved. * Saving Elensefar: Never played it myself but I heard it would be rather nice. Though I assume that difficulty level is (like in all of Turins campaigns) rather high... Haven't played it. Turin does good work, so this one would be high on my list of candidates to look at. In fact I would be a little surprised if it turned out not to be mainline-worthy. * Son of the Black Eye: Taurus did take over maintaining SotBE, he now is maintaining a mainline campaign and playing the orcs can be really different than the normal humans/elves stuff. The main questions: Is it already complete and does not stop aprupt? Does it work nicely? I haven't yet played this. I think it's an excellent candidate, though, because Taurus does good work and I'm certain he'll be available to tune it up for mainline. * Delfadors Memories: rather nice campaign but incomplete. Any chance to get it continued? Agreed -- I'd love to see this finished and mainlined. Which ones did I miss in my (very short) list that should/could be added? Feel free to post campaigns you would like to see in. I like Legend of Wesmere. That would be my next choice. As far as minor UMC goes, I like the concept of Town vs. Gown. -- a href=http://www.catb.org/~esr/;Eric S. Raymond/a ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Adding new campaigns to mainline, some guidelines
Joseph Simmons [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So, in conclusion: * The only differences are that it is not Garard I, in 417 YW, who originally commissions the Sceptre, but rather Haldric II, in 25 YW, who does so, and that its completion only takes 15 years, not 25. * These are both minor plot points in HttT, and can be easily changed. * However, they are vital to the plot of SoF, and several UMCs made after I wrote SoF use the SoF version of history. * They also make more sense anyway, IMHO. * I thus see no reason not to make this change. OK, you've convinced me. I'll support it, and taking SoF mainline. I want to maintain a consistent history, but I have no problem with a bit of retroactive continuity when the resulting storyline makes more sense. I say go ahead and hack the HttT storyline text and the history Wiki, and hereby dub this the Great Retconning (for those of you who remember the Great Renaming). I strongly doubt you'll get any opposition from the other devs. The main problems with SE, as I see it, are that it tries to do things with WML that don't really work (partly because I wrote it when WML was much less powerful than it is now), and that its gameplay is too different from the standard Wesnoth gameplay (though what with UtBS being official now, that might not be such a big issue). I don't think it is. Other devs may differ, but I think differences on the order of those in UtBS add flavor and variety to BfW. I think I would prefer to see an even wider range of variations, factions, and settings. -- a href=http://www.catb.org/~esr/;Eric S. Raymond/a ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Adding new campaigns to mainline, some guidelines
On May 1, 2007, at 9:13 PM, Eric S. Raymond wrote: Joseph Simmons [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So, in conclusion: * The only differences are that it is not Garard I, in 417 YW, who originally commissions the Sceptre, but rather Haldric II, in 25 YW, who does so, and that its completion only takes 15 years, not 25. * These are both minor plot points in HttT, and can be easily changed. * However, they are vital to the plot of SoF, and several UMCs made after I wrote SoF use the SoF version of history. * They also make more sense anyway, IMHO. * I thus see no reason not to make this change. OK, you've convinced me. I'll support it, and taking SoF mainline. I want to maintain a consistent history, but I have no problem with a bit of retroactive continuity when the resulting storyline makes more sense. I say go ahead and hack the HttT storyline text and the history Wiki, and hereby dub this the Great Retconning (for those of you who remember the Great Renaming). I strongly doubt you'll get any opposition from the other devs. Quite right - a thing worth keeping in mind is that much of the foundation of wesnoth's backstory is something dave pulled out of thin air to act as a setting for the game he was making; he was chiefly concerned with making a playable and fun game, not with making a consistent backstory or fantasy world. For an example, early in our development, races were literally added into the game at whim, simply because someone had made the imagery for them. No planning, no justification, just whoops, hey we have drakes now. (This was actually true for the saurians and undead as well.) The dialogue in early versions, likewise, was atrocious; out of respect, I won't give any examples - people can dredge svn if they really care to see. My point is that we're not curating tolkien's work here, and should not act as such. Our respect for a canon element of the story should only be proportional to its quality, because the original creators of it really didn't intend for it to be a masterpiece. ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
Re: [Wesnoth-dev] Adding new campaigns to mainline, some guidelines
I would have trusted Turin's judgement on the matter, but since he explained it, i agree the SoF version seems to make more sense. By all means, let HttT be changed to match SoF. The a broader continuity is more valuable than an unchanging HttT. As for new campaigns, let's just make sure that any that are added have a currently active maintainer. - j.w. bjerk / eleazar ___ Wesnoth-dev mailing list Wesnoth-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-dev
