Re: [whatwg] Lists, ins/del, and a
Andrew Fedoniouk wrote: Lets forget about ins or del as anyway this is better ol li class=new inversion=Some list item/li li class=removed inversion=Another list item/li /ol I don't know what the inversion attribute is supposed to mean, but the class attribute is semantically meaningless. However, we could introduce the edit and datetime attributes from the XHTML 2.0 draft's Edit Attributes Module [1]. Then we could just define that ins and del are semantically equivalent to div edit=inserted and div edit=deleted (or span, when used as inline elements), respectively. That way, we could use this: ul li edit=insertedSome list item/li li edit=deletedAnother list item/li li edit=changedModified list item/li li edit=movedMoved list item/li /ul [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-edit.html -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/
Re: [whatwg] Lists, ins/del, and a
Michel Fortin wrote: Le 29 août 2006 à 23:00, Lachlan Hunt a écrit : Michel Fortin wrote: How can we markup removed or inserted list items? Here's a general idea: ul insliSome list item/li/ins delliAnother list item/li/del /ul This can be solved by putting the ins and del elements as the only child nodes of the li elements instead. ul liinsSome list item/ins/li lidelAnother list item/del/li /ul The meaning of your markup is that you inserted and deleted some text within each list item, not that you added or deleted a list item like in mine. Semantically there is a difference, subtle maybe but still there. Another related thought we could discuss for revision control using ins and del is that they could do with a couple of attributes, a datetime and an author: pOn a dull and dreary afternoon ins datetime=2006-27-08 12:34:56 author=Ric HardacreI added this text while/ins the rain poured down/p Ric Hardacre http://www.cyclomedia.co.uk/
Re: [whatwg] Lists, ins/del, and a
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 05:51:39 +0200, Michel Fortin
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The meaning of your markup is that you inserted and deleted some text
within each list item, not that you added or deleted a list item like in
mine. Semantically there is a difference, subtle maybe but still there.
That depends on the definition.
Also, while your markup gives the same visual rendering while using the
default browser stylesheet (which underlines ins and overstrikes
del), the result will be completely different if you want to hide the
inserted or deleted parts. Using this CSS rule:
del { display: none }
you'll see a one-item list for my markup, while for your markup you'll
see a second, empty list item.
That could be seen as a limitation of the styling language. It has been
repeated many times on this list that styling should not be taken into
account when designing markup.
(As for my myself, I only partially agree with that sentiment.)
--
Anne van Kesteren
http://annevankesteren.nl/
http://www.opera.com/
Re: [whatwg] Lists, ins/del, and a
Ric Hardacre wrote: Another related thought we could discuss for revision control using ins and del is that they could do with a couple of attributes, a datetime http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#adef-datetime and an author: pOn a dull and dreary afternoon ins datetime=2006-27-08 12:34:56 author=Ric HardacreI added this text while/ins the rain poured down/p Maybe. What's the use case and what benefit does it provide? Would a name be a suitable value, or would a URI pointing to more info about the author be better (e.g. linking to the author's profile or homepage). Would the use cases be better handled using CVS or SVN on the back end? Would any user need to know which author edited something? I could be wrong, but I believe author information is recorded by office applications (e.g. Word, OpenOffice) when revision control is enabled; but, again, would it be useful to have it saved in HTML? -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/
Re: [whatwg] Lists, ins/del, and a
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:16:54 +0200, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know what the inversion attribute is supposed to mean, but the class attribute is semantically meaningless. However, we could introduce the edit and datetime attributes from the XHTML 2.0 draft's Edit Attributes Module [1]. I've personally proposed that as well, at least once. The problem, similar to introducing href= everywhere is that it's not backwards compatible. However, as opposed to a href=, del and ins are not often used and don't provide important functionality (the interaction most users have with them is their visual appearance). [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-edit.html -- Anne van Kesteren http://annevankesteren.nl/ http://www.opera.com/
Re: [whatwg] Lists, ins/del, and a
Anne van Kesteren wrote:
del { display: none }
you'll see a one-item list for my markup, while for your markup you'll
see a second, empty list item.
That could be seen as a limitation of the styling language. It has been
repeated many times on this list that styling should not be taken into
account when designing markup.
But you do have to design the markup language in a way that satisfies
the use cases. In this case, it clearly doesn't satisfy at least one of
them.
The edit attribute would meet this one, as you could use:
li[edit=deleted] { display: none; }
It's even somewhat backwards compatible with current browsers.
--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/
Re: [whatwg] Lists, ins/del, and a
Le 30 août 2006 à 2:49, dolphinling a écrit : What's more, it's not backwards compatible. I would *love* it if it were (especially because then fieldset could also go there, and repetition template attributes wouldn't have to apply to all elements), but current UAs turn ulinslitext/li/ins/ul into ins/insullitext/li/ul. Safari, Mozilla and Opera all seems to build the DOM tree as it should, wherever I try ins, del, or a, or even fieldset. Are you talking solely about Internet Explorer for Windows (which I haven't tested) ? While it works fine with ul I note that it doesn't within table, showing the same behaviour as in your ul example above. Michel Fortin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.michelf.com/
Re: [whatwg] Lists, ins/del, and a
- Original Message -
From: Anne van Kesteren [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WHATWG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 1:35 AM
Subject: Re: [whatwg] Lists, ins/del, and a
| On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:16:54 +0200, Lachlan Hunt
| [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
| I don't know what the inversion attribute is supposed to mean, but the
| class attribute is semantically meaningless. However, we could
| introduce the edit and datetime attributes from the XHTML 2.0 draft's
| Edit Attributes Module [1].
|
| I've personally proposed that as well, at least once. The problem, similar
| to introducing href= everywhere is that it's not backwards compatible.
| However, as opposed to a href=, del and ins are not often used and
| don't provide important functionality (the interaction most users have
| with them is their visual appearance).
|
Anne, seems like I don't understand what backward compatible [1]
means in this context. Could you explain what you mean here?
Outdated UA will not interpret li href=... but will do a href=...
Up-to-date UA will understand both.
Looks as backward compatible solution to me.
Andrew Fedoniouk.
http://terrainformatica.com
OT little bit:
in h-smile engine (htmlayout,etc) hyperlink implemented as a behavior:hyperlink
Intrinsically [2] it applied to a[href] elements only but can be assigned
to any DOM element as *[href] { behavior:hyperlink; } using CSS.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward_compatibility
[2] http://www.terrainformatica.com/htmlayout/master_ss_css.php
|
| [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-edit.html
|
|
|
| --
| Anne van Kesteren
| http://annevankesteren.nl/
| http://www.opera.com/
|
|
Re: [whatwg] Lists, ins/del, and a
Lachlan Hunt wrote: we could introduce the edit and datetime attributes from the XHTML 2.0 draft's Edit Attributes Module [1]. I just realised that the datetime attribute from the Edit module would clash with the proposed datetime attribute of the t element [1]. e.g. What would the datetime attribute mean in this? t edit=inserted datetime=2006-08-3131 Aug 2006/t It could either mean that the markup was inserted on 2006-08-31 or that the content is a date equivalent to 2006-08-31. A possible solution could be to keep edit and datetime attributes for editing and rename the datetime attribute for the t element to something else (e.g. dt) e.g. t dt=2006-08-3131 Aug 2006/t t dt=2006-08-31 edit=inserted datetime=2006-09-01T12:30Z31 Aug 2006/t The problem with that is that authors may get confused and use datetime instead of dt, or vice versa. Alternatively, we could use the title attribute instead. e.g. t title=2006-08-3131 Aug 2006/t That has the advantage of actually making the ISO date accessible to users using the existing tooltip mechansim and is similar to the current abuse of the abbr element for the datetime microformat [2]. [1] http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-t [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/
Re: [whatwg] Lists, ins/del, and a
Michel Fortin wrote: (Note that everything applying to normal lists in this message could also apply to definition lists and tables.) The ongoing thread about a global href attribute versus a block-level a element made me think of a similar situation concerning ins and del. How can we markup removed or inserted list items? Here's a general idea: ul insliSome list item/li/ins delliAnother list item/li/del /ul But this is invalid. According to the spec the content model for ul is zero or more li elements. As a more basic question, how does anyone actually use the ins/del elements? In their current form they are too basic to do worthwhile revision control and specifying a generic solution that will meet all needs seems challenging. I also know they can't be that widely used since Hixie's survey [1] says: Some of the more obscure cases of non-standard tags we found include a series of tags with the st1: prefix, such as st1:city, and st1:placetype, st1:country-region, st1:state, which we are told come from Microsoft Office (smarttags). Those four tags are used more often than the ins and del elements from HTML4 [2] Clearly there are some situations in which basic revision control would be useful but, even then, I'm not sure the revision semantics have value beyond the boundary of the particular environment in which the document is being edited - by this I mean that an aural UA, for example, could not easily make use of an ins element in an arbitrary document, nor could the googlebot (I suppose one could argue more strongly for the del element). On the other hand an editing application, with support for revision control could easily invent some solution using e.g. a combination of custom classes. This will have the advantage that the application can represent as much or as little information as it requires (allowing for e.g. multi-level revision histories and extra metadata about the change) and the disadvantage only that the semantics are not recognised outside the application. [1] http://code.google.com/webstats/index.html [2] http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/editors.html -- Eternity's a terrible thought. I mean, where's it all going to end? -- Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
Re: [whatwg] Lists, ins/del, and a
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 01:09:26 +0700, Michel Fortin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ul insliSome list item/li/ins delliAnother list item/li/del /ul Changing this to allow the above markup has consequences on the DOM: for instance we could no longer iterate on the content of a list element and expect to catch all of its list items. Probably, lists should implement a special DOM interface which allows to iterate over the list items. Tables have such an interface. -- Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com
Re: [whatwg] Lists, ins/del, and a
Michel Fortin wrote: How can we markup removed or inserted list items? Here's a general idea: ul insliSome list item/li/ins delliAnother list item/li/del /ul This can be solved by putting the ins and del elements as the only child nodes of the li elements instead. ul liinsSome list item/ins/li lidelAnother list item/del/li /ul -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/
Re: [whatwg] Lists, ins/del, and a
- Original Message - From: Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michel Fortin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: whatwg List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:00 PM Subject: Re: [whatwg] Lists, ins/del, and a Michel Fortin wrote: How can we markup removed or inserted list items? Here's a general idea: ul insliSome list item/li/ins delliAnother list item/li/del /ul This can be solved by putting the ins and del elements as the only child nodes of the li elements instead. ul liinsSome list item/ins/li lidelAnother list item/del/li /ul Lets forget about ins or del as anyway this is better ol li class=new inversion=Some list item/li li class=removed inversion=Another list item/li /ol Andrew Fedoniouk. http://terrainformatica.com
Re: [whatwg] Lists, ins/del, and a
Le 29 août 2006 à 23:00, Lachlan Hunt a écrit :
Michel Fortin wrote:
How can we markup removed or inserted list items? Here's a general
idea:
ul
insliSome list item/li/ins
delliAnother list item/li/del
/ul
This can be solved by putting the ins and del elements as the only
child nodes of the li elements instead.
ul
liinsSome list item/ins/li
lidelAnother list item/del/li
/ul
The meaning of your markup is that you inserted and deleted some text
within each list item, not that you added or deleted a list item like
in mine. Semantically there is a difference, subtle maybe but still
there.
Also, while your markup gives the same visual rendering while using
the default browser stylesheet (which underlines ins and
overstrikes del), the result will be completely different if you
want to hide the inserted or deleted parts. Using this CSS rule:
del { display: none }
you'll see a one-item list for my markup, while for your markup
you'll see a second, empty list item.
Michel Fortin
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.michelf.com/
