Re: [whatwg] Definition list and tables: what's the difference ?
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:23:53 -0500, Matthew Raymond wrote: This whole thread is as silly as saying that we should replace p with div because div can express the same structure. Structure is important, but it's only half of the equation. So you recognize the thread it NOT silly ;-) Let me explain: A paragraph is supposed to encompass an idea, while a div really is a block-level span. The first has semantics, the second has none, so a p shall not be replace by a div -- contrary to a definition list, where the relationship is the same -- not even counting header, colgroup... Accessorily, I believe there is a need for an equivalent of dd for dfn. dfn marks a term to define, but what is the marker for its definition? -- /david_latapie U+0F00 http://blog.empyree.org/en (English) http://blog.empyree.org/fr (Français) http://blog.empyree.org/sl (Slovensko)
Re: [whatwg] Definition list and tables: what's the difference ?
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:52:23 +0100, Alexey Feldgendler wrote: On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:40:13 +0100, David Latapie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My humble point: table can do everything dl can, whilst the reverse is not true. He who can do more can do less. table canot do this: dl dtcomputer/dt ddAn electronic device for information processing./dd dtdriver/dt ddA computer program taking care of direct communication with a peripherial device./dd ddA person who drives a vehicle./dd /dl How would you represent this in a table without abusing the very idea of columns? table captionMini-glossary of computing/caption thead tr thDefinition/th th colspan=2Term/th /tr /thead tbody tr thdfnComputer/dfn/th tdAn electronic device for information processing./td td / /tr tr thdfnDriver/dfn/th tdA computer program taking care of direct communication with a peripherial device./td tdA person who drives a vehicle./td /tr /tbody /table table captionMini-glossary of computing/caption thead tr thDefinition/th th colspan=2Term/th /tr /thead tbody tr thdfnComputer/dfn/th td colspan=2An electronic device for information processing./td /tr tr thdfnDriver/dfn/th tdA computer program taking care of direct communication with a peripherial device./td tdA person who drives a vehicle./td /tr /tbody /table Now, is it abusing of columns, I really don't know. If a column is a presentation definition, maybe. If it just a container for a key or a value, I don't think so. After all, CSS encompasses everything in boxes, including characters. -- /david_latapie U+0F00 http://blog.empyree.org/en (English) http://blog.empyree.org/fr (Français) http://blog.empyree.org/sl (Slovensko)
Re: [whatwg] Definition list and tables: what's the difference ?
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 06:13:25 +0100, David Latapie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Accessorily, I believe there is a need for an equivalent of dd for dfn. dfn marks a term to define, but what is the marker for its definition? The paragraph, description list group, or section that contains the dfn element contains the definition for the term given by the contents of the dfn element. -- http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-dfn -- David Håsäther
Re: [whatwg] Definition list and tables: what's the difference ?
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:45:14 -0500, Michel Fortin wrote: What about nested definition lists like all those found in the HTML5 spec? Would you replace them by nested tables or a bizarre organisation of cells using rowspan and colspan? And would it still be intelligible? Yes and Yes. Content and subcontent, with relations. CSS shall take care of readability quite easily (no border, for instance) The difference between a table and a definition list is more akin the difference between a table and a paragraph in my view. The table is mostly about data, the definition list is mostly about text. There are many cases where both could be used as effectively, but there are many others where one makes much more sense than the other. I don't think one can oppose data and text (no problem for numbers and text). In the examples you provided, text is data. -- /david_latapie U+0F00 http://blog.empyree.org/en (English) http://blog.empyree.org/fr (Français) http://blog.empyree.org/sl (Slovensko)
Re: [whatwg] Definition list and tables: what's the difference ?
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 01:50:29 +0100, Simon Pieters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, in this example you're abusing rows, not columns. Rowspan and colspan allow you to make one cell be part of several rows or columns, which means that (by usnig only one dimention, and without using headers=) a data cell can be associated with multiple header cells, or if it is a header cell, multiple cells can be associated with it. It's what they were designed to do. But you can't make *each* of A, B, and C associated with *each* of X, Y -- that's what the example below does. What about this? dl dtA/dtdtB/dtdtC/dt ddX/Y/dd /dl -- Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com
Re: [whatwg] Definition list and tables: what's the difference ?
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 12:31:36 +0100, Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But you can't make *each* of A, B, and C associated with *each* of X, Y -- that's what the example below does. What about this? dl dtA/dtdtB/dtdtC/dt ddX/Y/dd /dl Sure you can: table trthAthBthC trtd colspan=3X trtd colspan=3Y /table I'm not saying that a table *should* be used in this case, just that the same relationship can be expressed. -- Simon Pieters
Re: [whatwg] Definition list and tables: what's the difference ?
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 00:24:33 +0100, David Latapie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The title may seem silly: tables are completely different from definition lists; the only similarity is that they are both block elements. Well, on the presentational level, I could not agree more. But when you come to think to the semantics, I am not so sure. What follows is pure speculation from me -- not a request for any change, just some thoughts I would like your opinion on. Because I truly wonder if dl and table are different enough. Maybe this is just theoretical (practicability/compatibility may render the whole idea useless), but I would still like your opinion, especially considering the amount of talented people on this list. The fundamental difference between tables and definition lists is that a table is a two-dimensional mapping of a pair of axes to one value, and a definition list is a uni-dimensional mapping of a term to one or more definitions. While there are some cases when either a table or a definition list can be used at author's choice, generally their use cases are different. The most notable case when a table is inappropriate to replace a definition list is when a definition list contains multiple definitions for each term or group of terms. While multiple definitions can be either stuffed into one table cell or laid out in a row, both solutions seem like a workaround. -- Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com
Re: [whatwg] Definition list and tables: what's the difference ?
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:40:13 +0100, David Latapie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My humble point: table can do everything dl can, whilst the reverse is not true. He who can do more can do less. table canot do this: dl dtcomputer/dt ddAn electronic device for information processing./dd dtdriver/dt ddA computer program taking care of direct communication with a peripherial device./dd ddA person who drives a vehicle./dd /dl How would you represent this in a table without abusing the very idea of columns? -- Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com
Re: [whatwg] Definition list and tables: what's the difference ?
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:52:23 +0100, Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:40:13 +0100, David Latapie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My humble point: table can do everything dl can, whilst the reverse is not true. He who can do more can do less. table canot do this: dl dtcomputer/dt ddAn electronic device for information processing./dd dtdriver/dt ddA computer program taking care of direct communication with a peripherial device./dd ddA person who drives a vehicle./dd /dl Note that as of HTML5 you want to use dfn in the dt when you're defining terms. How would you represent this in a table without abusing the very idea of columns? Don't know what you mean with abusing columns, but: table trthcomputertdAn electronic device for information processing. trth rowspan=2drivertdA computer program taking care of direct communication with a peripherial trtdA person who drives a vehicle. /table (Again use dfn if you're defining terms.) I agree with David that dl is like a simple table. Sometimes dl is more convenient to use (both for the author and the reader). -- Simon Pieters
Re: [whatwg] Definition list and tables: what's the difference ?
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:17:57 +0100, Simon Pieters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How would you represent this in a table without abusing the very idea of columns? Don't know what you mean with abusing columns, but: OK, in this example you're abusing rows, not columns. table trthcomputertdAn electronic device for information processing. trth rowspan=2drivertdA computer program taking care of direct communication with a peripherial trtdA person who drives a vehicle. /table What about this? dl dtA/dtdtB/dtdtC/dt ddX/Y/dd /dl -- Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com
Re: [whatwg] Definition list and tables: what's the difference ?
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 01:30:27 +0100, Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:17:57 +0100, Simon Pieters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How would you represent this in a table without abusing the very idea of columns? Don't know what you mean with abusing columns, but: OK, in this example you're abusing rows, not columns. Rowspan and colspan allow you to make one cell be part of several rows or columns, which means that (by usnig only one dimention, and without using headers=) a data cell can be associated with multiple header cells, or if it is a header cell, multiple cells can be associated with it. It's what they were designed to do. What about this? dl dtA/dtdtB/dtdtC/dt ddX/Y/dd /dl I don't see what you're trying to get across. As stated before every stucture dl can do table can do as well. Could you elaborate on what you think is being abused and why? -- Simon Pieters
