Re: [Wikidata] Elevation

2016-09-28 Thread Daniel Kinzler 
Am 28.09.2016 um 14:13 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
> Da es um grundlegende Modellierungsfragen geht - wer kann hier helfen?

"Die Community"...

> Ich brauche ein System, um in WD geografische Höhen zu modellieren.
> 
> Eine geografische Höhenangabe besteht aus:
> 1. Zahl (127,53)
> 2. Einheit (Meter, feet)
> 3. Höhenreferenzebene (NN, NHN, LAT, MSL, MHWS, ...)
> 
> Wenn eine der drei Angaben fehlt, ist die Aussage unbrauchbar.

Die Referenzebene kann wie gersagt als Qualifier angegeben werden. Es wäre
sinnvoll, die Property "Elevation over sea level" entsprechend umzudefinieren
oder zu ersetzen. Eine andere Lösung fällt mir nicht ein. Es sei denn, es geht
um "Lichte Höhe", dann kannst du P2793 benutzen. Du brauchst aber immernoch eine
Property für "Reference level". Ich glaube, die gibt es noch nicht.

> Sinnvoll wäre zusatzlich eine Angabe zu:
> 4. Genauigkeit
> 
> Verstehe ich Dich richtig?
> Du schlägst vor, die Genauigkeit hinter die Zahl zu schreiben?
> und beides in einen String zusammenzuführen?
> also 1., 2. und 4. in ein Feld zu packen?
> 
> Beispiel: 123,53±0,005m

Ja, genau so. Oder so ähnlich - bei der Eingabe muss die Einheit momentan noch
separat ausgewählt werden.

> Dann müsste man jede Zahl erst auseinanderdröseln
> um sie in einer Tabelle darstellen und numerisch sortieren zu können?

Nein, das ist ja kein Text-Feld. Wert, Genauigkeit, und Einheit werden separate
gespeichert, dafür haben wir "data types." Details findest du hier:
 und hier
.


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Re: [Wikidata] Elevation

2016-09-28 Thread Daniel Kinzler 
Am 27.09.2016 um 23:14 schrieb Info WorldUniversity:
> Hi Daniel, Markus and Wikidatans, 
> 
> Thanks for your interesting "modeling elevation with Wikidata" conversation. 
> 
> Daniel, in a related vein and conceptually, how would you model elevation 
> change
> over time (e.g. in a Google Street View/Maps/Earth with TIME SLIDER,
> conceptually, for example) with Wikidata, building on the example you've 
> already
> shared? 

You would use the "point in time" qualifier. We use this a lot with population
data, see for instance .

> Would there be a wikidata Q-item for all 46 sub levels, for example?

That's a question of desirable modelling granularity. I would suppose that for
troy, we would have one item per sub-level, since it's such a famous site. But
we would probably not have every sub-level of every archeological excavation.
This is always a question of balance, and always a matter of debate.

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Re: [Wikidata] Elevation

2016-09-27 Thread Info WorldUniversity 
Hi Daniel, Markus and Wikidatans,

Thanks for your interesting "modeling elevation with Wikidata"
conversation.

Daniel, in a related vein and conceptually, how would you model elevation
change over time (e.g. in a Google Street View/Maps/Earth with TIME SLIDER,
conceptually, for example) with Wikidata, building on the example you've
already shared?

For example if one wanted to use Wikidata to model the 9 levels or 46
sublevels of Troy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy) and when they were
excavated and how (so a time horizon with a place horizon), how would one
do so?

(On behalf of CC WUaS I'd like to explore facilitating doing this
eventually in a realistic virtual earth, something like Google Street
View/Maps/Earth with time slider with OPEN SIMULATOR, conceptually, and as
a World Univ & Sch "classroom" and as a way, for example, for
archaeologists and related scientists to add each of their own videos and
photographic data, say, from all of their digs in 1910 of level X and
contrast this with each of all of their own videos from level Y in 1958 (if
digs were happening in these years) -
https://radalma.wikispaces.com/file/view/troy-the-nine-periods-of-troy-cross-section-map.jpg/337471010/troy-the-nine-periods-of-troy-cross-section-map.jpg
(e.g. https://radalma.wikispaces.com/Timeline+of+Troy) - with great STEM
precision of time and place elevation, - and also in ANY language, so
involving Wiktionary and translation?)

Would there be a wikidata Q-item for all 46 sub levels, for example?

Thank you.

Bests, Scott







On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 1:21 PM, Markus Bärlocher <
markus.baerloc...@lau-net.de> wrote:

> Hi Daniel,
>
> > So you want to e.g. give the height of a bridge above the "mean high
> water
> > spring" level of the river it crosses?
>
> Yes.
>
> > use a qualifier. The unit would be meter
>
> Yes.
>
> > The "elevation" property we have (P2044) is defined to refer to NN
>
> It is not a good idea, to define 'elevation'
> like it is "defined" in P2044:
> there are hundreds of reference-levels (not only NN)...
>
> NN was used from 1879 to 1992 in Germany.
>
> Now in Germany we use NHN !
>
> In other countries there are different reference levels
> changing in different epoches ...
>
> > you would need a more general "elevation" property,
> > and a "reference level" property to use as a qualifier.
>
> Yes, every elevation needs a reference level.
> (without a elevation measurement is not usable)
>
> > Then you could express something like "elevation: 28.3m;
>
> In WD there is a confusion between altitude and elevation?
> (may be in American and British English?
> or geographic and aviation and astronomy?)
>
> > reference-level: Q6803625".
>
> _reference-level_ could be:
> 'NN'
> 'NHN'
> 'LAT'
> 'MSL'
> 'MHWS'
> and a lot of others...
>
> But this is a combination of unit and reference-level:
> 'm ü.M.'
>
> We should not mix or confound this modellings...
>
> What will be the WD-way?
> (you should discuss this with a geodetic specialist...!)
>
> Additionally we need an expression for 'accuracy' and 'source':
> If the hight unit is 'meter' and the source value is in 'feet',
> the new value could have a lot more/less digits than the source,
> but no better/worse accuracy...
>
> Bests, Markus
>
>
> > Am 27.09.2016 um 20:26 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
> >> Hallo Daniel,
> >>
> >> nein, ich suche nicht einen WP-Artikel über MHWS,
> >> (diesen habe ich nur verlinkt als Erklärung)
> >>
> >> sondern eine Einheit/unit,
> >> um MHWS als Bezugshorizont für geografische Höhen zu beschreiben.
> >>
> >> MHWS wird verwendet, um Brückendurchfahrtshöhen über Wasser zu
> >> definieren, sowie für die geografische Höhe von Leuchtfeuern.
> >>
> >> Mit herzlichem Gruss,
> >> Markus
> >>
> >>
> >> Am 27.09.2016 um 19:28 schrieb Daniel Kinzler:
> >>> Am 27.09.2016 um 19:10 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
>  I look for this:
>  "Elevation in metres above 'mean high water spring' level."
> 
>  Which means the geographic hight above MHWS:
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_high_water_spring
> >>>
> >>> By clicking on "Wikidata Item" in the sidebar of that page, I get to
> >>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6803625 ("highest level that spring
> tides reach
> >>> on average over a period of time")
> >>>
> >>> Is that what you need?
>
>
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Re: [Wikidata] Elevation

2016-09-27 Thread Markus Bärlocher 
Hi Daniel,

> So you want to e.g. give the height of a bridge above the "mean high water
> spring" level of the river it crosses?

Yes.

> use a qualifier. The unit would be meter 

Yes.

> The "elevation" property we have (P2044) is defined to refer to NN

It is not a good idea, to define 'elevation'
like it is "defined" in P2044:
there are hundreds of reference-levels (not only NN)...

NN was used from 1879 to 1992 in Germany.

Now in Germany we use NHN !

In other countries there are different reference levels
changing in different epoches ...

> you would need a more general "elevation" property,
> and a "reference level" property to use as a qualifier.

Yes, every elevation needs a reference level.
(without a elevation measurement is not usable)

> Then you could express something like "elevation: 28.3m;

In WD there is a confusion between altitude and elevation?
(may be in American and British English?
or geographic and aviation and astronomy?)

> reference-level: Q6803625".

_reference-level_ could be:
'NN'
'NHN'
'LAT'
'MSL'
'MHWS'
and a lot of others...

But this is a combination of unit and reference-level:
'm ü.M.'

We should not mix or confound this modellings...

What will be the WD-way?
(you should discuss this with a geodetic specialist...!)

Additionally we need an expression for 'accuracy' and 'source':
If the hight unit is 'meter' and the source value is in 'feet',
the new value could have a lot more/less digits than the source,
but no better/worse accuracy...

Bests, Markus


> Am 27.09.2016 um 20:26 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
>> Hallo Daniel,
>>
>> nein, ich suche nicht einen WP-Artikel über MHWS,
>> (diesen habe ich nur verlinkt als Erklärung)
>>
>> sondern eine Einheit/unit,
>> um MHWS als Bezugshorizont für geografische Höhen zu beschreiben.
>>
>> MHWS wird verwendet, um Brückendurchfahrtshöhen über Wasser zu
>> definieren, sowie für die geografische Höhe von Leuchtfeuern.
>>
>> Mit herzlichem Gruss,
>> Markus
>>
>>
>> Am 27.09.2016 um 19:28 schrieb Daniel Kinzler:
>>> Am 27.09.2016 um 19:10 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
 I look for this:
 "Elevation in metres above 'mean high water spring' level."

 Which means the geographic hight above MHWS:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_high_water_spring
>>>
>>> By clicking on "Wikidata Item" in the sidebar of that page, I get to
>>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6803625 ("highest level that spring tides 
>>> reach
>>> on average over a period of time")
>>>
>>> Is that what you need?


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Re: [Wikidata] Elevation

2016-09-27 Thread Daniel Kinzler 
So you want to e.g. give the height of a bridge above the "mean high water
spring" level of the river it crosses?

You wouldn't use a unit for that, but a qualifier. The unit would be meter (or
feet or whatever).

The "elevation" property we have (P2044) is defined to refer to NN, so it's no
good for your purpose. To model what you want nicely, you would need a more
general "elevation" property, and a "reference level" property to use as a
qualifier. Then you could express something like "elevation: 28.3m;
reference-level: Q6803625".

I'm sure there are other options, but I see no good option that would be
possible with the properties I know.

Anyway, this is really a modelling question, and it can't really be solved with
units.

Am 27.09.2016 um 20:26 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
> Hallo Daniel,
> 
> nein, ich suche nicht einen WP-Artikel über MHWS,
> (diesen habe ich nur verlinkt als Erklärung)
> 
> sondern eine Einheit/unit,
> um MHWS als Bezugshorizont für geografische Höhen zu beschreiben.
> 
> MHWS wird verwendet, um Brückendurchfahrtshöhen über Wasser zu
> definieren, sowie für die geografische Höhe von Leuchtfeuern.
> 
> Mit herzlichem Gruss,
> Markus
> 
> 
> Am 27.09.2016 um 19:28 schrieb Daniel Kinzler:
>> Am 27.09.2016 um 19:10 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
>>> I look for this:
>>> "Elevation in metres above 'mean high water spring' level."
>>>
>>> Which means the geographic hight above MHWS:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_high_water_spring
>>
>> By clicking on "Wikidata Item" in the sidebar of that page, I get to
>> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6803625 ("highest level that spring tides 
>> reach
>> on average over a period of time")
>>
>> Is that what you need?
>>
> 
> 
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Re: [Wikidata] Elevation

2016-09-27 Thread Markus Bärlocher 
Hallo Daniel,

nein, ich suche nicht einen WP-Artikel über MHWS,
(diesen habe ich nur verlinkt als Erklärung)

sondern eine Einheit/unit,
um MHWS als Bezugshorizont für geografische Höhen zu beschreiben.

MHWS wird verwendet, um Brückendurchfahrtshöhen über Wasser zu
definieren, sowie für die geografische Höhe von Leuchtfeuern.

Mit herzlichem Gruss,
Markus


Am 27.09.2016 um 19:28 schrieb Daniel Kinzler:
> Am 27.09.2016 um 19:10 schrieb Markus Bärlocher:
>> I look for this:
>> "Elevation in metres above 'mean high water spring' level."
>>
>> Which means the geographic hight above MHWS:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_high_water_spring
> 
> By clicking on "Wikidata Item" in the sidebar of that page, I get to
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6803625 ("highest level that spring tides reach
> on average over a period of time")
> 
> Is that what you need?
> 


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