Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[K. Peachey]

On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Risker wrote:
> No, it was not intended that way, Steve. I do know that Brion has a very
> long job queue, and mailing lists haven't been his top priority for a long
> time. If the WMF powers that be consider it a priority, then it will move up
> in his list; if not, then you may be in for quite a wait.
>
> Risker
>
I believe mailing lists are handled by cary actually, but it doesn't
matter if anyone doesn't have time because you just log it in bugzilla
and when someone has time they will do it.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Risker]

No, it was not intended that way, Steve. I do know that Brion has a very
long job queue, and mailing lists haven't been his top priority for a long
time. If the WMF powers that be consider it a priority, then it will move up
in his list; if not, then you may be in for quite a wait.

Risker

2009/6/27 stevertigo 

> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Fred Bauder 
> wrote:
>
> > It is Wikimedia business. It would not be appropriate to involve a third
> > party.
> >
>
> Well, I took his meaning to be something like "go Google yourself," albeit
> put in very nice terms.
>
>
> > Yes, we might develop an ability to address petty disputes.
> >
>
> Your further insights on this matter would be most welcome!
>
> -Stevertigo
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[stevertigo]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Fred Bauder  wrote:

> It is Wikimedia business. It would not be appropriate to involve a third
> party.
>

Well, I took his meaning to be something like "go Google yourself," albeit
put in very nice terms.


> Yes, we might develop an ability to address petty disputes.
>

Your further insights on this matter would be most welcome!

-Stevertigo
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Fred Bauder]

> 2009/6/27 Fred Bauder :
>> It would allow subscribers to keep track of what is going on. It would
>> not try to engage in dispute resolution but discuss it and point to it.
>
> That's a different idea to the one I believe was originally proposed.
> I don't really object to your idea. I find it all too easy to stumble
> across drama as it is, so I'm not sure I see the benefit, but if
> people want to know where to go for the best drama, why not tell them?
>

I think one goal might be to provide a menu which empowered people to
both avoid drama and engage in substantive conversations of interest.

Fred



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Fred Bauder]

> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Thomas Dalton
> wrote:
>
>> 2009/6/27 Fred Bauder :
>> > It would allow subscribers to keep track of what is going on. It
>> would
>> > not try to engage in dispute resolution but discuss it and point to
>> it.
>>
>> That's a different idea to the one I believe was originally proposed.
>> I don't really object to your idea. I find it all too easy to stumble
>> across drama as it is, so I'm not sure I see the benefit, but if
>> people want to know where to go for the best drama, why not tell them?
>
>
> I don't see Fred's ideas or insights as being particularly in conflict
> with
> the idea I proposed.
> In fact, as I proposed it, I didn't get into any particular details. I
> simply assumed that if people
> agreed on the general scope, they could also agree on the scope such a
> list
> might have.
>
> Indeed, someone who might be interested in getting help for a particular
> edit conflict and might want to drop a note to the mailing list might
> like
> not getting their head bitten off by someone on this one.
>
> -Stevertigo
>

Yes, we might develop an ability to address petty disputes.

Fred



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Fred Bauder]

> 2009/6/27 stevertigo 
>
>> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Fred Bauder 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > > I would actually suggest two lists, if we could do this -
>> > >
>> > > One, an announce-only list which summarized ongoing dispute
>> resolution
>> > > (arbcom cases, RFCs, community discussions of note elsewhere) for
>> > > those who find following all the threads on-wiki daunting with real
>> > > life time constraints.
>> > >
>> > > Two, discussion.
>> > >
>> > > Perhaps one list, but a regular posting of the announcements, but I
>> > > think some people would be more interested in just announcements.
>> I
>> > > would participate in both, but I think that giving some people the
>> > > option to just get the announcements is more respectful of their
>> > > bandwidth...
>> >
>> > I think this is a good refinement of the idea.
>> >
>>
>> I personally don't understand the "announce" format or its usefulness,
>> George, but I have no objection.  I don't know now it would be
>> populated
>> either, as it would require DR to get its ducks in a row overall. Maybe
>> not
>> a bad thing, actually, but let's deal with the main discussion list
>> first
>> though.
>>
>> -Stevertigo
>> ___
>>
>
> Stevertigo, from experience I know it takes some time to set up a mailing
> list (we're talking weeks, not days). Why not start one on Google groups
> and
> see how many people sign up?
>
> Risker
>

It is Wikimedia business. It would not be appropriate to involve a third
party.

Fred



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[stevertigo]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Risker  wrote:

>
> Stevertigo, from experience I know it takes some time to set up a mailing
> list (we're talking weeks, not days). Why not start one on Google groups
> and
> see how many people sign up?
>
>
Risker, from experience, I know what you say to be not true. I remember
Brion starting several language mailing lists in about 10 minutes with
nothing more than a casual request on intlwiki-l.

Even you and Thomas who have expressed several critical concerns and
questions, do not outright state your opposition to such a lists' creation.
If you are receiving transmissions that indiate other concerns, please list
those concerns along with their sources here, so we can deal with those.

-Stevertigo
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Risker]

2009/6/27 stevertigo 

> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Fred Bauder 
> wrote:
>
> > > I would actually suggest two lists, if we could do this -
> > >
> > > One, an announce-only list which summarized ongoing dispute resolution
> > > (arbcom cases, RFCs, community discussions of note elsewhere) for
> > > those who find following all the threads on-wiki daunting with real
> > > life time constraints.
> > >
> > > Two, discussion.
> > >
> > > Perhaps one list, but a regular posting of the announcements, but I
> > > think some people would be more interested in just announcements.  I
> > > would participate in both, but I think that giving some people the
> > > option to just get the announcements is more respectful of their
> > > bandwidth...
> >
> > I think this is a good refinement of the idea.
> >
>
> I personally don't understand the "announce" format or its usefulness,
> George, but I have no objection.  I don't know now it would be populated
> either, as it would require DR to get its ducks in a row overall. Maybe not
> a bad thing, actually, but let's deal with the main discussion list first
> though.
>
> -Stevertigo
> ___
>

Stevertigo, from experience I know it takes some time to set up a mailing
list (we're talking weeks, not days). Why not start one on Google groups and
see how many people sign up?

Risker
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[stevertigo]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Fred Bauder  wrote:

> > I would actually suggest two lists, if we could do this -
> >
> > One, an announce-only list which summarized ongoing dispute resolution
> > (arbcom cases, RFCs, community discussions of note elsewhere) for
> > those who find following all the threads on-wiki daunting with real
> > life time constraints.
> >
> > Two, discussion.
> >
> > Perhaps one list, but a regular posting of the announcements, but I
> > think some people would be more interested in just announcements.  I
> > would participate in both, but I think that giving some people the
> > option to just get the announcements is more respectful of their
> > bandwidth...
>
> I think this is a good refinement of the idea.
>

I personally don't understand the "announce" format or its usefulness,
George, but I have no objection.  I don't know now it would be populated
either, as it would require DR to get its ducks in a row overall. Maybe not
a bad thing, actually, but let's deal with the main discussion list first
though.

-Stevertigo
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[stevertigo]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> 2009/6/27 stevertigo :
> > Hm. So you are saying that "definitions have consequences?"
>
> Yes. A logical argument generally starts by defining some terms and
> stating a few axioms and following logical implications from those.
>

My arguments tend to be more rational than "logical."

> Speaking of definitions: You also previously used the term "problem:"
> Every
> > edit conflict is a "problem" and DR itself is almost the same as it was
> 5.7
> > years ago.
> > You also used the term "current system:" It is my understanding that a
> > "convention" is not a "system."
>
> I'm guessing you don't mean "edit conflict" as in when two people edit
> the same page at the same time? You mean "edit *war*", yes? I don't
> see why an old system is necessarily a bad one and you haven't
> explained how your system would be better than the current one (which
> is far more than just conventions, we have very clear policy on DR).
>

Not all "conflicts" rise to the level of "wars."  So not all edit conflicts
are "edit wars." The latter term has implications that transcend most
"conflicts between editors" or "editorial conflicts."

The technical usage of "edit conflict" to mean a state wherein a session has
been interrupted by changes by another user, in a certain way usurps the
canonical (common English) usage of the word "conflict" for a technical
purpose.  And even in technical context, its a bit of an outdated misnomer:

* Outdated, because since  section editing was implemented five years ago,
they rarely happen.
* Misnomer, because those "conflicts" are technical and not "edit"-orial,
and anyway are not so much "conflicts" as they are "interrupts." (Note that
other wiki software have these handled via simple usage of session lockouts.
Not to say that such would work for us, though).

If its got a simple technical solution, its probably not the "conflict" we
are talking about. This should correct not just your terminology, but our
general conventional misuse which I too once or twice have been a party to.
Its been a while since Ive had an "edit interrupt" myself.  Edit conflicts
(not "wars") however occur hourly. :-)

-Stevertigo
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[stevertigo]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> 2009/6/27 Fred Bauder :
> > It would allow subscribers to keep track of what is going on. It would
> > not try to engage in dispute resolution but discuss it and point to it.
>
> That's a different idea to the one I believe was originally proposed.
> I don't really object to your idea. I find it all too easy to stumble
> across drama as it is, so I'm not sure I see the benefit, but if
> people want to know where to go for the best drama, why not tell them?


I don't see Fred's ideas or insights as being particularly in conflict with
the idea I proposed.
In fact, as I proposed it, I didn't get into any particular details. I
simply assumed that if people
agreed on the general scope, they could also agree on the scope such a list
might have.

Indeed, someone who might be interested in getting help for a particular
edit conflict and might want to drop a note to the mailing list might like
not getting their head bitten off by someone on this one.

-Stevertigo
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[stevertigo]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:


> 2009/6/27 stevertigo :
>

> For one, we don't always do things to "solve problems" - sometimes we do
> > things because they are experimental or synergistic.
>
> Ok, you may not want to solve a problem, but presumably you want to
> achieve something. What is your goal?


 My goal is total and complete synergy.

-Stevertigo
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[geni]

2009/6/26 geni :
> 2009/6/26 Andrew Gray :
>> 2009/6/26 Carcharoth :
>>> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/News_of_Michael_Jackson%27s_death_overloads_Internet_sites_and_sparks_hoaxes
>>>
>>> Is there anything anywhere (apart from the long thread on ANI) about
>>> the effect on traffic for Wikipedia?
>>>
>>> Ah. Here we go:
>>>
>>> http://stats.grok.se/en/200906/Michael_Jackson
>>>
>>> 6.4K hits to to 1.4M.
>>>
>>> That's a traffic spike right enough.
>>
>> Yeah; for what it's worth, 2300 to  UTC was just short of a
>> million hits. Today, I wouldn't be surprised to see it north of four.
>
> Once you factored in those going to redirect pages it was about 1.1 million.
>
>
>
> --
> geni
>

5.9 million total for the day.

-- 
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/27 stevertigo :
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> 2009/6/27 stevertigo :
>>> You could start a thread called  "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and
>>> there
>>> we can debate whether the axiom applies to anything other than
>>> appliances.
>> That's not an axiom, it is a consequence of the definitions of "broke"
>> and "fix".
> Hm. So you are saying that "definitions have consequences?"

Yes. A logical argument generally starts by defining some terms and
stating a few axioms and following logical implications from those.

> Speaking of definitions: You also previously used the term "problem:" Every
> edit conflict is a "problem" and DR itself is almost the same as it was 5.7
> years ago.
> You also used the term "current system:" It is my understanding that a
> "convention" is not a "system."

I'm guessing you don't mean "edit conflict" as in when two people edit
the same page at the same time? You mean "edit *war*", yes? I don't
see why an old system is necessarily a bad one and you haven't
explained how your system would be better than the current one (which
is far more than just conventions, we have very clear policy on DR).

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/27 stevertigo :
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Risker  wrote:
>
>> It's a bit unclear what problem this list (these lists?) would be intended
>> to solve.
>>
>
> Great comments, Risker.
>
> For one, we don't always do things to "solve problems" - sometimes we do
> things because they are experimental or synergistic.

Ok, you may not want to solve a problem, but presumably you want to
achieve something. What is your goal?

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/27 Fred Bauder :
> It would allow subscribers to keep track of what is going on. It would
> not try to engage in dispute resolution but discuss it and point to it.

That's a different idea to the one I believe was originally proposed.
I don't really object to your idea. I find it all too easy to stumble
across drama as it is, so I'm not sure I see the benefit, but if
people want to know where to go for the best drama, why not tell them?

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Fred Bauder]

> 2009/6/27 stevertigo 
>
>> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Thomas Dalton > >wrote:
>>
>> > 2009/6/27 stevertigo :
>> >
>>
>>
>> > > You could start a thread called  "if it ain't broke don't fix it"
>> and
>> > there
>> > > we can debate whether the axiom applies to anything other than
>> > appliances.
>> > > :-)
>> >
>> > That's not an axiom, it is a consequence of the definitions of
>> "broke"
>> > and "fix".
>>
>>
>> Hm. So you are saying that "definitions have consequences?"
>>
>> Speaking of definitions: You also previously used the term "problem:"
>> Every
>> edit conflict is a "problem" and DR itself is almost the same as it was
>> 5.7
>> years ago.
>> You also used the term "current system:" It is my understanding that a
>> "convention" is not a "system."
>>
>> -Stevertigo
>>
>
> It's a bit unclear what problem this list (these lists?) would be
> intended
> to solve.
>
> Content disputes? is there a reason why we would want people to discuss
> content disputes off-wiki? Seems to me one of the main allegations we
> hear
> at the Arbitration Committee is excess off-wiki communication related to
> content.
>
> Behaviour disputes?  How will a mailing list address these better than
> current processes? (Note, I'm not a big fan of RFCs, but I would like to
> hear a rationale about why mailing lists are better.) What if the
> person(s)
> whose behaviour is the subject of the mailing list thread chooses not to
> join the mailing list?
>
> Interpersonal disputes?  Again, how is a mailing list better? and what
> happens when only one party joins the mailing list?
>
> Just some thoughts.
>
> Risker
>

It would allow subscribers to keep track of what is going on. It would
not try to engage in dispute resolution but discuss it and point to it.

Fred



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[Casey Brown]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Carcharoth wrote:
> Well, even if I can't read what Brion wrote (explanied by others
> elsewhere in this thread), there is something about it by Noam Cohen
> in the "mediadecoder blogs" section of the New York Times website.

Google has a cached version anyway, in case you were still wondering.


-- 
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[stevertigo]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Risker  wrote:

> It's a bit unclear what problem this list (these lists?) would be intended
> to solve.
>

Great comments, Risker.

For one, we don't always do things to "solve problems" - sometimes we do
things because they are experimental or synergistic.

Content disputes? is there a reason why we would want people to discuss
> content disputes off-wiki? Seems to me one of the main allegations we hear
> at the Arbitration Committee is excess off-wiki communication related to
> content.
>

Excellent point. In a certain way, it seems that there must be some
limitation upon what depth content disputes may be discussed on list. In
another respect, a certain integration between talk page and list discussion
may help to 1) abstract conflicts from being localized to unseen talk pages,
and 2) bring abstract general-interest attention to specific talk pages.  In
reality, this is the way wikien-l used to work, before it got all
abstractified and focused exclusively on talking about what newspapers are
saying about us.

Behaviour disputes?  How will a mailing list address these better than
> current processes? (Note, I'm not a big fan of RFCs, but I would like to
> hear a rationale about why mailing lists are better.) What if the person(s)
> whose behaviour is the subject of the mailing list thread chooses not to
> join the mailing list?
>

Indeed, the list should not replace anything else. Rather it should give
people an eagle-eye view of disputes, and from this vantage this offers a
certain extra dimension to using RFC's, etc.

Interpersonal disputes?  Again, how is a mailing list better? and what
> happens when only one party joins the mailing list?
>

Very good point. Again, as far as specific conflicts go, it would be more of
an announce list. As far as general discussion goes, well this aspect at
least to my mind is quite necessary, as general discussion on talk pages is
not useful to anyone.

-Stevertigo
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Risker]

2009/6/27 stevertigo 

> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Thomas Dalton  >wrote:
>
> > 2009/6/27 stevertigo :
> >
>
>
> > > You could start a thread called  "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and
> > there
> > > we can debate whether the axiom applies to anything other than
> > appliances.
> > > :-)
> >
> > That's not an axiom, it is a consequence of the definitions of "broke"
> > and "fix".
>
>
> Hm. So you are saying that "definitions have consequences?"
>
> Speaking of definitions: You also previously used the term "problem:" Every
> edit conflict is a "problem" and DR itself is almost the same as it was 5.7
> years ago.
> You also used the term "current system:" It is my understanding that a
> "convention" is not a "system."
>
> -Stevertigo
>

It's a bit unclear what problem this list (these lists?) would be intended
to solve.

Content disputes? is there a reason why we would want people to discuss
content disputes off-wiki? Seems to me one of the main allegations we hear
at the Arbitration Committee is excess off-wiki communication related to
content.

Behaviour disputes?  How will a mailing list address these better than
current processes? (Note, I'm not a big fan of RFCs, but I would like to
hear a rationale about why mailing lists are better.) What if the person(s)
whose behaviour is the subject of the mailing list thread chooses not to
join the mailing list?

Interpersonal disputes?  Again, how is a mailing list better? and what
happens when only one party joins the mailing list?

Just some thoughts.

Risker
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Fred Bauder]

> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:17 PM, stevertigo wrote:
>> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Thomas Dalton
>> wrote:
>>
>>> 2009/6/27 stevertigo :
>>>
>>
>>
>>> > Thomas, the distinctions you present -- that dispute resolution has
>>> public
>>> > and private dimensions, and that these different dimensions of
>>> dispute
>>> > resolution require different technological formats -- is unknown to
>>> me.
>>> Is
>>> > there policy in which the necessity for these distinctions is
>>> outlined?
>>>
>>> I never said it was necessary, I just said that's the way it is.
>>> Unless you can describe a problem with a current system, I see no
>>> reason to change it.
>>>
>>
>> You could start a thread called  "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and
>> there
>> we can debate whether the axiom applies to anything other than
>> appliances.
>> :-)
>
> I would actually suggest two lists, if we could do this -
>
> One, an announce-only list which summarized ongoing dispute resolution
> (arbcom cases, RFCs, community discussions of note elsewhere) for
> those who find following all the threads on-wiki daunting with real
> life time constraints.
>
> Two, discussion.
>
> Perhaps one list, but a regular posting of the announcements, but I
> think some people would be more interested in just announcements.  I
> would participate in both, but I think that giving some people the
> option to just get the announcements is more respectful of their
> bandwidth...
>
>
> --
> -george william herbert
> george.herb...@gmail.com
>

I think this is a good refinement of the idea.

Fred



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[stevertigo]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> 2009/6/27 stevertigo :
>


> > You could start a thread called  "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and
> there
> > we can debate whether the axiom applies to anything other than
> appliances.
> > :-)
>
> That's not an axiom, it is a consequence of the definitions of "broke"
> and "fix".


Hm. So you are saying that "definitions have consequences?"

Speaking of definitions: You also previously used the term "problem:" Every
edit conflict is a "problem" and DR itself is almost the same as it was 5.7
years ago.
You also used the term "current system:" It is my understanding that a
"convention" is not a "system."

-Stevertigo
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[stevertigo]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:21 PM, Fred Bauder  wrote:


> Contact a server admin on IRC in #wikimedia-tech
>

I've filed a bug on mediazilla - with a link to this discussion.

-Stevertigo
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/27 stevertigo :
> You could start a thread called  "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and there
> we can debate whether the axiom applies to anything other than appliances.
> :-)

That's not an axiom, it is a consequence of the definitions of "broke"
and "fix".

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[George Herbert]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:17 PM, stevertigo wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:
>
>> 2009/6/27 stevertigo :
>>
>
>
>> > Thomas, the distinctions you present -- that dispute resolution has
>> public
>> > and private dimensions, and that these different dimensions of dispute
>> > resolution require different technological formats -- is unknown to me.
>> Is
>> > there policy in which the necessity for these distinctions is outlined?
>>
>> I never said it was necessary, I just said that's the way it is.
>> Unless you can describe a problem with a current system, I see no
>> reason to change it.
>>
>
> You could start a thread called  "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and there
> we can debate whether the axiom applies to anything other than appliances.
> :-)

I would actually suggest two lists, if we could do this -

One, an announce-only list which summarized ongoing dispute resolution
(arbcom cases, RFCs, community discussions of note elsewhere) for
those who find following all the threads on-wiki daunting with real
life time constraints.

Two, discussion.

Perhaps one list, but a regular posting of the announcements, but I
think some people would be more interested in just announcements.  I
would participate in both, but I think that giving some people the
option to just get the announcements is more respectful of their
bandwidth...


-- 
-george william herbert
george.herb...@gmail.com

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Fred Bauder]

>> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Marc Riddell
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The List would need two (at least) Moderators: One that would be very
>>> familiar with the technical and policy aspects of the Project; and one
>>> that
>>> could focus on the interpersonal dialogue itself.
>>>
>>
>> I nominate Fred for one. Angela for the other.
>>
>> -Stevertigo
>>
>
> Fine, but I don't know who sets up mailing lists.
>
> Fred
>

Contact a server admin on IRC in #wikimedia-tech

Fred



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[stevertigo]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> 2009/6/27 stevertigo :
>


> > Thomas, the distinctions you present -- that dispute resolution has
> public
> > and private dimensions, and that these different dimensions of dispute
> > resolution require different technological formats -- is unknown to me.
> Is
> > there policy in which the necessity for these distinctions is outlined?
>
> I never said it was necessary, I just said that's the way it is.
> Unless you can describe a problem with a current system, I see no
> reason to change it.
>

You could start a thread called  "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and there
we can debate whether the axiom applies to anything other than appliances.
:-)

-Stevertigo
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Fred Bauder]

> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Marc Riddell
> wrote:
>
>
>> The List would need two (at least) Moderators: One that would be very
>> familiar with the technical and policy aspects of the Project; and one
>> that
>> could focus on the interpersonal dialogue itself.
>>
>
> I nominate Fred for one. Angela for the other.
>
> -Stevertigo
>

Fine, but I don't know who sets up mailing lists.

Fred


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Fred Bauder]

> 2009/6/27 stevertigo :
>> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Thomas Dalton
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Public dispute resolution happens on wiki, private dispute resolution
>>> happens on closed mailing lists. Where is the gap in the market that
>>> would be filled by a public dispute resolution mailing list?
>>>
>>
>> Thomas, the distinctions you present -- that dispute resolution has
>> public
>> and private dimensions, and that these different dimensions of dispute
>> resolution require different technological formats -- is unknown to me.
>> Is
>> there policy in which the necessity for these distinctions is outlined?
>
> I never said it was necessary, I just said that's the way it is.
> Unless you can describe a problem with a current system, I see no
> reason to change it.
>

I did, such matters are regularly discussed on the functionaries and
arbitration lists, but sometimes not on any mailing list available to
general users. If nothing else, it would be useful to point to
significant ongoing controversies.

Fred Bauder



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[stevertigo]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:


> The List would need two (at least) Moderators: One that would be very
> familiar with the technical and policy aspects of the Project; and one that
> could focus on the interpersonal dialogue itself.
>

I nominate Fred for one. Angela for the other.

-Stevertigo
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/27 stevertigo :
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:
>
>> Public dispute resolution happens on wiki, private dispute resolution
>> happens on closed mailing lists. Where is the gap in the market that
>> would be filled by a public dispute resolution mailing list?
>>
>
> Thomas, the distinctions you present -- that dispute resolution has public
> and private dimensions, and that these different dimensions of dispute
> resolution require different technological formats -- is unknown to me. Is
> there policy in which the necessity for these distinctions is outlined?

I never said it was necessary, I just said that's the way it is.
Unless you can describe a problem with a current system, I see no
reason to change it.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Marc Riddell]

>> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 12:04 AM, stevertigo  wrote:
>> 
>>> I think its time we had a mailing list set up explicitly for all
>>> dispute
>>> resolution issues.
>>> I mean wikien doesn't deal with these anymore, Arbcom and Medcom lists
>>> are
>>> closed-source,
>>> and* its been almost six years since the "formal process for handling
>>> disputes" got started in the first place (Oct 2 2003*).
>>> 
>>> I have spoken.
>>> -Stevertigo
>>> ___
>>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>> 
>> 
>> What's wrong with the wiki, for wiki-related things?
>> 
>> --
>> Alex
>> (User:Majorly)
>> 
on 6/26/09 7:41 PM, Fred Bauder at fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote:
> 
> Entire revolutions can occur the wiki without coming to a user's
> attention. A mailing list devoted to dispute resolution would focus
> attention, even if all it did was point to significant on wiki
> discussiona. The functionaries list and, presumably the arbitration list
> already do this. A dispute resolution list would clue everyone in, not
> just functionaries and arbitrators.
> 
> Fred

The List would need two (at least) Moderators: One that would be very
familiar with the technical and policy aspects of the Project; and one that
could focus on the interpersonal dialogue itself.

Marc Riddell


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[stevertigo]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Fred Bauder  wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Fred Bauder wrote:
>
> No problem, we might as well take a stab at it. However, my experience
> here is of deadlock, not resolution. Deadlock characterized by sterile
> repetition of fixed positions.
>

Great. One of us should ask the techies to get it set up.


[To Alex] Entire revolutions can occur the wiki without coming to a user's
> attention. A mailing list devoted to dispute resolution would focus
> attention, even if all it did was point to significant on wiki
> discussions. The functionaries list and, presumably the arbitration list
> already do this. A dispute resolution list would clue everyone in, not
> just functionaries and arbitrators.
>

Indeed. Ostensibly, the list would deal with not just specific dispute
resolutions, but with dispute resolution itself - how it works, etc. These
concepts haven't changed much since late 2003, and as such there may need to
be adjustments - people have ideas I'm sure. And of course, dealing with
both specific cases and with general concepts in the same context makes it a
bit of an integration issue. And that's another answer for Alex's question -
integration based on a particular concept. If the concept was Electric
Trains, then of course a separate mailing list wouldn't be justified.

-Stevertigo
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia slags off Palmerston North

[Carcharoth]

On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 12:43 AM, Cary Bass wrote:
> Thomas Dalton wrote:
>> 2009/6/27  :
>>
>>>  OK but apply it.
>>> Who do you ask at "Wikipedia" for comment.
>>> And how do you state "Wikipedia could not be reached for comment" ?
>>>
>>
>> Well, I would click the "Contact Wikipedia" link in the sidebar,
>> personally. Given that it says "Contact Wikipedia" not "Contact a
>> representative of the Wikimedia movement", I think we can excuse the
>> equally imprecise (but concise) language used by the journalist.
>>
> I'm fairly certain Wikipedia was off hiking in the Appalachians when
> they tried to call.

And Wikipedia had left it's satellite phone at home...

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[stevertigo]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> Public dispute resolution happens on wiki, private dispute resolution
> happens on closed mailing lists. Where is the gap in the market that
> would be filled by a public dispute resolution mailing list?
>

Thomas, the distinctions you present -- that dispute resolution has public
and private dimensions, and that these different dimensions of dispute
resolution require different technological formats -- is unknown to me. Is
there policy in which the necessity for these distinctions is outlined?

-Stevertigo
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia slags off Palmerston North

[Cary Bass]

Thomas Dalton wrote:
> 2009/6/27  :
>   
>>  OK but apply it.
>> Who do you ask at "Wikipedia" for comment.
>> And how do you state "Wikipedia could not be reached for comment" ?
>> 
>
> Well, I would click the "Contact Wikipedia" link in the sidebar,
> personally. Given that it says "Contact Wikipedia" not "Contact a
> representative of the Wikimedia movement", I think we can excuse the
> equally imprecise (but concise) language used by the journalist.
>   
I'm fairly certain Wikipedia was off hiking in the Appalachians when
they tried to call.

Cary

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Fred Bauder]

> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 12:04 AM, stevertigo  wrote:
>
>> I think its time we had a mailing list set up explicitly for all
>> dispute
>> resolution issues.
>> I mean wikien doesn't deal with these anymore, Arbcom and Medcom lists
>> are
>> closed-source,
>> and* its been almost six years since the "formal process for handling
>> disputes" got started in the first place (Oct 2 2003*).
>>
>> I have spoken.
>> -Stevertigo
>> ___
>> WikiEN-l mailing list
>> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>>
>
> What's wrong with the wiki, for wiki-related things?
>
> --
> Alex
> (User:Majorly)
>

Entire revolutions can occur the wiki without coming to a user's
attention. A mailing list devoted to dispute resolution would focus
attention, even if all it did was point to significant on wiki
discussiona. The functionaries list and, presumably the arbitration list
already do this. A dispute resolution list would clue everyone in, not
just functionaries and arbitrators.

Fred



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia slags off Palmerston North

[Phil Nash]

Ken Arromdee wrote:
>> It's like a BLP except that the subject isn't a person.  The same
>> problems come up--ultimately, if a city can't attract professionals
>> because of a bad Wikipedia article, it's still real people being
>> hurt in real-life ways by
>> us.  Just not one at a time.  It's also like BLP in that the city's
>> marginally notable and probably isn't on a lot of watchlists.
>>
>> Maybe we should expand the BLP concept to include organizations,
>> cities, etc.? Like BLP, it's most needed when the group is small.
>> There won't be
>> Biography of Living Organization problems on Coca-Cola any more than
>> there will be BLP problems on Bill Gates.  But BLO problems on small
>> cities (or small companies, etc.) where the Wikipedia entry is the
>> top search result, can wreak havoc.

[[WP:UNDUE]] should cover this. I wouldn't want a BLP analogy to 
settlements, because most major cities tend to have crime, simply because of 
the opportunities that exist; but to have an analogous policy for all 
settlements would seem to be over-egging the pudding somewhat.



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Fred Bauder]

> I think its time we had a mailing list set up explicitly for all dispute
> resolution issues.
> I mean wikien doesn't deal with these anymore, Arbcom and Medcom lists
> are
> closed-source,
> and* its been almost six years since the "formal process for handling
> disputes" got started in the first place (Oct 2 2003*).
>
> I have spoken.
> -Stevertigo
>

No problem, we might as well take a stab at it. However, my experience
here is of deadlock, not resolution. Deadlock characterized by sterile
repetition of fixed positions.

Fred



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia slags off Palmerston North

[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/27  :
>
>  OK but apply it.
> Who do you ask at "Wikipedia" for comment.
> And how do you state "Wikipedia could not be reached for comment" ?

Well, I would click the "Contact Wikipedia" link in the sidebar,
personally. Given that it says "Contact Wikipedia" not "Contact a
representative of the Wikimedia movement", I think we can excuse the
equally imprecise (but concise) language used by the journalist.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia slags off Palmerston North

[wjhonson]

 OK but apply it.
Who do you ask at "Wikipedia" for comment.
And how do you state "Wikipedia could not be reached for comment" ?




 Metonymy example: The White House supports the bill (using The White
House instead of the President. The President is not like The White
House, but there is contiguity between them...



 


 


 

-Original Message-
From: Ken Arromdee 
To: English Wikipedia 
Sent: Fri, Jun 26, 2009 3:17 pm
Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia slags off Palmerston North










On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
> Worth  quoting here:
> 
> "Wikipedia could not be reached for  comment.">>
> -
>  
> The coffee I had this morning was crappy.  The coffee could not be  reached 
> for comment.
> Wikipedia is not a person who can comment.  In fact Wikipedia is not a  
> person or even sentient or even living.
>  
> How exactly do you get comment from Wikipedia anyway?
> Oops I stepped in that one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy

Metonymy example: The White House supports the bill (using The White
House instead of the President. The President is not like The White
House, but there is contiguity between them...


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/27 stevertigo :
> I think its time we had a mailing list set up explicitly for all dispute
> resolution issues.
> I mean wikien doesn't deal with these anymore, Arbcom and Medcom lists are
> closed-source,
> and* its been almost six years since the "formal process for handling
> disputes" got started in the first place (Oct 2 2003*).

Public dispute resolution happens on wiki, private dispute resolution
happens on closed mailing lists. Where is the gap in the market that
would be filled by a public dispute resolution mailing list?

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[stevertigo]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Al Tally wrote:

>
> What's wrong with the wiki, for wiki-related things?


I have not said anything was "wrong with the wiki," only that there should
be a mailing list for dealing with dispute resolution.  Can you clarify your
question a bit?

-Stevertigo
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[Al Tally]

On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 12:04 AM, stevertigo  wrote:

> I think its time we had a mailing list set up explicitly for all dispute
> resolution issues.
> I mean wikien doesn't deal with these anymore, Arbcom and Medcom lists are
> closed-source,
> and* its been almost six years since the "formal process for handling
> disputes" got started in the first place (Oct 2 2003*).
>
> I have spoken.
> -Stevertigo
> ___
> WikiEN-l mailing list
> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>

What's wrong with the wiki, for wiki-related things?

-- 
Alex
(User:Majorly)
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[WikiEN-l] Dispute resolution mailing list

[stevertigo]

I think its time we had a mailing list set up explicitly for all dispute
resolution issues.
I mean wikien doesn't deal with these anymore, Arbcom and Medcom lists are
closed-source,
and* its been almost six years since the "formal process for handling
disputes" got started in the first place (Oct 2 2003*).

I have spoken.
-Stevertigo
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[Eugene van der Pijll]

Charles Matthews schreef:
> The third hit is [[af:Michael Jackson]] - yes, the 
> Afrikaans Wikipedia page.

Likely because "Afrikaans" is the first interwiki link on the English
wikipedia (and other large WPs). Such a prominent link from the number 1
Google hit apparently gives it a large boost in the search results.

Eugene

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia slags off Palmerston North

[Ken Arromdee]

On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
> Worth  quoting here:
> 
> "Wikipedia could not be reached for  comment.">>
> -
>  
> The coffee I had this morning was crappy.  The coffee could not be  reached 
> for comment.
> Wikipedia is not a person who can comment.  In fact Wikipedia is not a  
> person or even sentient or even living.
>  
> How exactly do you get comment from Wikipedia anyway?
> Oops I stepped in that one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy

Metonymy example: The White House supports the bill (using The White
House instead of the President. The President is not like The White
House, but there is contiguity between them...


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia slags off Palmerston North

[Ken Arromdee]

It's like a BLP except that the subject isn't a person.  The same problems
come up--ultimately, if a city can't attract professionals because of a bad
Wikipedia article, it's still real people being hurt in real-life ways by
us.  Just not one at a time.  It's also like BLP in that the city's marginally
notable and probably isn't on a lot of watchlists.

Maybe we should expand the BLP concept to include organizations, cities, etc.?
Like BLP, it's most needed when the group is small.  There won't be
Biography of Living Organization problems on Coca-Cola any more than there
will be BLP problems on Bill Gates.  But BLO problems on small cities (or
small companies, etc.) where the Wikipedia entry is the top search result,
can wreak havoc.


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[Carcharoth]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Carcharoth wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Carcharoth 
> wrote:
>> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/News_of_Michael_Jackson%27s_death_overloads_Internet_sites_and_sparks_hoaxes
>>
>> Is there anything anywhere (apart from the long thread on ANI) about
>> the effect on traffic for Wikipedia?
>>
>> Ah. Here we go:
>>
>> http://stats.grok.se/en/200906/Michael_Jackson
>>
>> 6.4K hits to to 1.4M.
>>
>> That's a traffic spike right enough.
>
> Hmm.
>
> "Brion Vibber "Current events and traffic spikes". June 26, 2009 —
> Diary entry by the Chief Technical Officer of the Wikimedia Foundation
> describing in detail the effects on the Wikimedia Foundation's web
> servers, which host both Wikipedia and Wikinews, of the news. (link
> currently broken)"
>
> Link currently broken? Tsk.

Well, even if I can't read what Brion wrote (explanied by others
elsewhere in this thread), there is something about it by Noam Cohen
in the "mediadecoder blogs" section of the New York Times website.

"With Jackson Entry, Wikipedia May Have Set a Record"

http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/with-jackson-entry-wikipedia-may-have-set-a-record/

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[Carcharoth]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 8:52 PM, Charles
Matthews wrote:
> Hmm ... Google "Michael Jackson" and "Wikipedia". Top two hits are enWP
> pages - no surprise.  The third hit is [[af:Michael Jackson]] - yes, the
> Afrikaans Wikipedia page.  One sentence and more interwikis than you can
> shake a memory stick at.  Google ... what were you thinking of?

Strange. I did a search for:

wikipedia + michael + jackson

Third hit (or second if you discount indented results) was
[[li:Michael Jackson]] - Limburgian!

Put quotes around "michael jackson" - same result: third hit (or
second if you discount indented results).

Switch order of search:

"michael jackson" + wikipedia

Now the Afrikaans article is where the Limburgian article was. With
the Limburgian article in fifth place.

But the results are in flux even as I search.

Maybe we need two new categories:

[[:Category:People whose death disrupts the internet]]
[[:Category:People whose death disrupts Google]]

Presumably it is because millions of people are following links and
messing things up for Google. Though that might actually be a feature,
not a bug. If these other Wikipedia articles are popular, that affects
the Google results, doesn't it? [Forgive me if that completely
misunderstands how Google works.]

Of course, most people search for michael + jackson, and get the news
results, the official site, and the Wikipedia article, so things are
really working OK (if you agree that Wikipedia articles should be so
high up the search results - something I'm not always sure about). I
mean, does anyone apart from those looking for the Wikipedia article
put "Wikipedia" in the search box?

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[Charles Matthews]

Hmm ... Google "Michael Jackson" and "Wikipedia". Top two hits are enWP 
pages - no surprise.  The third hit is [[af:Michael Jackson]] - yes, the 
Afrikaans Wikipedia page.  One sentence and more interwikis than you can 
shake a memory stick at.  Google ... what were you thinking of?

Charles


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia slags off Palmerston North

[WJhonson]

In a message dated 6/26/2009 5:12:03 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
carcharot...@googlemail.com writes:

Worth  quoting here:

"Wikipedia could not be reached for  comment.">>
-
 
The coffee I had this morning was crappy.  The coffee could not be  reached 
for comment.
Wikipedia is not a person who can comment.  In fact Wikipedia is not a  
person or even sentient or even living.
 
How exactly do you get comment from Wikipedia anyway?
Oops I stepped in that one
 
Will Johnson
 
 
 
 
**Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the 
grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood0005)
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[Carcharoth]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 7:14 PM, David Gerard wrote:
> http://stereotypist.livejournal.com/131545.html

Ooh. Nice cartoon, but don't scroll down. Horrible photoshopped picture...

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[Carcharoth]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 7:06 PM, Risker wrote:
> 2009/6/26 Carcharoth  wrote:

>> Where do the hourly hits stats come from?
>>
> [[Wikipedia:Popular pages]] -
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Popular_pages You can check the
> history for prior hours.

Thanks. You can guess the next question, right? :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Popular_articles

Which is updated by a bot.

Cool! A map of the Earth showing which parts of the world are sleeping
(or should be sleeping).

I ended up here:

http://wikistics.falsikon.de/

Nice site.

With a FAQ:

http://wikistics.falsikon.de/faq.htm

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[David Gerard]

http://stereotypist.livejournal.com/131545.html


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[Risker]

2009/6/26 Carcharoth 

> On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:47 PM, geni wrote:
> > 2009/6/26 Andrew Gray :
> >> 2009/6/26 Carcharoth :
> >>>
> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/News_of_Michael_Jackson%27s_death_overloads_Internet_sites_and_sparks_hoaxes
> >>>
> >>> Is there anything anywhere (apart from the long thread on ANI) about
> >>> the effect on traffic for Wikipedia?
> >>>
> >>> Ah. Here we go:
> >>>
> >>> http://stats.grok.se/en/200906/Michael_Jackson
> >>>
> >>> 6.4K hits to to 1.4M.
> >>>
> >>> That's a traffic spike right enough.
> >>
> >> Yeah; for what it's worth, 2300 to  UTC was just short of a
> >> million hits. Today, I wouldn't be surprised to see it north of four.
> >
> > Once you factored in those going to redirect pages it was about 1.1
> million.
>
> Where do the hourly hits stats come from?
>
>
[[Wikipedia:Popular pages]] -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Popular_pages You can check the
history for prior hours.

Two thirds of the most popular pages in the past hour are related to Michael
Jackson.

Risker
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[Carcharoth]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:47 PM, geni wrote:
> 2009/6/26 Andrew Gray :
>> 2009/6/26 Carcharoth :
>>> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/News_of_Michael_Jackson%27s_death_overloads_Internet_sites_and_sparks_hoaxes
>>>
>>> Is there anything anywhere (apart from the long thread on ANI) about
>>> the effect on traffic for Wikipedia?
>>>
>>> Ah. Here we go:
>>>
>>> http://stats.grok.se/en/200906/Michael_Jackson
>>>
>>> 6.4K hits to to 1.4M.
>>>
>>> That's a traffic spike right enough.
>>
>> Yeah; for what it's worth, 2300 to  UTC was just short of a
>> million hits. Today, I wouldn't be surprised to see it north of four.
>
> Once you factored in those going to redirect pages it was about 1.1 million.

Where do the hourly hits stats come from?

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[geni]

2009/6/26 Andrew Gray :
> 2009/6/26 Carcharoth :
>> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/News_of_Michael_Jackson%27s_death_overloads_Internet_sites_and_sparks_hoaxes
>>
>> Is there anything anywhere (apart from the long thread on ANI) about
>> the effect on traffic for Wikipedia?
>>
>> Ah. Here we go:
>>
>> http://stats.grok.se/en/200906/Michael_Jackson
>>
>> 6.4K hits to to 1.4M.
>>
>> That's a traffic spike right enough.
>
> Yeah; for what it's worth, 2300 to  UTC was just short of a
> million hits. Today, I wouldn't be surprised to see it north of four.

Once you factored in those going to redirect pages it was about 1.1 million.



-- 
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[Casey Brown]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 1:13 PM, Carcharoth wrote:
> "Brion Vibber "Current events and traffic spikes". June 26, 2009 —
> Diary entry by the Chief Technical Officer of the Wikimedia Foundation
> describing in detail the effects on the Wikimedia Foundation's web
> servers, which host both Wikipedia and Wikinews, of the news. (link
> currently broken)"
>
> Link currently broken? Tsk.
>

It's from the techblog , but the WMF
blogs are currently down due to some software issues unfortunately.

-- 
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[Andrew Gray]

2009/6/26 Carcharoth :
> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/News_of_Michael_Jackson%27s_death_overloads_Internet_sites_and_sparks_hoaxes
>
> Is there anything anywhere (apart from the long thread on ANI) about
> the effect on traffic for Wikipedia?
>
> Ah. Here we go:
>
> http://stats.grok.se/en/200906/Michael_Jackson
>
> 6.4K hits to to 1.4M.
>
> That's a traffic spike right enough.

Yeah; for what it's worth, 2300 to  UTC was just short of a
million hits. Today, I wouldn't be surprised to see it north of four.

-- 
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[Cary Bass]

Carcharoth wrote:
> Hmm.
> "Brion Vibber "Current events and traffic spikes". June 26, 2009 —
> Diary entry by the Chief Technical Officer of the Wikimedia Foundation
> describing in detail the effects on the Wikimedia Foundation's web
> servers, which host both Wikipedia and Wikinews, of the news. (link
> currently broken)"
>
> Link currently broken? Tsk.
>   
See below, from Jay Walsh (to foundation-l):

Jay Walsh wrote:
> Hi all - just a quick FYI in case you attempt to access the  
> Foundations two official blogs,
>
> We've had to shut both blogs down (they live in the same server space)  
> to investigate some tech/patch issues with wordpress.  We're hoping to  
> have things back up by the weekend or early next week at the latest.
>
> Wanted to let people know in case you were trying to access and were  
> having troubles.
>
> Thanks!
>   

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikinews page rating system and social bookmarking

[Cary Bass]

Carcharoth wrote:
> Ooh! Wikinews have a page rating system for their readers to use. How
> long has that been in use for and how much traffic does it get and is
> it in use on any other Wikimedia projects? There is also a "Share
> this" feature to allow cross-linking and social bookmarking. Nice.
> Same questions for that feature!
>
> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Social_bookmarks
>
> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Water_cooler/proposals/Archive/16#Adding_a_poll_and_an_article_rating.2Fcomment_combination_extension
>
> The above was the closest I could get to the news article rating
> feature. Is there a wikinews page somewhere about that?
>
> Carcharoth
>   
I've contributed to Wikinews and reviewed articles for flagging, but
I've never even submitted a "what do you think" form, or even heard it
discussed on the channel or their mailing list. I think it's safe to say
it's not very well used.

Cary

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[WikiEN-l] Wikinews page rating system and social bookmarking

[Carcharoth]

Ooh! Wikinews have a page rating system for their readers to use. How
long has that been in use for and how much traffic does it get and is
it in use on any other Wikimedia projects? There is also a "Share
this" feature to allow cross-linking and social bookmarking. Nice.
Same questions for that feature!

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Social_bookmarks

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Water_cooler/proposals/Archive/16#Adding_a_poll_and_an_article_rating.2Fcomment_combination_extension

The above was the closest I could get to the news article rating
feature. Is there a wikinews page somewhere about that?

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[geni]

2009/6/26 Carcharoth :
> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/News_of_Michael_Jackson%27s_death_overloads_Internet_sites_and_sparks_hoaxes
>
> Is there anything anywhere (apart from the long thread on ANI) about
> the effect on traffic for Wikipedia?
>
> Ah. Here we go:
>
> http://stats.grok.se/en/200906/Michael_Jackson
>
> 6.4K hits to to 1.4M.
>
> That's a traffic spike right enough.
>
> Carcharoth

I think we will see an even bigger one when we get the stats for
today. Page was at over 1 million views an hour a peak.


-- 
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[Carcharoth]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Carcharoth wrote:
> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/News_of_Michael_Jackson%27s_death_overloads_Internet_sites_and_sparks_hoaxes
>
> Is there anything anywhere (apart from the long thread on ANI) about
> the effect on traffic for Wikipedia?
>
> Ah. Here we go:
>
> http://stats.grok.se/en/200906/Michael_Jackson
>
> 6.4K hits to to 1.4M.
>
> That's a traffic spike right enough.

Hmm.

"Brion Vibber "Current events and traffic spikes". June 26, 2009 —
Diary entry by the Chief Technical Officer of the Wikimedia Foundation
describing in detail the effects on the Wikimedia Foundation's web
servers, which host both Wikipedia and Wikinews, of the news. (link
currently broken)"

Link currently broken? Tsk.

Carcharoth

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[WikiEN-l] Internet traffic spikes due to Michael Jackson's death

[Carcharoth]

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/News_of_Michael_Jackson%27s_death_overloads_Internet_sites_and_sparks_hoaxes

Is there anything anywhere (apart from the long thread on ANI) about
the effect on traffic for Wikipedia?

Ah. Here we go:

http://stats.grok.se/en/200906/Michael_Jackson

6.4K hits to to 1.4M.

That's a traffic spike right enough.

Carcharoth

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Re: [WikiEN-l] NY Times: Wired Editor Apologizes for Copying from Wikipedia in New Book

[David Gerard]

2009/6/25 phoebe ayers :

> We give people a lovely pre-made citation on each and every page!
> Every major style manual includes explicit directions on how to cite
> websites! Every academic paper ever published about Wikipedia has
> grappled with this problem and come up with some sort of solution!
> Sheesh.


I asked him directly on his blog what was so difficult about citing us
and what we could do to make it easier. I look forward to a response.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia slags off Palmerston North

[Durova]

Might be a good idea for someone from ComCom to make outreach and find out
who they attempted to contact.

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:39 AM, Charles Matthews <
charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Steve Bennett wrote:
> >
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/2516472/Wikipedia-entries-slag-off-Palmerston-North
> >
> > Maybe I'm getting old and jaded, but when I read that the local
> > council altered the Wikipedia article about their city to be more
> > favourable, my reaction was "oh, good, that was the right thing to
> > do". Heh.
> >
> You meant "neutral" of course ...
>
> Charles
>
>
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-- 
http://durova.blogspot.com/
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Nofollow and sister projects

[geni]

2009/6/26 David Gerard :
> Indeed. Those concerned with the "nofollow issue" are nothing to do
> with Wikipedia or our readers; they are largely a third party (SEOs)
> wanting to get in good with a fourth party (Google), or they're
> conspiracy-theorising nutters (Wikipedia Review). In either case,
> paying attention does very little to write an encyclopedia.
>

Questionable. Nofollow issues probably do have an impact on our
readers. At the very least the fact or internal links are not nofollow
(and no one is suggesting they should be) is probably a factor in such
a wide range of articles doing well in search result pages.

In addition since there are various browser plugins that react to
nofollow tags readers who use them will get a different experience
depending on our actions.

finally not nofollowing a class of external links says we trust some
sites more than others. That the selection of sites is really silly (I
mean do we really trust J random wiki more than the BBC and noaa.gov?)
is a legitimate cause for concern.



-- 
geni

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Nofollow and sister projects

[David Gerard]

2009/6/26 Charles Matthews :

> Fine. So "assume good faith" is not the de facto standard on the
> Internet.  "Assume convoluted conspiracy" is closer to being the de
> facto standard on some forums, to put it bluntly. The reason AGF is a
> good idea for WP is that we have work to do; we can usefully leave it to
> others, less concerned with free content, to type endlessly about things
> about which they are at best half-informed. The "nofollow policy" was
> standard on wikipedias other than the English for a long time without
> anyone kicking up a fuss. Eventually enWP was getting so much spam that
> the spam patrol started lobbying for enWP to get in line with the rest.
> Jimmy Wales certainly promoted the change, but in the end we have to let
> the devs handle the issue when it is this technical (and they are not
> accountable to me, or you). (My recollection, this is.) This is also a
> good idea because we have work to do.


Indeed. Those concerned with the "nofollow issue" are nothing to do
with Wikipedia or our readers; they are largely a third party (SEOs)
wanting to get in good with a fourth party (Google), or they're
conspiracy-theorising nutters (Wikipedia Review). In either case,
paying attention does very little to write an encyclopedia.


- d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia slags off Palmerston North

[Charles Matthews]

Steve Bennett wrote:
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/2516472/Wikipedia-entries-slag-off-Palmerston-North
>
> Maybe I'm getting old and jaded, but when I read that the local
> council altered the Wikipedia article about their city to be more
> favourable, my reaction was "oh, good, that was the right thing to
> do". Heh.
>   
You meant "neutral" of course ...

Charles


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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia slags off Palmerston North

[Steve Bennett]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:
> The "Wikipedia could not be reached for comment." bit? That seems odd
> to me, I wonder who they tried to contact...

Yeah. We actually do have processes for that. Without too much
difficulty I reached http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Contact_us
and thus http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Press_room . I guess they
tried press@ and didn't get a response in time. I guess.

Steve

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia slags off Palmerston North

[Thomas Dalton]

2009/6/26 Steve Bennett :
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/2516472/Wikipedia-entries-slag-off-Palmerston-North
>
> Maybe I'm getting old and jaded, but when I read that the local
> council altered the Wikipedia article about their city to be more
> favourable, my reaction was "oh, good, that was the right thing to
> do". Heh.
>
> I also particularly like the final line of the article.

The "Wikipedia could not be reached for comment." bit? That seems odd
to me, I wonder who they tried to contact...

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia slags off Palmerston North

[Carcharoth]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 1:00 PM, Steve Bennett wrote:
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/2516472/Wikipedia-entries-slag-off-Palmerston-North
>
> Maybe I'm getting old and jaded, but when I read that the local
> council altered the Wikipedia article about their city to be more
> favourable, my reaction was "oh, good, that was the right thing to
> do". Heh.
>
> I also particularly like the final line of the article.

Worth quoting here:

"Wikipedia could not be reached for comment."

Carcharoth

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[WikiEN-l] Wikipedia slags off Palmerston North

[Steve Bennett]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/2516472/Wikipedia-entries-slag-off-Palmerston-North

Maybe I'm getting old and jaded, but when I read that the local
council altered the Wikipedia article about their city to be more
favourable, my reaction was "oh, good, that was the right thing to
do". Heh.

I also particularly like the final line of the article.

Steve

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Social ideas (was Hi there)

[Steve Bennett]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 12:56 AM, Isabell Long wrote:
> I don't use it much either and I didn't in the beginning.  It's not
> very visible to me using the Monobook skin and I only glance at it
> once or twice when I'm browsing, nothing more than that really unless
> I want to seek something out and find other things available.

I use it relatively frequently these days, like once a week maybe.
When I'm bored, and nothing in my contribs list or stubs that I've
created needs any attention, I'll check out the list of tasks. I find
merging strangely satisfying, and usefully time consuming (eg 10-15
mins per merge).

Boy the Wikipedia GUI could be a lot better, but small tweaks aren't
going to do much. I assume the various studies about its usability are
intended to drive some new GUI effort.

Steve

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Nofollow and sister projects

[Charles Matthews]

Seth Finkelstein wrote:
>> Andrew Gray
>> (This has caused much elaborate conspiracy theory in the past
>> revolving around nofollow and "favoured" Wikia links, etc)
>> 
>
>   Well, in defense of critics, I think it's important to
> acknowledge that there are many aspects of the situation which
> certainly *look* suspicious. And the tendency of *some* (not all, but
> *some*) Wikipedia people to react by making name-calling personal
> attacks, along with longstanding antagonism against SEO's, doesn't
> help. It pretty much makes a mockery of the idea of "civility".
>   
OK. we still believe pretty much in "assuming good faith", which results 
in a deprecation of systematic suspicion of the motives of people who 
are trying to develop the site.
>   I've investigated the "nofollow" issue, and come to the
> conclusion that there's less there than meets the eye. 
Fine.
> But I certainly
> do understand where the harsh criticism of Wikipedia comes from. For
> example, speaking as a journalist, I've never been able to get a
> straight answer as to who was ultimately responsible for changing the
> "nofollow" policy. There are conflicting public accounts from the
> people involved. Moreover, the most obvious interpretation of that
> discrepancy is very negative. Now, I'm not saying I believe that very
> negative interpretation; for several reasons I think it's incorrect.
> HOWEVER, I wouldn't say someone who did take a cynical view was being
> irrational.
>   
Fine. So "assume good faith" is not the de facto standard on the 
Internet.  "Assume convoluted conspiracy" is closer to being the de 
facto standard on some forums, to put it bluntly. The reason AGF is a 
good idea for WP is that we have work to do; we can usefully leave it to 
others, less concerned with free content, to type endlessly about things 
about which they are at best half-informed. The "nofollow policy" was 
standard on wikipedias other than the English for a long time without 
anyone kicking up a fuss. Eventually enWP was getting so much spam that 
the spam patrol started lobbying for enWP to get in line with the rest. 
Jimmy Wales certainly promoted the change, but in the end we have to let 
the devs handle the issue when it is this technical (and they are not 
accountable to me, or you). (My recollection, this is.) This is also a 
good idea because we have work to do.

Charles



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Re: [WikiEN-l] Nofollow and sister projects

[Seth Finkelstein]

> Andrew Gray
> (This has caused much elaborate conspiracy theory in the past
> revolving around nofollow and "favoured" Wikia links, etc)

Well, in defense of critics, I think it's important to
acknowledge that there are many aspects of the situation which
certainly *look* suspicious. And the tendency of *some* (not all, but
*some*) Wikipedia people to react by making name-calling personal
attacks, along with longstanding antagonism against SEO's, doesn't
help. It pretty much makes a mockery of the idea of "civility".

I've investigated the "nofollow" issue, and come to the
conclusion that there's less there than meets the eye. But I certainly
do understand where the harsh criticism of Wikipedia comes from. For
example, speaking as a journalist, I've never been able to get a
straight answer as to who was ultimately responsible for changing the
"nofollow" policy. There are conflicting public accounts from the
people involved. Moreover, the most obvious interpretation of that
discrepancy is very negative. Now, I'm not saying I believe that very
negative interpretation; for several reasons I think it's incorrect.
HOWEVER, I wouldn't say someone who did take a cynical view was being
irrational.

Pre-emptive rebuttal: At this point, someone usually rushes to
explain to me that the nofollow exemption applies to all wikis on the
interwiki map. I know that. But then they argue that aspect refutes any
implication of favoritism from Wikipedia to Wikia, Inc. I don't agree
with that. There's a kind of favoritism which come not from outright
discrimination in the application of rules, but needing to know the
right people and make the right requests in order to get a benefit.
When you have the co-founder of a venture capital funded commercial
start-up being highly involved with policy changes on a top-ten
website that affect all such start-ups, it's really quite reasonable
to examine the situation very carefully.

Pre-emptive rebuttal: It's legal. I know. That's not the point.

-- 
Seth Finkelstein  Consulting Programmer
Web site - http://sethf.com/
Infothought blog - http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/

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