Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On 17 January 2011 04:03, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: Then, in 2010, he posts to Talk:Jimmy Wales that I was born on the 7th of August, according to my mother. My legal paperwork all says 8th of August, due to an error on my birth certificate. (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?User_talk:Jimbo_Walesdiff=prevoldid=399961785) The point being that trusting Jimmy Wales when it comes to seemingly trivial matters is not a good idea, because Jimmy Wales lies about seemingly trivial matters. And putting unsubstantiated statements made by Jimmy Wales into a Wikipedia article, without properly attributing them to him, is also a mistake, for the same reason. Jimmy taking his birthdate as that which his mother tells him rather than that which is on his birth certificate doesn't sound like a lie to me. A lie is saying something that you know to be untrue, this is simply a disagreement regarding what is true. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On 17 January 2011 00:50, wiki doc.wikipe...@ntlworld.com wrote: I don't think it helps to characterise any simple questioning of the leader as a deranged vendetta. Correction: Jimmy is our founder, he is not our leader. We don't have a leader. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
on 1/17/11 7:30 AM, Thomas Dalton at thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 January 2011 00:50, wiki doc.wikipe...@ntlworld.com wrote: I don't think it helps to characterise any simple questioning of the leader as a deranged vendetta. Correction: Jimmy is our founder, he is not our leader. We don't have a leader. And that is why a culture of survival of the fittest, not the brightest, prevails. Marc Riddell ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: Jimmy taking his birthdate as that which his mother tells him rather than that which is on his birth certificate doesn't sound like a lie to me. A lie is saying something that you know to be untrue, this is simply a disagreement regarding what is true. Assuming his *latest* story is the truth (and it seems to be), the lies would be when he told the reporter that August 7 was incorrect, when he told Encyclopedia Britannica that August 7 was incorrect, when he told the reporter that Wikipedia got the date from Britannica, and when he referenced the reporters story on his blog saying for the first time the world has a proper source. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 2:36 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 January 2011 04:03, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: Or, if you need the whole story: I think you've just proven Tony's point. Glad to be of service. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: Jimmy taking his birthdate as that which his mother tells him rather than that which is on his birth certificate doesn't sound like a lie to me. A lie is saying something that you know to be untrue, this is simply a disagreement regarding what is true. Assuming his *latest* story is the truth (and it seems to be), the lies would be when he told the reporter that August 7 was incorrect, when he told Encyclopedia Britannica that August 7 was incorrect, when he told the reporter that Wikipedia got the date from Britannica, and when he referenced the reporters story on his blog saying for the first time the world has a proper source. It sounds to me more like he didn't know the truth himself, and his mother later told him what the source of the confusion was. No need to accuse anyone of lying, as far as I can see. Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 11:10 AM, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: Jimmy taking his birthdate as that which his mother tells him rather than that which is on his birth certificate doesn't sound like a lie to me. A lie is saying something that you know to be untrue, this is simply a disagreement regarding what is true. Assuming his *latest* story is the truth (and it seems to be), the lies would be when he told the reporter that August 7 was incorrect, when he told Encyclopedia Britannica that August 7 was incorrect, when he told the reporter that Wikipedia got the date from Britannica, and when he referenced the reporters story on his blog saying for the first time the world has a proper source. It sounds to me more like he didn't know the truth himself, and his mother later told him what the source of the confusion was. No need to accuse anyone of lying, as far as I can see. No, he made a comment similar to the one he made in 2010, in 2004, which he later had oversighted, to try to cover up his later lies. --- My actual birthday is August 7th, 1966. This is unverifiable information, I'm sorry to say, since my driver's license and passport say August 8. If we must revert on that basis, then I guess we must... Maybe I'll have to upload a signed note from my mom as documentary evidence; the only proof that I have is her sayso. --- That's what he said September 18, 2004. So no, this wasn't an honest mistake (which still would be reason not to trust what he says). And it wasn't even just Wales being misleading, as he so often does. This was an intentional lie. So I don't trust what he says about the first edit to Wikipedia. It may be true. It may not be true. We'll probably never know. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On 17 January 2011 16:55, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: That's what he said September 18, 2004. So no, this wasn't an honest mistake (which still would be reason not to trust what he says). And it wasn't even just Wales being misleading, as he so often does. This was an intentional lie. If he was intentionally lying, he must have had a motive. What motive could he possibly have for lying about his age by a day? Do you think he was just doing it to be annoying? Jimmy has plenty of faults (we all do), but being annoying for the sake of it isn't one of them in my experience. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: On 17 January 2011 16:55, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: That's what he said September 18, 2004. So no, this wasn't an honest mistake (which still would be reason not to trust what he says). And it wasn't even just Wales being misleading, as he so often does. This was an intentional lie. If he was intentionally lying, he must have had a motive. What motive could he possibly have for lying about his age by a day? He was definitely intentionally lying, either in 2004 and 2010, or in 2007. So there is no if, and that means he must have had a motive. However, I don't see the point in speculating over what that motive was, as we don't even know for sure which of the times he was lying. Do you think he was just doing it to be annoying? No. Jimmy has plenty of faults (we all do), but being annoying for the sake of it isn't one of them in my experience. Not mine either. So why do you bring it up? ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
As a Queensland schoolboy, I watched the Apollo 11 landing on 21 July 1969, received through Australia's radio telescopes at Parkes and Honeysuckle Creek, while at the same instant it was late on 20 July 1969 for the American audience basking in a glow of rightful pride. Perhaps Jimmy was playing some similar game - the same moment in time can belong to two different dates. -- Peter in Canberra ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
I don't think it helps to characterise any simple questioning of the leader as a deranged vendetta. Are you suggesting all criticism is a mark of either hatred or insanity - or both? That line of defending leaders against criticism has a somewhat unsavoury history. What happened here is that someone noted that the archives that have emerged didn't record Jimmy's hello world as the fist edit. That type of attention to detail is hardly surprising when Wikipedians are so keen to document their own history, and culturally sensitive to looking for verification of any claims. Now, it is quite possible that the archives omit hello world because they are incomplete. It is also possible (as I suggested) that the story may be more pictorial than literal: Jimmy began the thing: once Wikipedia was not, then Jimmy said hello to the world. To that degree it is a useful myth whose literal accuracy (or our ability to verify such) may be thought irrelevant. It is, of course, quite proper to say it doesn't matter. However, in that case it neither matters to denounce Jimmy (even if he were misremembering) nor to defend him (even if he were literally correct about his edits). Those who don't care, don't want to know. Anyone who does care, probably will never know anyway. Scott Oh, I use 'myth' in the technical sense - not in the untruth sense - but therein lies another whole debate. -Original Message- From: wikien-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikien-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Tony Sidaway Sent: 16 January 2011 23:27 To: English Wikipedia Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?) Does every thread referring to Jimmy Wales really have to become a venue for some deranged vendetta? How does this help us to write an encyclopedia? ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 11:50 AM, wiki doc.wikipe...@ntlworld.com wrote: I don't think it helps to characterise any simple questioning of the leader as a deranged vendetta. I thought Tony was merely engaging in some gentle self-criticism. -- Peter in Canberra ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
And for the avoidance of doubt, I was referring to Anthony's decision to drag in a reference to pointless blog discussion thread about Jimmy Wales' birth date. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 8:32 PM, Tony Sidaway tonysida...@gmail.com wrote: And for the avoidance of doubt, I was referring to Anthony's decision to drag in a reference to pointless blog discussion thread about Jimmy Wales' birth date. I guess one person's pointless blog discussion thread is another person's proper source. (http://blog.jimmywales.com/2007/08/08/my-birthdate/) ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 9:50 PM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 8:32 PM, Tony Sidaway tonysida...@gmail.com wrote: And for the avoidance of doubt, I was referring to Anthony's decision to drag in a reference to pointless blog discussion thread about Jimmy Wales' birth date. I guess one person's pointless blog discussion thread is another person's proper source. (http://blog.jimmywales.com/2007/08/08/my-birthdate/) Or, if you need the whole story: In 2004 Wales says his birthdate is August 7 (http://wikimediafoundation.org/w/index.php?title=Board_of_Trusteesdiff=prevoldid=406). In 2006 he posts a message to Talk:Jimmy Wales asking for changes to be made to his article, stating among other things, that My date of birth is not August 8, 1966. (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jimmy_Walesdiff=63246911oldid=63223187). Then, in 2007 he tells a reporter that the Wikipedia given date of August 7 is incorrect, that They [Wikipedia] got it from (Encyclopedia) Britannica, and Britannica got it wrong. (http://blog.oregonlive.com/siliconforest/2007/07/on_wikipedia_and_its_founders.html) He then posts to his blog that for the first time the world has a proper source, linking to that reporters blog. (http://blog.jimmywales.com/2007/08/08/my-birthdate/) Then, in 2010, he posts to Talk:Jimmy Wales that I was born on the 7th of August, according to my mother. My legal paperwork all says 8th of August, due to an error on my birth certificate. (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?User_talk:Jimbo_Walesdiff=prevoldid=399961785) The point being that trusting Jimmy Wales when it comes to seemingly trivial matters is not a good idea, because Jimmy Wales lies about seemingly trivial matters. And putting unsubstantiated statements made by Jimmy Wales into a Wikipedia article, without properly attributing them to him, is also a mistake, for the same reason. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On 17 January 2011 04:03, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: Or, if you need the whole story: I think you've just proven Tony's point. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
So Jimmy's claim that the first edit was Hello world! isn't to be taken
literally?
It is simply a totem. If you want to be cruel you call it a sound-bite which
takes liberty with reality, if you want to be kind you call it a
foundation-myth which serves to encapsulate the ethos and meaning of
Wikipedia, rather than to record boring history
In any case, it looks like it will eternally be {{citation needed}} - maybe
like all the best foundation myths. Believers will revere its wisdom and
profundity, unbelievers will call it a lie and deception.
Wikipedia becomes more like religion every day.
Scott
___
WikiEN-l mailing list
WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
'So Jimmy's claim that the first edit was Hello world! isn't to be taken literally?' I don't see why not. It's far from unusual for a tech-savvy user to type that phrase into a document as a first test. I would be surprised if anyone expressed a good reason to doubt it. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On 14 January 2011 12:01, Tony Sidaway tonysida...@gmail.com wrote: 'So Jimmy's claim that the first edit was Hello world! isn't to be taken literally?' I don't see why not. It's far from unusual for a tech-savvy user to type that phrase into a document as a first test. I would be surprised if anyone expressed a good reason to doubt it. Indeed. Jimmy says he did it. It's a very plausible claim. There is no evidence against it. Therefore, I suggest we assume Jimmy is being accurate. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: On 14 January 2011 12:01, Tony Sidaway tonysida...@gmail.com wrote: 'So Jimmy's claim that the first edit was Hello world! isn't to be taken literally?' I don't see why not. It's far from unusual for a tech-savvy user to type that phrase into a document as a first test. I would be surprised if anyone expressed a good reason to doubt it. Indeed. Jimmy says he did it. It's a very plausible claim. There is no evidence against it. Therefore, I suggest we assume Jimmy is being accurate. One possibility, though, is that he typed it at some point, but there was an earlier edit he forgot. Memory can be a selective thing. What you would look for, if going further into this, is the first time he recalled this and where and to whom. Ultimately, though, it is not a critical piece of information. Just a nice bit of trivia, and a nice story. BTW, Jimmy's speech last night was very nice. Have there been any reports yet about that event? Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On 14 January 2011 12:25, Carcharoth carcharot...@googlemail.com wrote: One possibility, though, is that he typed it at some point, but there was an earlier edit he forgot. Memory can be a selective thing. What you would look for, if going further into this, is the first time he recalled this and where and to whom. Ultimately, though, it is not a critical piece of information. Just a nice bit of trivia, and a nice story. Sure, Jimmy is certainly capable of making mistakes, but unless there is evidence to suggest that he did it seems sensible to me to assume that he is correct. As you say, it's not a critical piece of information so we don't need to try and verify the story. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On Friday, January 14, 2011, Thomas Dalton wrote: Sure, Jimmy is certainly capable of making mistakes, but unless there is evidence to suggest that he did it seems sensible to me to assume that he is correct. As you say, it's not a critical piece of information so we don't need to try and verify the story. The first edit to Wikipedia is something I think merits verifying. I'll ask Wales. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 7:13 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: On 14 January 2011 12:01, Tony Sidaway tonysida...@gmail.com wrote: 'So Jimmy's claim that the first edit was Hello world! isn't to be taken literally?' I don't see why not. It's far from unusual for a tech-savvy user to type that phrase into a document as a first test. I would be surprised if anyone expressed a good reason to doubt it. Indeed. Jimmy says he did it. It's a very plausible claim. There is no evidence against it. Therefore, I suggest we assume Jimmy is being accurate. Except that he doesn't say what it is he did, and that there is evidence against it. I'd assume nothing in this case. It may have happened. It may not have happened. As you say, it's not a critical piece of information so we don't need to try and verify the story. At the same time, we shouldn't be repeating it as though it is a verified fact. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:10 PM, wiki doc.wikipe...@ntlworld.com wrote: Wikipedia becomes more like religion every day. With a God-King in a cloud realm and the occasional crucifixion. Not to mention passing the plate on a regular basis. I think it is important that we don't develop the same sort of hierarchy and mentality of the established faiths. After all, they have a successful business model, with holy writ handed down from on high. Wikipedia began by reversing the flow, and I think that for the internet age, we've got a grand tradition, where anyone can jump in and add their two bits. Jesus said Blessed are the meek, and here we are, where the masses have handcrafted a grand cathedral of knowledge. In the Beginning God said, Hello World!. One person likes this. -- Peter in Canberra ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 6:57 PM, Tony Sidaway tonysida...@gmail.com wrote: I remember that in 1992 I was stung by a wasp near the end of a day in York. I would happily take you to the precise location outside York station, I said fuck. There is absolutely no documentation for this. It happened. My own first experiments with a wiki, in 2002 or thereabouts, are not recorded either, but they led to my involvement here. There has to be a point at which we admit that assuming good faith might work, and in trivial matters like this surely it wouldn't be a bad idea. If it's trivial, then it's adequate to say nothing about it. Wales doesn't exactly have a track record of telling the whole truth about himself (See http://blog.oregonlive.com/siliconforest/2007/07/on_wikipedia_and_its_founders.html). ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
[WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
‘I clicked on “Edit” and I wrote “Hello World” and that was the beginning.’ That's a great soundbite. I know it's just a standard term used in testing a new program, but I prefer to take Hello world as the motto of Wikipedia. Everything we know about the world, presented in a form the entire world can read and extend. It's an Incredibly ambitious project--ten years ago it was plainly nuts. But look how far we've come towards that goal! Hello world! ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Hello world! (was Hello world?)
+1 to that. Motto of Wikipedia indeed. :) On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 11:23 PM, Tony Sidaway tonysida...@gmail.comwrote: ‘I clicked on “Edit” and I wrote “Hello World” and that was the beginning.’ That's a great soundbite. I know it's just a standard term used in testing a new program, but I prefer to take Hello world as the motto of Wikipedia. Everything we know about the world, presented in a form the entire world can read and extend. It's an Incredibly ambitious project--ten years ago it was plainly nuts. But look how far we've come towards that goal! Hello world! ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
